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thomas mak The Nether Dragon 103	Posted - 2015.04.12 17:30:00 - [1] - Quote when ppl started being able to fit more than 1 again. I am a tanker and a pilot
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5775	Posted - 2015.04.12 18:43:00 - [2] - Quote thomas mak wrote: when ppl started being able to fit more than 1 again. Started? You realize that vehicles have always been able to fit more than one hardener, right? "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
Mary Sedillo Eternal Beings 480	Posted - 2015.04.12 22:09:00 - [3] - Quote Multi-hardeners are what allow a tank to actually engage in the open field for long-ish periods of time when under heavy AV fire. If one did not have them, well, many tanks would be grassed by focused AV far more often.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5782	Posted - 2015.04.12 22:12:00 - [4] - Quote Mary Sedillo wrote: Multi-hardeners are what allow a tank to actually engage in the open field for long-ish periods of time when under heavy AV fire. If one did not have them, well, many tanks would be grassed by focused AV far more often. It's just a product of people who don't understand vehicles or the history behind them, insisting that hardeners are the problem, when hardeners at this point are not all that different from hardeners in the past. Previously hardeners were 25% for armor +10% for skills (~35% total) and shield hardeners were 30% with another 10% from skills (~40% total). We've always been able to fit multiple hardeners, and still can. If an issue with vehicle balance exists, it's not because of the hardeners. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 9321	Posted - 2015.04.12 22:13:00 - [5] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Mary Sedillo wrote: Multi-hardeners are what allow a tank to actually engage in the open field for long-ish periods of time when under heavy AV fire. If one did not have them, well, many tanks would be grassed by focused AV far more often. It's just a product of people who don't understand vehicles or the history behind them, insisting that hardeners are the problem, when hardeners at this point are not all that different from hardeners in the past. Previously hardeners were 25% for armor +10% for skills (~35% total) and shield hardeners were 30% with another 10% from skills (~40% total). We've always been able to fit multiple hardeners, and still can. If an issue with vehicle balance exists, it's not because of the hardeners. What is the issue then? Tanks vs AV is not even a thing right now. Not unless you have 4 or more people taking on just 1 tank with 1 pilot. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5782	Posted - 2015.04.12 22:18:00 - [6] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Mary Sedillo wrote: Multi-hardeners are what allow a tank to actually engage in the open field for long-ish periods of time when under heavy AV fire. If one did not have them, well, many tanks would be grassed by focused AV far more often. It's just a product of people who don't understand vehicles or the history behind them, insisting that hardeners are the problem, when hardeners at this point are not all that different from hardeners in the past. Previously hardeners were 25% for armor +10% for skills (~35% total) and shield hardeners were 30% with another 10% from skills (~40% total). We've always been able to fit multiple hardeners, and still can. If an issue with vehicle balance exists, it's not because of the hardeners. What is the issue then? Tanks vs AV is not even a thing right now. Not unless you have 4 or more people taking on just 1 tank with 1 pilot. Passive regen being the primary means of HP regeneration. We need active modules. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
Mary Sedillo Eternal Beings 480	Posted - 2015.04.12 22:18:00 - [7] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Mary Sedillo wrote: Multi-hardeners are what allow a tank to actually engage in the open field for long-ish periods of time when under heavy AV fire. If one did not have them, well, many tanks would be grassed by focused AV far more often. It's just a product of people who don't understand vehicles or the history behind them, insisting that hardeners are the problem, when hardeners at this point are not all that different from hardeners in the past. Previously hardeners were 25% for armor +10% for skills (~35% total) and shield hardeners were 30% with another 10% from skills (~40% total). We've always been able to fit multiple hardeners, and still can. If an issue with vehicle balance exists, it's not because of the hardeners. What is the issue then? Tanks vs AV is not even a thing right now. Not unless you have 4 or more people taking on just 1 tank with 1 pilot. Actually, there are those who can solo tanks rather effectively. Though my skill level and awareness can get me away, super power Plasma Cannons v my gunnlogi on hopper suits, or MinMandos stacking a ton of damage mods can really put a hurt on the tank. Of COURSE basic/advanced AV will struggle to keep up with PRO tank, and team work is the way to go. Also, assault forge guns. Great vs. High Rep armor tanks! Just a piece of advice for the newer AVbros out there.
