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CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 15215	Posted - 2015.01.20 09:15:00 - [1] - Quote Hi everyone, We are going to try and implement a few tweaks to shake up PC a little bit. An interesting thought was been proposed. After a PC battle, team A gets the ISK equivalent of team B's losses, and vice versa. The same Salvage rules apply as normal. This should mean that corporations could run harassment missions, using only low level gear to bleed the opponent. There would be no winner bonus or loser, as the conflict is initiated by the corps themselves. If the holding corp wants to keep its land, they may use overwhelming force, but lose ISK, and the attacking corporation could decide to switch up their tactic and go full proto if they see the opportunity to win the district. This is an idea, please discuss. There will be more small iteration ideas posted over the next few days. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

danthrax martin Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 274	Posted - 2015.01.20 09:21:00 - [2] - Quote Keep shakin'! Pro Gal 'mando, Assault, Scout, Pro Sentinel ak.0 Suicidal A/V Moron General pain in the @ss
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 540	Posted - 2015.01.20 09:39:00 - [3] - Quote Question: could you really bleed a corp Isk wise? A fair number of PC corps have incredible wallets so I'm not sure you would actually weaken them. On the plus side- its a good way for corps to make money by raiding. Question 2: would there be some sort of initial cost (say cost of mcc use) to initiate raid besides clone costs? Regards.
E-Rock Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 43	Posted - 2015.01.20 09:40:00 - [4] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Hi everyone, We are going to try and implement a few tweaks to shake up PC a little bit. An interesting thought was been proposed. After a PC battle, team A gets the ISK equivalent of team B's losses, and vice versa. The same Salvage rules apply as normal. This should mean that corporations could run harassment missions, using only low level gear to bleed the opponent. There would be no winner bonus or loser, as the conflict is initiated by the corps themselves. If the holding corp wants to keep its land, they may use overwhelming force, but lose ISK, and the attacking corporation could decide to switch up their tactic and go full proto if they see the opportunity to win the district. This is an idea, please discuss. There will be more small iteration ideas posted over the next few days. oooooohhhhhhhh. this will cost people lots of isk. I think this could be very interesting. The Japanese players call "hate mail", "fan mail".pÇÇµùÑµ£¼F¬PsñºS+êsñ½ -Founder of CKC and UCKC -Molon Labe

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 15218	Posted - 2015.01.20 10:01:00 - [5] - Quote Should work deliciously with earned Clone Packs through Warbarges. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 541	Posted - 2015.01.20 10:03:00 - [6] - Quote Lol. Sounds good here.
E-Rock Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 43	Posted - 2015.01.20 10:04:00 - [7] - Quote My eyes have turned to AUR signs $.$ The Japanese players call "hate mail", "fan mail".pÇÇµùÑµ£¼F¬PsñºS+êsñ½ -Founder of CKC and UCKC -Molon Labe
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 4273	Posted - 2015.01.20 10:06:00 - [8] - Quote Does this mean that clone biomass rewards will be replaced with this system or supplemented by it? Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 15218	Posted - 2015.01.20 10:13:00 - [9] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Does this mean that clone biomass rewards will be replaced with this system or supplemented by it? Eliminate Clones as a currency - I would see them feed into Clone Pack generation in Warbarges and to instigate Attacks without Clone packs - possibly reinstating the logistical penalties at the same time. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6621	Posted - 2015.01.20 10:50:00 - [10] - Quote I would suggest making the value of what you destroy a "bonus" rather than the be all end all. Oh wait you said PC. Yeah definitely. I like it. Especially since you're planning nanogoo resources which can be sold. Also, found the logi tourist! Please cry directly into the bucket. -Ripley Riley

pumping up Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 78	Posted - 2015.01.20 10:52:00 - [11] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: After a PC battle, team A gets the ISK equivalent of team B's losses, and vice versa. The same Salvage rules apply as normal. Isnt this highely exploitable? Since it generates more value each time.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 4273	Posted - 2015.01.20 10:52:00 - [12] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Does this mean that clone biomass rewards will be replaced with this system or supplemented by it? Eliminate Clones as a currency - I would see them feed into Clone Pack generation in Warbarges and to instigate Attacks without Clone packs - possibly reinstating the logistical penalties at the same time. This sounds like a fantastic idea then. You remove biomass and you remove most if not all of the current farming that is going on in PC. I think in the long term though you have got to implement wealth generation to districts again. It just has to be based on an active system so the returns equal the effort. 5 districts should take 5 times the effort to extract wealth basically. That linear escalation of effort just wasn't the case under the reign of passive ISK. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2846	Posted - 2015.01.20 11:42:00 - [13] - Quote I'm having trouble seeing the benefit of holding districts. Warbarges will be creating clones, though perhaps at a lower rate, and will undoubtedly be as mobile in one way or another. It takes significantly more effort to defend than attack. Attackers could just run APEX suits with their free clone packs and get destroyed but if they kill 1 suit, they "win" the ISK war. If a defender tries this they lose the district. Also, it seems like a Nerf in payouts. Assuming each Proto suit is 200k, killing a full 150 mercs doesn't even break 2mil per player (that's probably including salvage too). Dust is there! I was real! Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~
Supacharjed Xer Cloud Consortium 128	Posted - 2015.01.20 12:41:00 - [14] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: I'm having trouble seeing the benefit of holding districts. Warbarges will be creating clones, though perhaps at a lower rate, and will undoubtedly be as mobile in one way or another. It takes significantly more effort to defend than attack. Attackers could just run APEX suits with their free clone packs and get destroyed but if they kill 1 suit, they "win" the ISK war. If a defender tries this they lose the district. Also, it seems like a Nerf in payouts. Assuming each Proto suit is 200k, killing a full 150 mercs doesn't even break 2mil per player (that's probably including salvage too). Yeah, the fact that the attackers get is easier is a bit ****. There should be some form of home field advantage. Maybe a scanner you can install what shows everyone above a certain profile size. Faster respawns. More spawns across the maps. All installations are on the defender's side. etc. Has been playing Dust for ages. Can't aim for peanuts.
