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DeadlyAztec11
Ostrakon Agency
6265
   |
Posted - 2014.12.03 03:35:00 -
[1] - Quote
Just because a weapon is used often does not mean it is necessarily overpowered. Neither are underused weapons underpowered.
A great example is the Laser Rifle. It is a very underused weapon and yet it is extremely powerful when it us used. Which makes it just barely balanced.
The BAR is another great example. It is said to be overpowered because it is used more than any of the other AR types. Yet, people using the Breach AR tend to get very similar K/D's to people using the Tactical Assault Rifle and Burst Assault Rifle. Yet both of those weapons are considered underpowered.
Do you see the logical fallacy in the argumentation of many of these nerf and buff posts that assume that overused is synonymous to overpowered? It is a fallacy that is terribly incorrect and cancerous for the community.
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TYCHUS MAXWELL
The Fun Police
637
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Posted - 2014.12.03 03:38:00 -
[2] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Just because a weapon is used often does not mean it is necessarily overpowered. Neither are underused weapons underpowered.
A great example is the Laser Rifle. It is a very underused weapon and yet it is extremely powerful when it us used. Which makes it just barely balanced.
The BAR is another great example. It is said to be overpowered because it is used more than any of the other AR types. Yet, people using the Breach AR tend to get very similar K/D's to people using the Tactical Assault Rifle and Burst Assault Rifle. Yet both of those weapons are considered underpowered.
Do you see the logical fallacy in the argumentation of many of these nerf and buff posts that assume that overused is synonymous to overpowered? It is a fallacy that is terribly incorrect and cancerous for the community.
I'm sorry friend but you are simply wrong and here's why:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_dominance
Next you will tell me that Terran wasn't OP when SC2 hit...
I know we all like to pretend everyone but ourselves in these games are all aspies but we really aren't. |
One Eyed King
Land of the BIind
6307
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Posted - 2014.12.03 03:44:00 -
[3] - Quote
I would agree if that were the only data used to determine whether or not something was over powered or not.
The problem is that the other data used, like wp/d etc often corroborates the sales data.
The fact is, in a competitive setting people use what is most effective, and in a game like Dust where there is a cost associated with death, that market data is more reliable than normal, though not totally perfect.
Thunderbolt. verb and noun.
"James thunderbolted in his pants."
"I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
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DeadlyAztec11
Ostrakon Agency
6266
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Posted - 2014.12.03 03:44:00 -
[4] - Quote
TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Just because a weapon is used often does not mean it is necessarily overpowered. Neither are underused weapons underpowered.
A great example is the Laser Rifle. It is a very underused weapon and yet it is extremely powerful when it us used. Which makes it just barely balanced.
The BAR is another great example. It is said to be overpowered because it is used more than any of the other AR types. Yet, people using the Breach AR tend to get very similar K/D's to people using the Tactical Assault Rifle and Burst Assault Rifle. Yet both of those weapons are considered underpowered.
Do you see the logical fallacy in the argumentation of many of these nerf and buff posts that assume that overused is synonymous to overpowered? It is a fallacy that is terribly incorrect and cancerous for the community. I'm sorry friend but you are simply wrong and here's why: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_dominanceNext you will tell me that Terran wasn't OP when SC2 hit... I know we all like to pretend everyone but ourselves in these games are all aspies but we really aren't.
I didn't even understand half of what you were referencing. Though, from what I did gather I have managed a rebuttal:
Strategy Gëá Weapon
Check & mate.
Also, by your choosing of that argument I see that you have missed the conclusion of my original plea.
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DeadlyAztec11
Ostrakon Agency
6266
|
Posted - 2014.12.03 03:47:00 -
[5] - Quote
One Eyed King wrote:I would agree if that were the only data used to determine whether or not something was over powered or not.
The problem is that the other data used, like wp/d etc often corroborates the sales data.
The fact is, in a competitive setting people use what is most effective, and in a game like Dust where there is a cost associated with death, that market data is more reliable than normal, though not totally perfect.
It is an extremely innacurate method of choosing what to define as being overpowered though. Because sales data simply means that an item is being lost more consistently in battle. That can actually mean a weapon is actually performing more meekly since its users are dieing more often.
The duplicity in this data is impossible to over look.
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LUGMOS
YELLOW JESUS EXP FORCE
1006
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Posted - 2014.12.03 03:54:00 -
[6] - Quote
Actually, there is more at play here.
Let's take your example of the laser rifle. If it were used more, it would not be overpowered. Why? Because it takes more "skill" to use and it is a niche weapon. It cannot kill in close range effectively and will be outperformed vastly by close range weapons in CQC, so it has a weakness.
Let's compare it to the BAR. It takes about the same skill "skill" to use, seeing that they both have ridiculously accurate hipfire, no kick, and laser accurate. However, the Breach AR has more range than its regular variant, but doesn't do as well at range. Like the laser rifle, it has the potential to kill multiple people in one clip. However, it can disengage and then reengage, not like the laser rifle, where it has to be in one sitting. The laser rifle is also held back by its relatively low ammo reserves, while the breach is not. Also, the breach can cover multiple ranges, both close and medium, equally effectively, while the laser rifle does not.
There is also a discrepancy in the meaning of breach and this weapon's range. Typical breaches occur in CQC range, where it should absolutely dominate. However, for some odd reason, it does not lose range compared to its regular variant. Just another thought.
So in conclusion, (relative) ease of use coupled with adaptibility to different situations, make things OP, and the ease of use part leads to more people using it. So typically, a weapon being overused tends to mean it's OP, or at least marginally better at everything.
Quafe
Anti-FoTM Prof. V
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DeadlyAztec11
Ostrakon Agency
6266
|
Posted - 2014.12.03 04:04:00 -
[7] - Quote
LUGMOS wrote:Actually, there is more at play here.
Let's take your example of the laser rifle. If it were used more, it would not be overpowered. Why? Because it takes more "skill" to use and it is a niche weapon. It cannot kill in close range effectively and will be outperformed vastly by close range weapons in CQC, so it has a weakness.
Let's compare it to the BAR. It takes about the same skill "skill" to use, seeing that they both have ridiculously accurate hipfire, no kick, and laser accurate. However, the Breach AR has more range than its regular variant, but doesn't do as well at range. Like the laser rifle, it has the potential to kill multiple people in one clip. However, it can disengage and then reengage, not like the laser rifle, where it has to be in one sitting. The laser rifle is also held back by its relatively low ammo reserves, while the breach is not. Also, the breach can cover multiple ranges, both close and medium, equally effectively, while the laser rifle does not.
There is also a discrepancy in the meaning of breach and this weapon's range. Typical breaches occur in CQC range, where it should absolutely dominate. However, for some odd reason, it does not lose range compared to its regular variant. Just another thought.
So in conclusion, (relative) ease of use coupled with adaptibility to different situations, make things OP, and the ease of use part leads to more people using it. So typically, a weapon being overused tends to mean it's OP, or at least marginally better at everything.
Your reasoning is that the Laser Rifle is innefective in CQC, therefore the BAR is a superior weapon. Yet the Laser Rifle dominates medium range and no other weapon can contest it in its range. Also it even extends its force into long range,edging on the effectiveness of the Rail Rifle and Sniper Rifle.
