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[Ideas] Salvage-Based Economic Stimulus = More ISK, Better Gameplay

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SirManBoy Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 690	Posted - 2014.12.11 05:07:00 - [1] - Quote Hello Dust Community, SirManBoy here sharing an idea that I hope many of you will like and support. Like you, I am frustrated by the meager levels of compensation received in pub matches and the risk averse play style that it engenders among our player base. Additionally, I am also disappointed by the current state of salvage drops, which greatly inhibits the wonderful potential of our new sell back feature and devalues the selling agent that was developed to enhance our sell back returns, Jara Kumora. I believe that the proposal outlined in the following link addresses all of these problems simultaneously. Please give the file a look and return to this thread with your questions and comments. Thanks, SirManBoy Excel File: Salvage-Based Economic Stimulus An excerpt from a conversation I had which offers an example of how this system would work: Quote: In the last match that I just played my team got stomped and it was a financial disaster for me despite going 22-13 with 1,730 WP, first place in both kills and WP on my team. I earned just 287,697 ISK but probably lost something closer to 800,000 ISK. There's no way for me to know for sure, but let's make a conservative assumption and say that the 22 mercs I killed had fits that average out to 50,000 ISK each. Under this proposal, that means I would have come away with the following compensation: Standard payout: 287,697 ISK Salvage payout: 22 fits * 50K = 1,100,000 ISK @ .41 (L10 w/agent) = 451,000 ISK New total payout for match: 738,697 ISK After liquidating my salvage you can see that I still wouldn't have made a profit, but I was really, really close. So close that it encourages me to keep fighting even when the chips are down. Now imagine if an entire team could see that kind of silver lining; they might keep fighting hard for the entire duration of the match, making it much more fun and interesting for everyone involved.
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1377	Posted - 2014.12.11 05:25:00 - [2] - Quote SMB, I like the idea generally, however, this is clearly an area where we could actually use some economic stats from CCP. With the advent of the APEX BPO and BPO return in general this has adjusted things quiet a bit in meaning and value of ISK. Taken with the desire to reinvigorate Planetary Conquest as stated by CCP Rattati I'm having large questions about ISK in the game. I would be curious to know some of the following stats to start off with: 1) average monthly ISK in active player wallets 2) stats on ISK loss by game mode 3) average KDR and ISK / LP / AUR cost of each suit. Again...I like the concept and agree that it's probably needed to turn the dial a bit...i just don't know what the "setting" is now in order to guess how much we need to turn the dial and in what direction. Great topic! "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
SirManBoy Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 691	Posted - 2014.12.11 05:36:00 - [3] - Quote You're absolutely right, Jay--a bit of data would certainly add value to this discussion. Thanks for the comment.
Isa Lucifer Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 124	Posted - 2014.12.11 06:23:00 - [4] - Quote SirManBoy I am hesitant to put my email adress in the website. Can you just simple create a Google document and share it? I await your response. If its no, just because you are CPM, I trust you and thus will do it, but I would prefer infinitly more Google Docs. Amarr Victor
SirManBoy Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 692	Posted - 2014.12.11 06:39:00 - [5] - Quote Isa Lucifer wrote: SirManBoy I am hesitant to put my email adress in the website. Can you just simple create a Google document and share it? I await your response. If its no, just because you are CPM, I trust you and thus will do it, but I would prefer infinitly more Google Docs. Fixed! Thank you for the suggestion. Please open the file in Microsoft Excel; it doesn't seem to present well within Google docs itself.
