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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5410
   |
Posted - 2015.03.15 07:40:00 -
[1] - Quote
So in Delta, missiles were problematic. They were built around a concept that they had massive burst damage but awful reload which propagated a playstyle that relied heavily on killing the enemy in a single salvo, or dying on the reload. Not only was this really ****** for the pilot who just failed to finish off the last couple hundred HP and gets owned on the reload, but it was also very frustrating to armor tankers that would get taken from full HP to death in a matter of seconds with little time to react.
Rattati responded to this by basically decreasing the burst DPS by lowering the fire rate, giving vehicles more time to react, which inadvertently make the "die on the reload" far more prevalent. The large missile went from overpowered to underpowered, which is understandable given the binary performance that the turret has.
I felt we need to buff the Large Missile to somewhere between Delta and Echo, but also take a look at the core fundamentals of how missiles work. Here are the general calcs, and while this is just a first pass, provide constructive feedback but don't crawl up my ass if you don't like the numbers. It's a work in progress, so lets have a constructive conversation...I'm very reasonable if people are not asshats about it.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1H0Jb2GUobDx28eETJ-7SSD0z4f9VqfUKvFW1Lo_5eEQ/edit?usp=sharing
General Notes:
Reduced Damage Per Magazine to remove "Insta-gank" mechanic
Reverted Fire Rate to Delta levels
Moved Burst DPS to levels between Delta and Echo
Drastically reduced reload time (50% of Echo, 60% of Delta)
Sustained DPS between Blaster and Railgun
Burst DPS ~x2 that of a Blaster/Railgun
High Burst DPS makes it ideal for an ambush weapon to catch enemy vehicles with their hardeners down. The first volley will not kill the target, but it will do considerable damage quickly and a quick reload allows them to recover quickly. Sustained damage is being considerably buffed from Echo to rest between that of a Blaster and a Railgun.
Missiles will be able to contend with other turrets even in a direct fight (no ambush volley) due to similar sustained DPS. Also note that as stated, Sustained DPS for Blasters and Railguns only take into account heat buildup. After a handful of heat cycles the turret will have to reload, reducing sustained damage considerably. Missiles will not suffer from this issue as reload is the primary limiting factor in sustained DPS, not heat like Blasters/Rail.
Also I'm aware that the Railguns are underpeforming currently. I agree that some changes need to be made to them, but for the sake of the current conversation I assumed no change.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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The Final Fantasy
DETHDEALERS
RISE of LEGION
23
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Posted - 2015.03.15 08:09:00 -
[2] - Quote
idk why ppl are against missiles being the shotgun out of the 3 av turret i mean if we can have shotty weapons why not shotty av? |
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5410
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 08:46:00 -
[3] - Quote
The Final Fantasy wrote:idk why ppl are against missiles being the shotgun out of the 3 av turret i mean if we can have shotty weapons why not shotty av?
A weapon can be high alpha damage without being instagank. This proposal seeks to provide a more moderate and reasonable model, particularly because the previous model was excessively binary and the current model is admittedly still not working properly and under performing.
Also a shotgun typically doesn't have the relative range of a large missile turret.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
|
The Final Fantasy
DETHDEALERS
RISE of LEGION
24
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Posted - 2015.03.15 09:02:00 -
[4] - Quote
reason why i consider it to be a shotty av is because you kinda need to be in close to med range and beside using all your your missile one 1 go is a double edge sword if the other tank reacts fast enough and activates hardners your there running away shooting 2 per panic reload |
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5410
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 09:04:00 -
[5] - Quote
The Final Fantasy wrote:reason why i consider it to be a shotty av is because you kinda need to be in close to med range and beside using all your your missile one 1 go is a double edge sword if the other tank reacts fast enough and activates hardners your there running away shooting 2 per panic reload
And while that's true, no one likes to die instantly without any time to react. As I've stated the old system basically was "Instantly kill the enemy, or die during the reload" which isn't very enjoyable for the losing side of that engagement. This model allows you to take a good chunk of HP out of the enemy before they can get their hardener up, but still allows you remain in a position capable of winning in case the initial ambush fails. The old system did not allow this second condition.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
|
The Final Fantasy
DETHDEALERS
RISE of LEGION
24
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 09:26:00 -
[6] - Quote
Even tho i do favor your idea idk it just seems like turning missiles into a harder hitting blaster imo but thats just me.
Tbh as sad as it is i just realize something here, tanks are use to kill other tanks in the form of av , all other tanks turrets are av cept for small blasters so there really is no point in a tank vs infantry anymore is there? i mean a tank can get lucky killing a bit of ppl here and there but by the end of the match a proto suit is gonna get more kills than a tank vs infantry...i think i just made myself sad  |
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5415
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 10:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
The Final Fantasy wrote:Even tho i do favor your idea idk it just seems like turning missiles into a harder hitting blaster imo but thats just me. Tbh as sad as it is i just realize something here, tanks are use to kill other tanks in the form of av , all other tanks turrets are av cept for small blasters so there really is no point in a tank vs infantry anymore is there? i mean a tank can get lucky killing a bit of ppl here and there but by the end of the match a proto suit is gonna get more kills than a tank vs infantry...i think i just made myself sad
Well it's actually going to perform quite a bit differently than a Blaster. For example it's burst DPS is about twice as high, meaning it's going to be extremely proficient and popping lightly tanked vehicles as well as doing a lot of damage very quickly in an ambush setting as we talked about prior. A blaster on the other hand delivers its DPS significantly slower, meaning an enemy will be able to activate a hardener/get behind cover more readily. Additionally it's sustained DPS is very consistent, whereas a Blaster needs to manage essentially two heat cycles and then a reload cycle giving it a less consistent sustained DPS profile.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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Stefan Stahl
Seituoda Taskforce Command
1039
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 12:01:00 -
[8] - Quote
I always thought Missiles were more enjoyable before 1.7 (4-shot volleys), and this proposal somewhat moves them back in that direction. Shorter bursts of damage with shorter time between bursts makes sustained DPS more important rather than burst DPS. I think the past year has shown that 3 second HAV fights aren't fun. |
Himiko Kuronaga
Fatal Absolution
Negative-Feedback
5338
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 12:16:00 -
[9] - Quote
Confirming I still want a missile tank that is basically a super front loaded swarm launcher on steroids.
Usually banned for being too awesome.
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DarthJT5
Random Gunz
RISE of LEGION
317
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 14:13:00 -
[10] - Quote
On the reload time, when would you have the missiles "start" reloading? 2 seconds? 3? That may be something you want to add to the spreadsheet.
Also, your total ammo count from Delta on the missiles is wrong. It used to be 150 ish, and honestly if it's going to have such lower damage then it's going to need like 250-300 missiles so we don't have to go back to the redline every 2 minutes.
What do you think about keeping the damage the same, but knocking down magazine size to something like 10 or 8? Having 320 damage direct would make hitting infantry something they don't even have to worry about. Right now, or, at least before the RoF nerf, if some forge gunner is sniping me and I figure out where he is, I could kill him most of the time by hitting him 3-4 before he would start doing jumping jacks. Taking away the actual damage per missile would hurt anti infantry work that doesn't even work unless your really good with missiles. It also hurts the ability to fight Dropships, because usually your not going to get all 12 shots on target, and with these numbers hitting them with all 12 shots wouldn't even kill one before they just AB away.
Not hating on your numbers, just giving constructive criticism.
Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta.
Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year.
The awnser is always XT missiles....
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Godin Thekiller
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
2972
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Posted - 2015.03.15 15:05:00 -
[11] - Quote
Just to point this out, but rails aren't underperforming, rather people is trying to use them how they were a week ago, instead of hanging back.
click me
Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
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DUST Fiend
16074
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Posted - 2015.03.15 17:52:00 -
[12] - Quote
Missiles seem to be popping my armor tanks plenty quick enough, even with a hardener up.
Large turrets are really buggy right now too though, but you know that.
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
1861
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 18:03:00 -
[13] - Quote
The Final Fantasy wrote:idk why ppl are against missiles being the shotgun out of the 3 av turret i mean if we can have shotty weapons why not shotty av?
Long ago, devs opendly talked about L MSLs being shotguns of vehicles.
However, that was not the case as they had in addition of that shotgun use very good medium-long range capabilities provided the operator used controller fire.
That's why I personally flagged L MSLs being somewhat too powerful (honestly, jack of all trades except extreme sniping distance.)
Looking at both sides of the coin.
Even Aurum one.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5422
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 18:35:00 -
[14] - Quote
DarthJT5 wrote:On the reload time, when would you have the missiles "start" reloading? 2 seconds? 3? That may be something you want to add to the spreadsheet.
Also, your total ammo count from Delta on the missiles is wrong. It used to be 150 ish, and honestly if it's going to have such lower damage then it's going to need like 250-300 missiles so we don't have to go back to the redline every 2 minutes.
What do you think about keeping the damage the same, but knocking down magazine size to something like 10 or 8? Having 320 damage direct would make hitting infantry something they don't even have to worry about. Right now, or, at least before the RoF nerf, if some forge gunner is sniping me and I figure out where he is, I could kill him most of the time by hitting him 3-4 before he would start doing jumping jacks. Taking away the actual damage per missile would hurt anti infantry work that doesn't even work unless your really good with missiles. It also hurts the ability to fight Dropships, because usually your not going to get all 12 shots on target, and with these numbers hitting them with all 12 shots wouldn't even kill one before they just AB away.
Not hating on your numbers, just giving constructive criticism.
Fixed the max ammo for Delta, thanks for pointing that out. I may have to bump that back up to Delta levels since the missile damage has decreased, but bear in mind that max ammo is not used in any calculations here.
As for the damage per missile and magazine size....it honestly doesn't really matter to me. The key things with that are "How much damage is in the magazine" and "How quickly does it apply that damage". You can play around with the damage per shot and magazine size the manipulate the first, and then the fire rate to manipulate the second, and still get similar results overall.
I actually did consider the Anti-Infantry applications, and you are very correct that this would make it harder to kill infantry. However I also think that at the lower damage levels, you can afford to ramp up the splash radius a bit and make the weapon a bit less dependent on direct hits, placing the Missiles between Blasters and Rails in terms of effectiveness against infantry.
