Started? You realize that vehicles have *always* been able to fit more than one hardener, right?

Mary, I'm not trying to imply anything (that's a lie, just so you know) but your posts seem very reminiscent of the posts of someone else during the period between 1.7 and Hotfix Alpha.

How many times do I need to open people's eyes?

And when you say "us" you're also talking about me. Been using HAVs since closed beta, I know very well how they work, and use them to this day. And I'm telling you that I've been running the dual hardener, dual rep fit and I can tell you that it's stupid easy to play as, and I've yet to die in that fit. While that is anecdotal, the math also supports that the fit is simply too effective.

Is it possible to kill to kill that fit? Yes. But the conditions needed to make that happen are far too specific for it to be considered balanced. The fact remains that active reps have existed in the past and the gameplay itself was far more balanced at the time. And as Juno brought up, active reps cycled every 3 seconds instead of every 1 second like they current do.

But I guess setting up traps, getting the high ground, and working as a team to take down a 1.4 mil ISK vehicle with millions upon millions of SP invested is just too hard. They must be able to OHKO tanks with any random MLT AV fit they have SOLO with little to no thought. They want tanks to be relegated to having even less purpose than they have now, and they want all Vehicle people bankrupt from the constant losses. They want to force more tankers into the redline with little payout and high risk even after the years of SP investment. This Call of Duty 514 and the infantry will not be satisfied til vehicles are removed to free up infantry assets.

But the problem is, if he wants to keep perma-hardener, he can only keep one up at a time, with long cool downs. If he pops both of them, he WILL have periods of vulnerability. But with ONE hardener up, again, HIGH Alpha AV is the way to counter them. Don't bring slow swarms, bring Proto Assault Forge Gun, bring Lai Dai Grenades, and lay traps upon the ground. Most of those super repper/ hardener tanks do NOT run scans, so clump of Proximities will send them to hell in a fiery blaze of glory.

Does NOBODY here run with a team tank? Does NOBODY here have buddies with AFGs?

These super repping tanks go down easy when you bully rush them and have buddies hop out and Lai Dai them as you pound.

Because I wanted your personal opinion on why you felt they were better? Because I asked for your detailed feedback?

I was trying to have an interest in your point of view. I knew they were better back then, we actually AGREE ON THAT, but because I disagree with you on other things you immediately try to twist the meaning of a question I presented to you in an attempt to discredit my experience even though most of the tanking community turns and laughs at you for your extreme and often baseless claims. Get over yourself kiddo.

Yes, because the only way AV should be effective is when tanks mistakenly wander into a trap.

Luck should be the only skill AV are required to have, and anything else they should be impotent.

FYI Mary, the fact that Spkr is the only one that supports you should tell you how untenable your arguments are.

As fair as a guy in a militia suit taking down another in a proto suit. It happens, people get over it.

For the umpteenth time: when that PRO suit is caught completely unaware, ie at a depot, AFK looking at the map, BPO scout suit/shotgun. Otherwise if the person using the PRO suit isn't completely drunk/high or a dog, they should easily be able to take out that MLT suit.

The point is our ISK and SP investment doesn't or at the very least shouldn't guarantee a damn thing.

[

Hate to tell you, but a month of constant PC is not that impressive, nor uncommon. I've done stints of 10+ battles a day for over a month, it's not a big deal which is why I don't whip out my ePeen and brag about it.

That's what I did. Around 10, not considering re-ups. Your all-time kills don't reflect that.

And the reason it shouldn't be as you say is because never should the counter to something be itself.

That's not an explanation to the question "why shouldn't tanks counter tanks."

This isn't world of tanks, vehicles are not supposed to operate in a vacuum.

I never said it was World of Tanks, I never said I wanted it to be World of Tanks. All I see of you people is "Oh, you want the game to be like World of Tanks, don't you."

They're supposed to fight and deal with multiple aspects of the game, vehicles and infantry included.

I have the experience to deal with multiple threats.

Otherwise if infantry AV is supposed to be "only a deterrent" to vehicles, then should turrets be "only a deterrent" to infantry?

It's a tank, it should roll over infantry (nerfed because infantry don't like physics in motion) and beat the hell out of each other. We leave infantry alone to fight each other, where's the problem with that?

Or do you feel you should be able to mostly ignore infantry but be able to easily kill both them and vehicles with an HAV?

I can choose to leave infantry alone to take on a tank. If there's no tank around, I kill infantry. Since I'm a pilot, that's what I like and that's what I do, I can usually kill both with ease. I've been around since closed beta, and have never seen you in a game. Same goes with Breakin. Every time I see a thread about "the old days," his name is never included. Doc DDD, The-Beard, yes. Probably a ton more that there's no way I'll be able to remember.

Vehicles should be powerful, sure, but to me it seems like you want to be able to basically ignore infantry completely.

