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Heimdallr69
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
4555
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Posted - 2015.02.04 02:09:00 -
[31] - Quote
Increasing TTK wouldn't change anything with heavies due to their massive hp/DMG output and on top of that their DMG resistance. People say heavies are fine but insta killing non heavies is a bit bs. No skill needed just spray and get repped, continue farming.
Removed inappropriate content - CCP Logibro
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Aeon Amadi
Chimera Core
8331
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Posted - 2015.02.04 02:11:00 -
[32] - Quote
Heimdallr69 wrote:Increasing TTK wouldn't change anything with heavies due to their massive hp/DMG output and on top of that their DMG resistance. People say heavies are fine but insta killing non heavies is a bit bs. No skill needed just spray and get repped, continue farming.
Can't tell you how much that means to me hearing you say that, Heimdallr69. Just goes to show that maybe I'm not crazy after all.
Have a suggestion for the Planetary Services Department?
Founder of AIV
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Bradric Banewolf
D3ATH CARD RUST415
722
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Posted - 2015.02.04 02:15:00 -
[33] - Quote
CCP has given in, and all but given up to twitch players. They can't keep players so they cater to them. Modded controllers have been slaughtering thousands with no response from CCP. There is very little tactics left because CCP won't stop this fotm building. Why use teamwork when I can just get the min assault with anything, and not take damage?
"Anybody order chaos?"
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Archduke Ferd1nand
Nos Nothi
40
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Posted - 2015.02.04 03:01:00 -
[34] - Quote
Yeah **** shotguns, nova knives, plasma cannons, pistols and every other weapon that isn't a fine rifle...
Killed by Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p on June 28 1914.
Last words: "Nova Knives and a Flaylock Pistol? I might just die laughing!"
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Assert Dominance
Ahrendee Mercenaries
802
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Posted - 2015.02.04 03:02:00 -
[35] - Quote
chromosome had the real gunfights. 80% of mercs in every match were assaults. scouts were specialty suits few mastered and heavies werent too crazy. now its all heavies and e-war. competitive fights revolve around high ground rather than out gunning your opponents on the ground with rifles and a couple shotguns. ive currently resorted to min assault melee fit and honestly its a blast.
LogicGäó
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Aeon Amadi
Chimera Core
8335
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Posted - 2015.02.04 03:05:00 -
[36] - Quote
Assert Dominance wrote:chromosome had the real gunfights. 80% of mercs in every match were assaults. scouts were specialty suits few mastered and heavies werent too crazy. now its all heavies and e-war. competitive fights revolve around high ground rather than out gunning your opponents on the ground with rifles and a couple shotguns. ive currently resorted to min assault melee fit and honestly its a blast.
One thing I really miss back in Chromosome was using Nova Knives as a distraction tactic in a full squad. I loved running in there and having an entire frontline go into disarray as I became the immediate threat, giving the rest of my squad the opportunity to move up. Lack of Aim Assist made it entirely chaotic, and survival was almost assured if you stayed mobile - didn't even have to kill anyone.
Another thing I miss was being able to down RDV's with a Forge Gun.
Have a suggestion for the Planetary Services Department?
Founder of AIV
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Bethhy
Ancient Exiles.
3387
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Posted - 2015.02.04 03:29:00 -
[37] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Reign Omega wrote:I have to agree somewhat, all the new content is cool, but I rarely get into good fights these days. It's usually getting ganked, or ganking someone in a sort of cyclical rock paper scissors where the loser is simy the person with the wrong fit for the job. See someone running av? Gank. Am I running Av? Ganked. Mlt fit player? Gank. Proto fit player? Ganked. Some matches I find myself in a roulette wheel of spawns where I just brought the wrong fit and I pay for it, only to spawn in the fit I should've had, and paying for it because that part of the fight is over. I really wish we'd achieve true balance and just do away with the power leveled gear all together, honestly. That's another one of those things I genuinely hate. The feeling that, because I don't want to just shell out millions of ISK a day that I can't be -as- competitive as someone who joined at the same time or later than I did. That I have to run low-tiered gear if I want to keep ISK stability and suffer through my gameplay experience because of that. And yanno, as much as I personally complain about BPO's ruining the 'economy' and all.. I start to realize that my issue isn't with the BPO's so much as the fact that BPO's are a thing to stim the losses from constantly getting your *** handed to you by guys who -can- afford to permanently run the high tier stuff. Which isn't their fault, they're just doing the smart thing and playing within the game rules to the greatest advantage they're allowed... but it certainly doesn't do the gameplay much justice as a whole. I can't help but wonder what is actually achieved from this power-level gimmick at all. It doesn't offer any meaningful progression, you don't see forum threads of new guys saying, "Gosh, I sure can't wait until I can run that and be as powerful as them".
