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Baal Omniscient wrote:

Nocturnal Soul wrote:

LUGMOS wrote:

Nocturnal Soul wrote:

The TAC and Scr have the same RoF

Sure they may, but the ScR is easier to handle, thus making it better at damage application. Also, it does not have a charge function, which is an essential part of the ScR's attack. Charge up and lead with an enormous hit, obliterate armor and whatever shields may be left with a barrage of shots.

Which is balanced because it wouldn't be able to do that to more than 1 person at a time.

Last time I checked, we didn't balance weapons on who we wreck immediately after our first enemy encounter Noc. It's a long range alpha damage weapon with a huge RoF, has one of the best sights in the game, has almost zero recoil (or rather it's recoil is so easily handled that it's almost completely inconsequential), has an amazing hipfire, has a charge shot that can completely strip the shields off of all but the heaviest of shield tank builds with only a couple of followup shots (obviously less needed with proficiency) and does far more damage to armor than it should.

That cannot be balanced out with 'but this assrapeage can only be used on one or two people at a time before I have to let my squadmates take a turn shooting people while my gun has a nice long 3 second cooldown'.

And honestly, to those who do, comparing it to the TAR is just shameful. The gap between them has been reduced, but for a skilled user the Scr wins hands down over the TAR every time.

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Dreis Shadowweaver T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K RISE of LEGION 2137	Posted - 2015.03.11 17:25:00 - [31] - Quote You should always try the weapon before claiming it's OP. I suspect a lot of people in this thread have never used a SCR above MLT. Creator of the 'Nova Knifers United' channel Caldari blood, Minmatar heart <3 Dreis(Ishukone Nova Knives)CCPArchduke
SgtMajSquish MLBJ Consolidated Dust 364	Posted - 2015.03.11 17:28:00 - [32] - Quote Dreis Shadowweaver wrote: You should always try the weapon before claiming it's OP. I suspect a lot of people in this thread have never used a SCR above MLT. i think a slight decrease in RoF is needed to combat the turbo controllers that are growing in popularity but other than that abuse i have no issue with it What role does the shotgun have in team play? NONE. Remove it.
Alena Ventrallis Intara Direct Action Caldari State 2627	Posted - 2015.03.11 17:29:00 - [33] - Quote You're right, scramblers are OP! That's why people are skilling into AmAssault and scramblers instead of MinAssault and combat rifles! Wait... Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
tal mrak-thanl Aethan Dor 201	Posted - 2015.03.11 17:51:00 - [34] - Quote Everybody skilling into Minmatar assaults and fitting ferroscales probably has a lot to do with the perception that the ScR is OP. Anyway, I could see the Amarr Assault being the next fotm, if the AScR buff is as big as it sounds.
Vesta Opalus T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K RISE of LEGION 490	Posted - 2015.03.11 18:02:00 - [35] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: You're right, scramblers are OP! That's why people are skilling into AmAssault and scramblers instead of MinAssault and combat rifles! Wait... Well Ive been trying to open up some discussion of the min assault, because I think its overpowered in some kind of less noticeable ways (such as stamina gain) that make it very good overall, but that doesnt really mean anything to the scrambler rifle discussion. The thing is overpowered, Im not sure why anyone is convinced it isnt. Im using it with a normal non-turbo controller with no damage mods on a non-amarr assault, and its still an absolute rapetrian on anything that isnt sitting at like 800 armor health.
Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2189	Posted - 2015.03.11 19:13:00 - [36] - Quote Nocturnal Soul wrote: LUGMOS wrote: Nocturnal Soul wrote: The TAC and Scr have the same RoF Sure they may, but the ScR is easier to handle, thus making it better at damage application. Also, it does not have a charge function, which is an essential part of the ScR's attack. Charge up and lead with an enormous hit, obliterate armor and whatever shields may be left with a barrage of shots. Which is balanced because it wouldn't be able to do that to more than 1 person at a time. Last time I checked, we didn't balance weapons on who we wreck immediately after our first enemy encounter Noc. It's a long range alpha damage weapon with a huge RoF, has one of the best sights in the game, has almost zero recoil, has an amazing hipfire, has a charge shot that can completely strip the shields off of all but the heaviest of shield tank builds and does far more damage to armor than it should. That cannot be balanced out with 'but this assrapeage can only be used on one or two people at a time before I have to let my squadmates take a turn shooting people while my gun has a nice long 3 second cooldown' and honestly comparing it to the TAR is just shameful. The gap between them has been reduced, but for a skilled user the Scr wins hands down over the TAR every time. Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
xxwhitedevilxx M Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 2953	Posted - 2015.03.11 21:01:00 - [37] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: Nocturnal Soul wrote: LUGMOS wrote: Nocturnal Soul wrote: The TAC and Scr have the same RoF Sure they may, but the ScR is easier to handle, thus making it better at damage application. Also, it does not have a charge function, which is an essential part of the ScR's attack. Charge up and lead with an enormous hit, obliterate armor and whatever shields may be left with a barrage of shots. Which is balanced because it wouldn't be able to do that to more than 1 person at a time. Last time I checked, we didn't balance weapons on who we wreck immediately after our first enemy encounter Noc. It's a long range alpha damage weapon with a huge RoF, has one of the best sights in the game, has almost zero recoil (or rather it's recoil is so easily handled that it's almost completely inconsequential), has an amazing hipfire, has a charge shot that can completely strip the shields off of all but the heaviest of shield tank builds with only a couple of followup shots (obviously less needed with proficiency) and does far more damage to armor than it should. That cannot be balanced out with 'but this assrapeage can only be used on one or two people at a time before I have to let my squadmates take a turn shooting people while my gun has a nice long 3 second cooldown'. And honestly, to those who do, comparing it to the TAR is just shameful. The gap between them has been reduced, but for a skilled user the Scr wins hands down over the TAR every time. I sometimes use a Scrambler over a tac for only one reason: the charged shot. If there were no charge shot I would always prefer any Rail Rifle or the Tac. But that's just me, I find the tac much more comfortable to use at any range. Guinea Dust Bunnies are watching you, CCP Rouge.
Operative 1174 Uuali Y.A.M.A.H 479	Posted - 2015.03.11 21:05:00 - [38] - Quote Do a lot of people use it? Yeah, it's OP. There is a reason for that and it ain't because folks like the way it looks on their toon. Death is a serious business. So is running a shoddy, half-baked game company.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 17586	Posted - 2015.03.11 21:06:00 - [39] - Quote LUGMOS wrote: Why the ScR is OP is because it kills really fast with a very very decent range. It is too good up close for being a TAC rifle, ad why the TAC AR is not as good is because it cannot kill as fast, nor does it have a charge. The TAC AR has a decent limit on RoF, while the ScR does not have much in the way of that. The heat doesn't matter, as someone else said "the heat doesn't matter if everything dies within one overheat." The Tac AR is a monster at close range combat as well and when using it I have no fear whatsoever about over heating...... shamefully I do have AR Op V and Prof 3 and occasionally use the Kalente's. "Hell he's even agreed with me in the past but insisted I'm still wrong. It's totes adorbs." Pokey Dravon on Spkr4thDead
Nocturnal Soul Primordial Threat 5850	Posted - 2015.03.11 21:07:00 - [40] - Quote True Adamance wrote: LUGMOS wrote: Why the ScR is OP is because it kills really fast with a very very decent range. It is too good up close for being a TAC rifle, ad why the TAC AR is not as good is because it cannot kill as fast, nor does it have a charge. The TAC AR has a decent limit on RoF, while the ScR does not have much in the way of that. The heat doesn't matter, as someone else said "the heat doesn't matter if everything dies within one overheat." The Tac AR is a monster at close range combat as well and when using it I have no fear whatsoever about over heating...... shamefully I do have AR Op V and Prof 3 and occasionally use the Kalente's. Eeeew True (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!! The Incursions are back... and they're golden baby!