But like I said before either model would work with the right number tweaking, I'll do a version under your suggestion so we can see how it looks.
As for the granular reload speed I haven't put a ton of thought into it. From my understanding the Delta model used a 4 second base and then 0.5 seconds per missile for a total of 10 seconds. Obviously with a 6 second reload we can't use 0.5 seconds. Perhaps 3 second base with a 0.25 per missile reload speed?
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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DUST Fiend
16081
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 18:50:00 -
[15] - Quote
Why not make large missiles fire in 4 round salvos? That way it applies a lot of damage rapidly within the salvo, then waits a second or two, then shoots again. This gives some warning to people, still lets missiles deal crazy damage, yet may actually make them a little harder to use because you have to be sure when you pull that trigger.
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DarthJT5
Random Gunz
RISE of LEGION
321
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Posted - 2015.03.15 18:50:00 -
[16] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:DarthJT5 wrote:On the reload time, when would you have the missiles "start" reloading? 2 seconds? 3? That may be something you want to add to the spreadsheet.
Also, your total ammo count from Delta on the missiles is wrong. It used to be 150 ish, and honestly if it's going to have such lower damage then it's going to need like 250-300 missiles so we don't have to go back to the redline every 2 minutes.
What do you think about keeping the damage the same, but knocking down magazine size to something like 10 or 8? Having 320 damage direct would make hitting infantry something they don't even have to worry about. Right now, or, at least before the RoF nerf, if some forge gunner is sniping me and I figure out where he is, I could kill him most of the time by hitting him 3-4 before he would start doing jumping jacks. Taking away the actual damage per missile would hurt anti infantry work that doesn't even work unless your really good with missiles. It also hurts the ability to fight Dropships, because usually your not going to get all 12 shots on target, and with these numbers hitting them with all 12 shots wouldn't even kill one before they just AB away.
Not hating on your numbers, just giving constructive criticism. Fixed the max ammo for Delta, thanks for pointing that out. I may have to bump that back up to Delta levels since the missile damage has decreased, but bear in mind that max ammo is not used in any calculations here. As for the damage per missile and magazine size....it honestly doesn't really matter to me. The key things with that are "How much damage is in the magazine" and "How quickly does it apply that damage". You can play around with the damage per shot and magazine size the manipulate the first, and then the fire rate to manipulate the second, and still get similar results overall. I actually did consider the Anti-Infantry applications, and you are very correct that this would make it harder to kill infantry. However I also think that at the lower damage levels, you can afford to ramp up the splash radius a bit and make the weapon a bit less dependent on direct hits, placing the Missiles between Blasters and Rails in terms of effectiveness against infantry. But like I said before either model would work with the right number tweaking, I'll do a version under your suggestion so we can see how it looks. As for the granular reload speed I haven't put a ton of thought into it. From my understanding the Delta model used a 4 second base and then 0.5 seconds per missile for a total of 10 seconds. Obviously with a 6 second reload we can't use 0.5 seconds. Perhaps 3 second base with a 0.25 per missile reload speed?
That sounds like a good reload speed to me.
The only other thing I would change is having RoF at least at 300. This 200 right now does not feel natural to my trigger finger (I've always semi-auto fired it due to the full auto not always working, and because it's much more accurate that way). 400 RPM feels right, but 300 is acceptable since we're trying to keep its DPS at a reasonable level. What do you think it's max DPS should be so we're on the same page?
EDIT: didn't see your edit before I posted lol, will see what else you've added
Double EDIT: yes, magazine needs to be even. If it's lower than 8 it's gotta be 6. As long as it had some increased damage to keep it the same that's fine
Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta.
Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year.
The awnser is always XT missiles....
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5422
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 18:57:00 -
[17] - Quote
DarthJT5 wrote:
That sounds like a good reload speed to me.
The only other thing I would change is having RoF at least at 300. This 200 right now does not feel natural to my trigger finger (I've always semi-auto fired it due to the full auto not always working, and because it's much more accurate that way). 400 RPM feels right, but 300 is acceptable since we're trying to keep its DPS at a reasonable level. What do you think it's max DPS should be so we're on the same page?
I think you may be misreading the sheet? I have 3 proposals on there now (my original, and two variants of what you talked about) and they all feature 300-400 RPM
As for DPS, I don't want to get too much higher than 2000 since thats already double what a Blaster and Rail can do. That's the nature of the burst damage. The more important factor here though is damage per salvo and sustained DPS, which are manipulated by magazine and damage per shot, as well as reload speed.
Sustained DPS needs to be inferior to a Blaster but better than a rail, which is about where it's sitting right now. As for total damage per magazine that's largely a function of eHP on other vehicles. Tentatively I've been keeping it below 4000 intentionally (2/3 of where it was in Delta) but that's of course up for discussion. You do at least understand my concern in wanting to keep it lower.
DUST Fiend wrote:Why not make large missiles fire in 4 round salvos? That way it applies a lot of damage rapidly within the salvo, then waits a second or two, then shoots again. This gives some warning to people, still lets missiles deal crazy damage, yet may actually make them a little harder to use because you have to be sure when you pull that trigger.
I would be fine with that as well, though mind you that sheds more of the burst damage in exchange for more reliable sustained damage. I can spin up some numbers for that as well.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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DarthJT5
Random Gunz
RISE of LEGION
321
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 19:00:00 -
[18] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:DarthJT5 wrote:
That sounds like a good reload speed to me.
The only other thing I would change is having RoF at least at 300. This 200 right now does not feel natural to my trigger finger (I've always semi-auto fired it due to the full auto not always working, and because it's much more accurate that way). 400 RPM feels right, but 300 is acceptable since we're trying to keep its DPS at a reasonable level. What do you think it's max DPS should be so we're on the same page?
I think you may be misreading the sheet? I have 3 proposals on there now (my original, and two variants of what you talked about) and they all feature 300-400 RPM As for DPS, I don't want to get too much higher than 2000 since thats already double what a Blaster and Rail can do. That's the nature of the burst damage. The more important factor here though is damage per salvo and sustained DPS, which are manipulated by magazine and damage per shot, as well as reload speed. Sustained DPS needs to be inferior to a Blaster but better than a rail, which is about where it's sitting right now. As for total damage per magazine that's largely a function of eHP on other vehicles. Tentatively I've been keeping it below 4000 intentionally (2/3 of where it was in Delta) but that's of course up for discussion. You do at least understand my concern in wanting to keep it lower. DUST Fiend wrote:Why not make large missiles fire in 4 round salvos? That way it applies a lot of damage rapidly within the salvo, then waits a second or two, then shoots again. This gives some warning to people, still lets missiles deal crazy damage, yet may actually make them a little harder to use because you have to be sure when you pull that trigger. I would be fine with that as well, though mind you that sheds more of the burst damage in exchange for more reliable sustained damage. I can spin up some numbers for that as well.
The spreadsheet hadn't updated when I had posted my last response, numbers look good
Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta.
Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year.
The awnser is always XT missiles....
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DUST Fiend
16081
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 19:05:00 -
[19] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:DarthJT5 wrote:
That sounds like a good reload speed to me.
The only other thing I would change is having RoF at least at 300. This 200 right now does not feel natural to my trigger finger (I've always semi-auto fired it due to the full auto not always working, and because it's much more accurate that way). 400 RPM feels right, but 300 is acceptable since we're trying to keep its DPS at a reasonable level. What do you think it's max DPS should be so we're on the same page?
I think you may be misreading the sheet? I have 3 proposals on there now (my original, and two variants of what you talked about) and they all feature 300-400 RPM As for DPS, I don't want to get too much higher than 2000 since thats already double what a Blaster and Rail can do. That's the nature of the burst damage. The more important factor here though is damage per salvo and sustained DPS, which are manipulated by magazine and damage per shot, as well as reload speed. Sustained DPS needs to be inferior to a Blaster but better than a rail, which is about where it's sitting right now. As for total damage per magazine that's largely a function of eHP on other vehicles. Tentatively I've been keeping it below 4000 intentionally (2/3 of where it was in Delta) but that's of course up for discussion. You do at least understand my concern in wanting to keep it lower. DUST Fiend wrote:Why not make large missiles fire in 4 round salvos? That way it applies a lot of damage rapidly within the salvo, then waits a second or two, then shoots again. This gives some warning to people, still lets missiles deal crazy damage, yet may actually make them a little harder to use because you have to be sure when you pull that trigger. I would be fine with that as well, though mind you that sheds more of the burst damage in exchange for more reliable sustained damage. I can spin up some numbers for that as well.
I'm not a big fan of high alpha weapons, especially in vehicle combat. It really makes for boring, one sided engagements, regardless of who wins.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5422
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Posted - 2015.03.15 19:06:00 -
[20] - Quote
Updated with some rough numbers showing Fiend's concept as well. Unfortunately because missiles are not very granular in their damage per shot its hard to get everything to line up evenly with each other. Further feedback would be appreciated.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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DarthJT5
Random Gunz
RISE of LEGION
321
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Posted - 2015.03.15 19:10:00 -
[21] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Updated with some rough numbers showing Fiend's concept as well. Unfortunately because missiles are not very granular in their damage per shot its hard to get everything to line up evenly with each other. Further feedback would be appreciated.
Should missile velocity be looked at as well? Idk if that's even applicable but it would make mid to long range engagements easier.
Also, all these different versions we have would make GREAT variety for missile turrets
We really just need Rattati to get on this thread so we can then get these ideas into reality
Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta.
Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year.
The awnser is always XT missiles....