When DUST was about player skill as much as what suit and fitting you had.... It didn't matter... If you felt competent at FPS games? You could compete... Even when REAL pub stomping was going on..
When games where smaller player counts... But Mr.Zitro running around with his squad in Impz.... Internal error running around, Impswarm with their tankers... Pink fluffyz With Annie and Calamity... Proto everywhere you look.... Every corp had a squad or two of just deadly slayers running all night... There was rarely a map it was a cake walk....
Didn't matter.... Players who learned and tested their skills where able to perform against this competition and get better even with "Exile" assault rifles and an ADV suit...... As your skill point pool grew your survivability increased only slightly... because this DUST was about players gun game.
DUST now is completely based around it's Aim assist... I See you first? *Move crosshair to general area( (Aim assist pulls crosshair) Hold down trigger... Dead in 1-3 seconds....
No time to turn around... No time to defend your ISK investment... No creating an engagement from that point between two players... Where an epic fight proceeds where you both are on the edge of your seat fighting for 30 seconds + And still talk about it 2-3 years later....
This is when we emptied out what CCP should of been counting their lucky stars about... A Highly skilled FPS player population.... Instead CCP Nerfed competitive play... While nerfing player skill as a main means of competition in DUST 514..
Now we are just left with a couple bitter vets that have stuck around.... and this revolving door of blueberries who make it to 2-3 mil SP then quit.
We traded a highly skilled player base... WHat CCP Games is known for.... And traded it for what? To try and capture a casual CoD player? CCP tried to trade the bird in hand for two in the bush and screwed themselves...
Now there is no focus about growing and retaining their player base... Just milking the one it has now...
Truly sad. |
KA24DERT
TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback
991
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Posted - 2015.02.04 04:20:00 -
[38] - Quote
Get rid of Aim Assist and you'll have your fun fights again.
Aim Assist bears 90% of the blame for low TTK in this game.
The barriers to getting rid of AA are CCP's total lack of vision, and the loud scrubs sucking on the Aim Assist tit that will cry long into the night if it goes away.
BAN ADVANCED GEAR FROM PUBS | Mass Driver Advocate
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Aeon Amadi
Chimera Core
8348
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Posted - 2015.02.04 04:56:00 -
[39] - Quote
KA24DERT wrote:Get rid of Aim Assist and you'll have your fun fights again.
Aim Assist bears 90% of the blame for low TTK in this game.
The barriers to getting rid of AA are CCP's total lack of vision, and the loud scrubs sucking on the Aim Assist tit that will cry long into the night if it goes away.
Lawl, has absolutely nothing to do with the 200 dmg/shot bolt pistols, insanely high alpha of Scrambler Rifle's, Shotguns, Nova Knives... Extremely high DPS of the HMG... Nothing to do with things like cloaking devices, EWAR, and 25% splash resistances to Sentinels who receive a healthy 15% resistance toward racial weaponry while toting around a 600+ DPS death mini-gun that gains accuracy as you shoot it.
Nope. Not a thing to do with that. All Aim Assist.
Come on guys, seriously..? The Aim Assist thing is a red herring, it's a symptom to a larger disease that's plagued the overall game for a long time now. Even with the Aim Assist there are ways of increasing TTK and making gun-game more skill based.
Have a suggestion for the Planetary Services Department?
Founder of AIV
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Joel II X
Bacon with a bottle of Quafe
5997
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Posted - 2015.02.04 05:25:00 -
[40] - Quote
You're just not playing the right matches. Those matches are evaporating along with the vet player community. |
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XxBlazikenxX
Y.A.M.A.H
112
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Posted - 2015.02.04 05:51:00 -
[41] - Quote
Chromosome 2.0
Terrestrial Combat Officer of Y.A.M.A.H
Recruitment
Minmatar Assault
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Assert Dominance
Ahrendee Mercenaries
813
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Posted - 2015.02.04 06:04:00 -
[42] - Quote
KA24DERT wrote:Get rid of Aim Assist and you'll have your fun fights again.