Mary Sedillo Eternal Beings 480	Posted - 2015.04.12 22:19:00 - [8] - Quote I think the Passive HP is just fine. Just need to adjust your tactics to attack us, just as we do when we notice certain AV set-ups.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5782	Posted - 2015.04.12 22:21:00 - [9] - Quote Mary Sedillo wrote: I think the Passive HP is just fine. Just need to adjust your tactics to attack us, just as we do when we notice certain AV set-ups. Passive regen is fine, but not as a primary means of regen. I'm fine with low amounts of constant HP regeneration, but Armor Repairers are problematic, particularly the Heavy ones. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
Mary Sedillo Eternal Beings 480	Posted - 2015.04.12 22:25:00 - [10] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Mary Sedillo wrote: I think the Passive HP is just fine. Just need to adjust your tactics to attack us, just as we do when we notice certain AV set-ups. Passive regen is fine, but not as a primary means of regen. I'm fine with low amounts of constant HP regeneration, but Armor Repairers are problematic, particularly the Heavy ones. Not really. The problem with having High repair is either - Sacrifice health or Sacrifice hardener BOTH are vulnerable to fast, high alpha weaponry. Assault Forge Gun would be one. Proto-level AV nade spam. Remote/Proxis Jihad Jeep. Many, many options. Don't use SLOW damage on a repper, armor tank, such as swarms, unless you are in group.

Mary Sedillo Eternal Beings 480	Posted - 2015.04.12 22:26:00 - [11] - Quote But often the gear giving the high hp regen is proto level, and SHOULD be hard for an AV to solo mindlessly. The lower tier reppers do NOT keep up well with AV onslaught of any kind. Just putting that out there.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5784	Posted - 2015.04.12 22:33:00 - [12] - Quote The issue is that while hardened and repping constantly, it's effectively negating extremely large amounts of incoming DPS which in turn increases it's eHP. The problem is that at proto, dual hardener and dual repped Madrugars can pretty much mindlessly keep up with AV, even proto AV. I have no issue with reppers being able to negate large amounts of incoming DPS, but by no means should it have zero downtime which is basically what we have now. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 9321	Posted - 2015.04.12 22:36:00 - [13] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: The issue is that while hardened and repping constantly, it's effectively negating extremely large amounts of incoming DPS which in turn increases it's eHP. The problem is that at proto, dual hardener and dual repped Madrugars can pretty much mindlessly keep up with AV, even proto AV. I have no issue with reppers being able to negate large amounts of incoming DPS, but by no means should it have zero downtime which is basically what we have now. Thank you. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Mary Sedillo Eternal Beings 480	Posted - 2015.04.12 22:42:00 - [14] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: The issue is that while hardened and repping constantly, it's effectively negating extremely large amounts of incoming DPS which in turn increases it's eHP. The problem is that at proto, dual hardener and dual repped Madrugars can pretty much mindlessly keep up with AV, even proto AV. I have no issue with reppers being able to negate large amounts of incoming DPS, but by no means should it have zero downtime which is basically what we have now. Thank you. But the problem is, if he wants to keep perma-hardener, he can only keep one up at a time, with long cool downs. If he pops both of them, he WILL have periods of vulnerability. But with ONE hardener up, again, HIGH Alpha AV is the way to counter them. Don't bring slow swarms, bring Proto Assault Forge Gun, bring Lai Dai Grenades, and lay traps upon the ground. Most of those super repper/ hardener tanks do NOT run scans, so clump of Proximities will send them to hell in a fiery blaze of glory.
Mary Sedillo Eternal Beings 480	Posted - 2015.04.12 22:43:00 - [15] - Quote It doesn't matter how many times we tell you our weaknesses, you guys will endlessly push for nerfs so even the dumbest mlt swarm launcher can solo-mode 1.4 mil ISK proto tank.
