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Mex-0
T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K General Tso's Alliance
348
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Posted - 2015.02.04 23:07:00 -
[61] - Quote
CCP should also at least try to incorporate SOME kind of matchmaking. Many times I've been put on a team with fresh-out-of-academy scrubs, and with Proto-stomping, q-syncing, gankers.
Gû¼+¦GòÉGòÉn¦ñ
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Big Burns
Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance
448
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Posted - 2015.02.04 23:11:00 -
[62] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Please read the entirety of this and try to understand where I'm coming from before responding critically.
It feels, to me, like all the good gunfights are gone in favor of gimmicky game mechanics. It feels as though I'm always getting killed by cloaky/prof damped scout predator kills or high EHP, resistanced heavies with offensively high DPS HMGs that I'd never win against. Missile Pythons which can two/three shot just about anything that you have to have a specific AV fit for, which puts you at an extreme disadvantage to the aforementioned. That's just a few.
I never feel like I fought hard and died trying in a firefight anymore. I feel like I got ganked - cheated - I feel like I was boned the minute I hit 'x' to deploy. That I was doomed to lose ISK and spend the next thirty seconds respawning; that the deaths just don't feel genuine anymore, they feel cheap.
I want to enjoy the gameplay but it has been getting more frustrating with every update ever since Uprising 1.5, at least for me. Chromosome had it's faults but I genuine miss the high TTK firefights where you had to stand toe-to-toe with your enemy and player skill decided the outcome more than equipment. The TTK feels like it's getting lower, with every build. I get this impression that for every step we take forward in Dust 514, we take four more steps backward in the overall combat. Things seem more balanced but for some reason it just doesn't feel... quite right. To put it simply, I really just miss not rolling my eyes and thinking, "Oh, another one of -THOSE-" whenever I die. I miss legitimate gun fights between rifles and I don't know how to find that enjoyment again.
Anyway, just thought I'd express that to get it off my chest as objectively as possible. Feel free to respond however you like.
I think you just said the words that we all couldn't seem to say ourselves. I couldn't have possibly said it any better^
I'm a try-hard, because half my team sits in the MCC.
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Starlight Burner
ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance
107
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Posted - 2015.02.05 10:02:00 -
[63] - Quote
Say no to Twitch shooters.
This game was different.... 'WAS' is the keyword.
I agree with Aeon.
Thank god for CCP Rattati!!
Rogue Relics is my home away from home.
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XxBlazikenxX
Y.A.M.A.H
119
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Posted - 2015.02.05 18:12:00 -
[64] - Quote
Mex-0 wrote:CCP should also at least try to incorporate SOME kind of matchmaking. Many times I've been put on a team with fresh-out-of-academy scrubs, and with Proto-stomping, q-syncing, gankers. Maybe a tier system based on your wins/losses or wp points
Terrestrial Combat Officer of Y.A.M.A.H
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Timtron Victory
Horizons' Edge
305
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Posted - 2015.02.05 18:24:00 -
[65] - Quote
I really dont see any problem with scouts, there should be stealthy its their role. I one shot most scouts with a Bolt. My biggest problem is modded controllers and the whole strafing crap, its one thing to move around as a skill its another to move in such a way that bullets or pellets or projectiles or rails dont register hits. Thats why I dont use rifles, gun fights are pointless. Everyone is stacking a bootload of eHP and thats not my style, even if I land more shots most wont register so my Combat Rifle skills feel rather useless.
Bolt and Scrambler pistol for me Nova Knives and flaylock
The other weapons are rather useless I personally not really mind the strafing, I can live with it, I just need to learn to use head shots But the modded controllers are a problem, I have seen scouts go head to head with a 1000eHP heavy with a rifle and won in less than 2 seconds even before warlord
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Proud Christian
Jesus Loves You
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XxBlazikenxX
Y.A.M.A.H
119
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Posted - 2015.02.05 18:27:00 -
[66] - Quote
Timtron Victory wrote:I really dont see any problem with scouts, there should be stealthy its their role. I one shot most scouts with a Bolt. My biggest problem is modded controllers and the whole strafing crap, its one thing to move around as a skill its another to move in such a way that bullets or pellets or projectiles or rails dont register hits. Thats why I dont use rifles, gun fights are pointless. Everyone is stacking a bootload of eHP and thats not my style, even if I land more shots most wont register so my Combat Rifle skills feel rather useless.
