| Pages: 1 2 [3] :: one page |
|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
1931
   |
Posted - 2015.04.13 13:45:00 -
[61] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:
It's very simple. dual hardened, dual repped madrugars drop a IAFG into negative damage inflicted after shot 4. I.E. a constant firing IAFG will never break a madrugar past 80% armor, and weakspot hits won't kill a madrugar before reload. The math renders it physically impossible. A max-skill, double-repped Proto rep madrugar will regen armor at a leisurely 335 damage per second. An IAFG caps out at... I'll go over and say 2200 (actually higher than they can go).
with two hardeners you are mitigating a little over 60% damage. This brings the IAFG at highest potential to...
860 damage (I'm still erring on giving the IAFG more damage than it actually does. Now pay attention)
In the three seconds it takes to fire a IAFG shell, the Madrugar will repair 670 damage out of 860 from the first shell. that's less than 200 net damage.
DOES ANYONE ELSE SEE A FKING PROBLEM HERE???
Two IAFGs still cannot output enough damage to kill a current madrugar in 8 shots and it will be above 70% armor (roughly) before they finish reloading.
There is no "learning to attack passive rep tanks" under the current method. It is mathematically IMPOSSIBLE for a solo AV gunner to kill an HAV under ANY CIRCUMSTANCE without abusive mechanics. or doing incredibly stupid sh*t that requires the HAV driver to be goddamn moron.
I do not exaggerate.
The only HAV drivers who die let shots hit their weakspot more than once with hardeners down.
The current madrugar meta is impossible for another player to beat without three to one odds without abusing triple AV nades, and myofibril stacking shenanigans, or a JLAV loaded with ten REs.
.
For starters, Madrugars are not quite right at the moment.
However, it is not as terrible as you let it seem by your examples.
Your math checks out ok (except IAFG fires rounds at 2,25 sec interval)
so I agree in that scenario the Maddie cannot be brought down by single AV. I agree that there should be a theoretical possibility.
But it is for the limited time maximum mode for HAV.
For comparison, list kill times for
- one hardener mode (3shot, kill time 4,5s)
- hardener off mode (2shot, kill time 2,25s)
Note that those are for solo max skill IAFG user hitting consequtive hits.
Those times are short. Really short, which means that is is a considerable gambit to bring out 2rep2hard0plate Maddie on the field. That's again the the math speaking.
- While on cooldowns, the said tank is most likely doing nothing at all.
- Now, there's been a claim that tank user will always be in his redline on cooldowns. Also, an assumption that when tank under enemy influence , it has both hardeners always on.
Neither are reality.
- A tank having a meaningful impact on winning game is operating far and has a long contested trip to safe coodowns. This means that he either spends very little time fighting, or is risking being vulnerable on return. A standard practice for experienced AV infantry is to cover the tank escape route.
- Most importantly: the full hardened mode scenario - and math - ignores the importance of opening volley.
The opening shot on stand by mode Maddie drops him down to 500HP.
Then it gets interesting.
IF the tanker knows his salt, isn't shocked, and has enought reaction and dexterity in his fingers, he manages both hardeners on. Then, the 106 net damage of shots 2, 3 and 4 take him and keep him really low but won't kill him. (personal opinion: 3 or especially 4 consequtive hits is a challenging feat and should have it's rewards)
IF the tanker activates only one hardener (possible in high stress situation or in case of server lag when your client gets the being hit info 1 second late of it actually happening)
The tanker pops on shot 2 in 2,25 seconds, although it is very close, only 50 or so excess damage for leftover.
(personal opinion: there is room for player skill, I like it. Network lag can be a deciding factor on near instaboom, I don't like it.)
- No tanker ever is gonna exit their redline in two hardener mode to find enemies. If they activate only one, then they are not really two hardener tanks. If they save hardeners and keep them off until needed, then they are vulnerable.
In the end, it may have been a mistake to rebuff the armor hardeners 30%-->40% among all other madrugar and tanking changes. Still using double rep double hardener madrugars has it's special risks.