Like I said above, I can choose to ignore infantry to take on enemy tanks, and I do pretty well at that. Fact is, the better days are behind us, where I can ignore AV to take on a red tank. Now, a packed Lai Dai does ~1800 against unhardened armor. I'm sure you think that's fair and all. Yet we're able to (well, were able to) aim with a blaster, and they were nerfed as a result of our aim. Yes, I want to ignore infantry so I can take on other tanks. Your argument is "I put numbers on paper and they work because I say so," yet I actually have experience playing the game in a tank for a year and a half, and I'm wrong because I won't compromise on vehicles along with pointing out bad ideas and not having any qualms about that. Lovely arguments you guys have.

this has been the core argument made by every post spkr, Takahiro and sedillo have made to date.

Math on spreadsheets =/= gameplay. Play the game to find out.

It is mathematically impossible for an IAFG to break a double-hahardened, double rep tank.

Player's choice to use both at the same time. Nobody is forcing them to. If you happen to come across one, that is, if you play the game, well, that's just too bad, that you can't solo a tank. Maybe you should, I dunno, use something better than the BPO Gallente heavy?

Even if you nerf the hardeners to 30% shot 9 with an IAFG lands 50% of armor damage to reload. 7 seconds of reload,charge and refire delay means an HAV reps 1340 damage. More than enough to bring it to full armor.

Yes, more math, because the game is a completely controlled environment, like a bio-lab, and no calculation is ever wrong.

An IAFG has a lifespan of roughly 63 seconds of constant fire on a tank. If it engages with hardeners for 30 seconds and retreats to cover in the last 10 it cannot be killed with an IAFG. The forge gunner wastes 50% of his ammo trying.

So it's not fair that a vehicle can take cover. Got it.

2 IAFG can make an HAV think about his options while they are reloading.

We've said before to cycle shooters. Constant damage = dead tank. That is, if you can aim. You achieve aim by........ actually playing, rather than putting numbers on paper.

Every time someone mentions AV and balance with HAVs the impression I get is that the three aforementioned posters start thinking "Damn them crops sure are getting uppity about harvest day."

Dunno how the others feel about it, but I'm uncomfortable with living in your mind rent-free. Would you please stop thinking about me so much? I don't swing that way, and my ears already ring enough, due to too much loud music and ear problems. (I bet you'll make some stupid joke about me having been born with mild hearing problems)

The whole tank v tank honor duel is a myth. The whole idea that you're just there to fight other tanks is a lie.

You'd know it if you played the game in a tank.

How do I know this?

You don't know it.

Because if it was true you'd recall the HAVs as soon as it was evident the enemy wasn't fielding any in response.

As if infantry would trade in their 150k ISK PRO suits when they see the other team can field no better than ADV. Oh, that random guy in the back with a Thale's doesn't count on the team with ADV gear.

See how well that works out.

"Wait, we don't have any PRO! Please, I beg you, don't use your PRO against us!"

What I see is an asston of madrugars rushing into hotspots, blazing away with impunity with dispersion mods, farming infantry, and rushing away before the cooldown on the hardeners hits.

You have to play to actually see that.

With impunity.

AV grenades say otherwise. ~1800 each on unhardened armor is a huge kick in the rear, if not an outright death. You'd know that if......... you played the game.

This isn't balance.

Of course it's not balance, because people that don't use tanks complain that they're sooo easy to use, as well as people that think math and math alone on paper can fix all the game's problems when it comes to vehicles. If a test server was opened to us a long time ago, maybe things would've worked out differently.

Stacking multiple Passive reps doesn't break madrugar balance.

That was nerfed pretty hard in 1.8.

The ability to stack two hardeners doesn't break madrugar balance.

At least we have hardeners that work and the fitting capability to put not one, but two on a tank at the same time. Two hardeners for you, two hardeners for you, two hardeners for everybody!

The ability to do both does

Sandbox

Amarr assault and sentinel can put all plates in the lows and all damage mods in the highs. It's not idea, but it can be done. Why is there a sandbox for infantry, but you try to throw all the sand out of our box at every opportunity? You say we can't have what we want because it's not balanced, yet say you should have everything you want and that that is balanced.

The only ways to balance both so there are more options to fight madrugars than other madrugars is a nerf to the hardeners by 10%, OR to cut passive reps in HALF, OR make heavy armor reps active-only.

Ah yeah, another call for another nerf to vehicles. Maybe they should just be removed entirely, LAV, dropships and tanks and finally you can achieve Call of Duty in Space.

In all three of these scenarios armor plates become superior options with single hardener single rep unless you are specifically setting up a skirmish build for hit and run.

We plan ahead, that's so OP. Sorry, but not really sorry I sometimes use an all-purpose fit. I forgot I was supposed to play the game by your rules.

And revert the shield fitting nerfs.

Wow, I actually agree with you on something. Maybe it'll snow in August.

And once again, spkr contributes no evidence, no meaningful input.