The Laser Rifle is just barely not out of step. Yet it is still underused.
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
3001
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Posted - 2014.12.03 04:06:00 -
[8] - Quote
This is all I hear you saying
"Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms.
FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ
I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
5278
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Posted - 2014.12.03 04:13:00 -
[9] - Quote
Ccp used more than sales data to determine over performance. Kills per second and kills per death are used, if I recall correctly. Those things and more.
Your argument is invalid.
My advice to you, playa...
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Joseph Ridgeson
WarRavens
Capital Punishment.
2851
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Posted - 2014.12.03 04:14:00 -
[10] - Quote
When it first comes to things like "people using the BAR get similar K/D ratios as those using different Assault Rifles", I can only ask "how do you know this?" It isn't a number that players can easily see. Eyeballing it in games is also not a very efficient manner as Confirmation Bias starts to kick in. I mean no insult; I am genuinely curious how you have come to this statement.
Stating "Overused Gëá Overpowered" by attempting to show "Underused Gëá Underpowered" with the Laser Rifle doesn't work as well as you would think. The Laser Rifle has a crippling weakness in that it is nearly worthless at close range. At long range it is devastating but so is the Scrambler and Rail Rifle and they are not as crippled at close range. The Laser Rifle is not balanced on it being rarely used; it is balanced by having that weakness. This means the only thing you have been able to show is that the Laser Rifle is a balanced weapon despite not being very used and you are attempting to leverage that into a more commonly used weapon is just as balanced. If you were attempting to say "X isn't used a lot because it is OP because Y is underused and it is OP", it doesn't work well because no one would argue that the Laser Rifle is overpowered.
Saying "this thing is rarely used but when it is used it is really powerful, which makes it barely balanced" is implying that if it were used all the time it would be overpowered. I doubt it greatly. You then move to say "just because the BAR is popular doesn't mean it is overpowered" which I do not believe follows in your argument. You attempt to prove Overused Gëá Overpowered by starting with Underused Gëá Underpowered but you choose a weapon that not many people would question as overpowered. It doesn't work very well.
After the Rail Rifle's kick was nerfed but really when the charge was hit, what weapon did you notice become a lot more popular? I can certainly say I did not see nearly as many BAR as I did before that change happened. The term for a weapon or strategy that might be too powerful but has not been wildly discussed before is Sleeper OP. I think it could be argued that the BAR was Sleeper OP. Whether or not it is overpowered is another thing but I still maintain that your argument, at least how it is currently constructed and how I understand it to be, doesn't stand up as well as it needs to.
"This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
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DeadlyAztec11
Ostrakon Agency
6267
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Posted - 2014.12.03 04:19:00 -
[11] - Quote
My favorite gun is the ASCR. Your argument is invalid. I haven't seriously committed to using the BAR since April. My last use of the BAR was two weeks ago for two matches only. I found the weapon good, but not good enough to warrant switching to it outside of my preferences. If the BAR was removed tomorrow all my classes would be unaffected. The reason I am defending it is becayse of principals.
In short...
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Blueprint For Murder
Storm Wind Strikeforce
Caldari State
425
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Posted - 2014.12.03 04:19:00 -
[12] - Quote
There are different types of balance ideally every weapon would be used equally because this would create a great variety in game play. Then there is balance as in strength of a weapon.
Ease of use is something that you seem to miss OP the LR is not very easy to use at first with its extra loose movement and precision. All of the ARs are easy to use, but worthless at range,The RR and CR are very easy to use and have the strongest profiles and he HMG is very easy to use and very strong with in its ranges.
Now there are meant to be mechanics to balance the RR and HMG, but for what every reason these weapons have been buffed well beyond the usefulness of these mechanics. As for the CR it was brought to equality with the other rifles with no balancing mechanics which was just a failure on the devs part.
21 day fast 12/1/14 Life-$
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DeadlyAztec11
Ostrakon Agency
6267
|
Posted - 2014.12.03 04:21:00 -
[13] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Ccp used more than sales data to determine over performance. Kills per second and kills per death are used, if I recall correctly. Those things and more.
Your argument is invalid.
Note, I never said that CCP only used certain data. I merely acknowledged some of the data they do use.
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Soldner VonKuechle
SAM-MIK
General Tso's Alliance
1005
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Posted - 2014.12.03 04:26:00 -
[14] - Quote
In case you "forgot" how CCP determined to nerf the rail rifle, here's the link.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2425277#post2425277
Your precious* Bar is next Azteca, suck it up.
*your defense of it is what determined it to be "precious"
As Ratatti power grows, my tinfoil hat weakness, and I enjoy the game more.
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Meeko Fent
Kirkinen Risk Control
Caldari State
2175
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Posted - 2014.12.03 04:57:00 -
[15] - Quote
* Quick Maths*
The ADV Breach AR has a base DPS of 499.
The ADV Common AR has a base DPS of 493.
Maybe My Maths is funny, but one doesn't seem to out shine the other a great deal on the Statistics side of things.
I will admit, that the Breach does have a longer range then the Common, and that SHOULD be addressed, but otherwise, Its just a frequently used weapon that gets good results. You should be able to get similar results from a Common AR.
Perhaps its that Armor suits are hot, and they just stack their highs w/ Damage mods, making that high alpha higher.
My opinion on this, however, is that the only thing that should change right now, is that the Optimal should be toned down to 50m (from 74m), and its max range should be cut to 100m (from 250m) as to provide a strong drawback to the potential bonus they can get from being better w/ damage mods.
But Hulk-Smashing It with the ever-loving nerf hammer isn't going to do much other then take an option out the running for a good rifle.
I Live for Tears
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LUGMOS
YELLOW JESUS EXP FORCE
1006
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Posted - 2014.12.03 05:09:00 -
[16] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Your reasoning is that the Laser Rifle is innefective in CQC, therefore the BAR is a superior weapon. Yet the Laser Rifle dominates medium range and no other weapon can contest it in its range. Also it even extends its force into long range,edging on the effectiveness of the Rail Rifle and Sniper Rifle.
The Laser Rifle is just barely not out of step. Yet it is still underused.
Come on man...
Did you even read the entire thing? And if you did, did you actually pay attention and not skim? There were at least four different points I made reinforcing my logic on why the BAR is slightly over performing...
I'll even give you another, right here. Sure the laser rifle dominates, but only after a certain point where it's threshold makes its damage very effective. While yes it may be good at the RR's range, the Rail Rifle has a similar mechanic, a charge up time. By these terms, these two rifles are almost equal on the playing field.
Quafe
Anti-FoTM Prof. V
Forum Scavenger Prof. V
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Blueprint For Murder
Storm Wind Strikeforce
Caldari State
426
|
Posted - 2014.12.03 05:11:00 -
[17] - Quote
The BrAR is stronger at mid range for sure the high dispersion of the standard insures it doesn't always reach its damage potential at mid ranges. Another thing to take into consideration is that shield profiles are net negative profiles.
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LUGMOS
YELLOW JESUS EXP FORCE
1006
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Posted - 2014.12.03 05:12:00 -
[18] - Quote
Meeko Fent wrote:* Quick Maths*
The ADV Breach AR has a base DPS of 499.
