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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Piraten Hovnoret
No Tax Scrubs
692
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Posted - 2015.01.07 14:27:00 -
[31] - Quote
Kaze Eyrou wrote:pegasis prime wrote:GM Archduke wrote:Any suggestions on how this could be addressed and solved?  If someone finishes a game with 0 kills 0 deaths and 0 wp then give them no sp and no isk simples . So.... play until I die... And then spawn in the MCC with a Swarm Launcher, press fire, press select and troll Alliance chat. Circumvented. Try again. EDIT: I also want to point out that I went 0 kills, 0 deaths, and 0 WP during an entire match EVEN THOUGH I PLAYED THE ENTIRE MATCH. Was using a special hardened Gorgon to absorb enemy fire while placing uplinks in strategic locations. Proto Uplinks 5 while using an Amarr Logistics skill 5 Protosuit made for 3 and 4 second uplinks. Not. A. Single. War Point. Now I'm regretting not taking a picture of that.
Not one spawn ? LOL who are you kidding
Even if this is the case it's not that big of a deal, you lost nothing.
Any system you put in place will have a flaw somewhere however the question is the current flaw worse with ppl sitting in the mcc the hole game or the extremly few times that you just described.
I take the later
War never changes
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Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
5632
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Posted - 2015.01.07 14:36:00 -
[32] - Quote
pegasis prime wrote:GM Archduke wrote:Any suggestions on how this could be addressed and solved? If someone finishes a game with 0 kills 0 deaths and 0 wp then give them no sp and no isk simples .
This is the easiest and most simple solution. Scaled up from there. No sense in giving a guy with 25 WP very much either.
Low payouts ensure that only the best are running decent gear.
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
6240
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Posted - 2015.01.07 14:41:00 -
[33] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:pegasis prime wrote:If someone finishes a game with 0 kills 0 deaths and 0 wp then give them no sp and no isk simples .
This is the easiest and most simple solution. Scaled up from there. No sense in giving a guy with 25 WP very much either. We have a poor enough new player experience, without removing rewards for players fresh out of the academy who can only earn 100 or so WPs per match at first. This is a terrible idea and should never be implemented if CCP ever wants new players to continue to play Dust 514 past their first public contract.
Just call me Ripple. Ripple Riley.
@Ripley_Riley
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
5050
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Posted - 2015.01.07 14:56:00 -
[34] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Thor Odinson42 wrote:pegasis prime wrote:If someone finishes a game with 0 kills 0 deaths and 0 wp then give them no sp and no isk simples .
This is the easiest and most simple solution. Scaled up from there. No sense in giving a guy with 25 WP very much either. We have a poor enough new player experience, without removing rewards for players fresh out of the academy who can only earn 100 or so WPs per match at first. This is a terrible idea and should never be implemented if CCP ever wants new players to continue to play Dust 514 past their first public contract.
This. You're getting bitter, Odinson. Won't someone please think of the children?
However... A pure 0/0/0 I could probably get on board with. Yes, the AFKers who don't care about dying will just suicide once and keep going, but it at least makes them do something other than set up a simple keyboard macro. And any n00b can at least manage to hack an installation or die once.
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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Piraten Hovnoret
No Tax Scrubs
692
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Posted - 2015.01.07 15:02:00 -
[35] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Thor Odinson42 wrote:pegasis prime wrote:If someone finishes a game with 0 kills 0 deaths and 0 wp then give them no sp and no isk simples .
This is the easiest and most simple solution. Scaled up from there. No sense in giving a guy with 25 WP very much either. We have a poor enough new player experience, without removing rewards for players fresh out of the academy who can only earn 100 or so WPs per match at first. This is a terrible idea and should never be implemented if CCP ever wants new players to continue to play Dust 514 past their first public contract.
Dude 0-0-0 is not a new player experience game.
Even when I started out this game ( not a beta vet ) I knew how to make points.
I went like 2-13-100 my first games then after just a day I knew how to wp farm, I have no problem with new players doing just as bad.
But 0-0-0 that's not even trying, new players don't go 0-0-0 that's veterans farming isk nothing more nothing less.
War never changes
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
5050
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Posted - 2015.01.07 15:03:00 -
[36] - Quote
Oh, and the OP mentioned Destiny. There's an obvious incentive to AFK in Dust but I'm having trouble thinking of a scenario in which I would wish to do so in Destiny. Glimmer is nearly worthless compared to how easy it is to get during normal play after about level 10, no completely safe haven in PvP I know of(admittedly I don't do it much), and there's no passive exp, so....?