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6626	Posted - 2015.01.20 12:57:00 - [15] - Quote Can this be applied to facwar at a lower percentage? PC is great... but facwar needs to be more rewarding than pubs. Especially if you're expected to grind away at a string of losses. One would think that as factions lose more they could be gouged for more. Also, found the logi tourist! Please cry directly into the bucket. -Ripley Riley
Spartacus Dust NECROM0NGERS 542	Posted - 2015.01.20 13:11:00 - [16] - Quote Hey Rattati, as polite as I can, I got EVE for one Reason...DUST...after the apocalypse of fanfest 2014, it kind of killed my reasons to be involved with PC, the most I got in the aftermath were a few orbital escort contracts, and that ended, even tso's who was the only real legit group in the area, had a recent split. I am coming to you as a New Eden Player, please think of more Synergy between the two games. Perhaps expand beyond Molden Heath, perhaps create more incentive for the two games to work together. Ratting Bounty Bonus's, g Since there is little to no talk of Legion, and unless we're in for a HAPPY surprise at fanfest, my current stock is in the curiously improving DUST514 that is somehow retaining members, but look at the statistics, the fights over beacons are next to nothing these days which is sad. It was said mercs would produce new stuff for EVE thus helping create synergy... Who know's maybe all this is in legion, but until some word is released on the ominously possibly ditched game, I have high hopes for DUST becoming a larger part of New Eden as a whole Twitter @Matthew_Dust Executor of Caps and Mercs Alliance.
Spartacus Dust NECROM0NGERS 542	Posted - 2015.01.20 13:20:00 - [17] - Quote and if you need more legit reasons I sank 300 cash in plex for Caps and Mercs, what was suppose to be a DUST/EVE alliance before fanfest pushed it into failure cascade. I sank 800 cash in plex for The Black Sails, a small pirate alliance that lived in molden heath and took contracts for orbital beacons. overall in the course of the past (years now) my dedication to dust has caused me to spend 1,000's of dollars (most of it on EVE and some on DUST, not to mention websites/teamspeak servers etc) in the belief that the two games would be better linked. I really hope CCP does not crush my hopes and dreams for the two games. ----------- Twitter @Matthew_Dust Executor of Caps and Mercs Alliance.
Lazer Fo Cused Shining Flame Amarr Empire 549	Posted - 2015.01.20 13:29:00 - [18] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Hi everyone, We are going to try and implement a few tweaks to shake up PC a little bit. An interesting thought was been proposed. After a PC battle, team A gets the ISK equivalent of team B's losses, and vice versa. The same Salvage rules apply as normal. This should mean that corporations could run harassment missions, using only low level gear to bleed the opponent. There would be no winner bonus or loser, as the conflict is initiated by the corps themselves. If the holding corp wants to keep its land, they may use overwhelming force, but lose ISK, and the attacking corporation could decide to switch up their tactic and go full proto if they see the opportunity to win the district. This is an idea, please discuss. There will be more small iteration ideas posted over the next few days. 1. Richer corps wil just crush others because they can afford to spam proto 2. Take a noob corp with all basic they would get hammered by a proto stomping corp, yes they may get richer but only if they manage to kill the 2 proto heavys with a logi behind them and invisible scouts OHK with shotguns, they would have to kill to get rich 3. Since its skirmish if you start with proto you will get to an objective quicker than if in basic, you get the majority of the objectives and set up shop then it can be all over which means they have to swap to proto to push which really they should have started with 4. I really do not see it working
Alaika Arbosa Minmatar Republic 2397	Posted - 2015.01.20 13:33:00 - [19] - Quote When you say "Rewards" are you talking about EoM payout or are you talking about "adding value" to District in the form of Rewards like Moon Goo? Ad Space Available Here 1m Isk/day Mail me message after transferring Isk (sig updated upon transfer completion)
Hansei Kaizen The Jackson Five 324	Posted - 2015.01.20 13:37:00 - [20] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: Question: could you really bleed a corp Isk wise? A fair number of PC corps have incredible wallets so I'm not sure you would actually weaken them. This is really interesting: How much ISK is there actually around in the PC corps? CAN they be bled dry at all? If so, how much effort / time would this require? Can anyone give an estimate? The answer to your complaint is PvE. Always. NPE status: (Gò»°Gûí°n+ëGò»n+¦ Gö+GöüGö+ Casual solo

Alaika Arbosa Minmatar Republic 2397	Posted - 2015.01.20 13:39:00 - [21] - Quote Hansei Kaizen wrote: Imp Smash wrote: Question: could you really bleed a corp Isk wise? A fair number of PC corps have incredible wallets so I'm not sure you would actually weaken them. This is really interesting: How much ISK is there actually around in the PC corps? CAN they be bled dry at all? If so, how much effort / time would this require? Can anyone give an estimate? With some of the numbers I've heard tossed around, I'd be surprised if it wasn't in the Trillions across all of the farmers (whether still active or not) Ad Space Available Here 1m Isk/day Mail me message after transferring Isk (sig updated upon transfer completion)
Brush Master Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1400	Posted - 2015.01.20 14:10:00 - [22] - Quote Once we have the whole earn clones over time to attack with and make sure the earned clones that can be stored is high enough that you can launch a massive attack, might be a fun idea. Dust Veteran. June 2012 - ? True Logi. Flying DS from the start. @dustreports
Dust User KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 1498	Posted - 2015.01.20 14:12:00 - [23] - Quote Why should anyone be rewarded for losing a battle? Also, I've been in PC matches where the other team brings MLT and STD gear and might kill 20 clones at best. Not sure this would accomplish much.