Anaksha Venom Isuuaya Tactical Caldari State 0	Posted - 2015.03.11 21:13:00 - [41] - Quote thehellisgoingon wrote: A charged shot that's well aimed to the dome will end your happy dance. But it's not op. I miss and overheat then committed suicide. Dose your gun kill you? Yes point blank PLC OHK:P
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 17587	Posted - 2015.03.11 21:15:00 - [42] - Quote Nocturnal Soul wrote: True Adamance wrote: LUGMOS wrote: Why the ScR is OP is because it kills really fast with a very very decent range. It is too good up close for being a TAC rifle, ad why the TAC AR is not as good is because it cannot kill as fast, nor does it have a charge. The TAC AR has a decent limit on RoF, while the ScR does not have much in the way of that. The heat doesn't matter, as someone else said "the heat doesn't matter if everything dies within one overheat." The Tac AR is a monster at close range combat as well and when using it I have no fear whatsoever about over heating...... shamefully I do have AR Op V and Prof 3 and occasionally use the Kalente's. Eeeew True Shut your half Minmatar half Khanid mouth! I have some choice words for you on your latest dropsuit acquisitions. "Hell he's even agreed with me in the past but insisted I'm still wrong. It's totes adorbs." Pokey Dravon on Spkr4thDead
Cyrus Grevare WarRavens 439	Posted - 2015.03.11 21:29:00 - [43] - Quote To add another insight to the discussion, specifically about engagement ranges: 75m optimal, effective 96m for ScR 61m optimal, effective 90m for TacAr Most can say eff range are pretty similar, but optimal range being more obscure, plays a far greater role on a weapon's efficiency. If you were to put both rifles @75m (ScR's optimal) the TacAr would perform at aproximately 69% efficiency. The following calculated stats are given at that range (max skills): Base vs Shields [ 98.67 ] vs [ 63.37 ] hp DPS vs Shields [ 987 ] vs [ 633.68 ] hp/s Base vs Armor [ 57.2 ] vs [ 45.08 ] hp DPS vs Armor [ 572 ] vs [ 450.84 ] hp/s www.protofits.com - a Dust 514 fitting tool
LUGMOS Corrosive Synergy RISE of LEGION 2658	Posted - 2015.03.11 21:39:00 - [44] - Quote Dreis Shadowweaver wrote: You should always try the weapon before claiming it's OP. I suspect a lot of people in this thread have never used a SCR above MLT. I have PRO ScR and PRO AR, and I use the ScR on Amaar Assault 5, and without it too... It is dirty to use. Same with CR, but that's another discussion. Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
Templar XIII Vherokior Combat Logistics Minmatar Republic 84	Posted - 2015.03.11 22:09:00 - [45] - Quote LUGMOS wrote: Why the ScR is OP is because it kills really fast with a very very decent range. It is too good up close for being a TAC rifle, ad why the TAC AR is not as good is because it cannot kill as fast, nor does it have a charge. The TAC AR has a decent limit on RoF, while the ScR does not have much in the way of that. The heat doesn't matter, as someone else said "the heat doesn't matter if everything dies within one overheat." Iam shocked, Lugmos, but this, my friend was a straight-out lie, and I did not expect that from you. You should know, that the ScR as well as the Tac AR both have a Rate of Fire of exactly 600RPM. There is no decent limit to RoF, where the ScR does not have much in the way of that. It has, same as TacAR. Furthermore, both can be put to exact RoF extremes via Turbo controller, in case you were hinting at that so this too cannot and will not count as an argument. Furthermore, charging up a shot costs time, time the ScR could have used for short quick shots instead, doing potentially more damage to the target granting the shots land. Instead it relies on a hit with one shot, not leaving much more room for shots and errors after, due to overheat & seize risk. Heat does matter, heat demands heat management, skill. A mechanism not needed for the TacAR. Many a ScR user died to mine ScR as I learned the arts and they did not. If you do have the skill, lucky you. But others don't and have to be taken into account not to overly penalize them in addition to their suckyness. Believing your ability with a weapon should be the measure by which the average ScR user has to abide is nothing but cocky. This is very disappointing, as I have not before seen you put your impartiality into so a questionable light. I do welcome every discussion regarding ScR, but please keep it objective.