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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Nonoriri ko
Onikanabo Brigade
Caldari State
31
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Posted - 2015.01.07 15:11:00 -
[37] - Quote
Simple, make a square or rectangle area on each teams side that disables wp gain.
Blue cannot gain wp on blue side, they only gain wp on red side.
Red only gains wp on blue side, not on red side.
Then between these two magical boxes is the center of map where everything goes.
Both teams get wp here.
Some kind of marker would be nice, but not graphical onscreen.
Something like on top right of screen like an OB message.
Like, "No WP gain" flashing top right until you move to an area you can. |
Piraten Hovnoret
No Tax Scrubs
692
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Posted - 2015.01.07 15:11:00 -
[38] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:Oh, and the OP mentioned Destiny. There's an obvious incentive to AFK in Dust but I'm having trouble thinking of a scenario in which I would wish to do so in Destiny. Glimmer is nearly useless compared to how easy it is to get, no completely safe haven in PvP I know of(admittedly I don't do it much), and there's no passive exp, so....?
Told you destiny sux. However if you ruberband the controler ( in the raid mode ) you get kicked ( orbit )
We have tryed it, it's like you say hard to find a point to ruberband in that game however the feature is there never the less.
Oh found it out when we knocked Athion of with nades ( 2 guys nades rest jumped to the death )
When you ruberbanded the controler the game returned you to orbit.
Again destiny is crap
War never changes
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
14284
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Posted - 2015.01.07 15:14:00 -
[39] - Quote
there must be a good formula in the vein of
(isk killed + abs(isk lost)) times pool available times wp/total team wp times win bonus multiplier
that would make you less scared of earning more WP through losses
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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DAMIOS82
WarRavens
Capital Punishment.
148
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Posted - 2015.01.07 15:16:00 -
[40] - Quote
I believe the best way to handle farmers is a FieldCommander, Instead of just only having squad commanders, you basicly get a one ring to rule them all type of character. This commander gets extra abbilty's to effect the war. So while everybody can call in an OB, the FC can also call in other types like carpet bombing, etc, Turrets, depots, etc. But in the case of Farming they also get an option to remove them. So first the FC select the character and presses the button/option and a warning is send to the farmer, then a countdown is started. 60 sec. After those 60 sec, the FC presses the option again, countdown starts again 60 sec. Then the FC gets an option Force removall and the farmer is removed. Or one could do a 1 time 2 min countdown, same system.
Now to make sure there is no abuse of the system. The squad commanders need to vote on it, To give the FC that power. Just a simple button/option, majority rules. So if there are 6 squads, you need a minimum of 3 votes. If there is only 1 squad and the rest is playing solo, then the FC needs only that 1 vote. This way the Farmer has 2 min to start playing when caught, then the FC can remove them. Now offcourse one could say ok what's to stop the removall when a farmer has started playing, well they get a counter action, during those 120 sec, Which forces the hole process to start over. One could also add additional warning signs on screen to alert the players to the actions beeing taken.
This way it's fair for all and hard to abuse. farmers that don't pay attention are removed from the game without pay. But it also leaves enough time for someone to respond, who just went for a bathroom break, or snacks, etc.
Not to mention having a FC on the field leaves enough room for many more fun stuff to be added into the game and anybody get take it's position. |
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
6243
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Posted - 2015.01.07 15:19:00 -
[41] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:(isk killed + abs(isk lost)) times pool available times wp/total team wp times win bonus multiplier What is 'abs' in this formula?
CCP Rattati wrote:that would make you less scared of earning more WP through losses Pardon? Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but I am having trouble understanding what you mean by this.
Just call me Ripple. Ripple Riley.
@Ripley_Riley
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
9142
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Posted - 2015.01.07 15:22:00 -
[42] - Quote
Ahh FC roles, if only people played this game like a team based game and not like Call of Duty or King of the Hill.
That's why I strongly prefer PC and FW, pubbers are just too unorganized.
CCP holds the Caldari's hand so this doesn't happen again.
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Piraten Hovnoret
No Tax Scrubs
693
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Posted - 2015.01.07 15:31:00 -
[43] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:there must be a good formula in the vein of
(isk killed + abs(isk lost)) times pool available times wp/total team wp times win bonus multiplier
that would make you less scared of earning more WP through losses
There is some good suggestions in the forums and in this thread.