As if I have access to your IP, your machine, etc. You type as if on the sidelines, merely commentating about things, rather than getting into detail of "when my team was making our run for the championship..." It's nothing but trash.

Merely anecdote and how he thinks it should work.

Of course I know how it works, because I've been doing it for a year and a half straight.

Because he doesn't need experience.

See above

Rather than contributing meaningfully to the cause of making HAV play fun and meaningful fir all,

I'm trying to keep tanking as a main playstyle alive, guys like you want to kill it and bury it. When people like you and Pokey, who obviously have no experience with tanks dictate how things will, not should go, that's not fun.

his message has been that it's unfair if any infantry can kill a tank ever.

Where have I said I want AV removed? Where have I said I want AV to be useless? I do however say that I want AV to be a deterrent, and a deterrent is not a useless thing. Why are you making baseless claims about things I've never said?

He's flat out said this in the past and I know where those archives are kept.

I have not, and if you save screen shots and links on to your computer about these forums, then that makes me uncomfortable, and please stop letting me live in your mind rent free.

and yet claims it should be possible to kill an HAV with AV while claiming that the pre-buff minimum engagement time of 22 or more seconds ( this really was the minimum) was unfair.

More math that works fine on paper, yet gets shred to particles in the game.

and when presented with evidence to the contrary he has NEVER acknowledged anything but his own ridiculous statements that have nothing to back them.

What evidence? Were you here when pilots used math to show the insane damage AV would do, and how fast? About how the Duvolle TAR was on par with a large blaster before the TARs were rightfully nerfed? Were you here when most of the playerbase were crying about the necessary nerfs to a suit and weapons, about how they were proclaiming that it was the end of the game if CCP went through with those nerfs? Because I was here, and I remember laughing at them thinking a couple of things (that did rightfully need to be nerfed) getting nerfed would be the end of the game.

But I will acknowledge one thing spkr. Youve had a good run. It's going to take someone truly magical to beat your troling of the forums. Everyone else buys it but you are the single-most successful troll in DUST history.

12/10.

The bar has been set. Let's see if anyone else can match this feat.

Prof. 4 IAFG won't do anything to a tank with it's hardeners on and the DPS is no better than swarms.

My experience says otherwise.

Proxy mines depend on a tank going exactly where you want, when you want.

Takes experience to make that happen. I guess you just don't have enough.

I see almost no kills with proxies.

That's because they require proper and ideal placement.

Proto AV grenades will not dent armor when hardened. Many times I've snuck up on a tank, fire a swarm salvo, hit it with three Lai Dai's, then followed with two more swarms and it just sits there repping right through it.

My experience say otherwise.

the players.

More specifically and hilariously. very few people hate HAVs.

Just about everyone hates the drivers though. I wonder why.

All these reasonable people from multiple in game backgrounds that are making logical arguments

I was on the MAG forums quite a lot. Other than that, I started gaming online back when AOL was the major internet provider, before any form of broadband internet really caught on. Starship Troopers Online and Silent Death Online, precursors to EVE. Then there was glorious SOCOM, and after that, nothing was difficult anymore, due to children wanting instant gratification. Dunno what you're trying to say with "reasonable people from multiple in game backgrounds." Sounds to me you're trying to imply that Dust 514 is my first online game. I've been gaming online for more than 15 years.

that contradict yours,

Only because they can't see it from the point of view of a pilot.

and at least one developer who has said your arguments hold no water,

Simply because I won't bend over, and that I break down bad ideas, explaining why they're bad. Seems a favorite word to throw around is "anecdotal." Pilots agree with me because they've been there done that for longer than I have in many cases. The only ones that don't agree with me are those that aren't pilots.

are the problem, but you sir, you alone are the wise one.

One man against the world..............

Your ego and lack of logic are right up there with KTB. Dare I say, they are even larger.

I started tanking back when a Soma could 3-shot a Marauder. I've survived those hits a few times and gone after those guys. I learned from Takahiro, and picked it up pretty quickly including forcing myself to use a keyboard to drive, and not zooming in.

Dunno where this "lack of logic" comes from.

Also don't know who KTB is.

Almost doesn't sound like a guarantee to me.

wow,wow,wow, although I got pro swaems,
I AM A TANKER WITH ALL 3 PROTO TURRETS ALSO A ADS POLITE, I started this post just because I got distroyed by a soma just because my stupid can't catch up its rep speed while my tank only got one armor rep, hardener and extander.
refer to ur post I am not QQing just asking a question, also not asking to nerf tanks.
But, I agree ur opinion about shield tanks, in my opinion, it got unreasonably less total health(armor tank got 1200shield,2/5of ahield tank, while shield got1/4 armor.etc.)
Also, almost 0 degree aiming downward which make no sence for a tank, not understanding why
and, health Regan of 2 scouts(shield of course)
Also unbalance of two kind of hardeners,(CD and active time)
one last thing, why missile must be the worst turret since open beta?