JONAHBENHUR WarRavens Capital Punishment. 59	Posted - 2014.12.11 08:23:00 - [6] - Quote an increase pay out would be nice, since the need for isk is greatly different than a new player and a vet typical vet suit is 50k while a new players suit is 1,000. also an increased pay out would encourage people to try so sick of people losing 1-2 suits and giveing up. It is a team game and there are 15 others in the match counting on you to atleast try "To be a man you must have honor, "HONOR AND A PENIS !!" -shinoske noharu
Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3315	Posted - 2014.12.11 09:15:00 - [7] - Quote Increase ISK payout from public contracts. Change reward in PC to something else, officer gear perhaps? EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet". My PS3: http://imgur.com/a/5O8ok
Vicious Minotaur 1451	Posted - 2014.12.11 10:12:00 - [8] - Quote I like the idea, though part of me would like the salvaging taking place under the proposal to somehow have a skill associated with it. For instance [albeit, a hastily thought up one]: SKILL: Salvaging * Lvl1 - allows for salvaging modules [all per-kill based] * Lvl2 - allows for salvaging sidearms ---blah blah blah * Lvl5 - allows for salvaging equipment/whatever Although, such a thing could unnecessarily give experienced players another leg up on new players. But again, hasty idea, not fleshed out, etc. etc... Another thing: In the idea, salvage gathering is passive. All you have to do is kill to get it. While not necessarily a bad thing, it would be, at least for me, far more interesting to make salvaging stuff from your fallen foes include a more active element (i.e.: hacking the corpse; using a new salvaging equipment thing on the corpse; whatever). Again, such a thing would best have a skill element included as well. Of course, more work on CCPs end. Anyway, I like the core idea and making the "salvage selling"-feature more important. I am a minotaur. a+üa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa+üa¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça+üa+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+üa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa+üa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ë
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5431	Posted - 2014.12.11 19:49:00 - [9] - Quote I like the idea a lot. It gives the market chick some actual value. It also adds to the possibilities when player trading becomes available (hopefully in February), i.e. more salvage, more stuff to do for some person who likes this sort of thing more than actually shooting at stuff. Anything to boost earning potential for players laying it out to win matches. I wish my avatar was Minmatar.
Hawkin P Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 525	Posted - 2014.12.11 21:39:00 - [10] - Quote More ISK for PC though salvage is a great idea. Anything that makes PC profitable again, and increases people interest in it, is cool.

Thokk Nightshade Montana Militia 740	Posted - 2014.12.12 03:34:00 - [11] - Quote I agree with you on the overall premise that Pub payouts are too low. I'm just going to throw this out there since there is a CPM running the talks. I posted this on a couple other threads and the overall feedback was pretty positive. Let me know what you think SirManBoy: Here is something I've been kicking around for a while. Set it so each "position" on the end of match killboard has a set ISK amount. Then use a multiplier with WP to come to a total figure. The highest 4 members of the team are (likely)pretty equal contributors so they deserve the same baseline payout. The next 4 contributed but not to the same level of the top 4. From there down, it digresses quickly to the last place player. 1st place. 120 k 2. 120 k 3. 120 k 4. 120 k 5. 100 k 6. 100 k 7. 100 k 8. 100 k 9. 90 k 10: 90 k 11: 80 k 12: 70 k 13: 60 k 14: 50 k 15: 40 k 16: 25 k Then take the individual's WP's and multiply them by "x" and then multiply that with the total payout. For example, for an Ambush match, I'll use .0025. I am on top of the board after the match and I get 1500 WP. We take 1500 WP X .0025 = 3.75. 3.75 X my first place baseline payout of 120k = 450000 2nd player gets 1100 WP. 1100x.0025 is 2.75 X 100k = 330000 6th player for example makes 740 WP 1100 x .0025 is 1.85 x 100k = 185,000 Just to look at it, 9th place player gets 400 WP. 400 x .0025. He is making 90k. Anyone who has less than 400 WP would go into the negative, so their payout would be less than their basepay. So we set it so basepay is the MINIMUM anyone will be paid. If the top player goes apeshit and puts up 4000 WP or more, that is where we have some issues that need to be worked out. We have 4000 x .0025 for 10 X 120k is 1.2 Million ISK. However, we are not seeing 4000 WP put up in Ambush (Normally). So what I would do is adjust the multiplier on the type of match. Ambush are the quickest so they will not have as high WP totals as a Dom or skirmish. So for Dom and Skirm, we change the multiplier to say .0015. 4000 WP * .0015 is 6 x 120k is a 720,000 ISK payout. Right in what I believe is a sweet spot. Not too ridiculous but enough to make it worth the person's while. Those matches where you have one person putting up 6000 WP is cracking a million at 1,080,000 People who are AFK'ing are going to be sitting there making a total of 25k ISK (not worth it) and those trying to help the team will be rewarded. Even in the stomp-matches, those who have the most WP overall will be rewarded for the effort. These #'s are just theoretical and could be moved/adjusted. Honestly, if we wanted to just set the baseline at 100K for all slots I would be fine with it. I just feel like 100k is enough of an incentive to make AFK'ing worth their while. Any thoughts/comments? Thokk Kill. Thokk Crush. Thokk Smash.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 15788	Posted - 2014.12.12 03:35:00 - [12] - Quote I genuinely don't get it...... you have to spend AUR to get the same pay out as a player who already has? *"He spoke, and we made it so all worlds were one, all peoples were one, all faiths, creeds, and nationalities were one.