The ADV Common AR has a base DPS of 493.
Maybe My Maths is funny, but one doesn't seem to out shine the other a great deal on the Statistics side of things.
I will admit, that the Breach does have a longer range then the Common, and that SHOULD be addressed, but otherwise, Its just a frequently used weapon that gets good results. You should be able to get similar results from a Common AR.
Perhaps its that Armor suits are hot, and they just stack their highs w/ Damage mods, making that high alpha higher.
My opinion on this, however, is that the only thing that should change right now, is that the Optimal should be toned down to 50m (from 74m), and its max range should be cut to 100m (from 250m) as to provide a strong drawback to the potential bonus they can get from being better w/ damage mods.
But Hulk-Smashing It with the ever-loving nerf hammer isn't going to do much other then take an option out the running for a good rifle.
Also, check out the match for damage per clip and total damage in all the ammo. Damage application is also much more reliable with no kick and lower RoF, so in truth, you lose some with the regular while mostly maintaining it on the Breach.
Quafe
Anti-FoTM Prof. V
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John Cambell
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2014.12.03 05:16:00 -
[19] - Quote
True, no one used the SCR but it was found to be OP.
A closely kept secret ;) |
Imp Smash
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
447
|
Posted - 2014.12.03 05:26:00 -
[20] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Just because a weapon is used often does not mean it is necessarily overpowered. Neither are underused weapons underpowered.
A great example is the Laser Rifle. It is a very underused weapon and yet it is extremely powerful when it us used. Which makes it just barely balanced.
The BAR is another great example. It is said to be overpowered because it is used more than any of the other AR types. Yet, people using the Breach AR tend to get very similar K/D's to people using the Tactical Assault Rifle and Burst Assault Rifle. Yet both of those weapons are considered underpowered.
Do you see the logical fallacy in the argumentation of many of these nerf and buff posts that assume that overused is synonymous to overpowered? It is a fallacy that is terribly incorrect and cancerous for the community.
The laser rifle was a bad analogy though. Because the laser rifle is, as you said, powerful, it also has a lot of weaknesses. It is in fact the worst rifle at MOST ranges. It is the least flexible rifle as well. So even though it is quite dangerous at it's very limited range which can only be applied in very limited situations with very specific setups against very specific enemies, it has plenty of drawbacks.
A lot of the overused OP weapons are OP not because they are powerful in a given situation, but because they are powerful in all situations. One of the things about Dust is that gun classes all have a range and enemy type at which it is weak. Some of the so called 'OP' guns don't really have a weakness. At their 'weak' area they are just 'good.'
You are right that overused doesn't always mean overpowered. But overpowered gets used a lot... |
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Meeko Fent
Kirkinen Risk Control
Caldari State
2178
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Posted - 2014.12.03 05:26:00 -
[21] - Quote
LUGMOS wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:* Quick Maths*
The ADV Breach AR has a base DPS of 499.
The ADV Common AR has a base DPS of 493.
Maybe My Maths is funny, but one doesn't seem to out shine the other a great deal on the Statistics side of things.
I will admit, that the Breach does have a longer range then the Common, and that SHOULD be addressed, but otherwise, Its just a frequently used weapon that gets good results. You should be able to get similar results from a Common AR.
Perhaps its that Armor suits are hot, and they just stack their highs w/ Damage mods, making that high alpha higher.
My opinion on this, however, is that the only thing that should change right now, is that the Optimal should be toned down to 50m (from 74m), and its max range should be cut to 100m (from 250m) as to provide a strong drawback to the potential bonus they can get from being better w/ damage mods.
But Hulk-Smashing It with the ever-loving nerf hammer isn't going to do much other then take an option out the running for a good rifle. Also, check out the match for damage per clip and total damage in all the ammo. Damage application is also much more reliable with no kick and lower RoF, so in truth, you lose some with the regular while mostly maintaining it on the Breach.
Perhaps. Hang about.
*More Quick Maths*
Regular ADV AR has 2220 base* damage per clip.
Breach ADV AR has 2520 base* damage per clip.
That doesn't seem to big an issue, at least to me anyway.
But, you are right about that dispersion decrease. The Kick is an arguable point, especially on the AR, which lacks any meaningful recoil on the standard either; however the breach's dispersion IS tighter then the Common AR, which makes it a good deal stronger in the CQC of so many maps now, which is why reducing its range will fit it into its range band better.
*As said before, the breach does benefit more from damage mods, so a breach has higher potential for damage per clip, so modded damage per clip could edge farther out over the Regular AR
I Live for Tears
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Fizzer XCIV
Heaven's Lost Property
Negative-Feedback
1268
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Posted - 2014.12.03 05:55:00 -
[22] - Quote
Meeko Fent wrote:
*More Quick Maths*
Regular ADV AR has 2220 base* damage per clip.
Breach ADV AR has 2520 base* damage per clip.
That doesn't seem to big an issue, at least to me anyway.
You'd be surprised how much 300 extra damage per mag can do.
Just ask any Amassault or Minassault users. Their bonuses don't even do that much.
Please, make my Opus pretty...
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thehellisgoingon
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
23
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Posted - 2014.12.03 05:59:00 -
[23] - Quote
tactical AR and Burst AR suck in my hands. The breach. Woo |
Meeko Fent
Kirkinen Risk Control
Caldari State
2178
|
Posted - 2014.12.03 06:11:00 -
[24] - Quote
Fizzer XCIV wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:
*More Quick Maths*
Regular ADV AR has 2220 base* damage per clip.
Breach ADV AR has 2520 base* damage per clip.
That doesn't seem to big an issue, at least to me anyway.
You'd be surprised how much 300 extra damage per mag can do. Just ask any Amassault or Minassault users. The Minassault bonus adds about 400 damage per mag. The Amassault adds about 325 under normal circumstances. Also, you got the numbers pretty far off... The ADV AR has1953 per mag. The ADV BrAR has 2192 per mag. That's 240 more damage.
I used protofits, so it added the bonuses to the numbers.
I Live for Tears
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
1550
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Posted - 2014.12.03 06:15:00 -
[25] - Quote
TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Just because a weapon is used often does not mean it is necessarily overpowered. Neither are underused weapons underpowered.
A great example is the Laser Rifle. It is a very underused weapon and yet it is extremely powerful when it us used. Which makes it just barely balanced.
The BAR is another great example. It is said to be overpowered because it is used more than any of the other AR types. Yet, people using the Breach AR tend to get very similar K/D's to people using the Tactical Assault Rifle and Burst Assault Rifle. Yet both of those weapons are considered underpowered.
Do you see the logical fallacy in the argumentation of many of these nerf and buff posts that assume that overused is synonymous to overpowered? It is a fallacy that is terribly incorrect and cancerous for the community. I'm sorry friend but you are simply wrong and here's why: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_dominanceNext you will tell me that Terran wasn't OP when SC2 hit... I know we all like to pretend everyone but ourselves in these games are all aspies but we really aren't.
Deadlyztec says:
Overused is NOT ALWAYS overpowered.