Aim Assist bears 90% of the blame for low TTK in this game.
The barriers to getting rid of AA are CCP's total lack of vision, and the loud scrubs sucking on the Aim Assist tit that will cry long into the night if it goes away. idk after chromosome it was increasingly harder to register shots with the ar. people said it was because aa was removed but then theres people saying it was never there to begin with. i didnt have problems at all in chrome but uprising was a nightmare of emptying all ur ammo before someone died. there was also a really bad input lag in uprising 1.0 that didnt exist previously that may have played a role in why it was so hard to use the ar. but if aa is taken away everyone will flock to aoe weapons and i dont really want to deal with that again.
LogicGäó
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Exile Templar One
Exile Templar Knights
0
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Posted - 2015.02.04 06:11:00 -
[43] - Quote
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Vrain Matari
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
2473
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Posted - 2015.02.04 06:19:00 -
[44] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:KA24DERT wrote:Get rid of Aim Assist and you'll have your fun fights again.
Aim Assist bears 90% of the blame for low TTK in this game.
The barriers to getting rid of AA are CCP's total lack of vision, and the loud scrubs sucking on the Aim Assist tit that will cry long into the night if it goes away. Lawl, has absolutely nothing to do with the 200 dmg/shot bolt pistols, insanely high alpha of Scrambler Rifle's, Shotguns, Nova Knives... Extremely high DPS of the HMG... Nothing to do with things like cloaking devices, EWAR, and 25% splash resistances to Sentinels who receive a healthy 15% resistance toward racial weaponry while toting around a 600+ DPS death mini-gun that gains accuracy as you shoot it. Nope. Not a thing to do with that. All Aim Assist. Come on guys, seriously..? The Aim Assist thing is a red herring, it's a symptom to a larger disease that's plagued the overall game for a long time now. Even with the Aim Assist there are ways of increasing TTK and making gun-game more skill based. I honestly think you both have a point...the AA tends to compound many of the things you list, Aeon.
It definitely doesn't feel like the same game, and it's nowhere near as interesting.
Imo marketing is driving this ship and the game has very little to do with New Eden anymore. Prolly explains why today was the first match i've played in two weeks.
PSN: RationalSpark
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Cat Merc
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
14862
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Posted - 2015.02.04 07:12:00 -
[45] - Quote
Remember that match we had yesterday Aeon? I had a few good toe to toe fire fights with fellow Assaults.
You know what happened every single time one of us was about to drop? A scout came in and finished the job for us.
I didn't get to have a single proper fire fight without having a scout gank me or my enemy. It was ridiculous.
Cat Merc for C¦¦P¦¦M¦¦9¦¦ CPM Nyan!
Vote 'Keshava' for the new Gallente vehicle name!
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Leadfoot10
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
3121
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Posted - 2015.02.04 07:36:00 -
[46] - Quote
Aim assist is fine.
But damage across the board is too high IMO.
I'd nerf HMGs 15%, and everything else 10%. |
KA24DERT
TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback
993
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Posted - 2015.02.04 08:42:00 -
[47] - Quote
Leadfoot10 wrote:Aim assist is fine, IMO. It is weak compared to just about any other console FPS.
But damage across the board is too high IMO causing a TTK too low for my taste.
For me, FPS games should be about who has the best gun game and situational awareness, not who sees who first and who steps out of cover first. Dust is getting too much like the latter and too little like the former -- but it's not far off.
If Leadfoot ruled the world, I'd nerf HMGs 15% and everything else 10% (except forge guns and PLCs). Leaving aim assist as is, you'd need to start the damage nerf at 30%, and I'm pretty sure you'd have to go up to 50% before the gunfights got fun again.
10% damage nerf will not do anything appreciable to TTK.
BAN ADVANCED GEAR FROM PUBS | Mass Driver Advocate
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Izlare Lenix
Pub Stars
1235
|
Posted - 2015.02.04 10:22:00 -
[48] - Quote
I definitely miss how often you had to reload in the middle of a 1 v 1 back in beta. Now you can kill people in half a clip or just a single hmg burst.