Bolt and Scrambler pistol for me Nova Knives and flaylock
The other weapons are rather useless I personally not really mind the strafing, I can live with it, I just need to learn to use head shots But the modded controllers are a problem, I have seen scouts go head to head with a 1000eHP heavy with a rifle and won in less than 2 seconds even before warlord I have heard that one of the reasons that CCP wanted to move Dust to PC in the form of Legion is because of this modded controller problem.
Terrestrial Combat Officer of Y.A.M.A.H
Recruitment
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Aeon Amadi
Chimera Core
8456
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Posted - 2015.02.05 21:04:00 -
[67] - Quote
XxBlazikenxX wrote:Mex-0 wrote:CCP should also at least try to incorporate SOME kind of matchmaking. Many times I've been put on a team with fresh-out-of-academy scrubs, and with Proto-stomping, q-syncing, gankers. Maybe a tier system based on your wins/losses or wp points
Technically, this is what the MU System should be doing for us right now, but there's not enough players for it to really do it's job =P
XxBlazikenxX wrote: I have heard that one of the reasons that CCP wanted to move Dust to PC in the form of Legion is because of this modded controller problem.
Doubt it. You're talking about a whole host of others issues in that case beyond just controllers. Hardware, tournament/gaming edition devices (macro keyboards and what not), extreme gaming monitors (there's one that has a 1ms refresh rate with a built in crosshair/zoom feature).
Would be contradictory to go from a platform with -less- third-party input to go to a platform with exponentially more.
Have a suggestion for the Planetary Services Department?
Founder of AIV
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KA24DERT
TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback
994
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Posted - 2015.02.06 23:27:00 -
[68] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:KA24DERT wrote:Get rid of Aim Assist and you'll have your fun fights again.
Aim Assist bears 90% of the blame for low TTK in this game.
The barriers to getting rid of AA are CCP's total lack of vision, and the loud scrubs sucking on the Aim Assist tit that will cry long into the night if it goes away. Lawl, has absolutely nothing to do with the 200 dmg/shot bolt pistols, insanely high alpha of Scrambler Rifle's, Shotguns, Nova Knives... Extremely high DPS of the HMG... Nothing to do with things like cloaking devices, EWAR, and 25% splash resistances to Sentinels who receive a healthy 15% resistance toward racial weaponry while toting around a 600+ DPS death mini-gun that gains accuracy as you shoot it. Nope. Not a thing to do with that. All Aim Assist. Come on guys, seriously..? The Aim Assist thing is a red herring, it's a symptom to a larger disease that's plagued the overall game for a long time now. Even with the Aim Assist there are ways of increasing TTK and making gun-game more skill based.
Aim assist negates strafing, dispersion, and human error.
It turns the theoretical DPS of a hit-scan weapon into nearly guaranteed DPS.
Yes, I do agree that the high-alpha weapons are a pain point, but AA turns almost every rifle into a "Burst Alpha" weapon, and that contributes greatly to the low TTK. If AA stays in the game, every aim assisted weapon would need a humongous nerf(think at least 30%), which would cause a huge cascade of rebalancing. And then if Dust/Legion comes out on PC, AA will have to be removed regardless, and now you'd need another re-balance.
Better to rip the bandaid off now.
The more troubling issue is that somewhere within CCP's organization low TTK is the intended goal(which is reflected in the points you brought up), and I don't know what will convince them that they are ruining Dust with their gank oriented gameplay.
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Mex-0
T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K General Tso's Alliance
349
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Posted - 2015.02.06 23:34:00 -
[69] - Quote
KA24DERT wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:KA24DERT wrote:Get rid of Aim Assist and you'll have your fun fights again.
Aim Assist bears 90% of the blame for low TTK in this game.