SirManBoy Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 703	Posted - 2014.12.12 05:05:00 - [13] - Quote Thokk Nightshade wrote: I agree with you on the overall premise that Pub payouts are too low. I'm just going to throw this out there since there is a CPM running the talks. I posted this on a couple other threads and the overall feedback was pretty positive. Let me know what you think SirManBoy: Here is something I've been kicking around for a while. Set it so each "position" on the end of match killboard has a set ISK amount. Then use a multiplier with WP to come to a total figure. The highest 4 members of the team are (likely)pretty equal contributors so they deserve the same baseline payout. The next 4 contributed but not to the same level of the top 4. From there down, it digresses quickly to the last place player. 1st place. 120 k 2. 120 k 3. 120 k 4. 120 k 5. 100 k 6. 100 k 7. 100 k 8. 100 k 9. 90 k 10: 90 k 11: 80 k 12: 70 k 13: 60 k 14: 50 k 15: 40 k 16: 25 k Then take the individual's WP's and multiply them by "x" and then multiply that with the total payout. For example, for an Ambush match, I'll use .0025. I am on top of the board after the match and I get 1500 WP. We take 1500 WP X .0025 = 3.75. 3.75 X my first place baseline payout of 120k = 450000 2nd player gets 1100 WP. 1100x.0025 is 2.75 X 100k = 330000 6th player for example makes 740 WP 1100 x .0025 is 1.85 x 100k = 185,000 Just to look at it, 9th place player gets 400 WP. 400 x .0025. He is making 90k. Anyone who has less than 400 WP would go into the negative, so their payout would be less than their basepay. So we set it so basepay is the MINIMUM anyone will be paid. If the top player goes apeshit and puts up 4000 WP or more, that is where we have some issues that need to be worked out. We have 4000 x .0025 for 10 X 120k is 1.2 Million ISK. However, we are not seeing 4000 WP put up in Ambush (Normally). So what I would do is adjust the multiplier on the type of match. Ambush are the quickest so they will not have as high WP totals as a Dom or skirmish. So for Dom and Skirm, we change the multiplier to say .0015. 4000 WP * .0015 is 6 x 120k is a 720,000 ISK payout. Right in what I believe is a sweet spot. Not too ridiculous but enough to make it worth the person's while. Those matches where you have one person putting up 6000 WP is cracking a million at 1,080,000 People who are AFK'ing are going to be sitting there making a total of 25k ISK (not worth it) and those trying to help the team will be rewarded. Even in the stomp-matches, those who have the most WP overall will be rewarded for the effort. These #'s are just theoretical and could be moved/adjusted. Honestly, if we wanted to just set the baseline at 100K for all slots I would be fine with it. I just feel like 100k is enough of an incentive to make AFK'ing worth their while. Any thoughts/comments? I think we want the same ends, but we're prescribing two very different means to reach them. I want a system that forces direct conflict and that supplements our preexisting payouts with assets that can be liquidated through our sell back feature, with additional value being realized by those who invested in the selling agent. Personally, I think it would be incredibly satisfying to have a boat load of salvage fall into my lap each match, especially when that salvage is exactly what my victims were wearing when I killed them. For me, there is something far more intriguing and stimulating about that methodology than just having more ISK directly handed to me. Don't get me wrong; what you're describing is still quite good. I just have a different vision in mind. If what you're advocating were to be followed, it too would address the problem of how low compensation results in a timid, risk averse player base. Thanks for the post, Thokk.
SirManBoy Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 703	Posted - 2014.12.12 05:09:00 - [14] - Quote True Adamance wrote: I genuinely don't get it...... you have to spend AUR to get the same pay out as a player who already has? I don't follow. I'm saying you would get a normal pay out and a massive amount of salvage on top of that. The liquidated value of that salvage would then be based on your loyalty ranking and whether or not you purchased the selling agent, which is exactly how it works now.
Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3358	Posted - 2014.12.12 12:35:00 - [15] - Quote Honestly, I think you should get the ISK destroyed in match back. Reason: This motivates bumrushing/suicide ganking proto users. EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet". My PS3: http://imgur.com/a/5O8ok
SirManBoy Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 707	Posted - 2014.12.12 15:49:00 - [16] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: Honestly, I think you should get the ISK destroyed in match back. Reason: This motivates bumrushing/suicide ganking proto users. My proposal is essentially your idea with slightly more reasonable returns because salvage liquidation is capped at 50%. Moreover, it motivates players to purchase the selling agent and to actively improve their loyalty ranking for better ISK returns on their salvage.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2002	Posted - 2014.12.12 19:12:00 - [17] - Quote Please take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt as I haven't had the chance to look at your spreadsheet yet. I really like this idea SMB but I think the goal should be to make it so a player has the potential to turn a profit through salvage without having an agent. The agent should make it easier but not be a requirement to profitability. This would not remove the incentive to buy the agent, infact it might further incentivize the agent since good players will be much more profitable with one. Data from CCP would really help us think this through in more detail as others have pointed out. We need to know what most people are loosing isk wise in a given battle in order to set a salvage drop rate that makes that breaking even attainable for the average merc. I like the idea of tying salvage drop rate to player participation in some way. Are you proposing that it be tied to kills? Wouldn't that leave logistics players out of the proposed salvage mechanics? How could this system be built to support actual contributions so it wouldn't reward people who cue sync with buddies, hide in a corner and damage then rep eachother? Now with more evil.
Thokk Nightshade Montana Militia 743	Posted - 2014.12.13 04:57:00 - [18] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: I think we want the same ends, but we're prescribing two very different means to reach them. I want a system that forces direct conflict and that supplements our preexisting payouts with assets that can be liquidated through our sell back feature, with additional value being realized by those who invested in the selling agent. Personally, I think it would be incredibly satisfying to have a boat load of salvage fall into my lap each match, especially when that salvage is exactly what my victims were wearing when I killed them. For me, there is something far more intriguing and stimulating about that methodology than just having more ISK directly handed to me. Don't get me wrong; what you're describing is still quite good. I just have a different vision in mind. If what you're advocating were to be followed, it too would address the problem of how low compensation results in a timid, risk averse player base. Thanks for the post, Thokk. No, no offense taken. I like your idea as well. Maybe supplement the two/blend them together. A little more money AND good salvage stuff. Thokk Kill. Thokk Crush. Thokk Smash.
501st Headstrong Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 774	Posted - 2014.12.13 07:26:00 - [19] - Quote I feel the Logis should take on your post Thokk. Kills gain salvage, however warpoints generate Isk. Back in the 1.9 update, it was super profitable for Logis who were getting 4500 warpoints in an Ambush, whereas I ran this with a corpmate, and he only made 600k after losing 4 proto min logis. He went negative in isk...but had 4500 warpoints in an Ambush. Under SMB's system, the slayers kill suits, gain the salvage. However, warpoints added to the mix also generate money. Reason being according to this scenario that we ALL have experienced: You are throwing Viziam Flux uplinks behind a dark corner, breathing hard and cloaking up. You sprint, but you know it isn't fast enough, for scouts and the whole enemy team are tracking you. You yearn for blueberries to spawn in, even as a distraction, but hell, Dust 514 has no blueberries lol. You turn a corner, and see a whole squad cut you off. This happens over and over, death after death as blueberries spawn in and get slaughtered. You wrap up points, kill wave after wave with your guns till you run out of bullets and melee until you die, only to find no blueberries out of the redline. You use up 2 million Isk trying to win a match, top of your team, 30 kills, 5000 warpoints- 300k isk. In fury, you shut off your PS3. Under the new proposal: Salvage gained directly from kills would make the game instantly richer. See an enemy using a Balac? Target him. You suicided for a Thales? Now it's yours, and you get to sell it. Or when Player Trading comes out- Pawn it off. The warpoint payout just makes Logis able to sustain their jobs, because we all know losing a 250k suit hurts our hearts like nothing else, even if you have isk to burn. This could also tie in Daily Missions and hunting down particular suits with certain weapons, etc. Hell, have it where killing X amount of suits and using X amount of isk allow you to craft a key? These ideas are were also plotted due to the topics on the Roadmap, which highlight Player Trading and Simple Crafting. 07, thank you for your time Ace Boone's Son/ Danizzle's Friend/ OG GAM4LIfe "Are you a boy or girl?" -Most asked question in Dust Waiting for SWBF