ReGnYuM Red Star. 3441	Posted - 2015.01.20 14:30:00 - [24] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Hi everyone, We are going to try and implement a few tweaks to shake up PC a little bit. An interesting thought was been proposed. After a PC battle, team A gets the ISK equivalent of team B's losses, and vice versa. The same Salvage rules apply as normal. This should mean that corporations could run harassment missions, using only low level gear to bleed the opponent. There would be no winner bonus or loser, as the conflict is initiated by the corps themselves. If the holding corp wants to keep its land, they may use overwhelming force, but lose ISK, and the attacking corporation could decide to switch up their tactic and go full proto if they see the opportunity to win the district. This is an idea, please discuss. There will be more small iteration ideas posted over the next few days. I really just don't see this shaking up PC or adding another dimension of warfare. 1. You imply that holding a district in itself justifies the risk of it being repeatably raided. Currently, no definitive incentive for holding districts exist. Now a couple reason why I would not use raiding as a mechanic for warfare (Personally). Speaking from my experience of fighting and planning numerous PC's Morale: I would never send my players into a battle with a knowingly disadvantage. Its absurd. Furthermore, its very hard to even justify the benefits, and almost impossible to show quantitative results to my corporation. Logistically: Not the equipment spammers, but the players who organize teams, squads, attacks...etc. This is probably the one of the hardest jobs in a active PC corp, with an equally taxing rate of Burnout. Why would I waste their time with planning raids, when the benefit is so little?
Cat Merc Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 14526	Posted - 2015.01.20 16:11:00 - [25] - Quote As was mentioned before, bleeding a corp of ISK is unlikely. The amount of ISK sitting in a lot of vet's wallets is staggering. I have 200mil and I can honestly run proto gear practically forever with this. And I'm on the low-mid end of the scale when it comes to rich. Cat Merc for C¦¦P¦¦M¦¦9¦¦ CPM Nyan! Assault Conglomerate: Because we don't shave
Cat Merc Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 14526	Posted - 2015.01.20 16:17:00 - [26] - Quote Oh and for people without fat stacks of ISK, they can fund proto gear using Aurum. So umm... yeah.... Cat Merc for C¦¦P¦¦M¦¦9¦¦ CPM Nyan! Assault Conglomerate: Because we don't shave
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 5482	Posted - 2015.01.20 16:38:00 - [27] - Quote Personally, I am worried that doing nothing but exchanging destroyed ISK value will erode the value of holding districts. That you can gain some ISK back, but unless you can defend in militia, will probably lose money every match. I think it may be warranted that there is some additional gain for a successful battle. But with the minimum thresholds for match completion set to ensure that a certain reasonable value of fighting occurred. And then a daily "sov bill" flat fee corps every day to hold the district. Assuming the payout is decent, and the corp has a reasonable tax rate, the sov bill is easily paid for through somewhat regular activity on the district. But it wouldn't be cost effective to keep a district you didn't need to get fights. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
LAVALLOIS Nash 455	Posted - 2015.01.20 17:32:00 - [28] - Quote If simple trading happens, corps should have an asset bank, and districts should generate items or resources. It should be really varied, so that each district can hold a special value for its owner as long as they are able to get its production to market. That would give corps a good incentive to hold districts, as their long term profitability and strategic values of the goods can override short term losses. As for What Rattati proposed, i like it! Not every battle has to be analogous to a full scale military engagement. Less powerful corps running hit and run raids on the districts of established powerful corps would be a great dynamic. Its the golden tactic of the outmatched enemy: warfare though attrition. If youre going in and want to do a raid, you arent going to play the game to hold points and such. You are going to play to wear down manpower. This means a professional established team is going to have to fight a asymmetrical fight, something their tactics and planning doesn't focus on. Instead of holding the points and fortifying them, they might get lured into going into seek and destroy mode. Not to mention there are some militia/STD fights that are good for exactly this. Grab a 600 ISK militia plasma cannon fit, wait around the corner in a hotzone, the enemy proto scout rounds the corner.....BOOM! +150,000ISK for the raid. See an enemy assault win a fight against a teammate, but only has a little health left? Militia flaylock pow pow theres another 150,000ISK. Call in some cheap vehicles, get some lucky roadkill or catch an enemy squad of assaults out in the open (On a search and destroy lure lol) and unload on them with a cheap blaster tank. Even if they spawn back in proto AV and kill the 59,000ISK tank, each suit you wreck could be potentially worth double that. The only deal breaker is the MCC. It would be far too prohibitive to sacrifice one for a hit and run raid.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1841	Posted - 2015.01.20 18:05:00 - [29] - Quote LAVALLOIS Nash wrote: Optimistic about Attrition If Ambush is any indication, the squad of guys in proto gear don't tend to lose many suits to entire teams of MLT-clad opposition. 70-0 is not an uncommon sight end-of-match, and 10 kills at 200k per suit is only amounts to 2M. Split 16 ways, and you're looking at 125k paycheck. Getting stomped pays better in pubs.