The barriers to getting rid of AA are CCP's total lack of vision, and the loud scrubs sucking on the Aim Assist tit that will cry long into the night if it goes away. Lawl, has absolutely nothing to do with the 200 dmg/shot bolt pistols, insanely high alpha of Scrambler Rifle's, Shotguns, Nova Knives... Extremely high DPS of the HMG... Nothing to do with things like cloaking devices, EWAR, and 25% splash resistances to Sentinels who receive a healthy 15% resistance toward racial weaponry while toting around a 600+ DPS death mini-gun that gains accuracy as you shoot it. Nope. Not a thing to do with that. All Aim Assist. Come on guys, seriously..? The Aim Assist thing is a red herring, it's a symptom to a larger disease that's plagued the overall game for a long time now. Even with the Aim Assist there are ways of increasing TTK and making gun-game more skill based. Aim assist negates strafing, dispersion, and human error. It turns the theoretical DPS of a hit-scan weapon into nearly guaranteed DPS. Yes, I do agree that the high-alpha weapons are a pain point, but AA turns almost every rifle into a "Burst Alpha" weapon, and that contributes greatly to the low TTK. If AA stays in the game, every aim assisted weapon would need a humongous nerf(think at least 30%), which would cause a huge cascade of rebalancing. And then if Dust/Legion comes out on PC, AA will have to be removed regardless, and now you'd need another re-balance. Better to rip the bandaid off now. The more troubling issue is that somewhere within CCP's organization low TTK is the intended goal(which is reflected in the points you brought up), and I don't know what will convince them that they are ruining Dust with their gank oriented gameplay.
Honestly, I think it would be better to get nerf the damage on weapons instead of AA.
It's supposed to be pro player vs pro player = strafing = longer fights, but most people are either getting ganked or simply outstrafed/outperformed by gear.
Gû¼+¦GòÉGòÉn¦ñ
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XxBlazikenxX
Y.A.M.A.H
136
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Posted - 2015.02.07 00:34:00 -
[70] - Quote
Mex-0 wrote:KA24DERT wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:KA24DERT wrote:Get rid of Aim Assist and you'll have your fun fights again.
Aim Assist bears 90% of the blame for low TTK in this game.
The barriers to getting rid of AA are CCP's total lack of vision, and the loud scrubs sucking on the Aim Assist tit that will cry long into the night if it goes away. Lawl, has absolutely nothing to do with the 200 dmg/shot bolt pistols, insanely high alpha of Scrambler Rifle's, Shotguns, Nova Knives... Extremely high DPS of the HMG... Nothing to do with things like cloaking devices, EWAR, and 25% splash resistances to Sentinels who receive a healthy 15% resistance toward racial weaponry while toting around a 600+ DPS death mini-gun that gains accuracy as you shoot it. Nope. Not a thing to do with that. All Aim Assist. Come on guys, seriously..? The Aim Assist thing is a red herring, it's a symptom to a larger disease that's plagued the overall game for a long time now. Even with the Aim Assist there are ways of increasing TTK and making gun-game more skill based. Aim assist negates strafing, dispersion, and human error. It turns the theoretical DPS of a hit-scan weapon into nearly guaranteed DPS. Yes, I do agree that the high-alpha weapons are a pain point, but AA turns almost every rifle into a "Burst Alpha" weapon, and that contributes greatly to the low TTK. If AA stays in the game, every aim assisted weapon would need a humongous nerf(think at least 30%), which would cause a huge cascade of rebalancing. And then if Dust/Legion comes out on PC, AA will have to be removed regardless, and now you'd need another re-balance. Better to rip the bandaid off now. The more troubling issue is that somewhere within CCP's organization low TTK is the intended goal(which is reflected in the points you brought up), and I don't know what will convince them that they are ruining Dust with their gank oriented gameplay. Honestly, I think it would be better to get nerf the damage on weapons instead of AA. It's supposed to be pro player vs pro player = strafing = longer fights, but most people are either getting ganked or simply outstrafed/outperformed by gear. Nerf the damage on all weapons except forge guns and plasma cannons, because let's face it. If you take a plasma cannon to the head, you're not going to live.