Tychus says:
Overused IS ALWAYS overpowered.
Which one is more likely closer to truth, you decide...
People would enjoy Dust a lot more if they accepted the fact that EVERYTHING is subject to change
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Ryme Intrinseca
Dead Man's Game
RUST415
2159
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Posted - 2014.12.03 07:49:00 -
[26] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:The BAR is another great example. It is said to be overpowered because it is used more than any of the other AR types. Yet, people using the Breach AR tend to get very similar K/D's to people using the Tactical Assault Rifle and Burst Assault Rifle. Yet both of those weapons are considered underpowered.
I don't have K/D numbers. But this graph suggests these numbers:
BrAR - 1.6 K/sec (above average)
BuAR - 1.2 K/sec (below average)
TAR - 1.0 K/sec (below average)
So the evidence is that the BrAR is rather more effective. |
Lynn Beck
Delta Vanguard 6
2312
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Posted - 2014.12.03 07:58:00 -
[27] - Quote
Why are people pushing this BS that the Breach AR is supposed to be CQC?
It takes after the Rail RIfle, thus it is (supposed to be) a lower DPS, higher damage per shot/range variant of the AR.
Thusly: Simple fact it does MORE DPS than a Assault Assault Rifle is grounds for IT'S ******* OP.
What if we made a Breach Combat Rifle, that had +10m range and +4 DPS, but traded -15% RoF for +18% damage?
what if the Breach Shotgun had a SHORTER range than the normal(if this is what you guys seriously think should happen)?
What if we made the Breach SG's damage so high that it did better DPS than a normal SG, but was "balanced" by it's low clipsize and rate of fire?
WHAT IF. We made the Breach MD do 700 damage?
Breach =\= CQC, it's Long Range/Lower DPS. Live with it, or push to swap Assault and Breach hipfire.
General John Ripper
-BAM! I'm Emeril Lagasse.
This message was approved by the 'Nobody Loved You' Foundation'
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Fizzer XCIV
Heaven's Lost Property
Negative-Feedback
1270
|
Posted - 2014.12.03 08:13:00 -
[28] - Quote
Lynn Beck wrote:Why are people pushing this BS that the Breach AR is supposed to be CQC?
It takes after the Rail RIfle, thus it is (supposed to be) a lower DPS, higher damage per shot/range variant of the AR.
Thusly: Simple fact it does MORE DPS than a Assault Assault Rifle is grounds for IT'S ******* OP.
What if we made a Breach Combat Rifle, that had +10m range and +4 DPS, but traded -15% RoF for +18% damage?
what if the Breach Shotgun had a SHORTER range than the normal(if this is what you guys seriously think should happen)?
What if we made the Breach SG's damage so high that it did better DPS than a normal SG, but was "balanced" by it's low clipsize and rate of fire?
WHAT IF. We made the Breach MD do 700 damage?
Breach =\= CQC, it's Long Range/Lower DPS. Live with it, or push to swap Assault and Breach hipfire.
Give me proof that breach weapons have a longer range than their normal counterparts and I'll not write this argument off as horseshit.
Because so far, EVERY Breach variant has exactly the same, or really damn close to,(within a few meters, and some have shorter range)the same range as the normal weapon that they are a variant of.
Every single one. No exception.
Breach AR longer
Breach MD same
Breach ScP shorter
Breach Shotgun same
Breach Forgegun same
Breach SMG shorter
Breach Flaylock same
All of these weapons, which are all of the breach weapons in the game, have ranges that are exactly the same as, or slightly shorter than their normal counter parts.
The Rail Rifle has a long range because it is a Caldari weapon, not because it it a Breach weapon.
Breach isnt long range. Breach is slow and hard hitting. That's it.
Please, make my Opus pretty...
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Mexxx Dust-Slayer
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
154
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Posted - 2014.12.03 08:23:00 -
[29] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Just because a weapon is used often does not mean it is necessarily overpowered. Neither are underused weapons underpowered.
A great example is the Laser Rifle. It is a very underused weapon and yet it is extremely powerful when it us used. Which makes it just barely balanced.
The BAR is another great example. It is said to be overpowered because it is used more than any of the other AR types. Yet, people using the Breach AR tend to get very similar K/D's to people using the Tactical Assault Rifle and Burst Assault Rifle. Yet both of those weapons are considered underpowered.
Do you see the logical fallacy in the argumentation of many of these nerf and buff posts that assume that overused is synonymous to overpowered? It is a fallacy that is terribly incorrect and cancerous for the community.
Lol F your fallacy fantasy. do some math you will see how the BrAR is overpowered. And a K/D comparison of people using the weapons is a fallacy.
The TacAR and BurstAR require some skill because for 1, they at least kick and have dispersion. I don't know how, but if you really are seeing people using the BrAR and achieving similar K/D's to people using the TacAr and BurstAR then know the BrAR user requires a quarter of the skill to do so.
Besides having no kick and near no dispersion and thus the best applyable DPS by far, the BrAR is simply designed wrong. It is supposed to have the lowest DPS of the ARs yet it has the highest, along with no handling issues.
Then people argue the BrAR is fine and other weapons need a buff to its standard, which will just bring us a more skill less call of duty like game. The HMG and Shotty are already at that standard. |
Spectral Clone
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3219
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Posted - 2014.12.03 08:30:00 -
[30] - Quote
Its true that correlation does not imply causation.
But correlation itself can indicate that there is a problem somewhere. 
EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet".
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Mexxx Dust-Slayer
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
154
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Posted - 2014.12.03 08:30:00 -
[31] - Quote
Fizzer XCIV wrote:Lynn Beck wrote:Why are people pushing this BS that the Breach AR is supposed to be CQC?
It takes after the Rail RIfle, thus it is (supposed to be) a lower DPS, higher damage per shot/range variant of the AR.
Thusly: Simple fact it does MORE DPS than a Assault Assault Rifle is grounds for IT'S ******* OP.
What if we made a Breach Combat Rifle, that had +10m range and +4 DPS, but traded -15% RoF for +18% damage?
what if the Breach Shotgun had a SHORTER range than the normal(if this is what you guys seriously think should happen)?
What if we made the Breach SG's damage so high that it did better DPS than a normal SG, but was "balanced" by it's low clipsize and rate of fire?
WHAT IF. We made the Breach MD do 700 damage?
Breach =\= CQC, it's Long Range/Lower DPS. Live with it, or push to swap Assault and Breach hipfire. Give me proof that breach weapons have a longer range than their normal counterparts and I'll not write this argument off as horseshit. Because so far, EVERY Breach variant has exactly the same, or really damn close to,(within a few meters, and some have shorter range)the same range as the normal weapon that they are a variant of. Every single one. No exception. Breach AR longer Breach MD same Breach ScP shorter Breach Shotgun same Breach Forgegun same Breach SMG shorter Breach Flaylock same All of these weapons, which are all of the breach weapons in the game, have ranges that are exactly the same as, or slightly shorter than their normal counter parts. The Rail Rifle has a long range because it is a Caldari weapon, not because it it a Breach weapon. Breach isnt long range. Breach is slow and hard hitting. That's it.