LAVALLOIS Nash 455	Posted - 2015.01.20 18:55:00 - [30] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: If Ambush is any indication, the squad of guys in proto gear don't tend to lose many suits to entire teams of MLT-clad opposition. 70-0 is not an uncommon sight end-of-match, and 10 kills at 200k per suit is only amounts to 2M. Split 16 ways, and you're looking at 125k paycheck. Getting stomped pays better in pubs. Yeah im going to ride the optimism train lol. I think its not exactly comparable though. If a raid type fight is run exactly like an Ambush, then yeah, because the only objective is seek and destroy the enemy. But if it takes place on a skim map, they cant seek and destroy too much because it could be a trap. The enemy could start off looking like its a militia raid, and suddenly a few minutes later go full pro and start taking objectives. Or, make it look like you want to take objectives, and just set up a meat grinder trap at a objective. it opens up a whole new range of tactics. Raiding is different from conquering. In a pub Ambush, one team conquers the other, in a raid, we just show up, cause some damage, and go. Not to mention the factor that is not found in pubs. Clone losses from packs that corps have to stock themselves. Someone with no districts but a warbarge that can make clones has assets that can be used much more frivolously, whereas a corporation that is holding a district cannot afford to have its clone stock depleted in raids just incase one of the bigger corps moves in for a land grab. With changes to times and such, its possible that even the best corp might not be able to field its best 16 for every raid call, especially if the raid happens while their A team is committed elsewhere. Is it going to fail more times than succeed? Probably. But those few times when they are unprepared for a raid, thats where the fun will really happen. Also, dont forget about privateering. If I got assets like clones and 15 other people to man them, i can get contracts from a Corp who wants me to raid some of his enemies districts to draw manpower and resources to the targeted district. it could even be done so that it coincides with a real attack. So while the A team of a corp is stomping my ragtag raid pirates, their B team is losing to the corp that contracted me for the real district thats been targeted for conquering. You know what im trying to say here? Corp gets two timers started for attacks on two districts, but they dont know that one of the attacks is a ruse. Multiply that across many corps and alliances, and the top players get stretched out to hold more territory. Thats why I remain optimistic about attrition, because its unconventional and asymmetrical nature and its unpredictability can impact those that were not expecting it. Or those who were only prepared for textbook engagements.

ZymposieR Rusty Dead Man's Game RUST415 15	Posted - 2015.01.20 20:23:00 - [31] - Quote Loser gets rewarded accordingly to destroyed gear. Winner gets way more, maby accordingly to number of clones destroyed or left behind + destroyed gear... In a raid, you get payed for everything u destroy as an attacker. Including turrets, suits, nanohives, MCC damage if u can capture one or more objectives. In addition you can get an advantage of you captures objectives. You can't deploy more than 4-8 players as an attacker in a raid, but defend with more.... As an defender you get payed for each clone you kill of the Raiders. Number of clones within a range, like anything between 40 - 149 is determined by the attacker.
Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1026	Posted - 2015.01.20 20:33:00 - [32] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Does this mean that clone biomass rewards will be replaced with this system or supplemented by it? Eliminate Clones as a currency - I would see them feed into Clone Pack generation in Warbarges and to instigate Attacks without Clone packs - possibly reinstating the logistical penalties at the same time. I fully support this idea. Overlord of Broman
Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1026	Posted - 2015.01.20 20:35:00 - [33] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Hi everyone, We are going to try and implement a few tweaks to shake up PC a little bit. An interesting thought was been proposed. After a PC battle, team A gets the ISK equivalent of team B's losses, and vice versa. The same Salvage rules apply as normal. This should mean that corporations could run harassment missions, using only low level gear to bleed the opponent. There would be no winner bonus or loser, as the conflict is initiated by the corps themselves. If the holding corp wants to keep its land, they may use overwhelming force, but lose ISK, and the attacking corporation could decide to switch up their tactic and go full proto if they see the opportunity to win the district. This is an idea, please discuss. There will be more small iteration ideas posted over the next few days. This will fix the abuse that has been rampant since PC begun by stopping the farming. Make it happen. For those complaining about not making ISK for PC battles you should at the least break even unless they're running crap gear, in which case wtf did you die so much?! Overlord of Broman
hfderrtgvcd 1729	Posted - 2015.01.20 21:47:00 - [34] - Quote You're completely ignoring the main issue with pc that there is no reason to hold districts. This change will just reduce payouts and make winning meaningless. You can't fight in here! This is the war room.