Terrestrial Combat Officer of Y.A.M.A.H
Recruitment
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Imp Smash
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
647
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Posted - 2015.02.07 00:37:00 -
[71] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Please read the entirety of this and try to understand where I'm coming from before responding critically.
It feels, to me, like all the good gunfights are gone in favor of gimmicky game mechanics. It feels as though I'm always getting killed by cloaky/prof damped scout predator kills or high EHP, resistanced heavies with offensively high DPS HMGs that I'd never win against. Missile Pythons which can two/three shot just about anything that you have to have a specific AV fit for, which puts you at an extreme disadvantage to the aforementioned. That's just a few.
I never feel like I fought hard and died trying in a firefight anymore. I feel like I got ganked - cheated - I feel like I was boned the minute I hit 'x' to deploy. That I was doomed to lose ISK and spend the next thirty seconds respawning; that the deaths just don't feel genuine anymore, they feel cheap.
I want to enjoy the gameplay but it has been getting more frustrating with every update ever since Uprising 1.5, at least for me. Chromosome had it's faults but I genuine miss the high TTK firefights where you had to stand toe-to-toe with your enemy and player skill decided the outcome more than equipment. The TTK feels like it's getting lower, with every build. I get this impression that for every step we take forward in Dust 514, we take four more steps backward in the overall combat. Things seem more balanced but for some reason it just doesn't feel... quite right. To put it simply, I really just miss not rolling my eyes and thinking, "Oh, another one of -THOSE-" whenever I die. I miss legitimate gun fights between rifles and I don't know how to find that enjoyment again.
Anyway, just thought I'd express that to get it off my chest as objectively as possible. Feel free to respond however you like.
Emergent Sandbox gameplay? As people mess around with stuff they figure out new ways to use things that make killing easier? In a relatively sandboxed FPS with such high variety customization I would think it would be impossible to maintain any sort of TTK. It would inevitably drop. |
Alaika Arbosa
Minmatar Republic
2468
|
Posted - 2015.02.07 00:59:00 -
[72] - Quote
Leave weapon damage as is
Remove Aim Assist
Remove Strafing
Encourage tactics other than running here and there chasing kills because "I'm elite".
We the pc players make up a huge majority of active players. --Roman837
^^ROFLMAO
OMG I need to catch my breath now..
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Reign Omega
T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K General Tso's Alliance
1208
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Posted - 2015.02.07 04:29:00 -
[73] - Quote
Alaika Arbosa wrote:Leave weapon damage as is
Remove Aim Assist
Remove Strafing
Encourage tactics other than running here and there chasing kills because "I'm elite".
Remove.... strafing?
Mark a$$ tricks, and bags of dicks....
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Powerh8er
Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback
657
|
Posted - 2015.02.07 04:39:00 -
[74] - Quote
tl:dr
Get strenght and agility to level 10. Find a sledgehammer, kill everything.
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Petrified Ancient Tree
Expert Intervention Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2015.02.07 05:04:00 -
[75] - Quote
My personal beef is with "smart deploy" in ambush placing me in front of the enemy (no beacons on the map) and dying before I can finish turning around to face them (it spawned me in a cargo container both sides covered by reds).
At least I am no longer loading into a game as it ends. |
XxBlazikenxX
Y.A.M.A.H
149
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Posted - 2015.02.07 06:13:00 -
[76] - Quote
Petrified Ancient Tree wrote:My personal beef is with "smart deploy" in ambush placing me in front of the enemy (no beacons on the map) and dying before I can finish turning around to face them (it spawned me in a cargo container both sides covered by reds).
At least I am no longer loading into a game as it ends. Same here, I hate it when that happens, especially if I happen to spawn in a proto suit with 5 redberries standing around me.
Terrestrial Combat Officer of Y.A.M.A.H
Recruitment
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Alaika Arbosa
Minmatar Republic
2469
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Posted - 2015.02.07 15:10:00 -
[77] - Quote
Reign Omega wrote:Alaika Arbosa wrote:Leave weapon damage as is
Remove Aim Assist
Remove Strafing
Encourage tactics other than running here and there chasing kills because "I'm elite". Remove.... strafing? Yep
and Aim Assist
Give us the entire maps too while you're at it (only for Skirmish though and remove clone counts for Skirmish too).