I don't know your game programming, but I belive a realy low wp cap to get payed is the most simple way ( and resorse friendly ) to resolve the issue.
If you don't make let's say 100wp then no payout.
I can't in my wildest dreams belive that a new player joins this game to sit in the mcc.
It's veterans that do this.
Best regards
War never changes
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
14289
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Posted - 2015.01.07 15:49:00 -
[44] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:(isk killed + abs(isk lost)) times pool available times wp/total team wp times win bonus multiplier What is 'abs' in this formula? CCP Rattati wrote:that would make you less scared of earning more WP through losses Pardon? Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but I am having trouble understanding what you mean by this.
abs means negative is turned to positive.
what I mean is that even if I go proto and lose a shitload of isk, if it makes my team win and I earn a lot of wp, I will still get a lot of isk back, instead of the 2-300k i get now. SirManBoy on the CPM is my counterpart in this "Win by any means necessary" initiative
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
5055
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Posted - 2015.01.07 15:50:00 -
[45] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:there must be a good formula in the vein of
(isk killed + abs(isk lost)) times pool available times wp/total team wp times win bonus multiplier
that would make you less scared of earning more WP through losses
This type of approach would obviously be the best solution if done properly. The carrot is a better option than the stick in a game you want people to enjoy playing. Better, and more importantly, better scaling of rewards would get rid of the incentive to AFK in the first place.
More importantly though, it could simultaneously make battles more competitive as people who aren't PC-rich
have no other choice but to be risk-averse in a lot of situations. Back when I did a lot of pubs and ended up on the wrong side of the usual "me and a bunch of randos vs 2 squads of elite corp x" scenario, I am absolutely not ashamed of the fact that I would not uncommonly pack it in halfway through the match and start sniping the protos because it would frankly have been stupid not to considering how poor I was at the time. I'm not going broke getting spawnkilled while trying to prop up some team of idiots.
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
6243
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Posted - 2015.01.07 15:53:00 -
[46] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:what I mean is that even if I go proto and lose a shitload of isk, if it makes my team win and I earn a lot of wp, I will still get a lot of isk back, instead of the 2-300k i get now. SirManBoy on the CPM is my counterpart in this "Win by any means necessary" initiative Won't this basically cause someone to run proto every. single. match. since they will recoup their losses by running proto?
This feels like a "run proto or you aren't in any way competitive" initiative.
Just call me Ripple. Ripple Riley.
@Ripley_Riley
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ishtellian
SAM-MIK
General Tso's Alliance
86
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Posted - 2015.01.07 15:56:00 -
[47] - Quote
Gotta be careful with how we combat this, not every game but every once in a while I go to the red line to change a vehicle fit or go to the market ( you need to be spawned to change vehicle fits for some reason )
I don't usually take more than a minute but if the timer is a minute i'd be screwed.
Like others have said, vote kicking can easily be abused.
Killing them really wont solve anything, there suits aren't worth isk so there not losing anything but KDR which i don't even really care about.
I think it would need to be more complicated detection system, i admit ive sorta afkd before but really all it was is i start a game and just sorta shoot my gun, reload, throw a grenade or jump around every minute or so. Its not true afk but it has the same effect so the system would need to be smart.
It cant be based off of WP or KDR imo because sometimes i get thrown into a game half way in were my team is getting destroyed and so am I and i cant really do much, this even happens some full games. ( I guess im just a trash player  )
Maybe have it based on more accurately what your doing, lets say you need to generate X amount of action points which is just like a invisible system, you would need to say earn `1000 before the end of the 4 minute mark, you can only earn X amount from walking/running, X amount from shooting etc etc
Maybe something like this and it checks every few minutes for a reasonable mixture of all actions, if you start to come short you get a timer and an idea of what you can do to get points.
Its hard to have a perfect system in a game such as Dust, maybe at the end of the mach give no rewards as a base, and your rewards are determined by your actions, and as you do more you get multipliers to increase how much you get, say at 200 WP you get 50k isk and WP's after that have a 1.2x multiplier up to maybe a x2.5 multiplier or somethings, this could also be a way to increase isk from public contracts.
My Heavy Never Dies.
Logibro In training.