Breakin Stuff wrote:
Stacking multiple Passive reps doesn't break madrugar balance.
The ability to stack two hardeners doesn't break madrugar balance.
The ability to do both does
The only ways to balance both so there are more options to fight madrugars than other madrugars is a nerf to the hardeners by 10%, OR to cut passive reps in HALF, OR make heavy armor reps active-only.
Note: I don't have facts saying that hardeners have stacking penalties. I believe they have.
Third option:
Give hardeners higher than usual stacking penalties (even though the second hardener currently rises the resulting hardening amount from 40% to 60 %).
You had beef with hardener stacking? Address that issue straight fist, then look at more options.
Looking at both sides of the coin.
Even Aurum one.
|
Nothing Certain
Bioshock Rejects
1630
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 15:00:00 -
[62] - Quote
Mary Sedillo wrote:It doesn't matter how many times we tell you our weaknesses, you guys will endlessly push for nerfs so even the dumbest mlt swarm launcher can solo-mode 1.4 mil ISK proto tank.
Prof. 4 IAFG won't do anything to a tank with it's hardeners on and the DPS is no better than swarms. Proxy mines depend on a tank going exactly where you want, when you want. I see almost no kills with proxies. Proto AV grenades will not dent armor when hardened. Many times I've snuck up on a tank, fire a swarm salvo, hit it with three Lai Dai's, then followed with two more swarms and it just sits there repping right through it. It is ridiculous to think that AV doesn't know how to tanks out, it is your tank saving you, not your greater knowledge.
Because, that's why.
|
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
8048
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 15:13:00 -
[63] - Quote
Swarms have the highest AV DPS even when accounting for sustained reload time DPS.
The swarm DPS against shields actually runs higher than the plasma cannon.
It exceeds IAFG DPS by just shy of 100% more than the next fastest weapon.
If a swarm can't solo rip a madrugar with that DPS then an IAFG can't.
This whole thread is an advocacy for HAVs being the best class to play in game.
If the situation stays as is we might as well rebrand the game "WoT future wars: Now with helpless victims included."
AV
|
Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
Negative-Feedback
431
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 16:48:00 -
[64] - Quote
Love that it's the same AV players crying that they can't stand in front of a dual hardened tank and solo it, QQ NERF CUZ MY AV FIT DOESNT EFFORTLESSLY SOLO EVERYTHING.
Then it's the same spreadsheet players saying math trumps gameplay. QQ NERF TANKS
Then theres the same players saying they have never died in a dual rep dual hardened maddy trying to make decisions. QQ I'M OP NERF ME MY KDR IS NEAR INFINITE.
One of the reasons the double hardener double rep Maddies are so prevalent is the fact large rails have been nerfed at least 5 times in a row instead of fixing core issues.
Damage Nerf
Range Nerf
Heat Build up Nerf
Giving 90% more resist to armor hardener Nerf
Basic and Advanced damage mod Nerf
On top of these nerfs, shield tanks have also been nerfed ( because sitting in the redline hiding is supposed to be a 'playstyle' according to armor users). These nerfs include:
Hardener Nerf
Shield fitting Nerf
Shield stacking penalty Nerf
Breaking Shield Booster Nerf
Shield regen rate Nerf
Shield starting armor value Nerf
Missile splash damage nerf
Missile clip size nerf
Missile reload time nerf
How about instead of QQing because your starter fit didn't pop a 100 million sp tank by locking onto it once with swarms we actually fix the counters to this ONE SPECIFIC BUILD OF TANK
Fix Shields
Fix Rails
Fix Missiles
Fix the core problems
or do as per usual and pander to the masses that QQ on the forums for nerfs, as it is easier to cry on the forums than realize what the actual problem is in-game. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
8051
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 16:53:00 -
[65] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:
what the actual problem is in-game.
the players.
More specifically and hilariously. very few people hate HAVs.