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 7300	Posted - 2015.01.20 22:26:00 - [35] - Quote I like this idea. Plus it would be a good way for newer corps to get something out of PC without having as much to put on the line, and I think it could be amended or adapted to suit other needs or open up PC in other ways. Vitantur Nothus wrote: LAVALLOIS Nash wrote: Optimistic about Attrition If Ambush is any indication, one squad of guys in proto gear don't tend to lose many suits to entire teams of MLT-clad opposition. 70-0 is not an uncommon sight end-of-match, and 10 kills at 200k per suit only amounts to 2M. Split 16 ways, you're looking at a 125k paycheck. Getting stomped pays better in pubs. I don't know that comparing PC Skirmish to Ambush Pubs is an appropriate measure. I think that you are more likely to see many more squads working together even if they are in standard gear, and likely to do better. Plus, you don't have that stupid "Smart Deploy" and have a redline (I think, if its anything like Pub Skirm). Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 751	Posted - 2015.01.20 23:29:00 - [36] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Hi everyone, We are going to try and implement a few tweaks to shake up PC a little bit. An interesting thought was been proposed. After a PC battle, team A gets the ISK equivalent of team B's losses, and vice versa. The same Salvage rules apply as normal. This should mean that corporations could run harassment missions, using only low level gear to bleed the opponent. There would be no winner bonus or loser, as the conflict is initiated by the corps themselves. If the holding corp wants to keep its land, they may use overwhelming force, but lose ISK, and the attacking corporation could decide to switch up their tactic and go full proto if they see the opportunity to win the district. This is an idea, please discuss. There will be more small iteration ideas posted over the next few days. I like this idea in that it adds a payout to a loss, hypothetically taking some of the sting out of it for new players. Aside from that I don't see the point. I've ended countless PCs laughing at the garbage in the salvage pile, mlt this, mlt that, that someone thought they could use to save a buck that instead cost them a win. Truth is, if you aren't able to defeat your opponent you will lose. And to try and whittle at them economically through a mechanism like this would require: A) You be in possession of a TEAM that can excel in substandard gear vs. upper level gear (which, based on Pubs and people's inability to do anything there without their fullproto binkie in hand, isn't likely) and B) The group you're fighting effectively cease ALL financially gainful activities (they would have to STOP making isk in any way) so that there could be a finite total to whittle at. Whittling at an opponent on one side while it just grows on the other equals a wash, all losses balanced out by new gains. A Zero Sum Game. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 751	Posted - 2015.01.20 23:36:00 - [37] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: I like this idea. Plus it would be a good way for newer corps to get something out of PC without having as much to put on the line, and I think it could be amended or adapted to suit other needs or open up PC in other ways. Vitantur Nothus wrote: LAVALLOIS Nash wrote: Optimistic about Attrition If Ambush is any indication, one squad of guys in proto gear don't tend to lose many suits to entire teams of MLT-clad opposition. 70-0 is not an uncommon sight end-of-match, and 10 kills at 200k per suit only amounts to 2M. Split 16 ways, you're looking at a 125k paycheck. Getting stomped pays better in pubs. I don't know that comparing PC Skirmish to Ambush Pubs is an appropriate measure. I think that you are more likely to see many more squads working together even if they are in standard gear, and likely to do better. Plus, you don't have that stupid "Smart Deploy" and have a redline (I think, if its anything like Pub Skirm). Ambush is probably the best relative comparison tho, since the point will be clone/asset destruction not map control. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 751	Posted - 2015.01.20 23:39:00 - [38] - Quote Redacted, doublepost Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1849	Posted - 2015.01.21 03:50:00 - [39] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: I don't know that comparing PC Skirmish to Ambush Pubs is an appropriate measure. The point is that militia gear doesn't hold up well against an organized, well-equipped opponent. I might be alone in this, but I would be disheartened to see even a percentage of PC matches reduced to the likes of a pubstomp. We're discussing the highest level of competitive play here. Consider the egos, aspirations, bitter rivalries, and the enormity of resources in play. These matches are where the best of the best meet; each and every one should be spectacularly expensive and rewarding. Think back to the first time you were picked for PC by a Field Commander. That feeling -- that right of passage -- should be as meaningful to the players of tomorrow as it was for us in times past. PC is the only endgame we have. It is where the heroes are. It is our Valhalla. Why would we risk cheapening that experience? To breathe new life into PC, we must find a way to resurrect the competitive spirit and sense of corporate identity we had coming into Uprising. Holding land must have meaning, but it must also require effort and commitment ... Soon, we will all get a warbarge which pays us perks as we progress. We will dock that warbarge in a corp flotilla, which will also pays players perks. What if the value of the corp-based, flotilla payouts were determined solely by the count and the types of districts held by that corp? That's Step 1. Add meaning to district ownership. Now onto Step 2 (Activity) ... Each district under corporate control must be "maintained" through player activity or it reverts to NPC ownership. At the end of a given period (say one week), a corp's total number of completed daily missions is tallied. If that number meets district maintenance threshold, then business as usual. If however, the threshold is not met, surplus districts revolt and return to NPC ownership. And finally, Step 3 (Corporate Identity) ... Hey, Mr. Newbro! Want to earn SP and Isk faster? Join a PC-active corp! Contribute to the cause by completing your Daily Missions; see your efforts appreciated and rewarded! Hey, Mr Veteran! You've developed quite the ruthless reputation. Want to browbeat even more NPCs into submission? Reinvest Isk in your warbarge's "warlord" skill. Broadcast your acts of ruthlessness and valor across the sector; amplify your contribution to corporate district control. Hey, Mr. CEO! Want to keep your districts intact and reward your troops? Get active! Want to expand your control? Perhaps