There is only racial parity in rifles, and the fact that the variant rifles aim to mimic other racial rifles only applies to rifles. How would your argument work for assault variants for all weapons? |
Fizzer XCIV
Heaven's Lost Property
Negative-Feedback
1270
|
Posted - 2014.12.03 08:35:00 -
[32] - Quote
Mexxx Dust-Slayer wrote:Fizzer XCIV wrote:Lynn Beck wrote:Why are people pushing this BS that the Breach AR is supposed to be CQC?
It takes after the Rail RIfle, thus it is (supposed to be) a lower DPS, higher damage per shot/range variant of the AR.
Thusly: Simple fact it does MORE DPS than a Assault Assault Rifle is grounds for IT'S ******* OP.
What if we made a Breach Combat Rifle, that had +10m range and +4 DPS, but traded -15% RoF for +18% damage?
what if the Breach Shotgun had a SHORTER range than the normal(if this is what you guys seriously think should happen)?
What if we made the Breach SG's damage so high that it did better DPS than a normal SG, but was "balanced" by it's low clipsize and rate of fire?
WHAT IF. We made the Breach MD do 700 damage?
Breach =\= CQC, it's Long Range/Lower DPS. Live with it, or push to swap Assault and Breach hipfire. Give me proof that breach weapons have a longer range than their normal counterparts and I'll not write this argument off as horseshit. Because so far, EVERY Breach variant has exactly the same, or really damn close to,(within a few meters, and some have shorter range)the same range as the normal weapon that they are a variant of. Every single one. No exception. Breach AR longer Breach MD same Breach ScP shorter Breach Shotgun same Breach Forgegun same Breach SMG shorter Breach Flaylock same All of these weapons, which are all of the breach weapons in the game, have ranges that are exactly the same as, or slightly shorter than their normal counter parts. The Rail Rifle has a long range because it is a Caldari weapon, not because it it a Breach weapon. Breach isnt long range. Breach is slow and hard hitting. That's it. There is only racial parity in rifles. How would your argument work for assault variants for all weapons?
There is also racial parity for pistols.
The Breach ScP has a range more comparable to the regular ScP than a Bolt Pistol.
Same with the Breach SMG and the Magsec.
Assault variants are all over the place right now. Some are full auto, some aren't. Some have shorter range, some have the same. I really don't know what to do with them, but Assault variant weapons need a review. Especially the AScP. It should probably become a machine pistol tbh.
Please, make my Opus pretty...
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Her Chosen
Grade No.2
90
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Posted - 2014.12.03 08:56:00 -
[33] - Quote
To CCP, underused means UP. Overused means OP.
They thought the bolt pistol was UP because it wasn't used, so they buffed it.
So, the HMG and SG are technically the most OP weapons in the game, let's nerf them based on subjective data. |
Apothecary Za'ki
Biomass Positive
2255
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Posted - 2014.12.03 09:44:00 -
[34] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Just because a weapon is used often does not mean it is necessarily overpowered. Neither are underused weapons underpowered.
A great example is the Laser Rifle. It is a very underused weapon and yet it is extremely powerful when it us used. Which makes it just barely balanced.
The BAR is another great example. It is said to be overpowered because it is used more than any of the other AR types. Yet, people using the Breach AR tend to get very similar K/D's to people using the Tactical Assault Rifle and Burst Assault Rifle. Yet both of those weapons are considered underpowered.
Do you see the logical fallacy in the argumentation of many of these nerf and buff posts that assume that overused is synonymous to overpowered? It is a fallacy that is terribly incorrect and cancerous for the community.
its actually proven that the burst AR was overlooked in the AR buffs a few weeks back and is in need of proper buffing.
but yes i agree.. BAR seem powerful but when against an armor brick it sucks harder then a dyson DC50 vacuum, same can not be said as such for the SCR due to its larger dmg per shot and stupidly high RPM.
now the CR is a bit like the bar..it blows vs shields but melts armor.. and with how many armor tankers there are of course its gonna look OP and more so due to low fitting which made it very scout friendly.
now the "false positive" of the BAR is because there is soo many scouts still running around and they die very easly to BAR and other anti shield weapons because their primary tank is more shield then armor (except amarr which is nearly full armor, gal is like 30-40% shield tanking..). so with large amount of scouts getting fragged by the BAR they ofc coem to whine en masse on the forums.. so ccp and cpm think its the concensus of every flavour of suit/player
#[[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 2 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]]
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
12709
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Posted - 2014.12.03 10:01:00 -
[35] - Quote
Her Chosen wrote:To CCP, underused means UP. Overused means OP.
They thought the bolt pistol was UP because it wasn't used, so they buffed it.
So, the HMG and SG are technically the most OP weapons in the game, let's nerf them based on subjective data.
That is patently untrue, and falls under spreading false information.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Her Chosen
Grade No.2
91
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Posted - 2014.12.03 10:09:00 -
[36] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Her Chosen wrote:To CCP, underused means UP. Overused means OP.
They thought the bolt pistol was UP because it wasn't used, so they buffed it.
So, the HMG and SG are technically the most OP weapons in the game, let's nerf them based on subjective data. That is patently untrue, and falls under spreading false information.
Those statements came information you've posted on these very forums. You claimed data suggested the bolt wasn't performing well because it didn't register many kills as its peers.
You posted what would be EvE type kill mails, showing the suits and guns responsible for most PC kills
FYI: all data is subjective to due circumstances and human variables.
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Fizzer XCIV
Heaven's Lost Property
Negative-Feedback
1270
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Posted - 2014.12.03 10:18:00 -
[37] - Quote
Apothecary Za'ki wrote:DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Just because a weapon is used often does not mean it is necessarily overpowered. Neither are underused weapons underpowered.
A great example is the Laser Rifle. It is a very underused weapon and yet it is extremely powerful when it us used. Which makes it just barely balanced.
The BAR is another great example. It is said to be overpowered because it is used more than any of the other AR types. Yet, people using the Breach AR tend to get very similar K/D's to people using the Tactical Assault Rifle and Burst Assault Rifle. Yet both of those weapons are considered underpowered.
Do you see the logical fallacy in the argumentation of many of these nerf and buff posts that assume that overused is synonymous to overpowered? It is a fallacy that is terribly incorrect and cancerous for the community. its actually proven that the burst AR was overlooked in the AR buffs a few weeks back and is in need of proper buffing. but yes i agree.. BAR seem powerful but when against an armor brick it sucks harder then a dyson DC50 vacuum, same can not be said as such for the SCR due to its larger dmg per shot and stupidly high RPM. now the CR is a bit like the bar..it blows vs shields but melts armor.. and with how many armor tankers there are of course its gonna look OP and more so due to low fitting which made it very scout friendly. now the "false positive" of the BAR is because there is soo many scouts still running around and they die very easly to BAR and other anti shield weapons because their primary tank is more shield then armor (except amarr which is nearly full armor, gal is like 30-40% shield tanking..). so with large amount of scouts getting fragged by the BAR they ofc coem to whine en masse on the forums.. so ccp and cpm think its the concensus of every flavour of suit/player
Dear God I wish I could reblock you, but the forum gods are punishing me for some unknown sin.