Templar XIII Vherokior Combat Logistics Minmatar Republic 84	Posted - 2015.03.11 22:47:00 - [46] - Quote Cyrus Grevare wrote: To add another insight to the discussion, specifically about engagement ranges: 75m optimal, effective 96m for ScR 61m optimal, effective 90m for TacAr Most can say eff range are pretty similar, but optimal range being more obscure, plays a far greater role on a weapon's efficiency. If you were to put both rifles @75m (ScR's optimal) the TacAr would perform at aproximately 69% efficiency. The following calculated stats are given at that range (max skills): Base vs Shields [ 98.67 ] vs [ 63.37 ] hp DPS vs Shields [ 987 ] vs [ 633.68 ] hp/s Base vs Armor [ 57.2 ] vs [ 45.08 ] hp DPS vs Armor [ 572 ] vs [ 450.84 ] hp/s This is a really interesting argument. GåÆ optimal range differs for about 18%, effective range differs ~7%. GåÆ Different damage falloff curves may be suggested. GåÆ It may also be suggested that both weapons were intended to have different ranges to begin with and this is no coincidence. GåÆ additionally, the weapons general damage differs for about 3% in TacAR's favor. These are all interesting facts, but I cannot in all honesty make out, where this serves as an argument for anything. Please do not get me wrong, I do believe that this is something CCP should absolutely take a look at, but it does not open up any new avenues yet, as you do not seem to burden yourself with adding any postulates or demands to those numbers. So please allow me to help you out with that: CCP Rattati, pray give us some feedback whether these odd numbers should make any sense. [Please bear with me, Iam not native to this language.]
Cyrus Grevare WarRavens 440	Posted - 2015.03.11 22:57:00 - [47] - Quote Just some insight and number crunch, no personal opinion in there or intended :p I recently finished taking in game measurements for optimal ranges for most weapons as mentioned in a thread I recently made (for the most part neglected ~shrugs) I now have a strong belief that optimal range hasn't been analyzed a much as it should when attempting the recent balancing passes, mostly because of it's obscurity (no in game data, no data in the SDE, etc) www.protofits.com - a Dust 514 fitting tool
LUGMOS Corrosive Synergy RISE of LEGION 2658	Posted - 2015.03.11 22:59:00 - [48] - Quote Templar XIII wrote: I do welcome every discussion regarding ScR, but please keep it objective. However, if I were to be objective, there would be no argument At least not as effective. Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
Nocturnal Soul Primordial Threat 5853	Posted - 2015.03.11 23:01:00 - [49] - Quote They need to add the rest of the variants of the tactical rifles for any more comparison IMHO. (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!! The Incursions are back... and they're golden baby!
KingBabar Negative-Feedback. 2805	Posted - 2015.03.11 23:20:00 - [50] - Quote If the Scr must be nerfed, its important that its done in the correct way as to not break the gun. The only way I can see it being implemented is with a straight damage nerf, but this needs to be done paralell with a smaller heat buildup, and a bigger clip. I took on a basic fatsuit today, I needed 3 charged shots + another one. (I probably didn't need all the damage of the last one...) Yes its good, its immensly powerful in a straight up trench like slugfest. Then again, you'd be surprised of how many suits I hit with a charged shot + follow up volley that simply don't die before I overheat. I get tons of kills with it, but I hardly ever get killed by it. Why is that? Well, I am slightly better than the average academy noob yes. And I use it with a specialised suit with maxed skills and 3 damage mods. Whats the TTK of a Min suit with a six kin / boundless with 2 damage mods vs my 181 shields and 559 armor? Anyone care to do the maths? How much total damage will all those bullets yield before a reload is needed? I miss that charged shot and I am as good as dead, unless I am postioned at reasonable range with cover nearby. And lastly, up close against a superstrafing something or indeed in conditions of lag or low frame rate, it becomes as good as useless... A nerf to this gun is a very tricky ordeal, it can easyly become redundant for competitive play, oh wait, when was the last time I saw one in PC? Spkr4theDead wrote: Says the guy that was quitting the game because CCP were nerfing fused locus grenades.