Longer TTK meant more thrilling engagements.
The only real truth in history is that it was bloody.
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noob cavman
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
2099
|
Posted - 2015.02.04 10:46:00 -
[49] - Quote
I want my b series, cheesy noises, long ttk and iron sight thay blocked the other merc completely at 20 meters
I want to be a caveman!
Ccp: LEGION
Gö+GöüGö+ n+¦pâ+(`-ö´)n+ën+¦ Gö+GöüGö+
Full steam ahead into the enemies booty yarrr.
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Mortishai Belmont
G.L.O.R.Y General Tso's Alliance
417
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Posted - 2015.02.04 11:14:00 -
[50] - Quote
You know, I really couldn't agree with you more.
The whole thing feels like it's trying to be COD now, and I really disliked that game, what fun is it when re-spawning takes longer then it does to kill or be killed?
I personally enjoy a fight where your heart gets pounding because it's between you and someone else, just fighting and seeing who's aim wavers first, or if they make the first wrong move to give you an opening to strike the advantage and take the victory.
Really, unless two people run into each other using nothing but Nova knives you don't get the chance at that anymore xD
G.L.O.R.Y Soldier,
I'm that Amarr heavy you warn your team about <3
-Heavy/Logi/Assault/Scout-
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Edgar Reinhart
Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation
23
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Posted - 2015.02.04 11:36:00 -
[51] - Quote
Dust really does need to try to get it's 'uniqueness' back a bit because if it tries to play like, and compete directly with, CoD and Battlefield, people will just play CoD or Battlefield because they're better at doing it. |
Azrael Aranis
Ready to Play
19
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Posted - 2015.02.04 11:45:00 -
[52] - Quote
I've been playing on and off since the start of open Beta after a buddy told me it was "kinda like MAG". So I'm not as experienced as most, but I'd have to agree to what is being said here. I specced into Logi suits because the corp I was in at the time only had one other logi... and you pretty much needed a good balance between the 4 suit types if you wanted to accomplish anything in a match.
These days it doesn't matter what your squad runs with; you either get torn apart from seven different directions, or the reddots evaporate so fast it isn't even fun anymore.
"Good" matches are far and in between (like 1 out of 10) and when I'm in one I get this warm fuzzy feeling reminding me why I keep playing this game, and it'll usually last long enough to get me through the next 10 or so matches that are either "mehh" or downright awful.
Proper firefights are far and in between and are usually ended because a scout shotguns one of the participants in the back of the head. This has always happened; but where it used to be that a squaddie in a scoutsuit would flank the position to brake the stalemate with a few "quacks" from his shotgun, whilst the assaults/heavy kept the enemy distracted, and the logi kept everyone alive and firing... Now a random guy just de-cloaks and gets another cheap kill.
You don't even have to find and capture defensible positions anymore... because apparently if you buy a respec and go scout/minassault you become completely bulletproof in the open. But to be honest; you don't really need that respec either, because slapping a proto weapon of your choice on a militia suit will accomplish pretty much the same thing, you only die a second sooner if someone catches you whilst your not straffing. When I run an ADV fit I'm usually capable of turning around fast enough to see who's shooting me in the back, and if I run Proto I might even get a few shots of. But the only real difference is how much ISK I loose to a BK-42. |
Alaika Arbosa
Minmatar Republic
2459
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Posted - 2015.02.04 12:09:00 -
[53] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:
I really wish we'd achieve true balance and just do away with the power leveled gear all together, honestly. That's another one of those things I genuinely hate. The feeling that, because I don't want to just shell out millions of ISK a day that I can't be -as- competitive as someone who joined at the same time or later than I did. That I have to run low-tiered gear if I want to keep ISK stability and suffer through my gameplay experience because of that.
And yanno, as much as I personally complain about BPO's ruining the 'economy' and all.. I start to realize that my issue isn't with the BPO's so much as the fact that BPO's are a thing to stim the losses from constantly getting your *** handed to you by guys who -can- afford to permanently run the high tier stuff. Which isn't their fault, they're just doing the smart thing and playing within the game rules to the greatest advantage they're allowed... but it certainly doesn't do the gameplay much justice as a whole.