conquer Molten Heath? You're going to need more troops, so get out there and recruit like a Contraban Joe! Sample Maths (Illustration Only) Cargo Hub: Improve vendor buyback prices by 1% Research Lab: Increase end-of-match SP gains by 1% Production Facility: Increase end-of-match Isk gains by 1% Corp Flotilla Perk (1): Vendor Buyback Price = +1% + Cargo Hub Bonus Corp Flotilla Perk (2): End-of-match SP Gains = +1% + Research Lab Bonus Corp Flotilla Perk (3): End-of-match Isk Gains = +1% + Production Facility Bonus Merc Warbarge, Level 1 Warlord: Reputation sufficient to suppress/control 1 district Merc Warbarge, Level 5 Warlord: Reputation sufficient to suppress/control 3 districts Sample Maintenance Requirement: Player must complete 15 missions over the course of the week to be counted as "active" Sample Corp: 50 districts under corp control (+16% Isk, +17% SP, +17% Vendor Prices) 10 vets, warlord level 5 (supports 30 district) 20 newbros, warlord level 1 (supports 20 districts) Sample, Week 1: Of the corp's 20 newbros, 15 meet maintenance req't (15 districts supported) Of the corp's 10 vets, 3 meet maintenance req't (9 districts supported) Of the corp's 50 districts, 26 revolt and return to NPC control. Sample Corp enters Week 2 with 24 districts (+8% Isk, +8% SP, +8% Vendor Prices) (+/- districts gained or loss through traditional conquest)
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 546	Posted - 2015.01.21 04:22:00 - [40] - Quote Well, assuming you eliminated clones as a currency and instead made them simply a resource for offense/defense, you could theoretically still have a high 'winner' payout in isk. Assuming Corp A attacks Corp B, Corp A runs BPOs. Corp B runs BPOs. Everyone wastes time and loses money. So someone is going to start running ADV or Proto to get the win and get the winner payout. The other side sees non BPO/Militia gear, and switches to better gear to keep up. It would be like a gear arms race. If the defenders just defend in cheap/free suits they will not lose money, the attackers won't gain money, but they might lose their district when the attacks run better stuff. So they will need to run better stuff. There needs to be some kind of incentive to not just run BPOs. The attackers can then actually bleed money this way as the defenders will be encouraged not to run free suits -- then they can get the isk they kill. The winner payout makes it monetarily worth it. Since clones are no longer a currency there will be no more farming them. It will be a logistical resource (for both sides) and the economy will be based upon winning and using gear to achieve said win. We were talking about this thread with some corp members in squad last night. EVERYONE laughed because we can all imagine BPO battles. Beyond that, there is also the issue of abandoning districts. If it merely becomes BPO battles, some people will simply abandon districts and run around attacking corps because lulz and the potential to knick some of their cash. We will see fewer land holders. So you would need to have a SOLID incentive, ie. solid economic benefit, to holding districts. This is all me just theory crafting -- but those are some things I would do to both save money and mess with other people's money at no risk to myself. EDIt NOTE: I JUST now went and dropped some Aur on Apex Suits and BPOS to be ready for this just in case ;P

SILENTSAM 69 SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION 750	Posted - 2015.01.21 04:31:00 - [41] - Quote Please do this. It is a great idea. Also, if you can track the amount of ISK destroyed in a battle, why not include that as a kind of stat for us to track. I think DUST players should know if they are being ISK efficient, the way EVE players get to know. I have been playing that way my entire career hoping that one day the stat would be included, and show my previous ISK efficiency, and giving me my favourite stat to track.
Duke Noobiam The Dukes of Death 347	Posted - 2015.01.21 16:06:00 - [42] - Quote I like this idea very much.
D3LTA Blitzkrieg II 0uter.Heaven 169	Posted - 2015.01.21 17:05:00 - [43] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Hi everyone, We are going to try and implement a few tweaks to shake up PC a little bit. An interesting thought was been proposed. After a PC battle, team A gets the ISK equivalent of team B's losses, and vice versa. The same Salvage rules apply as normal. This should mean that corporations could run harassment missions, using only low level gear to bleed the opponent. There would be no winner bonus or loser, as the conflict is initiated by the corps themselves. If the holding corp wants to keep its land, they may use overwhelming force, but lose ISK, and the attacking corporation could decide to switch up their tactic and go full proto if they see the opportunity to win the district. This is an idea, please discuss. There will be more small iteration ideas posted over the next few days. more glorified pub matches is really all you got? The best leaders inspire greatness in others
Hawkin P Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 575	Posted - 2015.01.21 18:10:00 - [44] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Hi everyone, We are going to try and implement a few tweaks to shake up PC a little bit. ... This is an totally bad idea, please discuss. This is a horrible plan. This means the players will be making even less ISK than they are now. Which already isn't enough to cover expenses. More importantly, What happens if a corp just no shows the battle? No one makes any ISK? This will now be the ultimate troll, they bring in a better team you just no show, they want the worthless district they have to sit through 3 battles without making any ISK at all. Districts are worthless. ISK payouts are now reduced even further. Now you give people absolutely no reason to care if they win or lose their battles? It's like you don't want to give people any reason to play in PC at ALL. PS Salvage is a joke, you might end up making 5 maybe 10k extra ISK after selling your salvage from a PC battle. Molon Labe CEO
RemingtonBeaver Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1759	Posted - 2015.01.21 18:26:00 - [45] - Quote Yeah, these changes are heinous. The ISK is the only reason to be in PC. You can easily lose way more money than you make in a PC. I've seen people lose 10-20 proto suits in a match with a payout of 2-5 million ISK, you can lose your ass on a tough fight. You can lose 1-10 suits and make 1-3 million in a PC. Some players play for the theatrics of it, I'd say there are 3 of them. No one plays for salvage. NO ONE. Most of us do it to get payed. I know players that even with the ISK incentive don't play, because of the stress, and the lag. How about we work on the lag first? Did you ask people that participate in PC or are you just asking people that have no idea what they're talking about? Go Here and vote! 1 like is 1 vote!