LUGMOS Corrosive Synergy RISE of LEGION 2658	Posted - 2015.03.11 23:28:00 - [51] - Quote KingBabar wrote: unless I am postioned at reasonable range Here, you highlight my beef with it. It can be used very efficiently in CQC, even though it has a CQC variant. I'm not sure why people want it to be good in CQC too, but I have a theory.It outperforms it's variant where it is not supposed to. With the AScR buff, though, The normal variant should be nerfed a bit. In which way? Well, I suggested adding something similar to what the LR has, where it has reduced efficiency up close. Or we could give it more dispersion in hipfire. I do not want to go to a straight up damage nerf, as it will mess it up. It must be the mentality that the CR gives, where that rifle is good at range and excellent in CQC. People want that carried over to the ScR methinks Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
KingBabar Negative-Feedback. 2805	Posted - 2015.03.11 23:36:00 - [52] - Quote A good idea indeed, give it less dmage up close, that seems like a fair nerf that won't break the gun. Spkr4theDead wrote: Says the guy that was quitting the game because CCP were nerfing fused locus grenades.
LUGMOS Corrosive Synergy RISE of LEGION 2659	Posted - 2015.03.11 23:39:00 - [53] - Quote KingBabar wrote: A good idea indeed, give it less dmage up close, that seems like a fair nerf that won't break the gun. Apparently, people disagree Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
knight guard fury Carbon 7 Iron Oxide. 1545	Posted - 2015.03.11 23:53:00 - [54] - Quote LUGMOS wrote: KingBabar wrote: unless I am postioned at reasonable range Here, you highlight my beef with it. It can be used very efficiently in CQC, even though it has a CQC variant. I'm not sure why people want it to be good in CQC too, but I have a theory.It outperforms it's variant where it is not supposed to. With the AScR buff, though, The normal variant should be nerfed a bit. In which way? Well, I suggested adding something similar to what the LR has, where it has reduced efficiency up close. Or we could give it more dispersion in hipfire. I do not want to go to a straight up damage nerf, as it will mess it up. It must be the mentality that the CR gives, where that rifle is good at range and excellent in CQC. People want that carried over to the ScR methinks I actually kind of agree with that in a sense. In eve, if you too close to a person your guns won't track easily and miss though you may be like less than 400m away and etc. But for dust this only seems reasonable for the laser based weapons and maybe the plasma based but that would have to be like hella close otherwise LOLCQC SP earned perday/week
Lynn Beck Delta Vanguard 6 2381	Posted - 2015.03.11 23:53:00 - [55] - Quote "Explosive" type weapons only deal typically 100-200 DPS, against a tank type which at the lowest edges of assault fits have 400 armor(talking Type II Gallente fit, or just a Galscout with 2 Enh Plates) which is also their final buffer of health, meaning not only do you have 400+ armor to go through, but also their 30(one tick of regen) to 300 shields, which will take 1-2 Freedom MD rounds with MInmando 5 to drop "Laser" Type weapons deal as much DPS as a HMG, while also being Light weapons, while also having a skill to nullify their only downside, while also being super easily boosted by dmg mods, while also having a convenient charge function(SCR only) that helps deal with head pokers who try to play to shield suits' strengths against SCR users, ALONG with having their main and most times only tank type being the first line of defense, and as such there is no "non-best" tank to chew through, thus meaning the DPS is always best applied, ALSO their only drawback is "Miss more than 5 shots or go up against a proto AmSent and you might die." I'm fairly certain when the CR + Minsault combo could drop sents in one clip, it got it's @$$ nerfed, several times. Laser weapons instantly nullify any reason to run a pure shield fit suit, aside from RP or lols. Explosives don't make armor suits instantly die, they only make armor suits "Less favored" than shield suits. Also, Flux Nades. Also also, less fitted HP, regardless of regen. "But my armor suit needs 1-2 slots for reppers waaaah" Bull **ing $hit it does, and your plates also grant double+ the HP of a extender, and that's our proto vs your proto, basic/basic it's almost triple. "But my armor suit gets 1shot by core nades waaaaaah" Yeah, so do shield suits that aren't CalSents. "But CR users waaaaaaah" Yeah, now try that against a weapon with 1.5X the CR's DPS, with 15% more range and in a suit with anywhere from 30-50% less main tank. "But mass drivers shoot me from cover waaaah" Yeah, they hit us too. Oh and did i mention even a AMD hitting for 60 damage stops our regen, while you can potentially halve it's DPS with onboard reps alone? General John Ripper -BAM!** I'm Emeril Lagasse. This message was approved by the 'Nobody Loved You' Foundation'
knight guard fury Carbon 7 Iron Oxide. 1545	Posted - 2015.03.11 23:58:00 - [56] - Quote Let's not forget that armor plates are getting reduced too. So less tank in the future SP earned perday/week
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 17594	Posted - 2015.03.12 00:00:00 - [57] - Quote Y'know most of the issues with this gun would and could be solves if Damage modules were in their proper position as a low slot module. Raphael: I'm warning you. Do not leave me here. I will find you. Castiel: Maybe one day. Today you're my little bitch
LUGMOS Corrosive Synergy RISE of LEGION 2666	Posted - 2015.03.12 00:00:00 - [58] - Quote Lynn Beck wrote: Oh and did i mention even a AMD hitting for 60 damage stops our regen, while you can potentially halve it's DPS with onboard reps alone? Hell, I had a guy pinging me with an SMG from 50 meters stopping my regen... Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
Dreis Shadowweaver T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K RISE of LEGION 2142	Posted - 2015.03.12 00:11:00 - [59] - Quote Since we've seemed to have moved on to armour vs shield tanking, I'll leave my thoughts and experiences: Shield tanking is much more viable than armour tanking IMO. With the naturally fast regen, armour-meta, higher speed of shield-tanked fits, faster strafe speed, and only marginally less EHP than armour-tanked fits, it's obvious that armour-tanking is inferior to shield-tanking. This needs to be taken into account when considering how to balance the SCR. Creator of the 'Nova Knifers United' channel Caldari blood, Minmatar heart <3 Dreis(Ishukone Nova Knives)CCPArchduke
Dreis Shadowweaver T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K RISE of LEGION 2142	Posted - 2015.03.12 00:15:00 - [60] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Y'know most of the issues with this gun would and could be solves if Damage modules were in their proper position as a low slot module. How would that solve anything? Because armour-tanked suits would have less ehp? If anything, they'd have more shields to compensate for the loss of low slots to accommodate damage mods. The general consensus is that the problem with the SCR isn't the ehp of the suits using them, but the damage that the SCR puts out. Creator of the 'Nova Knifers United' channel Caldari blood, Minmatar heart <3 Dreis(Ishukone Nova Knives)CCPArchduke



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