I can't help but wonder what is actually achieved from this power-level gimmick at all. It doesn't offer any meaningful progression, you don't see forum threads of new guys saying, "Gosh, I sure can't wait until I can run that and be as powerful as them".
This sums up my entire Dust experience post Uprising 1.0. During Chromosome and Closed Beta there weren't as many features but the game was more "fun".
I love the game (IDK call me a masochist), I love the idea of being a foot mobile in New Eden. I don't love getting my ass handed to me by min/maxers who gamed a broken system.
I want to believe that things will change as we progress forward but I am not entirely sure that they will. There is a part of me that is afraid that the damage done by PC 1.0 and Passive Isk Generation is too insurmountable to be undone.
We the pc players make up a huge majority of active players. --Roman837
^^ROFLMAO
OMG I need to catch my breath now..
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Justicar Karnellia
Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State
919
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Posted - 2015.02.04 12:48:00 -
[54] - Quote
I hear your frustration.
There's a lot of things working their way into what causes it exactly.
One will be matchmaking, because you'll have "fairer" fights or more fun fights when you're matched evenly, that makes sense. The best matches I have, which are down to the line, which are down to the last few clones, where I don't care how much suits I'm throwing into the wind to get that edge over my opponent are the ones on the end of match screen where I realise it's either totally random people that are unsquadded, or fully matched squads. These fights are rare though.
2nd is map design, and is problematic on many levels. One is the innate advantage that certain maps can give certain builds, be it scouts in windy corridor strewn maps or vehicles , snipers and long range weapons on wide open featureless maps. Of course, on all these maps, there's also the irritating concept that CCP Logicloop's legacy left us... battling for points that are towered over by huge structures that you can camp on, and only if you have a dropship.
And lastly, the game isn't finished, there are missing weapons, dropsuits, vehicles, you name it. It's being maintained by a skeleton crew with the best intentions, but they can't fix all those problems at once. Add to that the despondent game modes, the recycled maps (with aforementioned flaws) and terrible frame rate and any of these things can rear their ugly head to add to that "cheap" kill feel. We've all been there.
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Onesimus Tarsus
is-a-Corporation
2935
|
Posted - 2015.02.04 13:32:00 -
[55] - Quote
Try battlefield 1943. All the goodness of a great fps, none of the headaches of Dust.
KDR matchmaking would patch all the patches into pure patchitudity.
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Aeon Amadi
Chimera Core
8373
|
Posted - 2015.02.04 13:48:00 -
[56] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Remember that match we had yesterday Aeon? I had a few good toe to toe fire fights with fellow Assaults.
You know what happened every single time one of us was about to drop? A scout came in and finished the job for us.
I didn't get to have a single proper fire fight without having a scout gank me or my enemy. It was ridiculous.
Ooooh I know the feeling... Had a few 1-v-1's that ended with an HMG getting into the mix to get that last 100 damage in before any of us even realized he was there just because of the wall of lead that is the HMG...
Mortishai Belmont wrote:You know, I really couldn't agree with you more.
The whole thing feels like it's trying to be COD now, and I really disliked that game, what fun is it when re-spawning takes longer then it does to kill or be killed?
I personally enjoy a fight where your heart gets pounding because it's between you and someone else, just fighting and seeing who's aim wavers first, or if they make the first wrong move to give you an opening to strike the advantage and take the victory.
Really, unless two people run into each other using nothing but Nova knives you don't get the chance at that anymore xD
This fight had my heart beating like mad and I was satisfied with the loss. Joked around with Cat about it until he started getting all e-peen, then I deleted the video and made him suffer for a night before I re-posted it.
It was an interesting turn of events, honestly.
Justicar Karnellia wrote:I hear your frustration.
There's a lot of things working their way into what causes it exactly.
One will be matchmaking, because you'll have "fairer" fights or more fun fights when you're matched evenly, that makes sense. The best matches I have, which are down to the line, which are down to the last few clones, where I don't care how much suits I'm throwing into the wind to get that edge over my opponent are the ones on the end of match screen where I realise it's either totally random people that are unsquadded, or fully matched squads. These fights are rare though.
IMO, it'll only ever be "fair" when there's less dependence on gear/equipment and more on player skill and skill levels as a whole. Why should a player who has max skills but no consistent ISK income have to be less competitive or suffer against a player who can afford to run all proto, even if that player has less in-game skill and player skill?
The whole power level gimmick is annoying and frustrating. There's no actual sense of progression in it beyond, "Yay, now I can PC." All it is is just who can afford the most expensive toys that give them the greatest benefit over those who can't and that mechanic is not going anywhere. You can't balance around ISK because there will -ALWAYS- be someone who has enough to permarun the best gear.
I've yet to hear a good explanation for the Power Level/Tiered BS besides it giving BPO's a reason to exist, but even that seems like a fallacy because of the fact that BPO's exist (and are frequently marketed as) a way for players to stim the ISK losses and build bank. It's a mechanic designed for a player to be less competitive while losing nothing so that they can afford to occasionally be competitive against the people who can.
That right there is madness and really ****** game design.
Have a suggestion for the Planetary Services Department?
Founder of AIV
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Shamarskii Simon
The Hundred Acre Hood RISE of LEGION
77
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Posted - 2015.02.04 17:36:00 -
[57] - Quote
Honestly, the most satifaction and fun i get out the game, is using a magsec as my primary weapon.
^ i haven't played in Chrome... but the TTK is getting too short... It's turning into a CoD clone; losing what made it different.
CCP. Your game is turning into an Armored Core situation. (where AC1-3 was slow, painfully difficult and felt skill was the only way out... In 4, FromSoftware tried going mainstream... Highspeed, simple HUD, huge lockbox... Took the skill out the game. The new guys loved it, the older ones were iffy about it... ACV was a mess because of that. Some of older players already left and the new guys were complaining about it.)
CCP, you have a small group of dedicated people. Don't reach too far out into the market trying for some new customers, and start burning your old ones. Let the new ones come in naturally.
"A dollar in 4 quarters is better than a dollar in 100 pennies"
Entering the void and becoming wind with my repbus.
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Ku Shala
UNITED MERCINARY AND PILOTS ALLIANCE
1203
|
Posted - 2015.02.04 17:45:00 -
[58] - Quote
yep if only hit detection was there. nothing worse than firing at something that is suppose to have the lowest ehp in the game coming at you straight on with the highest dps weapon and it jstrafing and bunny hopping at you running through your bullet stream to OHK you and take 0 damage.
or some stupidly fast strafer that moves faster than you can turn with your sensitivity at 100% that doesnt die when 3-4 people are shooting at it with less than 50 hp left
I feel a little less happy with this game every update, I try to be positive but the fun is being replaced more and more with rage and the desire to play something else........
-¦a+ó a+ú-Æa+äla+ä (CK-0 Specialist)
Caldari Loyalist
Superior technology will privale.
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Reign Omega
T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K General Tso's Alliance
1198
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Posted - 2015.02.04 22:13:00 -
[59] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Remember that match we had yesterday Aeon? I had a few good toe to toe fire fights with fellow Assaults.
You know what happened every single time one of us was about to drop? A scout came in and finished the job for us.
I didn't get to have a single proper fire fight without having a scout gank me or my enemy. It was ridiculous.
I hate this SO BAD, I know it's a team game but damn, get kut of my kool aid.I was having a great fight last week with a notable Vet, well respected player.... can't remember who now and cant check ig mail to get the name. He was in a Cal and I in my trusty Gal, both adv, using our respective racial weapons. Plenty of ducking in and out of cover to utilize regen, shield vs armor, a classic fight. we were off to the side a bit away from objective, so nobody noticed, then after about 20 seconds, out of nowhere BAM! Ganked by a shcout.
Mark a$$ tricks, and bags of dicks....
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Union118
Heaven's Lost Property
397
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Posted - 2015.02.04 23:00:00 -
[60] - Quote
TritusX wrote:Cough cough *brushes BK-42 Assault Combat Rifle* cough cough
What were you talking about? Need a cough drop? If not STFU take ur over powered piece of junk n shove it up your @$$.
As for a more proper responce id say this dude is right. I feel the same way. There are no good battles anymore. Proto stompers shouldnt be in pub matches. Weapons need balancing and seems like noone cares.
Starter Fit Suits are OP :-)
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