Hawkin P Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 575	Posted - 2015.01.21 18:27:00 - [46] - Quote How about this why don't you pick a new region of space to try out this little idea of yours. Run it in conjunction with normal PC, finally add something to the new game without always taking things away. Molon Labe CEO
Alaika Arbosa Minmatar Republic 2404	Posted - 2015.01.21 19:01:00 - [47] - Quote Hawkin P wrote: How about this why don't you pick a new region of space to try out this little idea of yours. Run it in conjunction with normal PC, finally add something to the new game without always taking things away. Why not open up all of NPC 0.0? Ad Space Available Here 1m Isk/day Mail me message after transferring Isk (sig updated upon transfer completion)
Viktor's Alt Negative-Impact Back and Forth 18	Posted - 2015.01.21 19:42:00 - [48] - Quote The thing that many PC directors and CEO's say is "There is no real reason to own districts" If you profit it is only slightly if at all. With this new system what is a real benefit of owning districts? Are we still going to be in PC carebear land where the land you own does not really matter its just a sign in space with your name on it? Will there be any incentive to take land from people and hold it? This does not really seem to solve any PC problems.
E-Rock Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 46	Posted - 2015.01.21 23:50:00 - [49] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Hi everyone, We are going to try and implement a few tweaks to shake up PC a little bit. An interesting thought was been proposed. After a PC battle, team A gets the ISK equivalent of team B's losses, and vice versa. The same Salvage rules apply as normal. This should mean that corporations could run harassment missions, using only low level gear to bleed the opponent. There would be no winner bonus or loser, as the conflict is initiated by the corps themselves. If the holding corp wants to keep its land, they may use overwhelming force, but lose ISK, and the attacking corporation could decide to switch up their tactic and go full proto if they see the opportunity to win the district. This is an idea, please discuss. There will be more small iteration ideas posted over the next few days. Hmmmm, I wonder if this makes all that much sense after sleeping on it. All BPO battles?!?! Nerfing rewards on PC (if I am understanding it correctly)? "Harassment Missions?" <------------ It might as well be a glorified PUB stomp match. By implementing these changes, you could potentially destroy the competitive edge that PC currently has. The nice thing abput PC now is that the salvage is usually good because the teams either side of the match, if they have any sense at all, are running proto. What makes PC awesome now is that it is ALL OR NOTHING. It gives you an incentive to throw down everything that you possibly can in order to get a win. If both side's get rewards, like I said before, it just makes it a glorified PUB match that has a name and a district in Moldon Heath (YAY!!! and noob corps will be able drool over a district that they will hold for a day or so!!!!!!!!). Redline matches when the other team is losing, will be the same in PC as they are in PUBs if this is implemented. It makes districts worthless if they don't generate any ISK. All the blueberries/raspberries/dumbsses that snipe in the redline in their heavies w/Thale's & Fork's will just be hiding behind tanks & sht just so they can get good salvage and the ISK rewards from it while not losing anythig. Keep it all of nothing. It is the only thing that keeps this game mode competitive or you are just taking away a mechanic from the game that was really cool, and making it lame. Anyone here remember skirmish 1.0. That was awesome. Look what happened to that. Please don't nerf PC. The Japanese players call "hate mail", "fan mail".pÇÇµùÑµ£¼F¬PsñºS+êsñ½ -Founder of CKC and UCKC -Molon Labe
Kaze Eyrou DUST University Ivy League 1775	Posted - 2015.01.22 05:46:00 - [50] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Hi everyone, We are going to try and implement a few tweaks to shake up PC a little bit. An interesting thought was been proposed. After a PC battle, team A gets the ISK equivalent of team B's losses, and vice versa. The same Salvage rules apply as normal. This should mean that corporations could run harassment missions, using only low level gear to bleed the opponent. There would be no winner bonus or loser, as the conflict is initiated by the corps themselves. If the holding corp wants to keep its land, they may use overwhelming force, but lose ISK, and the attacking corporation could decide to switch up their tactic and go full proto if they see the opportunity to win the district. This is an idea, please discuss. There will be more small iteration ideas posted over the next few days. CCP Rattati wrote: Should work deliciously with earned Clone Packs through Warbarges. CCP Rattati wrote: Eliminate Clones as a currency - I would see them feed into Clone Pack generation in Warbarges and to instigate Attacks without Clone packs - possibly reinstating the logistical penalties at the same time. What a time to be alive! CB Vet // Logi Bro // @KazeEyrou Kaze's Helpful Links

Zaria Min Deir 0uter.Heaven 1068	Posted - 2015.01.22 06:32:00 - [51] - Quote Hawkin P wrote: This is a horrible plan. This means the players will be making even less ISK than they are now. Which already isn't enough to cover expenses. More importantly, What happens if a corp just no shows the battle? No one makes any ISK? This will now be the ultimate troll, they bring in a better team you just no show, they want the worthless district they have to sit through 3 battles without making any ISK at all. Districts are worthless. ISK payouts are now reduced even further. Now you give people absolutely no reason to care if they win or lose their battles? It's like you don't want to give people any reason to play in PC at ALL. PS Salvage is a joke, you might end up making 5 maybe 10k extra ISK after selling your salvage from a PC battle. Pretty much covered the points I wanted to, so, yeah. This. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 4327	Posted - 2015.01.22 08:34:00 - [52] - Quote Again if this is a step towards having districts producing resources then it makes perfect sense. If people no show a match then no, you shouldn't get any ISK as there wasn't even a fight. Districts do need to have value and produce value so that losing the land means you lose that production of wealth. Right now though you currently have an entire cluster of "farming districts" that serve no purpose but to grow clones and then have the owner attack and make ISK using the auto kill mechanic that was meant to safeguard no shows. CCP gave people a chance and many people again just turned it into an opportunity to not actually fight but farm ISK. I would vary the keep what you kill mechanic though by dramatically skewing the salvage to the winning team. The team that has control of the battlefield naturally would be the people that actually pick the place clean of gear that survived the fight. ISK going to both sides of the fight makes sense. Winner takes all has been a detriment to planetary conquest for a while. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