Just about everyone hates the drivers though. I wonder why.
AV
|
Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
3168
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 17:12:00 -
[66] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:And once again, spkr contributes no evidence, no meaningful input.
As if I have access to your IP, your machine, etc. You type as if on the sidelines, merely commentating about things, rather than getting into detail of "when my team was making our run for the championship..." It's nothing but trash.
Merely anecdote and how he thinks it should work.
Of course I know how it works, because I've been doing it for a year and a half straight.
Because he doesn't need experience.
See above
Rather than contributing meaningfully to the cause of making HAV play fun and meaningful fir all,
I'm trying to keep tanking as a main playstyle alive, guys like you want to kill it and bury it. When people like you and Pokey, who obviously have no experience with tanks dictate how things will, not should go, that's not fun.
his message has been that it's unfair if any infantry can kill a tank ever.
Where have I said I want AV removed? Where have I said I want AV to be useless? I do however say that I want AV to be a deterrent, and a deterrent is not a useless thing. Why are you making baseless claims about things I've never said?
He's flat out said this in the past and I know where those archives are kept.
I have not, and if you save screen shots and links on to your computer about these forums, then that makes me uncomfortable, and please stop letting me live in your mind rent free.
and yet claims it should be possible to kill an HAV with AV while claiming that the pre-buff minimum engagement time of 22 or more seconds ( this really was the minimum) was unfair.
More math that works fine on paper, yet gets shred to particles in the game.
and when presented with evidence to the contrary he has NEVER acknowledged anything but his own ridiculous statements that have nothing to back them.
What evidence? Were you here when pilots used math to show the insane damage AV would do, and how fast? About how the Duvolle TAR was on par with a large blaster before the TARs were rightfully nerfed? Were you here when most of the playerbase were crying about the necessary nerfs to a suit and weapons, about how they were proclaiming that it was the end of the game if CCP went through with those nerfs? Because I was here, and I remember laughing at them thinking a couple of things (that did rightfully need to be nerfed) getting nerfed would be the end of the game.
But I will acknowledge one thing spkr. Youve had a good run. It's going to take someone truly magical to beat your troling of the forums. Everyone else buys it but you are the single-most successful troll in DUST history.
12/10.
The bar has been set. Let's see if anyone else can match this feat.
You think I'm a troll simply because I won't go along to get along. I don't believe this should be a dictatorship, where people that don't use vehicles decide on the direction that vehicles go in.
Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
|
Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
3168
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 17:20:00 -
[67] - Quote
Nothing Certain wrote:
Prof. 4 IAFG won't do anything to a tank with it's hardeners on and the DPS is no better than swarms.
My experience says otherwise.
Proxy mines depend on a tank going exactly where you want, when you want.
Takes experience to make that happen. I guess you just don't have enough.
I see almost no kills with proxies.
That's because they require proper and ideal placement.
Proto AV grenades will not dent armor when hardened. Many times I've snuck up on a tank, fire a swarm salvo, hit it with three Lai Dai's, then followed with two more swarms and it just sits there repping right through it.
My experience say otherwise.
Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
|
Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
3168
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 17:21:00 -
[68] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Doc DDD wrote:
what the actual problem is in-game.
the players. More specifically and hilariously. very few people hate HAVs. Just about everyone hates the drivers though. I wonder why.
The problem is the forums, not the in-game environment. You don't play, so you wouldn't know.
Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
|
thomas mak
The Nether Dragon
103
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 18:08:00 -
[69] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:Love that it's the same AV players crying that they can't stand in front of a dual hardened tank and solo it, QQ NERF CUZ MY AV FIT DOESNT EFFORTLESSLY SOLO EVERYTHING.
Then it's the same spreadsheet players saying math trumps gameplay. QQ NERF TANKS
Then theres the same players saying they have never died in a dual rep dual hardened maddy trying to make decisions. QQ I'M OP NERF ME MY KDR IS NEAR INFINITE.