Silver Strike44 268	Posted - 2014.12.13 07:48:00 - [20] - Quote Here are a few things I would like to point out. As it stands now, selling your assets is a long and tedious process. Either increased loading times when selling assets or some way to sell many items at once would be needed. Second, I believe somewhere in your proposal you mentioned the items on players' suits being awarded to the person who terminates their clone. Correct me if I am wrong on that. If that were to be the case then logis would definitely be getting the short end of the stick as they generally arent the once at shooting at people, let alone terminating their clone. Additionally, explosives and other weapons that terminate clones more easily would gain an advantage in this system. Whether that is bad or not is up for debate. Also, it would most likely be a common occurrence seeing someone stealing a clone termination. It is now even possible to terminate friendly clones, if I remember correctly, which lead to a whole other issue consisting of players terminating friendly clones as to preventing enemies from getting their gear or maybe even getting the gear for themselves. What if you terminate your own clone by respawning? (I would assume that would go to the person who killed you.) What if you terminate your own clone with a grenade that you threw before being killed? On the topic of actively looting corpses, I would have to say that would be a very bad idea. Not only would there be a large amount of loot stealing, but faster suits would innately have an advantage in this sort of looting and people would go out of their way for loot rather than play the objective which would be extremely irritating for others on the team of people doing so. Sirmanboy, Please read through this post and provide whatever answers and feedback you can. www.nickmunsonisjesus.com

SirManBoy Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 719	Posted - 2014.12.13 08:47:00 - [21] - Quote Hey guys. Thanks for your interest in the thread and your feedback. It's a bit late right now for me to really dive in, but I'll definitely come back to this thread tomorrow and address a few comments, questions, and concerns. What I will say just briefly, however, is that I am a logi--always have been, always will be. Support has always been my main focus, but I have never let my role keep me from getting my fair share of kills, both with my gun and via orbital strikes as a squad leader. My own experience aside, I realize that many logis have adopted play styles that produce very few kills, and therefore people have expressed concerns about how a system like the one I am proposing may overlook the special contributions that support logis make on the battlefield. The logi class has been hurt by risk averse play as badly as any class in this game, perhaps even hurt the worst of all. If players don't push and fight, then support play is quite bland and unprofitable because logis can't earn big WP returns. Several builds ago, especially before cloaked scouts hit the scene, I was consistently having insane WP games and making a ton of ISK in the process. I believe that hunting for huge salvage returns would once again motivate players to fight hard and take more risks, which would provide logis with an incredible opportunity to provide a level of support that would once again produce consistently high WP returns, thus giving logis higher payouts and excellent SP gains. A system like the one I am proposing also gives logis a chance to develop into better combat players who are capable of doing a bit more with their guns because they too would see the benefits of killing their enemies for the salvage gains. Also, don't underestimate the potential for logis to demand tips from highly profitable slayers who appreciate their contributions and skill set, and therefore wish to enthusiastically patronize their support work.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5474	Posted - 2014.12.16 06:37:00 - [22] - Quote Bump Only4-5KDRpubbiesCanRunADV24/7\|PCplyrsRunPRO&smashSTD/MLTplyrs24/7. ThisIsHowIt'sAlwaysBeen,ThereforeMustStayThisWay.
iKILLu osborne Titans of Phoenix 531	Posted - 2014.12.16 08:47:00 - [23] - Quote for pc considering it has a winner takes all mentality, why not add a "keep what you kill" system in addition to your proposed changes to pubs, it would make pc tremendously profitable and it would help jara sales ;) if you shoot me from the redline i will ensure your death will be a swift one
Kain Spero Goonfeet 3970	Posted - 2014.12.16 11:09:00 - [24] - Quote iKILLu osborne wrote: for pc considering it has a winner takes all mentality, why not add a "keep what you kill" system in addition to your proposed changes to pubs, it would make pc tremendously profitable and it would help jara sales ;) Winner takes all actually works terribly for PC. Keeping what you kill allows a force to be rewarded for fighting a more superiorly equipped foe and brings ISK efficiency into the equation in a big way. You want people to be inspired to actually duke it out and be willing to face off against even tough opponents. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Mister Goo Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 108	Posted - 2014.12.16 14:16:00 - [25] - Quote [quote=SirManBoy Also, don't underestimate the potential for logis to demand tips from highly profitable slayers who appreciate their contributions and skill set, and therefore wish to enthusiastically patronize their support work. [/quote] Playing in a squad this request would be heard and you would be tipped by your squad mates. Everyone else would not respond to your requests except with an HTFU. You need to build in a more reliable system for support characters to receive ISK. Your Idea is good and could work. It needs to be equally lucrative for all team members, including the support ones. Leaving the Logi's to beg for reimbursement is not a solution for everyone, its only for the slayer class. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
pagl1u M Dead Man's Game RUST415 1115	Posted - 2014.12.16 16:14:00 - [26] - Quote I love the idea, good job! I only have one question? What if I kill a player in an APEX suit or in a bpo suit? Will I earn nothing from them? If the answer is "yes" I strongly disagree with it. I know it is easier to kill these free suits but it's not like I'm doing nothing. One of the few assaults you'll find in a PC match!
pagl1u M Dead Man's Game RUST415 1119	Posted - 2014.12.17 14:12:00 - [27] - Quote Bump One of the few assaults you'll find in a PC match!