steadyhand amarr shadows of 514 3488	Posted - 2015.01.22 10:24:00 - [53] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Personally, I am worried that doing nothing but exchanging destroyed ISK value will erode the value of holding districts. That you can gain some ISK back, but unless you can defend in militia, will probably lose money every match. I think it may be warranted that there is some additional gain for a successful battle. But with the minimum thresholds for match completion set to ensure that a certain reasonable value of fighting occurred. And then a daily "sov bill" flat fee corps every day to hold the district. Assuming the payout is decent, and the corp has a reasonable tax rate, the sov bill is easily paid for through somewhat regular activity on the district. But it wouldn't be cost effective to keep a district you didn't need to get fights. make districts produce warbarge modules and or parts that can be sold on the market...leading to corps raiding the corps for isk who end up giving the isk back for warbarge stuff? Very basic idea but makes D's worth holding You can never have to many chaples -Templar True adamance
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 4327	Posted - 2015.01.22 10:32:00 - [54] - Quote One question I have is that if these changes are deployed before the Corporation Warbarges that generate clone packs will clone packs be reduced in cost? Clone packs have been largely tied to the value and if biomass is being replaced by this system is seems to make sense that the pack price could be heavily reduced to encourage people to give PC a go while these other changes continue to drop. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
bigolenuts Ancient Exiles. 1368	Posted - 2015.01.22 11:54:00 - [55] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Hi everyone, We are going to try and implement a few tweaks to shake up PC a little bit. An interesting thought was been proposed. After a PC battle, team A gets the ISK equivalent of team B's losses, and vice versa. The same Salvage rules apply as normal. This should mean that corporations could run harassment missions, using only low level gear to bleed the opponent. There would be no winner bonus or loser, as the conflict is initiated by the corps themselves. If the holding corp wants to keep its land, they may use overwhelming force, but lose ISK, and the attacking corporation could decide to switch up their tactic and go full proto if they see the opportunity to win the district. This is an idea, please discuss. There will be more small iteration ideas posted over the next few days. You guys should really leave the bars (not saying drinking is bad) sometimes to brain storm ideas for the game. Just saying. At a minimum, put your ideas on a dart board and throw from your non-dominate hand. Whatever it lands on, is the new update. At least you would have an out when it didn't work. You know why there are no Mexicans on Star Trek? They don't work in the future either.
Leither Yiltron Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1075	Posted - 2015.01.23 05:09:00 - [56] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Hi everyone, We are going to try and implement a few tweaks to shake up PC a little bit. An interesting thought was been proposed. After a PC battle, team A gets the ISK equivalent of team B's losses, and vice versa. The same Salvage rules apply as normal. This should mean that corporations could run harassment missions, using only low level gear to bleed the opponent. There would be no winner bonus or loser, as the conflict is initiated by the corps themselves. If the holding corp wants to keep its land, they may use overwhelming force, but lose ISK, and the attacking corporation could decide to switch up their tactic and go full proto if they see the opportunity to win the district. This is an idea, please discuss. There will be more small iteration ideas posted over the next few days. This idea just doesn't work out. What you're trying to compensate for is the lack of an incentive to fight against a team while yours doesn't have full proto gear. The legitimate way to address this issue is a tiericide sweep that reduces the gulf in utility between the suit tiers, so that a team in advanced gear is actually competitive. The wrong way to approach it is the proposed one. At its core, you are encouraging players to stage matches that are not fun to play. When one team is in ADV, the other in PRO, the ADV team gets stomped. That's not fun. When one team is in MLT, the other in PRO, the MLT gets roflstomped. That's not fun. Ultimately, this is the exact type of change that I cautioned against in the original Roadmap thread. Iterations on the current mechanics without a systematic redesign of most of PC's core subsystems so that the new system actually meshes will not work. If there was really any hope of that kind of "step-by-step" fix, community leaders would have been suggesting it for the past 1.5 years instead of embarking on the back-breaking work of trying to design a new, working system. Long term roadmap by Aeon Amadi Have a pony
Hector Carson G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 159	Posted - 2015.01.23 05:29:00 - [57] - Quote I am all for that Raid idea, it will help smaller corps get strong and new corps grow in numbers PC will become a scared place, but if you think about it your gonna need to open up more planets I propose that a new region should be opened up since the Mercenaries can now take to the skies Assault c.k0 Proto Tankers

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 15519	Posted - 2015.01.23 07:05:00 - [58] - Quote We are closing this thread, as we have resolved the feedback into a Proposal, found here: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=188510&find=unread "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"



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