Dust has been a lobby shooter clone long enough, it needs to go back to trying to be different from every other cookie cutter shooter on the market.
If it moves closer to being a Sci-Fi Military Sim, it will accomplish this.
We the pc players make up a huge majority of active players. --Roman837
^^ROFLMAO
OMG I need to catch my breath now..
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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
4005
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Posted - 2015.02.07 16:45:00 -
[78] - Quote
KA24DERT wrote:
Aim assist negates strafing, dispersion, and human error.
It turns the theoretical DPS of a hit-scan weapon into nearly guaranteed DPS.
Yes, I do agree that the high-alpha weapons are a pain point, but AA turns almost every rifle into a "Burst Alpha" weapon, and that contributes greatly to the low TTK. If AA stays in the game, every aim assisted weapon would need a humongous nerf(think at least 30%), which would cause a huge cascade of rebalancing. And then if Dust/Legion comes out on PC, AA will have to be removed regardless, and now you'd need another re-balance.
Better to rip the bandaid off now.
The more troubling issue is that somewhere within CCP's organization low TTK is the intended goal(which is reflected in the points you brought up), and I don't know what will convince them that they are ruining Dust with their gank oriented gameplay.
AA is only part of it (though a large part in a manner of speaking).
The problem with removing it is that the post-uprising engine has always kinda sucked. The AA and hit-prediction they have in place now was their way of working around the latency, framerate issues, and generally wonky mechanics we inherited post-chromosome. It was the easier way to "fix" things as opposed to reworking the engine, and I don't think the Dust team has engine programmers anymore?
I don't think they can realistically remove AA unless they: make a new engine, rework this one a lot, or roll back to Chromosome. The problem with most of the options is that Legion is still very question marky and not spoken of, and Dust's future is also pretty hazy considering the last official word from corporate was "Dust is canned." I'm not sure if their skeleton crew is equipped to do the sort of adjustments the game would require without AA.
However, I agree with you about the apparent goal of lower TTK. There seems to be a push towards that sort of mainstreaming with their current content.
Unfortunately, considering Dust's relative lack of success, it seems problematic to persuade them to be less mainstream given they probably want "as many players and as much income as possible." It's the same mistake companies like EA make when they try to make X game a game for everyone instead of excelling in a particular area or filling an under-served niche. It's not always clear why a game failed, and there's always a hundred voices to give you a hundred different explanations, even here.
The Dren Swarm fiasco.
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DUST Fiend
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
15666
|
Posted - 2015.02.07 16:53:00 -
[79] - Quote
Railgun incubus is the only fun thing left in this game for me, despite how infuriatingly frustratingit can be.
Im out of ISK though and not in the mood to play 0 SP BPO fits haha, so ive wandered away from the game again lol.
My hobby is too expensive
My YouTube (currently inactive)
Homeless Dropship Enthusiast
"See You Space Cowboy"
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KA24DERT
TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback
997
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Posted - 2015.02.07 22:08:00 -
[80] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:KA24DERT wrote:
Aim assist negates strafing, dispersion, and human error.
It turns the theoretical DPS of a hit-scan weapon into nearly guaranteed DPS.
Yes, I do agree that the high-alpha weapons are a pain point, but AA turns almost every rifle into a "Burst Alpha" weapon, and that contributes greatly to the low TTK. If AA stays in the game, every aim assisted weapon would need a humongous nerf(think at least 30%), which would cause a huge cascade of rebalancing. And then if Dust/Legion comes out on PC, AA will have to be removed regardless, and now you'd need another re-balance.
Better to rip the bandaid off now.
The more troubling issue is that somewhere within CCP's organization low TTK is the intended goal(which is reflected in the points you brought up), and I don't know what will convince them that they are ruining Dust with their gank oriented gameplay.