Binx Klepto Molon Labe. 5	Posted - 2014.12.17 14:44:00 - [28] - Quote pagl1u M wrote: Bump Ha ha this isn't 4 chan dude. But I will agree that this topic needs to be enrolled for the next update. rewarding players for doing better in public matches makes alot of sense. Fellow Flaylock Believer
Mortishai Belmont G.L.O.R.Y General Tso's Alliance 316	Posted - 2014.12.17 14:53:00 - [29] - Quote It's never going to happen. Dust 514 is a business. If they helped you in anyway to get more ISK, then their sales on AUR would drop. The main sales aside from boosters are the suits, vehicles, modules, and weapons that you can buy so you can circumvent having to spend ISK. It would be a poor business decision to increase the attainability of ISK anymore then they already have. Sure I'd be on the side that would say "give us some more", but I also understand what that would be a mainly futile argument knowing how the situation stands from the other point of view. Actually, keeping ISK low and trying to get more people to buy AUR is beneficial for you and everyone else as well. Without people spending money, the game your talking about wouldn't be able to sustain it'self and you'd have to find a new game to play c: As well as keeping ISK payouts lower to increase people spending real money, also helps promote growth and new content for the game. G.L.O.R.Y Soldier, I'm that Amarr heavy you warn your team about <3 -Heavy/Logi/Assault/Scout-
Syeven Reed T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 1075	Posted - 2014.12.17 14:56:00 - [30] - Quote Love this idea, made a thread about it a while back (no where near as in depth though). What thing that puzzles me though, how is salvage to be distributed? Am I going to have a better chance of obtaining salvage of the people I kill? Or is it a flat table of all loot aquired split equally for each player? I'm at work right now but when I get back I would love to help keep this thread alive. SCAN ATTEMPT PREVENTED EvE - 21 Day Trial

Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2397	Posted - 2014.12.17 16:16:00 - [31] - Quote +1 SMB, a worthy proposal! The most valuable part of this proposition, imo, is the indexing of payouts to in-match actions, namely kills. It's an approach we need to take for all payouts - the game should be telling players through it's reward structure that they are paid(ISK, salvage, rewards, etc) only for contributions made on the battlefield. A couple of points/observations re: selling salvage and the AUR-based market agent. I'm currently not spending RL $ on DUST. Spent a fair bit at the beginning, but until CCP gives us some kind of clear indication wtf is going on with DUST/Legion i feel it would be personally irresponsible of me to spend money on this game. Some players feel the same way, some don't, but the punchline is no AUR blue softporn sales agent lady will grace my merc quarters. Also, since i don't really need the ISK, i'm not tempted to sell to the NPC market at this time, thinking that when/if we get a real player market we can prolly do better there on many items, dog items can then be NPC sold. An alternative approach to reselling salvage is 'nanite recycling': the original lore for DUST implied that BPOs or BPCs would be a merc's only possessions and that gear would be produced by submitting those blueprints to a nanite fabrication process. Salvage would get refined down to a puddle of nanites(with inefficiency ofc) and go into the merc's 'nanite wallet' to be spent constructing gear the merc needed. There's a lot of value for DUST/New Eden in this approach and it really desreves it's own topic, but the primary advantage wrt your proposal is that it makes 'reselling' salvage loot easy: just press the 'recycle' button. Really like the way you've calibrated the salvage rate: I don't want to salvage to allow me to run proto all day long, i want it to allow me to fight hard/smart and almost break even in a losing battle. The worst thing we could do is calibrate salvage so that it allowed an average player like myself to be stupid and sloppy - the only way to do better in DUST should be to do better in DUST. Lastly, my favorite candidate for the Logi question is a contract system robust and flexible enough so that individual players could sign personal support contracts on the fly in pub matches. Logis: charge what the market will bear!! PSN: RationalSpark
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5457	Posted - 2014.12.17 16:36:00 - [32] - Quote Well.... it would make fighting Nyan San a lot more profitable... Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
SirManBoy Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 724	Posted - 2014.12.21 03:16:00 - [33] - Quote Thanks for all the replies. I'll try to respond to some of you over the next couple of days.
SirManBoy Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 726	Posted - 2014.12.28 15:56:00 - [34] - Quote Mortishai Belmont wrote: It's never going to happen. Dust 514 is a business. If they helped you in anyway to get more ISK, then their sales on AUR would drop. The main sales aside from boosters are the suits, vehicles, modules, and weapons that you can buy so you can circumvent having to spend ISK. It would be a poor business decision to increase the attainability of ISK anymore then they already have. Sure I'd be on the side that would say "give us some more", but I also understand what that would be a mainly futile argument knowing how the situation stands from the other point of view. Actually, keeping ISK low and trying to get more people to buy AUR is beneficial for you and everyone else as well. Without people spending money, the game your talking about wouldn't be able to sustain it'self and you'd have to find a new game to play c: As well as keeping ISK payouts lower to increase people spending real money, also helps promote growth and new content for the game. A more motivated player base who fights harder and produces better, more exhilarating matches is a better money maker for CCP than gear sales, especially in the long run. Monetization is important, but it can't trump decisions that clearly make Dust 514 a better game.
SirManBoy Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 726	Posted - 2014.12.28 15:59:00 - [35] - Quote Syeven Reed wrote: Love this idea, made a thread about it a while back (no where near as in depth though). What thing that puzzles me though, how is salvage to be distributed? Am I going to have a better chance of obtaining salvage of the people I kill? Or is it a flat table of all loot aquired split equally for each player? I'm at work right now but when I get back I would love to help keep this thread alive. My preference would be that you keep everything from the mercs you kill yourself. I believe that that is the key to motivating players to fight tooth and nail.
SirManBoy Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 726	Posted - 2014.12.28 16:13:00 - [36] - Quote Mister Goo wrote: wrote: SirManBoy Also, don't underestimate the potential for logis to demand tips from highly profitable slayers who appreciate their contributions and skill set, and therefore wish to enthusiastically patronize their support work. Playing in a squad this request would be heard and you would be tipped by your squad mates. Everyone else would not respond to your requests except with an HTFU. You need to build in a more reliable system for support characters to receive ISK. Your Idea is good and could work. It needs to be equally lucrative for all team members, including the support ones. Leaving the Logi's to beg for reimbursement is not a solution for everyone, its only for the slayer class. If you're a logi that's routinely producing 3000 WP-4000 WP for your squad, then it's not so hard to believe that people would want to support your efforts, especially those players who are having exceptional matches and becoming richer thanks your scans, reps, etc. But more to the point, logis would primarily benefit from the increased intensity of the matches. Intense matches produce big time WP and logis remain the masters of WP in this game. Give them match conditions that create more opportunities for them to provide support and they will thrive. Also, nothing is stopping logis from using their gun from time to time. In fact, they absolutely should! And this system is a motivator for them to do just that. Even if this doesn't turn out to be adequate in the end for logistics players, it's still a system worth trying and it can be improved upon with further tweaks. You can't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
Kierkegaard Soren THE HANDS OF DEATH RUST415 610	Posted - 2014.12.29 00:08:00 - [37] - Quote +1 to this idea, I would really like to see it implemented, along with an overhaul of with how we pay out for winning matches. As it stands, it can be profitable to lose the match so long as you play it safe and I'd like to see this change in a way that compliments salvage rewards for fighting hard. Essentially, losers shouldn't get paid much unless they were truly exceptional whilst winners should get the jackpot for fulfilling the contract they took on. Dedicated Commando. "He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." -Paul Atreides.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback. 4612	Posted - 2015.02.24 05:14:00 - [38] - Quote This continues to be a necessary addition to Dust. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 691	Posted - 2015.02.24 05:53:00 - [39] - Quote I have a few questions about this. 1: Roles that provide few kills. Logi, Scouts (who are playing scout scout and not slayer scout), overwatch suppression, people that provide point defense to rarely attacked points (in skirm,) snipers that only snipe critical battlefield targets, transport LAV/Dropship drivers to name a few. I like the proposal (it has been made by many people many times in the past and CCP seems to be interested in it) -- but it seems like it leaves out a lot of roles and encourages everyone into the 'slayer' role. Of course you want the majority of your team to be slayers -- but not everyone. That discourages the selfless 'teamplay' styles some people have. Under your proposal, how would these roles be compensated ISK wise? 2: The recent increase in availability of so called 'free suits.' Now that blueprints are starting to become common, people are 'farming isk' at a greater rate would negatively impact potential salvage. Especially in the case of Apex where, if you keep what you kill, you are looking at getting basic modules at best once they code salvage to account for the blueprints. How would these factor in to ISK reimbursement. 3: ISK generation. Dust is a game of economics as much as anything. We have to ask ourselves -- should we be ABLE to afford to run xyz all the time? Is CCP not trying to keep the amount of constant proto use down due to economic cost? How would your proposal interact with that? Are not the example numbers you have given mean that one could run proto all day every day and still profit? Is that reasonable?
HOLY PERFECTION OUTCAST MERCS RISE of LEGION 43	Posted - 2015.02.24 07:23:00 - [40] - Quote Ohh... really, what about the logis. I spend more than you at 200,000 K a suit for proto. And basic Logis cost upwards of 70-80K a suit. I die a lot more as well, so wtf. *I WILL WIN... DESTINY*

HOLY PERFECTION OUTCAST MERCS RISE of LEGION 43	Posted - 2015.02.24 07:25:00 - [41] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: Mister Goo wrote: wrote: SirManBoy Also, don't underestimate the potential for logis to demand tips from highly profitable slayers who appreciate their contributions and skill set, and therefore wish to enthusiastically patronize their support work. Playing in a squad this request would be heard and you would be tipped by your squad mates. Everyone else would not respond to your requests except with an HTFU. You need to build in a more reliable system for support characters to receive ISK. Your Idea is good and could work. It needs to be equally lucrative for all team members, including the support ones. Leaving the Logi's to beg for reimbursement is not a solution for everyone, its only for the slayer class. If you're a logi that's routinely producing 3000 WP-4000 WP for your squad, then it's not so hard to believe that people would want to support your efforts, especially those players who are having exceptional matches and becoming richer thanks your scans, reps, etc. But more to the point, logis would primarily benefit from the increased intensity of the matches. Intense matches produce big time WP and logis remain the masters of WP in this game. Give them match conditions that create more opportunities for them to provide support and they will thrive. Also, nothing is stopping logis from using their gun from time to time. In fact, they absolutely should! And this system is a motivator for them to do just that. Even if this doesn't turn out to be adequate in the end for logistics players, it's still a system worth trying and it can be improved upon with further tweaks. You can't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Bull, "a logi benifits from the increced action". What!!! I can already see how this is going to go. ok, your going to give killers that, then give no cooldown period for the rep tool. *I WILL WIN... DESTINY*
Lorhak Gannarsein Nos Nothi 4326	Posted - 2015.02.24 08:07:00 - [42] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: Mortishai Belmont wrote: It's never going to happen. Dust 514 is a business. If they helped you in anyway to get more ISK, then their sales on AUR would drop. The main sales aside from boosters are the suits, vehicles, modules, and weapons that you can buy so you can circumvent having to spend ISK. It would be a poor business decision to increase the attainability of ISK anymore then they already have. Sure I'd be on the side that would say "give us some more", but I also understand what that would be a mainly futile argument knowing how the situation stands from the other point of view. Actually, keeping ISK low and trying to get more people to buy AUR is beneficial for you and everyone else as well. Without people spending money, the game your talking about wouldn't be able to sustain it'self and you'd have to find a new game to play c: As well as keeping ISK payouts lower to increase people spending real money, also helps promote growth and new content for the game. A more motivated player base who fights harder and produces better, more exhilarating matches is a better money maker for CCP than gear sales, especially in the long run. Monetization is important, but it can't trump decisions that clearly make Dust 514 a better game. This proposal of yours actually supports increased monetisation - the most efficient way (based on time put in) to increase loyalty rank is to spend truly obscene amounts of money on the game; simply playing the game is really not going to increase your rank in a hurry, and investing in an agent early on could make a huge difference to your ISK reserves, thereby promoting the purchase of AUR as well (at least as a one-off). And, of course, like you said, a motivated playerbase spends AUR on boosters :P HOLY PERFECTION wrote: Bull, "a logi benifits from the increced action". What!!! I can already see how this is going to go. ok, your going to give killers that, then give no cooldown period for the rep tool. All I can say is that you should try not dying so often. My slayer-CalLogi (so many grenades!) is expensive, but I die about three times a match (cos I'm a scrub). I get pretty respectable WP outlays thanks to nanohives and uplinks. Were I using a repair tool, not only would I not die (because, you know, not in the line of fire) I'd also be making huge amounts of WP. The cap resets when you score an assist (or a kill), from memory. Apologies for offtopic post, SMB Guys, we need to stop calling MU a 'matchmaker' when it's actually a 'teambuilder'. And I want to play FE:A now. Damn.


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