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Bright Cloud
Namtar Elite
Gallente Federation
747
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Posted - 2015.01.07 15:59:00 -
[48] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:there must be a good formula in the vein of
(isk killed + abs(isk lost)) times pool available times wp/total team wp times win bonus multiplier
that would make you less scared of earning more WP through losses
The AFK farming works like this:
-get a rapid fire modded controller
-assign the rapid fire function to triangle (crouching+respawning)
-put ducktape on the triangle button but before that join ambush
People make alts with just this purpose in mind. They dont care about K/D or W/L on their stats cause at the end of the day that ISK will be send to the main char which got passive SP assigned. People do it as a passive activity cause it requires 0 player input. You could say this is similar like mining on eve with a bot. Look at the screen every now and then and return watching TV instead. All that while your ISK goes up.
Bright is the opposite of dark! Who would have thought of that?!
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Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
5632
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Posted - 2015.01.07 16:01:00 -
[49] - Quote
Sgt Kirk wrote:Ahh FC roles, if only people played this game like a team based game and not like Call of Duty or King of the Hill.
That's why I strongly prefer PC and FW, pubbers are just too unorganized.
People don't play it that way because the game itself doesn't reward it. It took a long time, but the rewards have slowly eroded the desire for people to: 1) Be in a corp and pay tax, 2) squad up, 3) try or care about winning. If you couple that with the extremely powerful scouts for however long from 1.8 to 1.10 that rewarded solo gameplay and you have a situation where matches are overwhelmingly made up of solo players.
Low payouts ensure that only the best are running decent gear.
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
14290
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Posted - 2015.01.07 16:01:00 -
[50] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:what I mean is that even if I go proto and lose a shitload of isk, if it makes my team win and I earn a lot of wp, I will still get a lot of isk back, instead of the 2-300k i get now. SirManBoy on the CPM is my counterpart in this "Win by any means necessary" initiative Won't this basically cause someone to run proto every. single. match. since they will recoup their losses by running proto? This feels like a "run proto or you aren't in any way competitive" initiative.
trick is to figure out a better way, but you have to explain why proto running equals win in this case.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
6243
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Posted - 2015.01.07 16:06:00 -
[51] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Trick is to figure out a better way, but you have to explain why proto running equals win in this case. Proto doesn't necessarily mean a win, but because winning ensures you get your ISK back why would you run anything less than proto gear?
I'm just afraid that removing the cost of proto gear for winners will mean anyone who can't fit proto gear will be viewed as an idiot.
Just call me Ripple. Ripple Riley.
@Ripley_Riley
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five times
Liverpool F.C.
56
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Posted - 2015.01.07 16:06:00 -
[52] - Quote
You have already got daily mission reward for distance covered, so using that's how about if you have 0 deaths and 0 kills and 0 distance covered you penalised.
This protects those who die from spawn campers. |
John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
5056
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Posted - 2015.01.07 16:07:00 -
[53] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:what I mean is that even if I go proto and lose a shitload of isk, if it makes my team win and I earn a lot of wp, I will still get a lot of isk back, instead of the 2-300k i get now. SirManBoy on the CPM is my counterpart in this "Win by any means necessary" initiative Won't this basically cause someone to run proto every. single. match. since they will recoup their losses by running proto? This feels like a "run proto or you aren't in any way competitive" initiative.
Not necessarily, because there would (I assume) still be a limit to the amount of ISK to give out. Also, since it would be tied to ISK destroyed, if you're just stomping starter fits there won't be much in that pool. I suppose it should be weighted more towards ISK destroyed, maybe put a multiplier of 0.75 or whatever on the ISK lost variable.
Actually, now that I think about it, what would probably work out better is just to put a cap on how high the (ISK lost) value can be in the equation. I couldn't even venture a guess as to what the value should be. Whatever it is, though, by setting a limit you would keep the risk of running very expensive gear intact as after a certain point you won't be increasing the potential reward. On the other hand, players using cheap gear could then still not worry as much about getting killed because they would still be rewarded more for trying to win.
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
6244
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Posted - 2015.01.07 16:13:00 -
[54] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:Not necessarily, because there would (I assume) still be a limit to the amount of ISK to give out. Also, since it would be tied to ISK destroyed, if you're just stomping starter fits there won't be much in that pool. I suppose it should be weighted more towards ISK destroyed, maybe put a multiplier of 0.75 or whatever on the ISK lost variable. I like the idea of the (ISK lost) being reduced in value. 0.75 is fair, but 0.6 feels more appropriate.
Just call me Ripple. Ripple Riley.