I've been reading a whole two sentences into your **** posts before I realize how **** they are. I need to start looking at names before I read, and not afterwords.
Please, make my Opus pretty...
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
13508
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Posted - 2014.12.03 10:38:00 -
[38] - Quote
Her Chosen wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Her Chosen wrote:To CCP, underused means UP. Overused means OP.
They thought the bolt pistol was UP because it wasn't used, so they buffed it.
So, the HMG and SG are technically the most OP weapons in the game, let's nerf them based on subjective data. That is patently untrue, and falls under spreading false information. Those statements came information you've posted on these very forums. You claimed data suggested the bolt wasn't performing well because it didn't register many kills as its peers. You posted what would be EvE type kill mails, showing the suits and guns responsible for most PC kills FYI: all data is subjective to due circumstances and human variables.
Underuse or overuse is just a sign that something wrong, it's the symptom.
You then have to go in there and figure out WHAT is wrong, why it's overused or underused.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
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DeadlyAztec11
Ostrakon Agency
6273
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Posted - 2014.12.03 10:41:00 -
[39] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Her Chosen wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Her Chosen wrote:To CCP, underused means UP. Overused means OP.
They thought the bolt pistol was UP because it wasn't used, so they buffed it.
So, the HMG and SG are technically the most OP weapons in the game, let's nerf them based on subjective data. That is patently untrue, and falls under spreading false information. Those statements came information you've posted on these very forums. You claimed data suggested the bolt wasn't performing well because it didn't register many kills as its peers. You posted what would be EvE type kill mails, showing the suits and guns responsible for most PC kills FYI: all data is subjective to due circumstances and human variables. Underuse or overuse is just a sign that something wrong, it's the symptom. You then have to go in there and figure out WHAT is wrong, why it's overused or underused.
Not always. Some niche weapons like the Flaylock, Plasma Cannon, MD and Laser Rifle will always be underused because of their situational nature.
Put your flags up in the sky.
And wave them side to side.
Show the world where you're from.
Show the world we are one.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
5607
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Posted - 2014.12.03 10:46:00 -
[40] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Her Chosen wrote:To CCP, underused means UP. Overused means OP.
They thought the bolt pistol was UP because it wasn't used, so they buffed it.
So, the HMG and SG are technically the most OP weapons in the game, let's nerf them based on subjective data. That is patently untrue, and falls under spreading false information.
Haven't we tread this ground already?
Has the tinfoil supply gotten low again? I have a stockpile.
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
VP Gaming Alliance
723
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Posted - 2014.12.03 10:56:00 -
[41] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Her Chosen wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Her Chosen wrote:To CCP, underused means UP. Overused means OP.
They thought the bolt pistol was UP because it wasn't used, so they buffed it.
So, the HMG and SG are technically the most OP weapons in the game, let's nerf them based on subjective data. That is patently untrue, and falls under spreading false information. Those statements came information you've posted on these very forums. You claimed data suggested the bolt wasn't performing well because it didn't register many kills as its peers. You posted what would be EvE type kill mails, showing the suits and guns responsible for most PC kills FYI: all data is subjective to due circumstances and human variables. Underuse or overuse is just a sign that something wrong, it's the symptom. You then have to go in there and figure out WHAT is wrong, why it's overused or underused.
im still waiting for new RR data that says Rattati nerfs brought its usage down.
and im still waiting for him to define what the actual problem with RR was that made it so popular in the first... according to his data.
someone get him in here for an inquiry... i have questions and he hasnt given any answers |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
VP Gaming Alliance
723
|
Posted - 2014.12.03 11:15:00 -
[42] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Her Chosen wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Her Chosen wrote:To CCP, underused means UP. Overused means OP.
They thought the bolt pistol was UP because it wasn't used, so they buffed it.
So, the HMG and SG are technically the most OP weapons in the game, let's nerf them based on subjective data. That is patently untrue, and falls under spreading false information. Those statements came information you've posted on these very forums. You claimed data suggested the bolt wasn't performing well because it didn't register many kills as its peers. You posted what would be EvE type kill mails, showing the suits and guns responsible for most PC kills FYI: all data is subjective to due circumstances and human variables. Underuse or overuse is just a sign that something wrong, it's the symptom. You then have to go in there and figure out WHAT is wrong, why it's overused or underused.
why didnt we do that with the RR? |
sabre prime
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
915
|
Posted - 2014.12.03 11:31:00 -
[43] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Her Chosen wrote:To CCP, underused means UP. Overused means OP.
They thought the bolt pistol was UP because it wasn't used, so they buffed it.
So, the HMG and SG are technically the most OP weapons in the game, let's nerf them based on subjective data. That is patently untrue, and falls under spreading false information.
The bolt pistol is a very good example though. When it was first released it was almost perfectly balanced; there was nothing wrong with it. But a subjective interpretation of it's usage statistics made it 'under powered' according to CCP. The weapon has since gone through a buff and nerf cycle for no reason, which has altered it's damage profile, it's charge time and generally changed the pistols mechanics.
The slow blade penetrates the shield.
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
5281
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Posted - 2014.12.03 12:11:00 -
[44] - Quote
The bolt pistol has never had it's damage profile changed; it has always been hybrid - rail.
My advice to you, playa...
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
3006
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Posted - 2014.12.03 12:12:00 -
[45] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Her Chosen wrote:To CCP, underused means UP. Overused means OP.
They thought the bolt pistol was UP because it wasn't used, so they buffed it.
So, the HMG and SG are technically the most OP weapons in the game, let's nerf them based on subjective data. That is patently untrue, and falls under spreading false information.
You are entirely correct
http://dust.thang.dk/market_tryhardinator.php
"Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms.
FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ
I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.
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Nirwanda Vaughns
1007
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Posted - 2014.12.03 12:19:00 -
[46] - Quote
in its current form the breach is slightly 'broken' that being that the main thing thats wrong with it is that the rnage of it is perhaps a bit too far for a CQC weapon. if the BAR range dropped to about 40m-5m base it'd be more balanced, the RR got a bit of a screwing over as well with its nerfs as it only needed hipfire kick increased to reduce CQC usage whereas with the double nerf of longer charge up and increased overall kick its not as great as it perhaps should be. CCP have a tendency with dust to either over buff or over nerf something instead of small steps so its one extreme to the other.
changes i'd say are.
BAR - drop range down to 40m-50m, perhaps drop clip size to 30
RR - reduce charge up and scoped kick back to normal but have hip fire kick more inline with an unskilled TAC rifle - perhaps seeign as gal/cal are opposites change calassault skilll to 5% reduction to scoped dispertion and kick of Hybrid Rail light/sidearm (as opposed to the gallente hipfire bonus)
LR - its far too damaging in closer range than it used to be, i had my heavy killed by a guy at 6m other day and it appeared to be doing high damage. originally the LR had a range of about 40-100m and the damage up close being really poor due to the focusing crystal used in the rifle. this made it unique and fill a role of mid range supression weapon leaving ScR as close to mid ranges. also i think damage profile should be changed to +/- 505 (shield/armour) as for a weapon thats supposed to be weak against armour it chews through it once the multiplier builds up that the armour resistences are pretty much negated
CR - its supposed to be mid range precision type of weapon, reduce scoped kick/dispersion slightly
ACR - the dispersion changes last hotfix have made it about as accurate as a HMG in CQC, needs bringing back to how it was especially after the damage profile vs shields was altered too. there are times when my six kin cant even break a C-I's shields at 10-20m hip fire engagements.