AA is only part of it (though a large part in a manner of speaking). The problem with removing it is that the post-uprising engine has always kinda sucked. The AA and hit-prediction they have in place now was their way of working around the latency, framerate issues, and generally wonky mechanics we inherited post-chromosome. It was the easier way to "fix" things as opposed to reworking the engine, and I don't think the Dust team has engine programmers anymore? I don't think they can realistically remove AA unless they: make a new engine, rework this one a lot, or roll back to Chromosome. The problem with most of the options is that Legion is still very question marky and not spoken of, and Dust's future is also pretty hazy considering the last official word from corporate was "Dust is canned." I'm not sure if their skeleton crew is equipped to do the sort of adjustments the game would require without AA. However, I agree with you about the apparent goal of lower TTK. There seems to be a push towards that sort of mainstreaming with their current content. Unfortunately, considering Dust's relative lack of success, it seems problematic to persuade them to be less mainstream given they probably want "as many players and as much income as possible." It's the same mistake companies like EA make when they try to make X game a game for everyone instead of excelling in a particular area or filling an under-served niche. It's not always clear why a game failed, and there's always a hundred voices to give you a hundred different explanations, even here.
I have to concede that removing AA is unrealistic given the Dev constraints you highlighted, but I still hold it is what SHOULD happen under more ideal circumstances.
But TTK is still a huge issue, and I guarantee that most of the hundreds of new players that try this game every day rage quit after being repeatedly vaporized with no warning. That's working directly against CCP's goal, player retention is vital to wide appeal, and the current gankfest is not appealing. You can't be "mainstream" if nobody plays your game.
With AA as a fixture of necessity, that leaves nothing but a HUGE damage nerf on the table.
Question is, when we have people pissing and moaning about 5-10% nerfs, how would one convince anybody that a 50% damage reduction to most weapons is the way to go?
Or more fundamentally, how do we convince anyone that low TTK is what's killing Dust?
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Archduke Ferd1nand
nos nothi
54
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Posted - 2015.02.07 22:09:00 -
[81] - Quote
And why, exactly, is having a reasonable TTK bad for this game?
Killed by Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p on June 28 1914.
Last words: "Nova Knives and a Flaylock Pistol? I might just die laughing!"
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wayrow1
grey old warriors
23
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Posted - 2015.02.07 22:29:00 -
[82] - Quote
hold that wrote:the game for me since last year has been get as much wp as humanly possible a match, which i do if you check out my leaderboard wp. it isn't as fun as it used to be. i think cloaked scouts fuked this whole game up. the scouts are no real concern to me but the throwing of remotes like grenades is the bane of the battle field they should have to be deployed at the deployers feet also vehicles should be removed from all ambush |
XxBlazikenxX
Y.A.M.A.H
157
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Posted - 2015.02.07 23:04:00 -
[83] - Quote
Archduke Ferd1nand wrote:And why, exactly, is having a reasonable TTK bad for this game?
Makes it less tactical and more like COD
*shivers
Terrestrial Combat Officer of Y.A.M.A.H
Recruitment
Minmatar Assault
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Shamarskii Simon
The Hundred Acre Hood RISE of LEGION
103
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Posted - 2015.02.08 04:21:00 -
[84] - Quote
CoD TTK in a game where all your assets cost money you have to earn or else you'll be down to suits which get instagib'd instantly (instantly twice? Yes im aware, i just needa put a lil "EMPH" in it). Then it's just constant death and failure.
No human want's constant failure, especially if it destroys your ability to compete.
Entering the void and becoming wind with my repbus.
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KA24DERT
TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback
1000
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Posted - 2015.02.09 21:02:00 -
[85] - Quote
Shamarskii Simon wrote:CoD TTK in a game where all your assets cost money you have to earn or else you'll be down to suits which get instagib'd instantly (instantly twice? Yes im aware, i just needa put a lil "EMPH" in it). Then it's just constant death and failure.
No human want's constant failure, especially if it destroys your ability to compete. Not just that, it really destroys immersion when no matter how you configure your dropsuit, the most you could do is delay your gibbing by MAYBE a whole second.
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Bayeth Mal
nos nothi
2336
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Posted - 2015.02.09 21:55:00 -
[86] - Quote
To be fair early uprising was horrific for everyone except medium frames.
So that may be where it has changed.
We'll bang, OK?
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