One of the reasons the double hardener double rep Maddies are so prevalent is the fact large rails have been nerfed at least 5 times in a row instead of fixing core issues.
Damage Nerf
Range Nerf
Heat Build up Nerf
Giving 90% more resist to armor hardener Nerf
Basic and Advanced damage mod Nerf
On top of these nerfs, shield tanks have also been nerfed ( because sitting in the redline hiding is supposed to be a 'playstyle' according to armor users). These nerfs include:
Hardener Nerf
Shield fitting Nerf
Shield stacking penalty Nerf
Breaking Shield Booster Nerf
Shield regen rate Nerf
Shield starting armor value Nerf
Missile splash damage nerf
Missile clip size nerf
Missile reload time nerf
How about instead of QQing because your starter fit didn't pop a 100 million sp tank by locking onto it once with swarms we actually fix the counters to this ONE SPECIFIC BUILD OF TANK
Fix Shields
Fix Rails
Fix Missiles
Fix the core problems
or do as per usual and pander to the masses that QQ on the forums for nerfs, as it is easier to cry on the forums than realize what the actual problem is in-game.
wow,wow,wow, although I got pro swaems,
I AM A TANKER WITH ALL 3 PROTO TURRETS ALSO A ADS POLITE, I started this post just because I got distroyed by a soma just because my stupid can't catch up its rep speed while my tank only got one armor rep, hardener and extander.
refer to ur post I am not QQing just asking a question, also not asking to nerf tanks.
But, I agree ur opinion about shield tanks, in my opinion, it got unreasonably less total health(armor tank got 1200shield,2/5of ahield tank, while shield got1/4 armor.etc.)
Also, almost 0 degree aiming downward which make no sence for a tank, not understanding why
and, health Regan of 2 scouts(shield of course)
Also unbalance of two kind of hardeners,(CD and active time)
one last thing, why missile must be the worst turret since open beta?
I am a tanker and a pilot
|
Thumb Green
The Valyrian Mercenary Army
2241
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 19:24:00 -
[70] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Thumb Green wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:Thumb Green wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:
Of course using teamwork isn't fair. Of course, someone with a few mil SP into suits and AV combined with a suit totaling 80k ISK should easily be able to take down my 60mil SP 1.3mil ISK tank. That's fair, donchaknow.
As fair as a guy in a militia suit taking down another in a proto suit. It happens, people get over it. For the umpteenth time: when that PRO suit is caught completely unaware, ie at a depot, AFK looking at the map, BPO scout suit/shotgun. Otherwise if the person using the PRO suit isn't completely drunk/high or a dog, they should easily be able to take out that MLT suit. The point is our ISK and SP investment doesn't or at the very least shouldn't guarantee a damn thing. Nor does it. However for the cost of the tool the rewards for using it must be within reason. What is the purpose of a 1,143kk tank existing if its no better or more durable than my basic 291k tank? Hell I'm already likely to be gambling 70-100x more ISK than the next guy playing this game.
But they are arguing that it should. Better off arguing for reducing the cost of the tool because that actually makes sense.
I see blueberries
Rated [TV-MA]
|
|
|
Thumb Green
The Valyrian Mercenary Army
2241
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 19:30:00 -
[71] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:
A (non-BPO) PRO suit backed up by all core infantry skills with any PRO weapon backed up by all its requisite skills does almost guarantee a kill against someone with minimal SP in core skills and weapons.
Almost doesn't sound like a guarantee to me.
I see blueberries
Rated [TV-MA]
|
One Eyed King
Nos Nothi
9359
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 19:35:00 -
[72] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Doc DDD wrote:
what the actual problem is in-game.
the players. More specifically and hilariously. very few people hate HAVs. Just about everyone hates the drivers though. I wonder why. The problem is the forums, not the in-game environment. You don't play, so you wouldn't know.
Yes.
All these reasonable people from multiple in game backgrounds that are making logical arguments that contradict yours, and at least one developer who has said your arguments hold no water, are the problem, but you sir, you alone are the wise one.