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5422
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Posted - 2015.03.15 19:13:00 -
[22] - Quote
DarthJT5 wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Updated with some rough numbers showing Fiend's concept as well. Unfortunately because missiles are not very granular in their damage per shot its hard to get everything to line up evenly with each other. Further feedback would be appreciated. Should missile velocity be looked at as well? Idk if that's even applicable but it would make mid to long range engagements easier. Also, all these different versions we have would make GREAT variety for missile turrets We really just need Rattati to get on this thread so we can then get these ideas into reality
Large Missiles do feel a tad slow. I'd actually love if we could get a light tracking effect on vehicles/installations but that's probably outside the possible programming realm. A tad more velocity might go a long way in making them more effective at longer ranges. One thing I would warn about for the Darth variants however is because you have less missiles with more damage each, every single miss is going to hurt a lot more than the Pokey variant which is more forgiving per missile. That being said you also have to land fewer shots with the Darth (or Fiend) variants to get the same amount of damage, so it kinda goes both ways. Just food for the thought.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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DarthJT5
Random Gunz
RISE of LEGION
321
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Posted - 2015.03.15 19:22:00 -
[23] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:DarthJT5 wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Updated with some rough numbers showing Fiend's concept as well. Unfortunately because missiles are not very granular in their damage per shot its hard to get everything to line up evenly with each other. Further feedback would be appreciated. Should missile velocity be looked at as well? Idk if that's even applicable but it would make mid to long range engagements easier. Also, all these different versions we have would make GREAT variety for missile turrets We really just need Rattati to get on this thread so we can then get these ideas into reality Large Missiles do feel a tad slow. I'd actually love if we could get a light tracking effect on vehicles/installations but that's probably outside the possible programming realm. A tad more velocity might go a long way in making them more effective at longer ranges. One thing I would warn about for the Darth variants however is because you have less missiles with more damage each, every single miss is going to hurt a lot more than the Pokey variant which is more forgiving per missile. That being said you also have to land fewer shots with the Darth (or Fiend) variants to get the same amount of damage, so it kinda goes both ways. Just food for the thought.
Back before 1.7, we had accelerated missile turret variants, and they were the only ones I used. That along with the Falchion bonus to missile range made me the king of missile sniping.
On the ease of use thing, I want missiles to be the hardest turret to use in the game, but reward players who can land their shots effectively. In other words, you should have to practice with it to git gud. That's why I want small magazine, high damage.
And yeah, the tracking thing would be awesome, but it's not happening in this game, soooo....
Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta.
Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year.
The awnser is always XT missiles....
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5422
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 19:26:00 -
[24] - Quote
DarthJT5 wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:DarthJT5 wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Updated with some rough numbers showing Fiend's concept as well. Unfortunately because missiles are not very granular in their damage per shot its hard to get everything to line up evenly with each other. Further feedback would be appreciated. Should missile velocity be looked at as well? Idk if that's even applicable but it would make mid to long range engagements easier. Also, all these different versions we have would make GREAT variety for missile turrets We really just need Rattati to get on this thread so we can then get these ideas into reality Large Missiles do feel a tad slow. I'd actually love if we could get a light tracking effect on vehicles/installations but that's probably outside the possible programming realm. A tad more velocity might go a long way in making them more effective at longer ranges. One thing I would warn about for the Darth variants however is because you have less missiles with more damage each, every single miss is going to hurt a lot more than the Pokey variant which is more forgiving per missile. That being said you also have to land fewer shots with the Darth (or Fiend) variants to get the same amount of damage, so it kinda goes both ways. Just food for the thought. Back before 1.7, we had accelerated missile turret variants, and they were the only ones I used. That along with the Falchion bonus to missile range made me the king of missile sniping. On the ease of use thing, I want missiles to be the hardest turret to use in the game, but reward players who can land their shots effectively. In other words, you should have to practice with it to git gud. That's why I want small magazine, high damage. And yeah, the tracking thing would be awesome, but it's not happening in this game, soooo....
Yeah measuring what the actual velocity is ....more work than I want to do. The Accelerated Missiles were legit back in the day though.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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DarthJT5
Random Gunz
RISE of LEGION
321
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Posted - 2015.03.15 19:39:00 -
[25] - Quote
I don't think there's anything else to really talk about. TL:DR on my thoughts
Damage should be AT LEAST 450, I would prefer 500 (even numbers are cool)
RoF should be at least 300
Magazine size would be 6 for me, or 8 with a longer reload to keep sustained DPS the same
Reload time goes by your suggestion.
Velocity goes up
Blast radius kept the same, splash damage increased somewhat to account for lower ROF and magazine size
Variants come back, I think Pokey version would be a great variant for splash damage based missiles, but I can't remember what that variant was called. Fiends version I would really want, but with a few tweaks.
This would be the accelerated variant of old, so increased velocity
It would have a 24 missile magazine
Burst interval the same as what it was in 1.6
Damage lowered to 300-400 ish, little to no splash.
Reload speed is what we have currently, really friggin slow
Range increased to 275 M
EDIT: just remembered what your variant would be called Pokey, it would be the Fragmented variant
Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta.
Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year.
The awnser is always XT missiles....
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5422
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 19:56:00 -
[26] - Quote
I tweaked the Darth v1 missiles a bit more and I think how they're looking for a standard missiles variant.
Damage per magazine is slightly lower than the Pokey variants, burst DPS is slightly higher, and the sustained DPS fits neatly between blaster and railguns. 8 shots in the magazine, 6 second total reload time, 450 damage per missile, 3600 damage per salvo.
Also something to note, a Blaster and Rail can increase their damage before overheat by a decent margin using a heat sink. However a missile is only bound by reload speed which we obviously have a skill for, meaning that it's going to be more consistent in it's damage.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
|
DarthJT5
Random Gunz
RISE of LEGION
321
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 20:05:00 -
[27] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:I tweaked the Darth v1 missiles a bit more and I like how they're looking for a standard missiles variant.
Damage per magazine is slightly lower than the Pokey variants, burst DPS is slightly higher, and the sustained DPS fits neatly between blaster and railguns. 8 shots in the magazine, 6 second total reload time, 450 damage per missile, 3600 damage per salvo.
Also something to note, a Blaster and Rail can increase their damage before overheat by a decent margin using a heat sink. However a missile is only bound by reload speed which we obviously have a skill for, meaning that it's going to be more consistent in it's damage.
Can you think of any module that would be as beneficial to the missile as a heat sink is to the blaster/rail? Besides a damage mod of course, and the module would have to be a low slot because... Ya know.... There's nothing else useful there besides regs and fitting mods.
Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta.
Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year.
The awnser is always XT missiles....
|
DarthJT5
Random Gunz
RISE of LEGION
321
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 20:49:00 -
[28] - Quote
Oh, we both forgot about the fitting costs of Missiles being higher in both CPU and PG over the rail. That needs to be fixed
Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta.
Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year.
The awnser is always XT missiles....
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5423
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 21:06:00 -
[29] - Quote
DarthJT5 wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:I tweaked the Darth v1 missiles a bit more and I like how they're looking for a standard missiles variant.
Damage per magazine is slightly lower than the Pokey variants, burst DPS is slightly higher, and the sustained DPS fits neatly between blaster and railguns. 8 shots in the magazine, 6 second total reload time, 450 damage per missile, 3600 damage per salvo.
Also something to note, a Blaster and Rail can increase their damage before overheat by a decent margin using a heat sink. However a missile is only bound by reload speed which we obviously have a skill for, meaning that it's going to be more consistent in it's damage. Can you think of any module that would be as beneficial to the missile as a heat sink is to the blaster/rail? Besides a damage mod of course, and the module would have to be a low slot because... Ya know.... There's nothing else useful there besides regs and fitting mods.
Reload Modules would boost sustained DPS.
DarthJT5 wrote:Oh, we both forgot about the fitting costs of Missiles being higher in both CPU and PG over the rail. That needs to be fixed
Does anyone remember what the balance used to be? I seem to remember For PG Cost it was Blaster>Railgun>Missiles and for CPU it was Missiles>Railgun>Blaster. Does that sound right? It's been a while.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
|
DarthJT5
Random Gunz
RISE of LEGION
321
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 21:27:00 -
[30] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:DarthJT5 wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:I tweaked the Darth v1 missiles a bit more and I like how they're looking for a standard missiles variant.
Damage per magazine is slightly lower than the Pokey variants, burst DPS is slightly higher, and the sustained DPS fits neatly between blaster and railguns. 8 shots in the magazine, 6 second total reload time, 450 damage per missile, 3600 damage per salvo.
Also something to note, a Blaster and Rail can increase their damage before overheat by a decent margin using a heat sink. However a missile is only bound by reload speed which we obviously have a skill for, meaning that it's going to be more consistent in it's damage. Can you think of any module that would be as beneficial to the missile as a heat sink is to the blaster/rail? Besides a damage mod of course, and the module would have to be a low slot because... Ya know.... There's nothing else useful there besides regs and fitting mods. Reload Modules would boost sustained DPS. DarthJT5 wrote:Oh, we both forgot about the fitting costs of Missiles being higher in both CPU and PG over the rail. That needs to be fixed Does anyone remember what the balance used to be? I seem to remember For PG Cost it was Blaster>Railgun>Missiles and for CPU it was Missiles>Railgun>Blaster. Does that sound right? It's been a while.
Yes, it's right
Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta.
Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year.
The awnser is always XT missiles....
|
|
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DarthJT5
Random Gunz
RISE of LEGION
321
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 22:48:00 -
[31] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:DarthJT5 wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:I tweaked the Darth v1 missiles a bit more and I like how they're looking for a standard missiles variant.
Damage per magazine is slightly lower than the Pokey variants, burst DPS is slightly higher, and the sustained DPS fits neatly between blaster and railguns. 8 shots in the magazine, 6 second total reload time, 450 damage per missile, 3600 damage per salvo.
Also something to note, a Blaster and Rail can increase their damage before overheat by a decent margin using a heat sink. However a missile is only bound by reload speed which we obviously have a skill for, meaning that it's going to be more consistent in it's damage. Can you think of any module that would be as beneficial to the missile as a heat sink is to the blaster/rail? Besides a damage mod of course, and the module would have to be a low slot because... Ya know.... There's nothing else useful there besides regs and fitting mods. Reload Modules would boost sustained DPS. DarthJT5 wrote:Oh, we both forgot about the fitting costs of Missiles being higher in both CPU and PG over the rail. That needs to be fixed Does anyone remember what the balance used to be? I seem to remember For PG Cost it was Blaster>Railgun>Missiles and for CPU it was Missiles>Railgun>Blaster. Does that sound right? It's been a while.
If my calculations are correct and we don't change anything else, the Large Missile at Proto should cost around 600-700 PG.
Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta.
Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year.
The awnser is always XT missiles....
|
Jason1 Black
FACTION WARFARE ARMY
FACTION WARFARE ALLIANCE
8
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 02:31:00 -
[32] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:The Final Fantasy wrote:reason why i consider it to be a shotty av is because you kinda need to be in close to med range and beside using all your your missile one 1 go is a double edge sword if the other tank reacts fast enough and activates hardners your there running away shooting 2 per panic reload And while that's true, no one likes to die instantly without any time to react. As I've stated the old system basically was "Instantly kill the enemy, or die during the reload" which isn't very enjoyable for the losing side of that engagement. This model allows you to take a good chunk of HP out of the enemy before they can get their hardener up, but still allows you remain in a position capable of winning in case the initial ambush fails. The old system did not allow this second condition.
soooo, your making it easier for the missile to kill the other tank, not only do they do massive damage but they reload faster?
I love this game but it makes me rage so much.
Star wars battlefront 3 coming out, so excited!!
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5429
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 02:38:00 -
[33] - Quote
Jason1 Black wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:The Final Fantasy wrote:reason why i consider it to be a shotty av is because you kinda need to be in close to med range and beside using all your your missile one 1 go is a double edge sword if the other tank reacts fast enough and activates hardners your there running away shooting 2 per panic reload And while that's true, no one likes to die instantly without any time to react. As I've stated the old system basically was "Instantly kill the enemy, or die during the reload" which isn't very enjoyable for the losing side of that engagement. This model allows you to take a good chunk of HP out of the enemy before they can get their hardener up, but still allows you remain in a position capable of winning in case the initial ambush fails. The old system did not allow this second condition. soooo, your making it easier for the missile to kill the other tank, not only do they do massive damage but they reload faster?
They will do less damage per salvo overall. But recover between reloads faster.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
|
DarthJT5
Random Gunz
RISE of LEGION
324
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 04:14:00 -
[34] - Quote
* does rain dance to make Rattati appear*
Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta.
Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year.
The awnser is always XT missiles....
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5433
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 04:15:00 -
[35] - Quote
DarthJT5 wrote:* does rain dance to make Rattati appear*
Im amazed a rain of trolls hasn't already appeared.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
|
DarthJT5
Random Gunz
RISE of LEGION
325
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 04:22:00 -
[36] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:DarthJT5 wrote:* does rain dance to make Rattati appear* Im amazed a rain of trolls hasn't already appeared.
Where's all the normal people that tell us all of our ideas are garbage and that we don't tank?
Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta.
Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year.
The awnser is always XT missiles....
|
Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
219
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 06:09:00 -
[37] - Quote
So...missile turrets...
Well...what about making them a Burst Fire Weapon (Or rather a burst fire weapon that works more like the Combat Rifle)...with a 4 round burst, 12 or 16 rounds in the magazine, a burst interval of 0.2 and a fire rate of 0.1, Direct damage of about 485...reload speed of 8-10s?
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
Vehicle Re-vamp Proposal
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5441
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 08:01:00 -
[38] - Quote
Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:So...missile turrets...
Well...what about making them a Burst Fire Weapon (Or rather a burst fire weapon that works more like the Combat Rifle)...with a 4 round burst, 12 or 16 rounds in the magazine, a burst interval of 0.2 and a fire rate of 0.1, Direct damage of about 485...reload speed of 8-10s?
Lemme punch those numbers in tomorrow so we can see how it looks.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
|
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
7639
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 12:22:00 -
[39] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:DarthJT5 wrote:* does rain dance to make Rattati appear* Im amazed a rain of trolls hasn't already appeared.
You rang?
AV
|
DarthJT5
Random Gunz
329
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 12:46:00 -
[40] - Quote
Bump for visibility, not going to let this topic die.
Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta.
Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year.
The awnser is always XT missiles....
|
|
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Stefan Stahl
Seituoda Taskforce Command
1058
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 13:32:00 -
[41] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Missiles will be able to contend with other turrets even in a direct fight (no ambush volley) due to similar sustained DPS. I think this is the most important design goal and shouldn't be sacrificed under any circumstances.
As far as I can see your proposed stats seem to fit this nicely. Few things are going to die from a volley of ~3600 damage, but they will be hurting if they didn't have their hardeners on.
I wouldn't mind an even lower burst damage value. That way missiles become more focused on their delayed damage application rather than their burst damage application. But either solution is workable - and most importantly much superior to the current OHK-ambush style. |
DarthJT5
Random Gunz
331
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 14:09:00 -
[42] - Quote
Stefan Stahl wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Missiles will be able to contend with other turrets even in a direct fight (no ambush volley) due to similar sustained DPS. I think this is the most important design goal and shouldn't be sacrificed under any circumstances. As far as I can see your proposed stats seem to fit this nicely. Few things are going to die from a volley of ~3600 damage, but they will be hurting if they didn't have their hardeners on. I wouldn't mind an even lower burst damage value. That way missiles become more focused on their delayed damage application rather than their burst damage application. But either solution is workable - and most importantly much superior to the current OHK-ambush style.
But, if the missile goes the sustained damage route... Then there is no burst damage turret. Both the rail and the Blaster are good at sustained DPS, but not burst DPS. Missiles should be the ambush weapon, but still able to put up a fight head on, especially against armor vehicles.
Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta.
Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year.
The awnser is always XT missiles....
|
MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
2405
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 14:46:00 -
[43] - Quote
DarthJT5 wrote:Stefan Stahl wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Missiles will be able to contend with other turrets even in a direct fight (no ambush volley) due to similar sustained DPS. I think this is the most important design goal and shouldn't be sacrificed under any circumstances. As far as I can see your proposed stats seem to fit this nicely. Few things are going to die from a volley of ~3600 damage, but they will be hurting if they didn't have their hardeners on. I wouldn't mind an even lower burst damage value. That way missiles become more focused on their delayed damage application rather than their burst damage application. But either solution is workable - and most importantly much superior to the current OHK-ambush style. But, if the missile goes the sustained damage route... Then there is no burst damage turret. Both the rail and the Blaster are good at sustained DPS, but not burst DPS. Missiles should be the ambush weapon, but still able to put up a fight head on, especially against armor vehicles.
I'm fine with there not being a 'burst damage' turret. It's incredibly unfun design when you consider the cost of vehicles.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
|
DarthJT5
Random Gunz
332
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 14:54:00 -
[44] - Quote
MINA Longstrike wrote:DarthJT5 wrote:Stefan Stahl wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Missiles will be able to contend with other turrets even in a direct fight (no ambush volley) due to similar sustained DPS. I think this is the most important design goal and shouldn't be sacrificed under any circumstances. As far as I can see your proposed stats seem to fit this nicely. Few things are going to die from a volley of ~3600 damage, but they will be hurting if they didn't have their hardeners on. I wouldn't mind an even lower burst damage value. That way missiles become more focused on their delayed damage application rather than their burst damage application. But either solution is workable - and most importantly much superior to the current OHK-ambush style. But, if the missile goes the sustained damage route... Then there is no burst damage turret. Both the rail and the Blaster are good at sustained DPS, but not burst DPS. Missiles should be the ambush weapon, but still able to put up a fight head on, especially against armor vehicles. I'm fine with there not being a 'burst damage' turret. It's incredibly unfun design when you consider the cost of vehicles.
It's burst damage wouldn't be high enough to destroy any thank that has Over 4000 EHP, which means only sh!t fit tanks would be the only ones insta blapped. Well fit tanks will survive at least the first volley, then they have time to activate Hardeners ir boosters etc. while I reload, then the fight begins, with me having a significant advantage, which is fair seeing as how I ambushed them.
Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta.
Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year.
The awnser is always XT missiles....
|
Stefan Stahl
Seituoda Taskforce Command
1060
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 19:29:00 -
[45] - Quote
DarthJT5 wrote:But, if the missile goes the sustained damage route... Then there is no burst damage turret. Both the rail and the Blaster are good at sustained DPS, but not burst DPS. Missiles should be the ambush weapon, but still able to put up a fight head on, especially against armor vehicles. I thought of that too while writing that post.
I think both having a burst type of turret and a delayed damage type of weapon are worthwhile goals. Especially with the 'waves of opportunity' design going on right now I wouldn't want to miss a burst type turret, but there's a vacant spot for a low alpha weapon that does above-average DPS as a compensation for long travel time. |
DarthJT5
Random Gunz
333
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 19:42:00 -
[46] - Quote
Stefan Stahl wrote:DarthJT5 wrote:But, if the missile goes the sustained damage route... Then there is no burst damage turret. Both the rail and the Blaster are good at sustained DPS, but not burst DPS. Missiles should be the ambush weapon, but still able to put up a fight head on, especially against armor vehicles. I thought of that too while writing that post. I think both having a burst type of turret and a delayed damage type of weapon are worthwhile goals. Especially with the 'waves of opportunity' design going on right now I wouldn't want to miss a burst type turret, but there's a vacant spot for a low alpha weapon that does above-average DPS as a compensation for long travel time.
That's where the other two races turrets come in (hopefully) later when Rattati introduces Racial Hulls.
Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta.
Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year.
The awnser is always XT missiles....
|
Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
231
|
Posted - 2015.03.29 03:29:00 -
[47] - Quote
Bump!
had a chance to run those numbers pokey?
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
Vehicle Re-vamp Proposal
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5601
|
Posted - 2015.03.29 04:51:00 -
[48] - Quote
Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Bump!
had a chance to run those numbers pokey?
Bleh total brain fart and forgot to do that for you...my apologies.
The spreadsheet assumes full auto and I dont really want to revamp it to include burst fire. So I'm going to model it as the burst being a single missile with the refire rate including the entire duration of the burst and the damage including all 4 shots in the burst. So the numbers might look a little odd but they're equivalent to what you're talking about.
Damage per Burst
485*4 = 1940
Seconds per Burst
0.1*4 = 0.4 seconds
Seconds between Bursts
0.2 seconds
Total time for each Burst
0.4+0.2 = 0.6 seconds
Magazine Size
12/(4/burst) = 3 Bursts/Magazine
Reload Time
8 seconds
Spreadsheet has been updated accordingly
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
|
nelo kazuma
Da Short Buss Driving School
59
|
Posted - 2015.03.29 06:14:00 -
[49] - Quote
Nice proposition I like missle turrets myself n would like to see reload buff. Also maybe splash range just a little because my small missle turret has better splash than my large lol |
DarthJT5
Random Gunz
Rise Of Legion.
364
|
Posted - 2015.03.29 13:03:00 -
[50] - Quote
*does second rain dance to make Rattati appear*
Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta.
Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year.
The awnser is always XT missiles....
|
|
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Tebu Gan
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Bad Intention
1318
|
Posted - 2015.03.29 17:16:00 -
[51] - Quote
Man, missiles. I can never figure out what to do with these things. I will say though that I do like the idea of decreasing damage per shot, while increasing ROF and Reload speed.
Something often overlooked as well, they are effective out to 250M. Effectively applying damage at max range even against a large target is tricky though. A railgun is rather easy as you need to land just the one shot for a large chunk of damage.
Missiles on the other hand are more like blasters in their damage application. Well they are somewhat of the middle ground, where rails need a few shots to apply the same amount that a blaster would in many shots. They fall somewhat in the middle, not requiring as many shots as a blaster but more than a rail to achieve the same damage. Maybe there's a clue in that eh?
In any case, I can't exactly provide a whole lot. But, when we look at missiles under my concept with fewer rep cycles, I think missiles would stand a much better chance. Especially with your proposed changes.
Missiles have it the worst with that down time for reload. Nothing like unleashing a volley at a tank, only to watch it rep to full as you reload, knowing the next volley will meet to the same result.
Anyways, faster reload and better ROF will help break the reps cycles of current without a doubt, even if we don't change rep cycles. More sustained damage with less downtime between is the only way you can break these fast reps.
Figure the best thing to do now though is pull some numbers off your sheet and run through some scenarios. See how they would stack up.
4 rockets a second, max 12. So 3 seconds to unleash a full volley then 6 seconds to reload. 320 total damage per rocket.
Let's assume a double hardened / double repped maddie. 2650 + 305hp/s = total health. So I want to look at my hp value after first volley as well as my hp value when the second volley is ready.
320 * .41(2 hardener + explosive bonus) = 131.2 = 189 damage per rocket.
189 * 4 (rockets in one second) = 756 damage at one second.
1st second my health is at 2650 -756 =1894
2nd second my health is at (1895+305) -756 = 1444
3rd second my health is at (1444 + 305) -756 = 993
Then we have a 6 second reload time.
993 + (305*6) =2823 or tank is back to full health
Now clearly, a single damage mod will affect that first volley greatly, meaning insta gank to a double repped tank. So now I'm curious what happens against a single plate and rep, double hardened maddie.
177 rep rate and about 4500 armor
1st second 4500-756 = 3744
2nd second (3744 +177) -756 = 3165
3rd second (3165 +177) -756 = 2586
6 second reload 2586 + (177*6) = 3648
4500-3648 = 852 total damage done
4500 / 852 = about 5 volleys to kill assuming no damage modifiers or outside sources of damage.
And compare that to the 0 damage a double repped fit took, but the difference is the double repped fit would have been insta ganked with any modifiers.
Then again, it's not uncommon to miss a missile here or there, changing the scenario. Still don't like how those double reps end up if you end up missing just one shot.
Anyways, looks pretty solid. Bit lazy right now and don't want to look at current missiles to see how they are in the same scenario, maybe later.
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
|
Tebu Gan
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Bad Intention
1320
|
Posted - 2015.03.29 19:21:00 -
[52] - Quote
Simulated data
So, my spreadsheet skills are a bit rusty. After a bit of work though I think I've figured out how to display this data in sheet form of progression of a tank battle using your missile data.
If you could tell me how to improve my counters, to create some sort of loop, I would be ever so grateful. Going to try with the if function so I don't have to keep dragging my counters down to keep the data going.
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
|
DarthJT5
Random Gunz
Rise Of Legion.
364
|
Posted - 2015.03.29 19:31:00 -
[53] - Quote
Tebu Gan wrote:Simulated dataSo, my spreadsheet skills are a bit rusty. After a bit of work though I think I've figured out how to display this data in sheet form of progression of a tank battle using your missile data. If you could tell me how to improve my counters, to create some sort of loop, I would be ever so grateful. Going to try with the if function so I don't have to keep dragging my counters down to keep the data going.
Are you going to put in the other variants? I think that my variant (v1) was agreed to be what the normal missile variant would be, and then the others were going to be variants (if we ever got those). Pokey's would be suited more for AI work, with the bigger splash damage and higher RoF, mine is normal, and then a burst variant would be the best for AV.
Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta.
Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year.
The awnser is always XT missiles....
|
Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
234
|
Posted - 2015.03.29 22:01:00 -
[54] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Bump!
had a chance to run those numbers pokey? Bleh total brain fart and forgot to do that for you...my apologies. The spreadsheet assumes full auto and I dont really want to revamp it to include burst fire. So I'm going to model it as the burst being a single missile with the refire rate including the entire duration of the burst and the damage including all 4 shots in the burst. So the numbers might look a little odd but they're equivalent to what you're talking about. Damage per Burst 485*4 = 1940 Seconds per Burst 0.1*4 = 0.4 seconds Seconds between Bursts 0.2 seconds Total time for each Burst 0.4+0.2 = 0.6 seconds Magazine Size 12/(4/burst) = 3 Bursts/Magazine Reload Time 8 seconds Spreadsheet has been updated accordingly
Maybe I went a little too strong on the burst damage, but the idea would be that you change the Missile Turret to be the Industrial Strength Burst HMG/Combat Rifle...now with 100% more Explosions!
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
Vehicle Re-vamp Proposal
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5608
|
Posted - 2015.03.29 22:06:00 -
[55] - Quote
Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:
Maybe I went a little too strong on the burst damage, but the idea would be that you change the Missile Turret to be the Industrial Strength Burst HMG/Combat Rifle...now with 100% more Explosions!
I agree that the burst is still pretty high. The overall stats look a bit too much like previous models that didn't work very well. However I think it would be possible to tweak it, I just wanted to input it exactly as you said so you could see the end result.
I'll fiddle with it a bit and see if we can bring the end-stats a bit more in line with what we're shooting for. Glancing over it again it may be as simple and changing the delay between bursts.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
|
Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
240
|
Posted - 2015.03.31 10:31:00 -
[56] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:
Maybe I went a little too strong on the burst damage, but the idea would be that you change the Missile Turret to be the Industrial Strength Burst HMG/Combat Rifle...now with 100% more Explosions!
I agree that the burst is still pretty high. The overall stats look a bit too much like previous models that didn't work very well. However I think it would be possible to tweak it, I just wanted to input it exactly as you said so you could see the end result. I'll fiddle with it a bit and see if we can bring the end-stats a bit more in line with what we're shooting for. Glancing over it again it may be as simple and changing the delay between bursts.
Decreasing the Damage per missile to 430 might also do the trick there (In regards to the Burst Missile Proposal)...would still be a very strong weapon system though
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
Vehicle Re-vamp Proposal
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anaboop
Ahrendee Inc.
Negative-Feedback
165
|
Posted - 2015.03.31 12:13:00 -
[57] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:So in Delta, missiles were problematic. They were built around a concept that they had massive burst damage but awful reload which propagated a playstyle that relied heavily on killing the enemy in a single salvo, or dying on the reload. Not only was this really ****** for the pilot who just failed to finish off the last couple hundred HP and gets owned on the reload, but it was also very frustrating to armor tankers that would get taken from full HP to death in a matter of seconds with little time to react. Rattati responded to this by basically decreasing the burst DPS by lowering the fire rate, giving vehicles more time to react, which inadvertently make the "die on the reload" far more prevalent. The large missile went from overpowered to underpowered, which is understandable given the binary performance that the turret has. I felt we need to buff the Large Missile to somewhere between Delta and Echo, but also take a look at the core fundamentals of how missiles work. Here are the general calcs, and while this is just a first pass, provide constructive feedback but don't crawl up my ass if you don't like the numbers. It's a work in progress, so lets have a constructive conversation...I'm very reasonable if people are not asshats about it. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1H0Jb2GUobDx28eETJ-7SSD0z4f9VqfUKvFW1Lo_5eEQ/edit?usp=sharingGeneral Notes: Reduced Damage Per Magazine to remove "Insta-gank" mechanic Reverted Fire Rate to Delta levels Moved Burst DPS to levels between Delta and Echo Drastically reduced reload time (50% of Echo, 60% of Delta) Sustained DPS between Blaster and Railgun Burst DPS ~x2 that of a Blaster/Railgun High Burst DPS makes it ideal for an ambush weapon to catch enemy vehicles with their hardeners down. The first volley will not kill the target, but it will do considerable damage quickly and a quick reload allows them to recover quickly. Sustained damage is being considerably buffed from Echo to rest between that of a Blaster and a Railgun. Missiles will be able to contend with other turrets even in a direct fight (no ambush volley) due to similar sustained DPS. Also note that as stated, Sustained DPS for Blasters and Railguns only take into account heat buildup. After a handful of heat cycles the turret will have to reload, reducing sustained damage considerably. Missiles will not suffer from this issue as reload is the primary limiting factor in sustained DPS, not heat like Blasters/Rail. Also I'm aware that the Railguns are underpeforming currently. I agree that some changes need to be made to them, but for the sake of the current conversation I assumed no change.
First thing i want to add, in the first few sentences it says blow ur load or reload and die. (Thinking about that phrase) it looks as if reloading before echo was still the same deal, to long to reload.
What if instead of doing anything to missiles, do something to blaster and railgun, lowerclip size more reloading, bring them in par with missiles not the other way around.
We want longer ttk
More reloads Longer ttk
more reloads less infantry dying
The only thing that could be problematic (i can think of at the moment), AV weapons .
Anywho brain stpped thinking about there.
Fully sick Anaboop trading card
|
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
947
|
Posted - 2015.03.31 12:30:00 -
[58] - Quote
increase clip size to 14 rounds and increase reload speed. preferably by removing the 4 second reload delay
|
Tebu Gan
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Bad Intention
1327
|
Posted - 2015.03.31 14:47:00 -
[59] - Quote
DarthJT5 wrote:Tebu Gan wrote:Simulated dataSo, my spreadsheet skills are a bit rusty. After a bit of work though I think I've figured out how to display this data in sheet form of progression of a tank battle using your missile data. If you could tell me how to improve my counters, to create some sort of loop, I would be ever so grateful. Going to try with the if function so I don't have to keep dragging my counters down to keep the data going. Are you going to put in the other variants? I think that my variant (v1) was agreed to be what the normal missile variant would be, and then the others were going to be variants (if we ever got those). Pokey's would be suited more for AI work, with the bigger splash damage and higher RoF, mine is normal, and then a burst variant would be the best for AV.
I will, missiles are pretty easy to simulate. It will take some time for me to get a chance at it.
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
|
Derpty Derp
Dead Man's Game
964
|
Posted - 2015.03.31 16:40:00 -
[60] - Quote
I really think just removing the 4-6 second reload delay would be a good enough start, one thing at a time... Might even be enough to make it viable. |
|
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5650
|
Posted - 2015.03.31 20:05:00 -
[61] - Quote
Updated with Thaddeus's new damage values (430 damage x 4 missiles)
Also Deathwing, added the variant you suggested. I am a little concerned about it having both superior Burst and Sustained DPS as compared to both Blasters and Rails.
EDIT: Actually looking at it again, it will also have superior total damage before reload/overheat as compared to Blasters and Rails as well (assuming no heat sink)
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
|
Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
241
|
Posted - 2015.03.31 20:16:00 -
[62] - Quote
Ok...burst missile turret suggestion is looking at being a little more reasonable than what it was before...still a powerhouse...but less insta-ganky...I'll play around with the numbers more on my end...but comparatively it looks like a more realistic option now...still dangerously close to the LOLALPHA system of the past though...will post a gain with some new numbers when I think of them
I kind of would like to see the missile turret with all 14 tubes having something in them though XD
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
Vehicle Re-vamp Proposal
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5650
|
Posted - 2015.03.31 20:25:00 -
[63] - Quote
Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Ok...burst missile turret suggestion is looking at being a little more reasonable than what it was before...still a powerhouse...but less insta-ganky...I'll play around with the numbers more on my end...but comparatively it looks like a more realistic option now...still dangerously close to the LOLALPHA system of the past though...will post a gain with some new numbers when I think of them
I kind of would like to see the missile turret with all 14 tubes having something in them though XD
Well, magazine can be a function of damage and fire rate, so pretty much all of these proposals could be 14 missiles if the other values were adjusted.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
|
DarthJT5
Random Gunz
Rise Of Legion.
370
|
Posted - 2015.03.31 20:31:00 -
[64] - Quote
I really wish you were CPM pokey. Then maybe we could get this stuff to happen much quicker, if it happens at all.
Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta.
Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year.
The awnser is always XT missiles....
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5651
|
Posted - 2015.03.31 20:39:00 -
[65] - Quote
DarthJT5 wrote:I really wish you were CPM pokey. Then maybe we could get this stuff to happen much quicker, if it happens at all.
CPM2 elections probably coming up in the next handful of months. 
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
|
DarthJT5
Random Gunz
Rise Of Legion.
372
|
Posted - 2015.03.31 20:52:00 -
[66] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:DarthJT5 wrote:I really wish you were CPM pokey. Then maybe we could get this stuff to happen much quicker, if it happens at all. CPM2 elections probably coming up in the next handful of months.
You haz my vote. If you need a political team, count me in lol
Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta.
Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year.
The awnser is always XT missiles....
|
Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
3155
|
Posted - 2015.03.31 21:26:00 -
[67] - Quote
You don't use vehicles, why do you care?
Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5652
|
Posted - 2015.03.31 21:52:00 -
[68] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:You don't use vehicles, why do you care?
Why do I care? Well I actually enjoy missiles, both in Dust and EVE, and because I enjoy being more productive by helping to lead community discussions, unlike yourself who essentially tries to make as toxic of an environment as possible. Now please scurry back under your little troll bridge, the rest of us are having a constructive conversation.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
|
Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
3155
|
Posted - 2015.03.31 22:11:00 -
[69] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:You don't use vehicles, why do you care? Why do I care? Well I actually enjoy missiles, both in Dust and EVE, and because I enjoy being more productive by helping to lead community discussions, unlike yourself who essentially tries to make as toxic of an environment as possible. Now please scurry back under your little troll bridge, the rest of us are having a constructive conversation.
You play Dust? That's news to me.
Besides, spreadsheet =/= gameplay.
Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5652
|
Posted - 2015.03.31 22:14:00 -
[70] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:You don't use vehicles, why do you care? Why do I care? Well I actually enjoy missiles, both in Dust and EVE, and because I enjoy being more productive by helping to lead community discussions, unlike yourself who essentially tries to make as toxic of an environment as possible. Now please scurry back under your little troll bridge, the rest of us are having a constructive conversation. You play Dust? That's news to me. Besides, spreadsheet =/= gameplay.
Well as usual, many things are news to you. But that's ok. If all you want to do is play the game? Totally fine. But if you're incapable of adding anything useful to the conversation, please go away.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
|
|
|
DarthJT5
Random Gunz
Rise Of Legion.
373
|
Posted - 2015.03.31 22:48:00 -
[71] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:You don't use vehicles, why do you care?
Then, by your logic, nobody uses vehicles. If Pokey has stated MULTIPLE times that he drives tanks, then that PROBABLY means he's used them in some form. But, if that means he hasn't used vehicles in your opinion, how exactly do you use vehicles? I'm curious on how I can actually start using vehicles instead of just having them.
Enlighten us.
Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta.
Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year.
The awnser is always XT missiles....
|
Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
3155
|
Posted - 2015.03.31 23:01:00 -
[72] - Quote
That's exactly it, I play the game. I essentially play every single day. I know what vehicles are like, and I know what AV is like. You have no experience with vehicles, and probably little to none with AV.
I've broken down why your ideas are bad. I was a spreadsheet warrior for two spreadsheets, and that's all I need to make. Hulls and turrets. I've said many times before that AV should be a deterrent. Useless =/= deterrent. I hear all the time "oh, you want to make AV useless, what do you expect us to do?" For one thing, people could get a pilot in their squad. They want to squad with one? That's their problem. The game shouldn't be balanced around the very, very, very slim chance that one team will have a full squad's worth of pilots and the other will have a single person with AV. In my experience, which is far more extensive than yours, that has never happened since Uprising deployed, not a single time. On every single team I've ever faced in pubs and FW, at least two people have had PRO AV.
And I've said this plenty before: national corps that don't speak English as their first language do anything and everything to annihilate every single vehicle on the map, as well as prevent any others from being called in. This could include all of the following: tanks, AV, proxy mine traps. I've been taken out countless times by a squad of Russians, Spanish, Italians, GAC themselves, Germans, Brazilians, etc. Yet it's the native English speakers that are on here that forever have problems taking out tanks. It's not fair that they have to reload to destroy a tank. It's not fair that they can't solo a tank, and that they would be better off using teamwork. It's not fair that my > 60mil SP into vehicles can make short work of people that stand still with a total amount of 2mil SP into whichever AV weapon they prefer. They may have been using AV for a month or two, I've been using tanks for a year and half. Who do you think will win? The YOLO Mexican Jumping Bean with a plasma cannon, or the veteran vehicle pilot? I'm sure you'd like to say the YOLO AV person every single time.
I've sunk a hell of a lot of time and ISK into building up experience to make me as hard for AV and other vehicles to kill as possible, while also killing as many other vehicles and infantry as possible. I have the experience to hit a moving target while I'm moving, which is something I haven't seen many able to do. I have the experience to destroy someone using AV against me while I circle them with a blaster, which I haven't seen many able to do. I have the experience to snipe infantry with a railgun, which I haven't seen many able to do. I've evaded and destroyed YOLO jihad jeeps, which if you had any experience is not an easy thing to do.
Spreadsheet numbers based on imaginary controlled ideas does not translate to the game. You can work out what you wholeheartedly believe to be good numbers, but is trash on the battlefield. I still laugh at your ideas for pilot suits, having insane disadvantages for every single advantage the suit would give a given hull. With your ideas, I'm better off not getting them at all. I've also seen terrible ideas such as 3% to max ammo per level, and that's it. Class suits have 3 bonuses, and that previous idea is a single bonus. How is that fair?
Pilots have proposed ideas which would actually be useful to vehicles, such as the Gallente pilot suit adding 2% or 3% to rep rate per level, and the Caldari adding 2% or 3% to shield recharge rate per level. Another great bonus only available at level 5 would be slaved control of any unmanned small turrets on a vehicle.
The answer for balance is not to always nerf vehicles and buff AV. My answer would be HTFU and use teamwork. Do you really expect to solo someone like me, or Taka, or Doc, or Mary, or Morte, or any other highly experience pilot?
Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
|
Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
3155
|
Posted - 2015.03.31 23:03:00 -
[73] - Quote
DarthJT5 wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:You don't use vehicles, why do you care? Then, by your logic, nobody uses vehicles. If Pokey has stated MULTIPLE times that he drives tanks, then that PROBABLY means he's used them in some form. But, if that means he hasn't used vehicles in your opinion, how exactly do you use vehicles? I'm curious on how I can actually start using vehicles instead of just having them. Enlighten us.
He can state that he uses vehicles as many times as he wants. Thing is, by his words, he has no idea what he's talking about, so no, he doesn't use vehicles.
He asked me "why were vehicles better in Chromosome?" That right there tells me he knows absolutely nothing about vehicles, and has never used one. How much more solid evidence do I need?
Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
|
Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
3155
|
Posted - 2015.03.31 23:09:00 -
[74] - Quote
Another thing: getting mercilessly pounded by EZ-mode AV does not get my adrenaline going. A tank fight does. I'm sure it's mostly the same for other pilots, as they would much rather battle other tanks than run away from YOLO AV.
Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
|
DarthJT5
Random Gunz
Rise Of Legion.
373
|
Posted - 2015.03.31 23:14:00 -
[75] - Quote
Well, I guess we asked for it. The trolls have arrived Pokey.
Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta.
Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year.
The awnser is always XT missiles....
|
Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
3155
|
Posted - 2015.03.31 23:47:00 -
[76] - Quote
DarthJT5 wrote:Well, I guess we asked for it. The trolls have arrived Pokey.
Oh no, people with experience telling those without it how things are, the horror.
Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
|
Nocturnal Soul
Primordial Threat
6090
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 00:06:00 -
[77] - Quote
Make them like the missile installation....
(Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
The Incursions are back... and they're golden baby!
|
Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
3155
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 00:17:00 -
[78] - Quote
Nocturnal Soul wrote:Make them like the missile installation....
LOL no we had that and they were worse than useless.
Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
|
Nocturnal Soul
Primordial Threat
6091
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 00:30:00 -
[79] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Nocturnal Soul wrote:Make them like the missile installation.... LOL no we had that and they were worse than useless.
Oh, well your a tanker \o/
(Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
The Incursions are back... and they're golden baby!
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5656
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 03:22:00 -
[80] - Quote
DarthJT5 wrote:Well, I guess we asked for it. The trolls have arrived Pokey.
Eh don't worry about it, they have to make themselves feel better for a lack of usefulness by trying to discredit and devalue everything others say. Even Rattati has personally threatened to ban them for basically being useless when it comes to discussions so the best course of action is to just ignore them. They're not more than angry children throwing a temper tantrum and expecting the adults to take them seriously.
Just do what I do and giggle at their attempts at communication, it's actually pretty amusing after a while.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
|
|
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5656
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 03:27:00 -
[81] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:That's exactly it, I play the game. I essentially play every single day. I know what vehicles are like, and I know what AV is like. You have no experience with vehicles, and probably little to none with AV.
I've broken down why your ideas are bad. I was a spreadsheet warrior for two spreadsheets, and that's all I need to make. Hulls and turrets. I've said many times before that AV should be a deterrent. Useless =/= deterrent. I hear all the time "oh, you want to make AV useless, what do you expect us to do?" For one thing, people could get a pilot in their squad. They want to squad with one? That's their problem. The game shouldn't be balanced around the very, very, very slim chance that one team will have a full squad's worth of pilots and the other will have a single person with AV. In my experience, which is far more extensive than yours, that has never happened since Uprising deployed, not a single time. On every single team I've ever faced in pubs and FW, at least two people have had PRO AV.
And I've said this plenty before: national corps that don't speak English as their first language do anything and everything to annihilate every single vehicle on the map, as well as prevent any others from being called in. This could include all of the following: tanks, AV, proxy mine traps. I've been taken out countless times by a squad of Russians, Spanish, Italians, GAC themselves, Germans, Brazilians, etc. Yet it's the native English speakers that are on here that forever have problems taking out tanks. It's not fair that they have to reload to destroy a tank. It's not fair that they can't solo a tank, and that they would be better off using teamwork. It's not fair that my > 60mil SP into vehicles can make short work of people that stand still with a total amount of 2mil SP into whichever AV weapon they prefer. They may have been using AV for a month or two, I've been using tanks for a year and half. Who do you think will win? The YOLO Mexican Jumping Bean with a plasma cannon, or the veteran vehicle pilot? I'm sure you'd like to say the YOLO AV person every single time.
I've sunk a hell of a lot of time and ISK into building up experience to make me as hard for AV and other vehicles to kill as possible, while also killing as many other vehicles and infantry as possible. I have the experience to hit a moving target while I'm moving, which is something I haven't seen many able to do. I have the experience to destroy someone using AV against me while I circle them with a blaster, which I haven't seen many able to do. I have the experience to snipe infantry with a railgun, which I haven't seen many able to do. I've evaded and destroyed YOLO jihad jeeps, which if you had any experience is not an easy thing to do.
Spreadsheet numbers based on imaginary controlled ideas does not translate to the game. You can work out what you wholeheartedly believe to be good numbers, but is trash on the battlefield. I still laugh at your ideas for pilot suits, having insane disadvantages for every single advantage the suit would give a given hull. With your ideas, I'm better off not getting them at all. I've also seen terrible ideas such as 3% to max ammo per level, and that's it. Class suits have 3 bonuses, and that previous idea is a single bonus. How is that fair?
Pilots have proposed ideas which would actually be useful to vehicles, such as the Gallente pilot suit adding 2% or 3% to rep rate per level, and the Caldari adding 2% or 3% to shield recharge rate per level. Another great bonus only available at level 5 would be slaved control of any unmanned small turrets on a vehicle.
The answer for balance is not to always nerf vehicles and buff AV. My answer would be HTFU and use teamwork. Do you really expect to solo someone like me, or Taka, or Doc, or Mary, or Morte, or any other highly experience pilot?
I have no idea what any of this has to do with Large Missile Turrets, which is actually the topic of the thread. Now can you please go away before I have to report you for being disruptive and off topic?
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
|
DarthJT5
Random Gunz
Rise Of Legion.
375
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 03:40:00 -
[82] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:DarthJT5 wrote:Well, I guess we asked for it. The trolls have arrived Pokey. Eh don't worry about it, they have to make themselves feel better for a lack of usefulness by trying to discredit and devalue everything others say. Even Rattati has personally threatened to ban them for basically being useless when it comes to discussions so the best course of action is to just ignore them. They're not more than angry children throwing a temper tantrum and expecting the adults to take them seriously. Just do what I do and giggle at their attempts at communication, it's actually pretty amusing after a while.
Oh I was there lol. Best post by a game dev EVER. I'll try you take on the situation and just laugh from now on.
Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta.
Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year.
The awnser is always XT missiles....
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5656
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 03:46:00 -
[83] - Quote
DarthJT5 wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:DarthJT5 wrote:Well, I guess we asked for it. The trolls have arrived Pokey. Eh don't worry about it, they have to make themselves feel better for a lack of usefulness by trying to discredit and devalue everything others say. Even Rattati has personally threatened to ban them for basically being useless when it comes to discussions so the best course of action is to just ignore them. They're not more than angry children throwing a temper tantrum and expecting the adults to take them seriously. Just do what I do and giggle at their attempts at communication, it's actually pretty amusing after a while. Oh I was there lol. Best post by a game dev EVER. I'll try you take on the situation and just laugh from now on.
Now I would like to actually get a Rattati post in here, quite a few different proposals people have put forth with a couple different philosophies. I'd like to get some of his thoughts on what we have so far.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
|
DarthJT5
Random Gunz
Rise Of Legion.
375
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 03:51:00 -
[84] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:DarthJT5 wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:DarthJT5 wrote:Well, I guess we asked for it. The trolls have arrived Pokey. Eh don't worry about it, they have to make themselves feel better for a lack of usefulness by trying to discredit and devalue everything others say. Even Rattati has personally threatened to ban them for basically being useless when it comes to discussions so the best course of action is to just ignore them. They're not more than angry children throwing a temper tantrum and expecting the adults to take them seriously. Just do what I do and giggle at their attempts at communication, it's actually pretty amusing after a while. Oh I was there lol. Best post by a game dev EVER. I'll try you take on the situation and just laugh from now on. Now I would like to actually get a Rattati post in here, quite a few different proposals people have put forth with a couple different philosophies. I'd like to get some of his thoughts on what we have so far.
Don't look at me, I've done several Rattati Rain Dances to try to get him in here. There's no way he missed the thread, so idk why he doesn't at least acknowledge it's existence.
Not harping on him or anything, I just want my missiles to be viable...
Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta.
Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year.
The awnser is always XT missiles....
|
True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
17920
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 03:58:00 -
[85] - Quote
DarthJT5 wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:DarthJT5 wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:DarthJT5 wrote:Well, I guess we asked for it. The trolls have arrived Pokey. Eh don't worry about it, they have to make themselves feel better for a lack of usefulness by trying to discredit and devalue everything others say. Even Rattati has personally threatened to ban them for basically being useless when it comes to discussions so the best course of action is to just ignore them. They're not more than angry children throwing a temper tantrum and expecting the adults to take them seriously. Just do what I do and giggle at their attempts at communication, it's actually pretty amusing after a while. Oh I was there lol. Best post by a game dev EVER. I'll try you take on the situation and just laugh from now on. Now I would like to actually get a Rattati post in here, quite a few different proposals people have put forth with a couple different philosophies. I'd like to get some of his thoughts on what we have so far. Don't look at me, I've done several Rattati Rain Dances to try to get him in here. There's no way he missed the thread, so idk why he doesn't at least acknowledge it's existence. Not harping on him or anything, I just want my missiles to be viable...
Just make a snide comment about passive armour boosters or something.
GÇ£That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die.GÇ¥
-The Nameless City
|
Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
3155
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 04:43:00 -
[86] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:DarthJT5 wrote:Well, I guess we asked for it. The trolls have arrived Pokey. Eh don't worry about it, they have to make themselves feel better for a lack of usefulness by trying to discredit and devalue everything others say. Even Rattati has personally threatened to ban them for basically being useless when it comes to discussions so the best course of action is to just ignore them. They're not more than angry children throwing a temper tantrum and expecting the adults to take them seriously. Just do what I do and giggle at their attempts at communication, it's actually pretty amusing after a while.
Simply explaining why bad ideas are bad.
"Why were tanks better in Chrome?"
LOL
Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5658
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Posted - 2015.04.01 06:48:00 -
[87] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:DarthJT5 wrote:Well, I guess we asked for it. The trolls have arrived Pokey. Eh don't worry about it, they have to make themselves feel better for a lack of usefulness by trying to discredit and devalue everything others say. Even Rattati has personally threatened to ban them for basically being useless when it comes to discussions so the best course of action is to just ignore them. They're not more than angry children throwing a temper tantrum and expecting the adults to take them seriously. Just do what I do and giggle at their attempts at communication, it's actually pretty amusing after a while. Simply explaining why bad ideas are bad. "Why were tanks better in Chrome?" LOL
Well I don't expect you to actually read what was asked properly, but in regards to that specific question, I was asking for your own personal reason to why you thought a certain element in Chrome was better, not asking because I didn't know.
You're always complaining about your voice not being heard, so I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt and ask for an explanation of you opinion so I knew exactly why you felt that way. Again, I wasn't disagreeing with you, I just wanted to hear your side of the story and why you felt that way.
You see, I was actually trying to collect detailed feedback from you, even if you act like an *******. But honestly I don't really care what you think anymore, so please be a good little boy and get out of the way.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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Tebu Gan
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Bad Intention
1331
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Posted - 2015.04.01 16:05:00 -
[88] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:DarthJT5 wrote:Well, I guess we asked for it. The trolls have arrived Pokey. Eh don't worry about it, they have to make themselves feel better for a lack of usefulness by trying to discredit and devalue everything others say. Even Rattati has personally threatened to ban them for basically being useless when it comes to discussions so the best course of action is to just ignore them. They're not more than angry children throwing a temper tantrum and expecting the adults to take them seriously. Just do what I do and giggle at their attempts at communication, it's actually pretty amusing after a while. Simply explaining why bad ideas are bad. "Why were tanks better in Chrome?" LOL Well I don't expect you to actually read what was asked properly, but in regards to that specific question, I was asking for your own personal reason to why you thought a certain element in Chrome was better, not asking because I didn't know. You're always complaining about your voice not being heard, so I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt and ask for an explanation of you opinion so I knew exactly why you felt that way. Again, I wasn't disagreeing with you, I just wanted to hear your side of the story and why you felt that way. You see, I was actually trying to collect detailed feedback from you, even if you act like an *******. But honestly I don't really care what you think anymore, so please be a good little boy and get out of the way.
WORDS!!??
Words are for nerds, listen to the true tankers! Tanks will never be right unless they become near invincible to no less than 16 AV! Current is not nearly enough, as it takes at least 8 dedicated AV to deal with one tank! WE WANT 16!!
I care not for your rational reasoning's. Who needs reason when we have a tank that says FLUX YOUR REASONING. Words won't stand up to my tank!
Disclaimer:
The above post is respectful, contains no ranting, contains no personal attacks, contains no trolling, contains no racism, contains no discrimination, contains no profanity, contains no spamming. This post is an opinion and is related to DUST514. Albeit a poor and irrational opinion.
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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Derpty Derp
Dead Man's Game
970
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Posted - 2015.04.01 18:02:00 -
[89] - Quote
So the past 2 days I've been running only a missile Gunnlogi (as my tank of choice, I've done other things.) std hull, proto turret & mostly proto mods, think it's just the shield hardener that's basic (because I'm a scrub.)
I mostly only saw militia tanks, both kinds dropped in less than 1 set of missiles (to be expected.)
But I also came up against a few std and adv Madruga, mostly blaster turrets, but also some guy with shields stacked and a rail turret (random build, but I put some shields on my Madruga as well, lol.) They all died pretty easily... The only ones that didn't were where I went 1 tank v 2 tanks... And they still jumped out with av grenades/swarms... Thanks for that Heaven84 scrubs... I lost 2 tanks, they lost 5.
I'm tempted to say there isn't an issue with missiles (still sure the Gunni is fine) though I can't be sure what their fits were like, mostly had their hardeners up and were generally shooting back, when not spamming av grenades. |
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5659
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Posted - 2015.04.01 19:29:00 -
[90] - Quote
Derpty Derp wrote:So the past 2 days I've been running only a missile Gunnlogi (as my tank of choice, I've done other things.) std hull, proto turret & mostly proto mods, think it's just the shield hardener that's basic (because I'm a scrub.)
I mostly only saw militia tanks, both kinds dropped in less than 1 set of missiles (to be expected.)
But I also came up against a few std and adv Madruga, mostly blaster turrets, but also some guy with shields stacked and a rail turret (random build, but I put some shields on my Madruga as well, lol.) They all died pretty easily... The only ones that didn't were where I went 1 tank v 2 tanks... And they still jumped out with av grenades/swarms... Thanks for that Heaven84 scrubs... I lost 2 tanks, they lost 5.
I'm tempted to say there isn't an issue with missiles (still sure the Gunni is fine) though I can't be sure what their fits were like, mostly had their hardeners up and were generally shooting back, when not spamming av grenades.
Were the targets hardened or unhardened when you dropped the volley? Also do you recall the HP values? I'm curious to know what sort of fits they were running.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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CCP Frame
C C P
C C P Alliance
6094
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Posted - 2015.04.02 01:45:00 -
[91] - Quote
Guys please stay on topic and try not to derail conversation. Also, stay constructive with your posts.
CCP Frame, CCP Community Team
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DarthJT5
Random Gunz
Rise Of Legion.
381
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Posted - 2015.04.02 02:10:00 -
[92] - Quote
CCP Frame wrote:Guys please stay on topic and try not to derail conversation. Also, stay constructive with your posts.
Well, we're kinda just waiting for Dev feedback at this point. We have multiple sets of numbers and some spreadsheets, now we just need to see which direction you guys want to take with our data and opinions.
Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta.
Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year.
The awnser is always XT missiles....
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DarthJT5
Random Gunz
Rise Of Legion.
382
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Posted - 2015.04.02 17:58:00 -
[93] - Quote
Bump for visibility
Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta.
Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year.
The awnser is always XT missiles....
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
258
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Posted - 2015.04.04 16:33:00 -
[94] - Quote
Another Bump for visibility...Breakin Stuff...you've crunched some numbers on what's minimally necessary to make damage stick to an HAV, what do you think?
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
Vehicle Re-vamp Proposal
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Maiden selena MORTIMOR
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
471
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Posted - 2015.04.04 16:59:00 -
[95] - Quote
Why not make them more like a shotgun not enough damage to insta gank same awesome ROF from before ..but you can fire at any point in the reload
mortedeamor ....i'm her slave because Amarrians are the best in the sheets #stamina
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5674
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Posted - 2015.04.04 17:03:00 -
[96] - Quote
Maiden selena MORTIMOR wrote:Why not make them more like a shotgun not enough damage to insta gank same awesome ROF from before ..but you can fire at any point in the reload
Well you pretty much can, unless you're asking for the removal of the minimum reload time before the missiles are loaded one by one.
I'm not sure if that would really make the gun all that much better against vehicles, maybe a marginal increase to anti-infantry which wouldn't be a bad thing if done responsibly...but at the same time I wonder if it would better to pursue other means to improve AI in a responsible manner instead of just removing the base reload delay.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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DarthJT5
Random Gunz
Rise Of Legion.
383
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Posted - 2015.04.08 02:33:00 -
[97] - Quote
Mandatory bump
Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta.
Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year.
The awnser is always XT missiles....
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Godin Thekiller
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
3117
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Posted - 2015.04.21 00:30:00 -
[98] - Quote
I'll say what I've been saying for quite a while now:
Missiles are not really missiles, they are Rocket/Assault Missiles. They aren't built for low ROF, high alpha, long range that Missiles are built for, but they are built for high ROF, low damage, low range that Rocket/Assault Missiles are built for.Therefore, they should be designed like this:
Low reload time
Low Damage (both direct and splash)
High splash radius
So what I would do is reduce the damage some more, cut the reload in half (maybe more), bump that ammo up a lot, and buff the splash on that thing, so it can rain **** at people until they die. Reload and damage mods, and/or speed fit would make this thing work well, so not really a Squid turret perse, but definitely a Winmatar one
As for making actual Missiles, they need to be good at long range, and higher alpha, so in a sense become a rail but with missiles. projectiles has trouble being good at long range due to travel time usually. Lockons helps that, but it's been expressed and imo for good reason that a large turret being basically a swarm launcher is most likly a bad idea. Which is why I say, what if it was passive tracking? like, for example, you shoot it, and when it gets X distance form the target, it'll have a slight guidance to it (so not swarm launcher silly where it just turns on a dime, more like a actual missile turning), so it won't be a perfect shot, more of a helper.
click me
Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
2674
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Posted - 2015.04.21 01:06:00 -
[99] - Quote
Was mucking about with a missile tank earlier. Unless I can engage on a tank that doesn't move or is stuck on something, Missiles fire slowly enough that they're able to be completely juked out by moving back & forth (especially with a speed mod and god I hate this 'strategy'). I need to land ~90% of my missiles in a full burst with 2 damage mods to kill another armor tank... and finally due to missiles alternating sides when firing if another vehicle is driving in a straight line or curving around the missile tank shooting at them ~ half the missiles will miss outright.
I am not pleased, they are still the derpy all or nothing 'shotgun' fits of tanks.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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DiablosMajora
111
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Posted - 2015.04.21 01:08:00 -
[100] - Quote
Make them akin to swarms, with a lock on?
That, or laser guided: the longer you keep yourself trained on a target, the more accurate they become.
Prepare your angus
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
2675
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Posted - 2015.04.21 01:10:00 -
[101] - Quote
DiablosMajora wrote:Make them akin to swarms, with a lock on?
That, or laser guided: the longer you keep yourself trained on a target, the more accurate they become.
Lock-on weapons are not good things, they largely remove player skill from equations, which is bad.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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Godin Thekiller
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
3117
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Posted - 2015.04.21 01:22:00 -
[102] - Quote
DiablosMajora wrote:Make them akin to swarms, with a lock on?
That, or laser guided: the longer you keep yourself trained on a target, the more accurate they become.
That laser guided function would be terrible at long range, where missiles should be decent at.
and lcokons are just a **** no.
click me
Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
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Godin Thekiller
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
3117
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Posted - 2015.04.21 01:23:00 -
[103] - Quote
MINA Longstrike wrote:Was mucking about with a missile tank earlier. Unless I can engage on a tank that doesn't move or is stuck on something, Missiles fire slowly enough that they're able to be completely juked out by moving back & forth (especially with a speed mod and god I hate this 'strategy'). I need to land ~90% of my missiles in a full burst with 2 damage mods to kill another armor tank... and finally due to missiles alternating sides when firing if another vehicle is driving in a straight line or curving around the missile tank shooting at them ~ half the missiles will miss outright.
I am not pleased, they are still the derpy all or nothing 'shotgun' fits of tanks.
That's the blaster's job doe 
Again, I will point at my point. They are currently trying to be the best of both Missiels and Rockets/AM's, which is what is making them broke as hell like this.
click me
Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
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