HMG - these need more refining as there isn't really any point is choosing anything other than the standard atm. with the range being increased ot about 50m its pretty much left the assault with no benefit. the roles of each HMG need to be more defined.
Never argue with an idiot. they bring you down to their level and beat you through experience
proud C-II bpo owner
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Nothing Certain
Bioshock Rejects
1330
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Posted - 2014.12.03 13:16:00 -
[47] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Her Chosen wrote:To CCP, underused means UP. Overused means OP.
They thought the bolt pistol was UP because it wasn't used, so they buffed it.
So, the HMG and SG are technically the most OP weapons in the game, let's nerf them based on subjective data. That is patently untrue, and falls under spreading false information.
C'mon Rattati you could at least write a long explanation about how rifles are balanced and what data is used. Oh, you did? Next time use smaller words.
Because, that's why.
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sabre prime
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
915
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Posted - 2014.12.03 13:21:00 -
[48] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:The bolt pistol has never had it's damage profile changed; it has always been hybrid - rail.
OK, I mean't damage, not damage profile.
The slow blade penetrates the shield.
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Vitantur Nothus
Nos Nothi
908
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Posted - 2014.12.03 13:22:00 -
[49] - Quote
Her Chosen wrote:[
FYI: all data is subjective to due circumstances and human variables.
Data is objective. Translation of data is subjective. |
sabre prime
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
915
|
Posted - 2014.12.03 13:25:00 -
[50] - Quote
Vitantur Nothus wrote:Her Chosen wrote:[
FYI: all data is subjective to due circumstances and human variables.
Data is objective. Translation of data is subjective.
Interpretation of data.
The slow blade penetrates the shield.
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Vitantur Nothus
Nos Nothi
908
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Posted - 2014.12.03 13:33:00 -
[51] - Quote
sabre prime wrote:Vitantur Nothus wrote:Her Chosen wrote:[
FYI: all data is subjective to due circumstances and human variables.
Data is objective. Translation of data is subjective. Interpretation of data.
You are correct. Fixed.
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Slave of MORTE
Eyniletti Rangers
Minmatar Republic
119
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Posted - 2014.12.03 13:38:00 -
[52] - Quote
Imp Smash wrote:DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Just because a weapon is used often does not mean it is necessarily overpowered. Neither are underused weapons underpowered.
A great example is the Laser Rifle. It is a very underused weapon and yet it is extremely powerful when it us used. Which makes it just barely balanced.
The BAR is another great example. It is said to be overpowered because it is used more than any of the other AR types. Yet, people using the Breach AR tend to get very similar K/D's to people using the Tactical Assault Rifle and Burst Assault Rifle. Yet both of those weapons are considered underpowered.
Do you see the logical fallacy in the argumentation of many of these nerf and buff posts that assume that overused is synonymous to overpowered? It is a fallacy that is terribly incorrect and cancerous for the community. The laser rifle was a bad analogy though. Because the laser rifle is, as you said, powerful, it also has a lot of weaknesses. It is in fact the worst rifle at MOST ranges. It is the least flexible rifle as well. So even though it is quite dangerous at it's very limited range which can only be applied in very limited situations with very specific setups against very specific enemies, it has plenty of drawbacks. A lot of the overused OP weapons are OP not because they are powerful in a given situation, but because they are powerful in all situations. One of the things about Dust is that gun classes all have a range and enemy type at which it is weak. Some of the so called 'OP' guns don't really have a weakness. At their 'weak' area they are just 'good.' You are right that overused doesn't always mean overpowered. But overpowered gets used a lot...
Capable of killing from 35m-100 yes it lack so much versatility clearly ccp needs to buff me
Yet another slave of Mortedeamor
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Slave of MORTE
Eyniletti Rangers
Minmatar Republic
120
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Posted - 2014.12.03 13:46:00 -
[53] - Quote
Slave of MORTE wrote:Imp Smash wrote:DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Just because a weapon is used often does not mean it is necessarily overpowered. Neither are underused weapons underpowered.
A great example is the Laser Rifle. It is a very underused weapon and yet it is extremely powerful when it us used. Which makes it just barely balanced.
The BAR is another great example. It is said to be overpowered because it is used more than any of the other AR types. Yet, people using the Breach AR tend to get very similar K/D's to people using the Tactical Assault Rifle and Burst Assault Rifle. Yet both of those weapons are considered underpowered.
Do you see the logical fallacy in the argumentation of many of these nerf and buff posts that assume that overused is synonymous to overpowered? It is a fallacy that is terribly incorrect and cancerous for the community. The laser rifle was a bad analogy though. Because the laser rifle is, as you said, powerful, it also has a lot of weaknesses. It is in fact the worst rifle at MOST ranges. It is the least flexible rifle as well. So even though it is quite dangerous at it's very limited range which can only be applied in very limited situations with very specific setups against very specific enemies, it has plenty of drawbacks. A lot of the overused OP weapons are OP not because they are powerful in a given situation, but because they are powerful in all situations. One of the things about Dust is that gun classes all have a range and enemy type at which it is weak. Some of the so called 'OP' guns don't really have a weakness. At their 'weak' area they are just 'good.' You are right that overused doesn't always mean overpowered. But overpowered gets used a lot... Capable of killing from 35m-100 yes it lack so much versatility clearly ccp needs to buff me
Please buff me ratatti..Please you've buffed my lr 3 times in a row now I'm using it in maps where I've never used it before..but not everyone is spamming it it's still a rare sight clearly it needs MOAR POWER
Yet another slave of Mortedeamor
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Meeko Fent
Kirkinen Risk Control
Caldari State
2178
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Posted - 2014.12.03 13:58:00 -
[54] - Quote
Vitantur Nothus wrote:Her Chosen wrote:[
FYI: all data is subjective to due circumstances and human variables.
Data is objective. Translation of data is subjective.
Data is objective. The cause of that data is subjective.
A great many things affect the performance of a gun, the range it's used at, how good the player is at playing, the dropsuit fitted. KD is a very hard stat to justify nerf hammering something. You can argue w/ the weapon stats that corroborate the KD boost, or bring up other points on theory of why the gun is so good, but just stating KD and saying something is wrong, is wrong. It excludes all other poddibilities of WHY the gun has a higher KD and tries to bend the facts to fit an opinion it may not solely agree w/.
tl;dr, Usage Data is pointless for nerfing unless you can say that something about the weapon that is objectively better then another weapon is causing the usage spike. And manage to successfully argue that it is an unfair advantage over other weapons that make them worth les.
I Live for Tears
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Bright Steel
Horizons' Edge
Proficiency V.
449
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Posted - 2014.12.03 14:29:00 -
[55] - Quote
Joseph Ridgeson wrote:When it first comes to things like "people using the BAR get similar K/D ratios as those using different Assault Rifles", I can only ask "how do you know this?" It isn't a number that players can easily see. Eyeballing it in games is also not a very efficient manner as Confirmation Bias starts to kick in. I mean no insult; I am genuinely curious how you have come to this statement.