Your ego and lack of logic are right up there with KTB. Dare I say, they are even larger.
Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.
Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
|
Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
3170
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 23:21:00 -
[73] - Quote
One Eyed King wrote:
All these reasonable people from multiple in game backgrounds that are making logical arguments
I was on the MAG forums quite a lot. Other than that, I started gaming online back when AOL was the major internet provider, before any form of broadband internet really caught on. Starship Troopers Online and Silent Death Online, precursors to EVE. Then there was glorious SOCOM, and after that, nothing was difficult anymore, due to children wanting instant gratification. Dunno what you're trying to say with "reasonable people from multiple in game backgrounds." Sounds to me you're trying to imply that Dust 514 is my first online game. I've been gaming online for more than 15 years.
that contradict yours,
Only because they can't see it from the point of view of a pilot.
and at least one developer who has said your arguments hold no water,
Simply because I won't bend over, and that I break down bad ideas, explaining why they're bad. Seems a favorite word to throw around is "anecdotal." Pilots agree with me because they've been there done that for longer than I have in many cases. The only ones that don't agree with me are those that aren't pilots.
are the problem, but you sir, you alone are the wise one.
One man against the world..............
Your ego and lack of logic are right up there with KTB. Dare I say, they are even larger.
I started tanking back when a Soma could 3-shot a Marauder. I've survived those hits a few times and gone after those guys. I learned from Takahiro, and picked it up pretty quickly including forcing myself to use a keyboard to drive, and not zooming in.
Dunno where this "lack of logic" comes from.
Also don't know who KTB is.
Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
|
Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
3170
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 23:24:00 -
[74] - Quote
Thumb Green wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:
A (non-BPO) PRO suit backed up by all core infantry skills with any PRO weapon backed up by all its requisite skills does almost guarantee a kill against someone with minimal SP in core skills and weapons.
Almost doesn't sound like a guarantee to me.
If the guy in the PRO suit isn't stupid, then he'll kill the guy with half ADV gear.
Sounds like you're trying to cling to one tiny little thing, a huge possibility. Fact is, most of the time PRO will beat ADV. A lot of the time, the PRO guy will easily lose if he's drunk or high or really tired, or there's lag spikes and the like.
PRO > ADV
Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
|
Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
3170
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 23:29:00 -
[75] - Quote
thomas mak wrote:
wow,wow,wow, although I got pro swaems,
I AM A TANKER WITH ALL 3 PROTO TURRETS ALSO A ADS POLITE, I started this post just because I got distroyed by a soma just because my stupid can't catch up its rep speed while my tank only got one armor rep, hardener and extander.
refer to ur post I am not QQing just asking a question, also not asking to nerf tanks.
But, I agree ur opinion about shield tanks, in my opinion, it got unreasonably less total health(armor tank got 1200shield,2/5of ahield tank, while shield got1/4 armor.etc.)
Also, almost 0 degree aiming downward which make no sence for a tank, not understanding why
and, health Regan of 2 scouts(shield of course)
Also unbalance of two kind of hardeners,(CD and active time)
one last thing, why missile must be the worst turret since open beta?
That's a painful wall of text to try to read.
If you got beat by a Soma, that's your own fault. Worse fitting and slower rep with no skills vs a PRO tank with all core skills behind it. That's all on you.
What do you mean by "one rep, hardener and extender?" The only extenders in this game are shield extenders. Maybe you meant an armor plate? Also, 3 low slots? Gallente armor tanks have 4 slots now, with 3 high slots. Armor tanks aren't 2 high and 3 low anymore. If you can't fit a 4th module in a lot slow, again, that's all on you.
Of course nerfing the base HP so much is unreasonable, pilot input isn't cared about.
Missile used to be far too good. It needed a rate of fire nerf, but not as severe as was done. They used to fire in incredibly weak 4-round volleys. Were you around for that? They were terrible.
What a wall of text.......
Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
|
|
|
| |
|
| Pages: 1 2 [3] :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |