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[Concept] Let's take a look at improving Large Missiles.

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DarthJT5 Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 317	Posted - 2015.03.15 14:13:00 - [1] - Quote On the reload time, when would you have the missiles "start" reloading? 2 seconds? 3? That may be something you want to add to the spreadsheet. Also, your total ammo count from Delta on the missiles is wrong. It used to be 150 ish, and honestly if it's going to have such lower damage then it's going to need like 250-300 missiles so we don't have to go back to the redline every 2 minutes. What do you think about keeping the damage the same, but knocking down magazine size to something like 10 or 8? Having 320 damage direct would make hitting infantry something they don't even have to worry about. Right now, or, at least before the RoF nerf, if some forge gunner is sniping me and I figure out where he is, I could kill him most of the time by hitting him 3-4 before he would start doing jumping jacks. Taking away the actual damage per missile would hurt anti infantry work that doesn't even work unless your really good with missiles. It also hurts the ability to fight Dropships, because usually your not going to get all 12 shots on target, and with these numbers hitting them with all 12 shots wouldn't even kill one before they just AB away. Not hating on your numbers, just giving constructive criticism. Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta. Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year. The awnser is always XT missiles....
DarthJT5 Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 321	Posted - 2015.03.15 18:50:00 - [2] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: DarthJT5 wrote: On the reload time, when would you have the missiles "start" reloading? 2 seconds? 3? That may be something you want to add to the spreadsheet. Also, your total ammo count from Delta on the missiles is wrong. It used to be 150 ish, and honestly if it's going to have such lower damage then it's going to need like 250-300 missiles so we don't have to go back to the redline every 2 minutes. What do you think about keeping the damage the same, but knocking down magazine size to something like 10 or 8? Having 320 damage direct would make hitting infantry something they don't even have to worry about. Right now, or, at least before the RoF nerf, if some forge gunner is sniping me and I figure out where he is, I could kill him most of the time by hitting him 3-4 before he would start doing jumping jacks. Taking away the actual damage per missile would hurt anti infantry work that doesn't even work unless your really good with missiles. It also hurts the ability to fight Dropships, because usually your not going to get all 12 shots on target, and with these numbers hitting them with all 12 shots wouldn't even kill one before they just AB away. Not hating on your numbers, just giving constructive criticism. Fixed the max ammo for Delta, thanks for pointing that out. I may have to bump that back up to Delta levels since the missile damage has decreased, but bear in mind that max ammo is not used in any calculations here. As for the damage per missile and magazine size....it honestly doesn't really matter to me. The key things with that are "How much damage is in the magazine" and "How quickly does it apply that damage". You can play around with the damage per shot and magazine size the manipulate the first, and then the fire rate to manipulate the second, and still get similar results overall. I actually did consider the Anti-Infantry applications, and you are very correct that this would make it harder to kill infantry. However I also think that at the lower damage levels, you can afford to ramp up the splash radius a bit and make the weapon a bit less dependent on direct hits, placing the Missiles between Blasters and Rails in terms of effectiveness against infantry. But like I said before either model would work with the right number tweaking, I'll do a version under your suggestion so we can see how it looks. As for the granular reload speed I haven't put a ton of thought into it. From my understanding the Delta model used a 4 second base and then 0.5 seconds per missile for a total of 10 seconds. Obviously with a 6 second reload we can't use 0.5 seconds. Perhaps 3 second base with a 0.25 per missile reload speed? That sounds like a good reload speed to me. The only other thing I would change is having RoF at least at 300. This 200 right now does not feel natural to my trigger finger (I've always semi-auto fired it due to the full auto not always working, and because it's much more accurate that way). 400 RPM feels right, but 300 is acceptable since we're trying to keep its DPS at a reasonable level. What do you think it's max DPS should be so we're on the same page? EDIT: didn't see your edit before I posted lol, will see what else you've added Double EDIT: yes, magazine needs to be even. If it's lower than 8 it's gotta be 6. As long as it had some increased damage to keep it the same that's fine Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta. Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year. The awnser is always XT missiles....
DarthJT5 Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 321	Posted - 2015.03.15 19:00:00 - [3] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: DarthJT5 wrote: That sounds like a good reload speed to me. The only other thing I would change is having RoF at least at 300. This 200 right now does not feel natural to my trigger finger (I've always semi-auto fired it due to the full auto not always working, and because it's much more accurate that way). 400 RPM feels right, but 300 is acceptable since we're trying to keep its DPS at a reasonable level. What do you think it's max DPS should be so we're on the same page? I think you may be misreading the sheet? I have 3 proposals on there now (my original, and two variants of what you talked about) and they all feature 300-400 RPM As for DPS, I don't want to get too much higher than 2000 since thats already double what a Blaster and Rail can do. That's the nature of the burst damage. The more important factor here though is damage per salvo and sustained DPS, which are manipulated by magazine and damage per shot, as well as reload speed. Sustained DPS needs to be inferior to a Blaster but better than a rail, which is about where it's sitting right now. As for total damage per magazine that's largely a function of eHP on other vehicles. Tentatively I've been keeping it below 4000 intentionally (2/3 of where it was in Delta) but that's of course up for discussion. You do at least understand my concern in wanting to keep it lower. DUST Fiend wrote: Why not make large missiles fire in 4 round salvos? That way it applies a lot of damage rapidly within the salvo, then waits a second or two, then shoots again. This gives some warning to people, still lets missiles deal crazy damage, yet may actually make them a little harder to use because you have to be sure when you pull that trigger. I would be fine with that as well, though mind you that sheds more of the burst damage in exchange for more reliable sustained damage. I can spin up some numbers for that as well. The spreadsheet hadn't updated when I had posted my last response, numbers look good Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta. Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year. The awnser is always XT missiles....
DarthJT5 Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 321	Posted - 2015.03.15 19:10:00 - [4] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Updated with some rough numbers showing Fiend's concept as well. Unfortunately because missiles are not very granular in their damage per shot its hard to get everything to line up evenly with each other. Further feedback would be appreciated. Should missile velocity be looked at as well? Idk if that's even applicable but it would make mid to long range engagements easier. Also, all these different versions we have would make GREAT variety for missile turrets We really just need Rattati to get on this thread so we can then get these ideas into reality Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta. Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year. The awnser is always XT missiles....
DarthJT5 Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 321	Posted - 2015.03.15 19:22:00 - [5] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: DarthJT5 wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Updated with some rough numbers showing Fiend's concept as well. Unfortunately because missiles are not very granular in their damage per shot its hard to get everything to line up evenly with each other. Further feedback would be appreciated. Should missile velocity be looked at as well? Idk if that's even applicable but it would make mid to long range engagements easier. Also, all these different versions we have would make GREAT variety for missile turrets We really just need Rattati to get on this thread so we can then get these ideas into reality Large Missiles do feel a tad slow. I'd actually love if we could get a light tracking effect on vehicles/installations but that's probably outside the possible programming realm. A tad more velocity might go a long way in making them more effective at longer ranges. One thing I would warn about for the Darth variants however is because you have less missiles with more damage each, every single miss is going to hurt a lot more than the Pokey variant which is more forgiving per missile. That being said you also have to land fewer shots with the Darth (or Fiend) variants to get the same amount of damage, so it kinda goes both ways. Just food for the thought. Back before 1.7, we had accelerated missile turret variants, and they were the only ones I used. That along with the Falchion bonus to missile range made me the king of missile sniping. On the ease of use thing, I want missiles to be the hardest turret to use in the game, but reward players who can land their shots effectively. In other words, you should have to practice with it to git gud. That's why I want small magazine, high damage. And yeah, the tracking thing would be awesome, but it's not happening in this game, soooo.... Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta. Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year. The awnser is always XT missiles....
DarthJT5 Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 321	Posted - 2015.03.15 19:39:00 - [6] - Quote I don't think there's anything else to really talk about. TL:DR on my thoughts Damage should be AT LEAST 450, I would prefer 500 (even numbers are cool) RoF should be at least 300 Magazine size would be 6 for me, or 8 with a longer reload to keep sustained DPS the same Reload time goes by your suggestion. Velocity goes up Blast radius kept the same, splash damage increased somewhat to account for lower ROF and magazine size Variants come back, I think Pokey version would be a great variant for splash damage based missiles, but I can't remember what that variant was called. Fiends version I would really want, but with a few tweaks. This would be the accelerated variant of old, so increased velocity It would have a 24 missile magazine Burst interval the same as what it was in 1.6 Damage lowered to 300-400 ish, little to no splash. Reload speed is what we have currently, really friggin slow Range increased to 275 M EDIT: just remembered what your variant would be called Pokey, it would be the Fragmented variant Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta. Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year. The awnser is always XT missiles....
DarthJT5 Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 321	Posted - 2015.03.15 20:05:00 - [7] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: I tweaked the Darth v1 missiles a bit more and I like how they're looking for a standard missiles variant. Damage per magazine is slightly lower than the Pokey variants, burst DPS is slightly higher, and the sustained DPS fits neatly between blaster and railguns. 8 shots in the magazine, 6 second total reload time, 450 damage per missile, 3600 damage per salvo. Also something to note, a Blaster and Rail can increase their damage before overheat by a decent margin using a heat sink. However a missile is only bound by reload speed which we obviously have a skill for, meaning that it's going to be more consistent in it's damage. Can you think of any module that would be as beneficial to the missile as a heat sink is to the blaster/rail? Besides a damage mod of course, and the module would have to be a low slot because... Ya know.... There's nothing else useful there besides regs and fitting mods. Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta. Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year. The awnser is always XT missiles....
DarthJT5 Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 321	Posted - 2015.03.15 20:49:00 - [8] - Quote Oh, we both forgot about the fitting costs of Missiles being higher in both CPU and PG over the rail. That needs to be fixed Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta. Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year. The awnser is always XT missiles....
DarthJT5 Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 321	Posted - 2015.03.15 21:27:00 - [9] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: DarthJT5 wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: I tweaked the Darth v1 missiles a bit more and I like how they're looking for a standard missiles variant. Damage per magazine is slightly lower than the Pokey variants, burst DPS is slightly higher, and the sustained DPS fits neatly between blaster and railguns. 8 shots in the magazine, 6 second total reload time, 450 damage per missile, 3600 damage per salvo. Also something to note, a Blaster and Rail can increase their damage before overheat by a decent margin using a heat sink. However a missile is only bound by reload speed which we obviously have a skill for, meaning that it's going to be more consistent in it's damage. Can you think of any module that would be as beneficial to the missile as a heat sink is to the blaster/rail? Besides a damage mod of course, and the module would have to be a low slot because... Ya know.... There's nothing else useful there besides regs and fitting mods. Reload Modules would boost sustained DPS. DarthJT5 wrote: Oh, we both forgot about the fitting costs of Missiles being higher in both CPU and PG over the rail. That needs to be fixed Does anyone remember what the balance used to be? I seem to remember For PG Cost it was Blaster>Railgun>Missiles and for CPU it was Missiles>Railgun>Blaster. Does that sound right? It's been a while. Yes, it's right Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta. Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year. The awnser is always XT missiles....
DarthJT5 Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 321	Posted - 2015.03.15 22:48:00 - [10] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: DarthJT5 wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: I tweaked the Darth v1 missiles a bit more and I like how they're looking for a standard missiles variant. Damage per magazine is slightly lower than the Pokey variants, burst DPS is slightly higher, and the sustained DPS fits neatly between blaster and railguns. 8 shots in the magazine, 6 second total reload time, 450 damage per missile, 3600 damage per salvo. Also something to note, a Blaster and Rail can increase their damage before overheat by a decent margin using a heat sink. However a missile is only bound by reload speed which we obviously have a skill for, meaning that it's going to be more consistent in it's damage. Can you think of any module that would be as beneficial to the missile as a heat sink is to the blaster/rail? Besides a damage mod of course, and the module would have to be a low slot because... Ya know.... There's nothing else useful there besides regs and fitting mods. Reload Modules would boost sustained DPS. DarthJT5 wrote: Oh, we both forgot about the fitting costs of Missiles being higher in both CPU and PG over the rail. That needs to be fixed Does anyone remember what the balance used to be? I seem to remember For PG Cost it was Blaster>Railgun>Missiles and for CPU it was Missiles>Railgun>Blaster. Does that sound right? It's been a while. If my calculations are correct and we don't change anything else, the Large Missile at Proto should cost around 600-700 PG. Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta. Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year. The awnser is always XT missiles....

DarthJT5 Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 324	Posted - 2015.03.16 04:14:00 - [11] - Quote * does rain dance to make Rattati appear* Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta. Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year. The awnser is always XT missiles....
DarthJT5 Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 325	Posted - 2015.03.16 04:22:00 - [12] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: DarthJT5 wrote: * does rain dance to make Rattati appear* Im amazed a rain of trolls hasn't already appeared. Where's all the normal people that tell us all of our ideas are garbage and that we don't tank? Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta. Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year. The awnser is always XT missiles....
DarthJT5 Random Gunz 329	Posted - 2015.03.17 12:46:00 - [13] - Quote Bump for visibility, not going to let this topic die. Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta. Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year. The awnser is always XT missiles....
DarthJT5 Random Gunz 331	Posted - 2015.03.17 14:09:00 - [14] - Quote Stefan Stahl wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Missiles will be able to contend with other turrets even in a direct fight (no ambush volley) due to similar sustained DPS. I think this is the most important design goal and shouldn't be sacrificed under any circumstances. As far as I can see your proposed stats seem to fit this nicely. Few things are going to die from a volley of ~3600 damage, but they will be hurting if they didn't have their hardeners on. I wouldn't mind an even lower burst damage value. That way missiles become more focused on their delayed damage application rather than their burst damage application. But either solution is workable - and most importantly much superior to the current OHK-ambush style. But, if the missile goes the sustained damage route... Then there is no burst damage turret. Both the rail and the Blaster are good at sustained DPS, but not burst DPS. Missiles should be the ambush weapon, but still able to put up a fight head on, especially against armor vehicles. Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta. Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year. The awnser is always XT missiles....
DarthJT5 Random Gunz 332	Posted - 2015.03.17 14:54:00 - [15] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: DarthJT5 wrote: Stefan Stahl wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Missiles will be able to contend with other turrets even in a direct fight (no ambush volley) due to similar sustained DPS. I think this is the most important design goal and shouldn't be sacrificed under any circumstances. As far as I can see your proposed stats seem to fit this nicely. Few things are going to die from a volley of ~3600 damage, but they will be hurting if they didn't have their hardeners on. I wouldn't mind an even lower burst damage value. That way missiles become more focused on their delayed damage application rather than their burst damage application. But either solution is workable - and most importantly much superior to the current OHK-ambush style. But, if the missile goes the sustained damage route... Then there is no burst damage turret. Both the rail and the Blaster are good at sustained DPS, but not burst DPS. Missiles should be the ambush weapon, but still able to put up a fight head on, especially against armor vehicles. I'm fine with there not being a 'burst damage' turret. It's incredibly unfun design when you consider the cost of vehicles. It's burst damage wouldn't be high enough to destroy any thank that has Over 4000 EHP, which means only sh!t fit tanks would be the only ones insta blapped. Well fit tanks will survive at least the first volley, then they have time to activate Hardeners ir boosters etc. while I reload, then the fight begins, with me having a significant advantage, which is fair seeing as how I ambushed them. Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta. Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year. The awnser is always XT missiles....
DarthJT5 Random Gunz 333	Posted - 2015.03.17 19:42:00 - [16] - Quote Stefan Stahl wrote: DarthJT5 wrote: But, if the missile goes the sustained damage route... Then there is no burst damage turret. Both the rail and the Blaster are good at sustained DPS, but not burst DPS. Missiles should be the ambush weapon, but still able to put up a fight head on, especially against armor vehicles. I thought of that too while writing that post. I think both having a burst type of turret and a delayed damage type of weapon are worthwhile goals. Especially with the 'waves of opportunity' design going on right now I wouldn't want to miss a burst type turret, but there's a vacant spot for a low alpha weapon that does above-average DPS as a compensation for long travel time. That's where the other two races turrets come in (hopefully) later when Rattati introduces Racial Hulls. Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta. Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year. The awnser is always XT missiles....
DarthJT5 Random Gunz Rise Of Legion. 364	Posted - 2015.03.29 13:03:00 - [17] - Quote does second rain dance to make Rattati appear Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta. Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year. The awnser is always XT missiles....
DarthJT5 Random Gunz Rise Of Legion. 364	Posted - 2015.03.29 19:31:00 - [18] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: Simulated data So, my spreadsheet skills are a bit rusty. After a bit of work though I think I've figured out how to display this data in sheet form of progression of a tank battle using your missile data. If you could tell me how to improve my counters, to create some sort of loop, I would be ever so grateful. Going to try with the if function so I don't have to keep dragging my counters down to keep the data going. Are you going to put in the other variants? I think that my variant (v1) was agreed to be what the normal missile variant would be, and then the others were going to be variants (if we ever got those). Pokey's would be suited more for AI work, with the bigger splash damage and higher RoF, mine is normal, and then a burst variant would be the best for AV. Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta. Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year. The awnser is always XT missiles....
DarthJT5 Random Gunz Rise Of Legion. 370	Posted - 2015.03.31 20:31:00 - [19] - Quote I really wish you were CPM pokey. Then maybe we could get this stuff to happen much quicker, if it happens at all. Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta. Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year. The awnser is always XT missiles....
DarthJT5 Random Gunz Rise Of Legion. 372	Posted - 2015.03.31 20:52:00 - [20] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: DarthJT5 wrote: I really wish you were CPM pokey. Then maybe we could get this stuff to happen much quicker, if it happens at all. CPM2 elections probably coming up in the next handful of months. You haz my vote. If you need a political team, count me in lol Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta. Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year. The awnser is always XT missiles....

DarthJT5 Random Gunz Rise Of Legion. 373	Posted - 2015.03.31 22:48:00 - [21] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: You don't use vehicles, why do you care? Then, by your logic, nobody uses vehicles. If Pokey has stated MULTIPLE times that he drives tanks, then that PROBABLY means he's used them in some form. But, if that means he hasn't used vehicles in your opinion, how exactly do you use vehicles? I'm curious on how I can actually start using vehicles instead of just having them. Enlighten us. Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta. Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year. The awnser is always XT missiles....
DarthJT5 Random Gunz Rise Of Legion. 373	Posted - 2015.03.31 23:14:00 - [22] - Quote Well, I guess we asked for it. The trolls have arrived Pokey. Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta. Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year. The awnser is always XT missiles....
DarthJT5 Random Gunz Rise Of Legion. 375	Posted - 2015.04.01 03:40:00 - [23] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: DarthJT5 wrote: Well, I guess we asked for it. The trolls have arrived Pokey. Eh don't worry about it, they have to make themselves feel better for a lack of usefulness by trying to discredit and devalue everything others say. Even Rattati has personally threatened to ban them for basically being useless when it comes to discussions so the best course of action is to just ignore them. They're not more than angry children throwing a temper tantrum and expecting the adults to take them seriously. Just do what I do and giggle at their attempts at communication, it's actually pretty amusing after a while. Oh I was there lol. Best post by a game dev EVER. I'll try you take on the situation and just laugh from now on. Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta. Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year. The awnser is always XT missiles....
DarthJT5 Random Gunz Rise Of Legion. 375	Posted - 2015.04.01 03:51:00 - [24] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: DarthJT5 wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: DarthJT5 wrote: Well, I guess we asked for it. The trolls have arrived Pokey. Eh don't worry about it, they have to make themselves feel better for a lack of usefulness by trying to discredit and devalue everything others say. Even Rattati has personally threatened to ban them for basically being useless when it comes to discussions so the best course of action is to just ignore them. They're not more than angry children throwing a temper tantrum and expecting the adults to take them seriously. Just do what I do and giggle at their attempts at communication, it's actually pretty amusing after a while. Oh I was there lol. Best post by a game dev EVER. I'll try you take on the situation and just laugh from now on. Now I would like to actually get a Rattati post in here, quite a few different proposals people have put forth with a couple different philosophies. I'd like to get some of his thoughts on what we have so far. Don't look at me, I've done several Rattati Rain Dances to try to get him in here. There's no way he missed the thread, so idk why he doesn't at least acknowledge it's existence. Not harping on him or anything, I just want my missiles to be viable... Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta. Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year. The awnser is always XT missiles....
DarthJT5 Random Gunz Rise Of Legion. 381	Posted - 2015.04.02 02:10:00 - [25] - Quote CCP Frame wrote: Guys please stay on topic and try not to derail conversation. Also, stay constructive with your posts. Well, we're kinda just waiting for Dev feedback at this point. We have multiple sets of numbers and some spreadsheets, now we just need to see which direction you guys want to take with our data and opinions. Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta. Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year. The awnser is always XT missiles....
DarthJT5 Random Gunz Rise Of Legion. 382	Posted - 2015.04.02 17:58:00 - [26] - Quote Bump for visibility Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta. Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year. The awnser is always XT missiles....
DarthJT5 Random Gunz Rise Of Legion. 383	Posted - 2015.04.08 02:33:00 - [27] - Quote Mandatory bump Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta. Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year. The awnser is always XT missiles....