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 9322	Posted - 2015.04.12 22:53:00 - [16] - Quote Mary Sedillo wrote: It doesn't matter how many times we tell you our weaknesses, you guys will endlessly push for nerfs so even the dumbest mlt swarm launcher can solo-mode 1.4 mil ISK proto tank. That is an extreme exaggeration. I want a balanced game, and certain parts of it are simply not balanced right now. Perhaps things will be better when all the tank variants come in, but as of now the meta reminds me of 1.7 when tanks had no counter other than tanks. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 529	Posted - 2015.04.12 22:54:00 - [17] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: The issue is that while hardened and repping constantly, it's effectively negating extremely large amounts of incoming DPS which in turn increases it's eHP. The problem is that at proto, dual hardener and dual repped Madrugars can pretty much mindlessly keep up with AV, even proto AV. I have no issue with reppers being able to negate large amounts of incoming DPS, but by no means should it have zero downtime which is basically what we have now. That's not going to solve the problem though, it will make it worse as tanks will immediately withdraw back to the redline to wait out the cooldown. The solution is to keep the reps but stagger the rate, I.E. every 5 secs instead of 1 ADS Ramming Revenge! Plasma Cannon Rampage
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 18193	Posted - 2015.04.12 23:08:00 - [18] - Quote Juno Tristan wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: The issue is that while hardened and repping constantly, it's effectively negating extremely large amounts of incoming DPS which in turn increases it's eHP. The problem is that at proto, dual hardener and dual repped Madrugars can pretty much mindlessly keep up with AV, even proto AV. I have no issue with reppers being able to negate large amounts of incoming DPS, but by no means should it have zero downtime which is basically what we have now. That's not going to solve the problem though, it will make it worse as tanks will immediately withdraw back to the redline to wait out the cooldown. The solution is to keep the reps but stagger the rate, I.E. every 5 secs instead of 1 At that point they might as well be Actives since most tankers do that anyway as their entire EHP value is in their hardeners and not in their plating. You simple cannot stop this kind of behaviour since without your modules readied all you are is a really expensive red diamond that nobody likes. GÇ£That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die.GÇ¥ -The Nameless City
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 8029	Posted - 2015.04.12 23:41:00 - [19] - Quote Mary Sedillo wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Mary Sedillo wrote: I think the Passive HP is just fine. Just need to adjust your tactics to attack us, just as we do when we notice certain AV set-ups. Passive regen is fine, but not as a primary means of regen. I'm fine with low amounts of constant HP regeneration, but Armor Repairers are problematic, particularly the Heavy ones. Not really. The problem with having High repair is either - Sacrifice health or Sacrifice hardener BOTH are vulnerable to fast, high alpha weaponry. Assault Forge Gun would be one. Proto-level AV nade spam. Remote/Proxis Jihad Jeep. Many, many options. Don't use SLOW damage on a repper, armor tank, such as swarms, unless you are in group. It's very simple. dual hardened, dual repped madrugars drop a IAFG into negative damage inflicted after shot 4. I.E. a constant firing IAFG will never break a madrugar past 80% armor, and weakspot hits won't kill a madrugar before reload. The math renders it physically impossible. Two IAFGs still cannot output enough damage to kill a current madrugar in 8 shots and it will be above 70% armor (roughly) before they finish reloading. There is no "learning to attack passive rep tanks" under the current method. It is mathematically IMPOSSIBLE for a solo AV gunner to kill an HAV under ANY CIRCUMSTANCE without abusive mechanics. or doing incredibly stupid sht that requires the HAV driver to be goddamn moron. I do not exaggerate. The only HAV drivers who die let shots hit their weakspot more than once with hardeners down. The current madrugar meta is impossible for another player to beat without three to one odds without abusing triple AV nades, and myofibril stacking shenanigans, or a JLAV loaded with ten REs. Don't start feeding anyone that sht about how madrugars are fine. They are the opposite of "fine." And the gunnlogis shouldn't have been nerfed on fittings. It was unnecessary. AV
Mary Sedillo Eternal Beings 482	Posted - 2015.04.13 00:16:00 - [20] - Quote It is NOT impossible to kill a super repping armor tank. It is possible to solo it with ALL of my aforementioned methods. Proto tanks WILL be tough to kill for Advanced and Lower, if you aren't running a power AFG, you are going to have a rough time. If you aren't putting traps down, you will have a hard time. 1.4 million tank is SUPPOSED to be hard to take with ADV and lower AV and part of our role on point is to FORCE people to switch to AV to suppress/kill us. What do you want? To remove us entirely? If you are fighting a double hardener tank, they usually have NO scans, so mine traps work even better. If tank is engaged on the point, bring out a JLAV and slam into his side. If you have elevation, PROTO assault forge gun, and use teamwork. 3 or so Proto AV makes easy meal of even a fast rep tank with hardeners.