@Ripley_Riley
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Ryme Intrinseca
Dead Man's Game
RUST415
2216
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Posted - 2015.01.07 16:17:00 -
[55] - Quote
By this stage we have to assume AFK is a design decision. Just one of many reasons im standing in a queue to trade in my ps3 right now... |
Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
5632
|
Posted - 2015.01.07 16:19:00 -
[56] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Ripley Riley wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:what I mean is that even if I go proto and lose a shitload of isk, if it makes my team win and I earn a lot of wp, I will still get a lot of isk back, instead of the 2-300k i get now. SirManBoy on the CPM is my counterpart in this "Win by any means necessary" initiative Won't this basically cause someone to run proto every. single. match. since they will recoup their losses by running proto? This feels like a "run proto or you aren't in any way competitive" initiative. trick is to figure out a better way, but you have to explain why proto running equals win in this case.
I don't believe that it does. I know I find myself switching to proto after it's clear that there are many on my team outside of my squad that aren't contributing much.
I don't start out in proto, but I like to win. If that means dumping some ISK on a match to have fun in my Dust session, so be it.
I think the MU system many times puts a veteran squad with quite a few "low MU" players. There are many times that it feels like it's 16 vs 6.
Low payouts ensure that only the best are running decent gear.
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
5057
|
Posted - 2015.01.07 16:19:00 -
[57] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:John Demonsbane wrote:Not necessarily, because there would (I assume) still be a limit to the amount of ISK to give out. Also, since it would be tied to ISK destroyed, if you're just stomping starter fits there won't be much in that pool. I suppose it should be weighted more towards ISK destroyed, maybe put a multiplier of 0.75 or whatever on the ISK lost variable. I like the idea of the (ISK lost) being reduced in value. 0.75 is fair, but 0.6 feels more appropriate.
Go for it.
Number: 0.75
Source: My hindquarters.
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
5632
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Posted - 2015.01.07 16:26:00 -
[58] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:John Demonsbane wrote:Not necessarily, because there would (I assume) still be a limit to the amount of ISK to give out. Also, since it would be tied to ISK destroyed, if you're just stomping starter fits there won't be much in that pool. I suppose it should be weighted more towards ISK destroyed, maybe put a multiplier of 0.75 or whatever on the ISK lost variable. I like the idea of the (ISK lost) being reduced in value. 0.75 is fair, but 0.6 feels more appropriate.
I don't like it being weighted in that direction because it would seem to me that it would only exacerbate the problem of people fighting in cheap gear all the time. In other words I think many players would use cheap suits to intentionally keep the ISK pool low.
I don't want to see 100% proto on the field, but it's not currently feasible for many people to profit in a domination or a skirmish using ADV suits. I recently fitted up a ADV Cal Assault with all ADV modules and it still came to a 40K ISK suit. You lose 6 suits and you've lost ISK in most cases.
It's not a popular viewpoint for whatever reason, but I believe that the issue in pubs is that so few are willing to use better gear. If they see FA or Red Star or whomever on the other side they automatically say "BPO fits" instead of stepping up the gear to combat the higher skilled players with ADV or better gear. If the answer to combating higher skilled players in higher level gear remains "run your cheap suits", then the cycle just continues.
Low payouts ensure that only the best are running decent gear.
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Raptor Princess
ALLOTEC INC
113
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Posted - 2015.01.07 16:26:00 -
[59] - Quote
I would be very much opposed to any kind of voting system for kicking a player - I've stopped being a sniper in FW most of the time because people on my own team come up behind me and kill me (and sometimes then message me complaining about me sniping). In pubs, the worst I put up with is someone coming up and standing in front of me or meleeing the back of my head til I move.
If people could kick team mates, I'd be worried it could be abused to kick players people don't want on their side, rather than only players who are AFK. |
Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
5632
|
Posted - 2015.01.07 16:32:00 -
[60] - Quote
Raptor Princess wrote:I would be very much opposed to any kind of voting system for kicking a player - I've stopped being a sniper in FW most of the time because people on my own team come up behind me and kill me (and sometimes then message me complaining about me sniping). In pubs, the worst I put up with is someone coming up and standing in front of me or meleeing the back of my head til I move.
If people could kick team mates, I'd be worried it could be abused to kick players people don't want on their side, rather than only players who are AFK.
I think this is a bad idea as well.
I'm not a fan of snipers at all, 99% of them could be considered AFK by most definitions, but that's an issue for another thread.
Low payouts ensure that only the best are running decent gear.
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