Mary Sedillo Eternal Beings 482	Posted - 2015.04.13 00:17:00 - [21] - Quote Again its a PROTO tank, not a BASIC, so adjust as tankers have had to adjust to AV buffs.
Mary Sedillo Eternal Beings 482	Posted - 2015.04.13 00:19:00 - [22] - Quote And, if push comes to shove, I recommend have a tough Missile Tank fitting with damage mods as last resort. One cannot underestimate in the current meta the power of a proto-missile damage mod madrugar fit being able to slam damage on blaster/rail madrugars with a fierceness.
Mary Sedillo Eternal Beings 482	Posted - 2015.04.13 00:22:00 - [23] - Quote But I guess setting up traps, getting the high ground, and working as a team to take down a 1.4 mil ISK vehicle with millions upon millions of SP invested is just too hard. They must be able to OHKO tanks with any random MLT AV fit they have SOLO with little to no thought. They want tanks to be relegated to having even less purpose than they have now, and they want all Vehicle people bankrupt from the constant losses. They want to force more tankers into the redline with little payout and high risk even after the years of SP investment. This Call of Duty 514 and the infantry will not be satisfied til vehicles are removed to free up infantry assets.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 18196	Posted - 2015.04.13 00:33:00 - [24] - Quote Mary Sedillo wrote: It is NOT impossible to kill a super repping armor tank. It is possible to solo it with ALL of my aforementioned methods. Proto tanks WILL be tough to kill for Advanced and Lower, if you aren't running a power AFG, you are going to have a rough time. If you aren't putting traps down, you will have a hard time. 1.4 million tank is SUPPOSED to be hard to take with ADV and lower AV and part of our role on point is to FORCE people to switch to AV to suppress/kill us. What do you want? To remove us entirely? If you are fighting a double hardener tank, they usually have NO scans, so mine traps work even better. If tank is engaged on the point, bring out a JLAV and slam into his side. If you have elevation, PROTO assault forge gun, and use teamwork. 3 or so Proto AV makes easy meal of even a fast rep tank with hardeners. If the math says it's impossible....it usually is. GÇ£That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die.GÇ¥ -The Nameless City
Mary Sedillo Eternal Beings 482	Posted - 2015.04.13 00:55:00 - [25] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Mary Sedillo wrote: It is NOT impossible to kill a super repping armor tank. It is possible to solo it with ALL of my aforementioned methods. Proto tanks WILL be tough to kill for Advanced and Lower, if you aren't running a power AFG, you are going to have a rough time. If you aren't putting traps down, you will have a hard time. 1.4 million tank is SUPPOSED to be hard to take with ADV and lower AV and part of our role on point is to FORCE people to switch to AV to suppress/kill us. What do you want? To remove us entirely? If you are fighting a double hardener tank, they usually have NO scans, so mine traps work even better. If tank is engaged on the point, bring out a JLAV and slam into his side. If you have elevation, PROTO assault forge gun, and use teamwork. 3 or so Proto AV makes easy meal of even a fast rep tank with hardeners. If the math says it's impossible....it usually is. What the math says and what the gameplay actually says are two different things. Gameplay says AFG, Proto AV nades, and explosives do the trick. If you can't solo bring in more, and maybe a tank if you want a sure-kill.
nelo kazuma 1.U.P 76	Posted - 2015.04.13 01:01:00 - [26] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Mary Sedillo wrote: Multi-hardeners are what allow a tank to actually engage in the open field for long-ish periods of time when under heavy AV fire. If one did not have them, well, many tanks would be grassed by focused AV far more often. It's just a product of people who don't understand vehicles or the history behind them, insisting that hardeners are the problem, when hardeners at this point are not all that different from hardeners in the past. Previously hardeners were 25% for armor +10% for skills (~35% total) and shield hardeners were 30% with another 10% from skills (~40% total). We've always been able to fit multiple hardeners, and still can. If an issue with vehicle balance exists, it's not because of the hardeners. Your right its not hardeners its both that and the ability to rep straight through damage without a damage threshold that stops regen like on shield vehichles. Id be ok with tanks if reps were turned back to an active module with a large wait time. Ive seen tanks use one hardener almost endlessly and they popped second against if things got to rough which in my opinion should not be possible.
Mary Sedillo Eternal Beings 482	Posted - 2015.04.13 01:06:00 - [27] - Quote nelo kazuma wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Mary Sedillo wrote: Multi-hardeners are what allow a tank to actually engage in the open field for long-ish periods of time when under heavy AV fire. If one did not have them, well, many tanks would be grassed by focused AV far more often. It's just a product of people who don't understand vehicles or the history behind them, insisting that hardeners are the problem, when hardeners at this point are not all that different from hardeners in the past. Previously hardeners were 25% for armor +10% for skills (~35% total) and shield hardeners were 30% with another 10% from skills (~40% total). We've always been able to fit multiple hardeners, and still can. If an issue with vehicle balance exists, it's not because of the hardeners. Your right its not hardeners its both that and the ability to rep straight through damage without a damage threshold that stops regen like on shield vehichles. Id be ok with tanks if reps were turned back to an active module with a large wait time. Ive seen tanks use one hardener almost endlessly and they popped second against if things got to rough which in my opinion should not be possible. So what you are saying is that tanks should be easy mode to kill in tough situations? A guaranteed kill? If you can't see the blaring weakness on a ******* madrugar, (proto AFG, high explosives, mine traps, JLAV), that is on YOU! If you can't use teamwork to take one down, that is on YOU, not the driver.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5784	Posted - 2015.04.13 01:09:00 - [28] - Quote Mary Sedillo wrote: It doesn't matter how many times we tell you our weaknesses, you guys will endlessly push for nerfs so even the dumbest mlt swarm launcher can solo-mode 1.4 mil ISK proto tank. And when you say "us" you're also talking about me. Been using HAVs since closed beta, I know very well how they work, and use them to this day. And I'm telling you that I've been running the dual hardener, dual rep fit and I can tell you that it's stupid easy to play as, and I've yet to die in that fit. While that is anecdotal, the math also supports that the fit is simply too effective. Is it possible to kill to kill that fit? Yes. But the conditions needed to make that happen are far too specific for it to be considered balanced. The fact remains that active reps have existed in the past and the gameplay itself was far more balanced at the time. And as Juno brought up, active reps cycled every 3 seconds instead of every 1 second like they current do. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
Mary Sedillo Eternal Beings 482	Posted - 2015.04.13 01:26:00 - [29] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Mary Sedillo wrote: It doesn't matter how many times we tell you our weaknesses, you guys will endlessly push for nerfs so even the dumbest mlt swarm launcher can solo-mode 1.4 mil ISK proto tank. And when you say "us" you're also talking about me. Been using HAVs since closed beta, I know very well how they work, and use them to this day. And I'm telling you that I've been running the dual hardener, dual rep fit and I can tell you that it's stupid easy to play as, and I've yet to die in that fit. While that is anecdotal, the math also supports that the fit is simply too effective. Is it possible to kill to kill that fit? Yes. But the conditions needed to make that happen are far too specific for it to be considered balanced. The fact remains that active reps have existed in the past and the gameplay itself was far more balanced at the time. And as Juno brought up, active reps cycled every 3 seconds instead of every 1 second like they current do. But it doesn't. I've run the fit too. And I am tell you its WEAKNESSES. It is NOT impossible to kill by any means. It IS very tough, but not impossible to kill if you use teamwork to down it. It is also a Proto-level tank and should not be easy mode for Advanced and lower.
Mary Sedillo Eternal Beings 482	Posted - 2015.04.13 01:28:00 - [30] - Quote Also, if you do bust both hardeners, you WILL have to disengage quickly, because when hardeners down on the fit, due to lack of raw base EHP, you pop easily to any form of AV. Even with both hardeners, JLAVs will OHKO, and Proto AFGs. How many times do I need to open people's eyes? Proto AFGs make short work of that fit!!!



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