Stating "Overused Gëá Overpowered" by attempting to show "Underused Gëá Underpowered" with the Laser Rifle doesn't work as well as you would think. The Laser Rifle has a crippling weakness in that it is nearly worthless at close range. At long range it is devastating but so is the Scrambler and Rail Rifle and they are not as crippled at close range. The Laser Rifle is not balanced on it being rarely used; it is balanced by having that weakness. This means the only thing you have been able to show is that the Laser Rifle is a balanced weapon despite not being very used and you are attempting to leverage that into a more commonly used weapon is just as balanced. If you were attempting to say "X isn't used a lot because it is OP because Y is underused and it is OP", it doesn't work well because no one would argue that the Laser Rifle is overpowered.
Saying "this thing is rarely used but when it is used it is really powerful, which makes it barely balanced" is implying that if it were used all the time it would be overpowered. I doubt it greatly. You then move to say "just because the BAR is popular doesn't mean it is overpowered" which I do not believe follows in your argument. You attempt to prove Overused Gëá Overpowered by starting with Underused Gëá Underpowered but you choose a weapon that not many people would question as overpowered. It doesn't work very well.
After the Rail Rifle's kick was nerfed but really when the charge was hit, what weapon did you notice become a lot more popular? I can certainly say I did not see nearly as many BAR as I did before that change happened. The term for a weapon or strategy that might be too powerful but has not been wildly discussed before is Sleeper OP. I think it could be argued that the BAR was Sleeper OP. Whether or not it is overpowered is another thing but I still maintain that your argument, at least how it is currently constructed and how I understand it to be, doesn't stand up as well as it needs to.
What is this???? Is it "logic" and "reasoning" supporting a view that was presented in a respectful manner????
What is this forum coming to?????
+1 by the way
So mad I could eat a chimichanga, swallow a marble, chug a quafe, bend over, fart, and drop an amarian from 100 meters..
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Leadfoot10
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
2407
|
Posted - 2014.12.03 14:39:00 -
[56] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:The BAR is another great example. It is said to be overpowered because it is used more than any of the other AR types. Yet, people using the Breach AR tend to get very similar K/D's to people using the Tactical Assault Rifle and Burst Assault Rifle. Yet both of those weapons are considered underpowered.
Who says the BAR has a KDR similar to the TAR or BuAR?
I don't know that we've seen ANY data since the weapon was buffed (and other weapons are nerfed).
So, of course you're correct that overpowered != overused, but we don't know just what the KDR is of the BAR so it's a little early to jump to that conclusion with respect to the BAR.
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Mahal Daj
Mahal Tactical Enterprises
104
|
Posted - 2014.12.03 15:34:00 -
[57] - Quote
The game is built on waves-of-opportunity... so the right weapon at the right time trumps. The Breach-AR is powerful because so many people wander into its optimal range looking the wrong way.
Good post OP
See my Post on Crashes: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2413361#post2413361
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sabre prime
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
916
|
Posted - 2014.12.03 16:02:00 -
[58] - Quote
Vitantur Nothus wrote:Her Chosen wrote:[
FYI: all data is subjective to due circumstances and human variables.
Data is objective. Translation Interpretation of data is subjective.
Sorry to go off topic; but how did you add the strikethrough line?
EDIT: looking at your quote, it seems to be a [ s ]...[ /s ] (without the spaces). Wish that was listed in the BBCode instructions.
The slow blade penetrates the shield.
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Kayla Michael
Tactical Logistics and Cargo
Northern Associates.
36
|
Posted - 2014.12.03 16:18:00 -
[59] - Quote
Breach is overpowered, come at me bro.
Had to correct a typo, tucking fypos. `~` |
Dust User
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
1167
|
Posted - 2014.12.03 16:20:00 -
[60] - Quote
Her Chosen wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Her Chosen wrote:To CCP, underused means UP. Overused means OP.
They thought the bolt pistol was UP because it wasn't used, so they buffed it.
So, the HMG and SG are technically the most OP weapons in the game, let's nerf them based on subjective data. That is patently untrue, and falls under spreading false information. Those statements came information you've posted on these very forums. You claimed data suggested the bolt wasn't performing well because it didn't register many kills as its peers. You posted what would be EvE type kill mails, showing the suits and guns responsible for most PC kills FYI: all data is subjective to due circumstances and human variables.
Your tears are even better in GD.
gg |
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
5285
|
Posted - 2014.12.03 16:22:00 -
[61] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Yet, people using the Breach AR tend to get very similar K/D's to people using the Tactical Assault Rifle and Burst Assault Rifle. Where are you getting this information? Has CCP posted the average K/D's for the AR and it's variants somewhere that I missed?
Or are you using your purely anecdotal experiences that amount to a tiny fraction of the games played per day in Dust 514?
My advice to you, playa...
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Vell0cet
Company of Marcher Lords
Amarr Empire
2632
|
Posted - 2014.12.03 16:22:00 -
[62] - Quote
Over/underused is a red flag. It means, we should look at those weapons/suits/vehicles/turrets etc and figure out why they're over/underused. It could be they're OP/UP or it could be (as in the case of the LR--which is in a great place now) that they're niche weapons or have unique mechanics that require high skill but are working well for those who have mastered it (e.g. Plasma Cannon) and are great at what they do. It's a tool for identifying POTENTIAL problems but nowhere close to being the final arbiter in balance. I think CCP Rattati has been very clear about this approach, and it's a good one.
Best PvE idea ever!
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
4794
|
Posted - 2014.12.03 16:36:00 -
[63] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:Cat Merc wrote:
Underuse or overuse is just a sign that something wrong, it's the symptom.
You then have to go in there and figure out WHAT is wrong, why it's overused or underused.
why didnt we do that with the RR?
Dude, it was OP, it got nerfed, get over it. Consider these definite facts:
- It accounted for over 1/2 of all rifle kills, with as good or better a K/D as all other rifles
- It's a long range weapon
There is no disputing those two things, nor are they open to interpretation.
Now, ask yourself, are most battles in Dust fought at long range? Do most kills occur at long range?
I don't have hard data on that (CCP probably does), but based on a lot of the map sockets, I'd say no, MOST kills do not occur at long range.
So we have 1/4 of rifles accounting for 1/2 of kills in an environment in which most kills are not in it's primary range. That is a definite imbalance of some kind. The logical conclusion is that it is performing too well outside of it's intended function and overlapping with others.
In addition, the very fact that it was used by the majority should have resulted in a decrement in performance as less-skilled players adopted it. There is no way that only the "good" players were using it (unlike, say, the LR, where only people who are skilled with it use it frequently) and therefore the K/D remained the same. No, all the scrubs were adopting it as well, and yet they did not drag down the overall numbers. Again, that's a sign of a rifle that is performing better than the others.
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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Evolution-7
The Rainbow Effect
681
|
Posted - 2014.12.03 18:05:00 -
[64] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Just because a weapon is used often does not mean it is necessarily overpowered. Neither are underused weapons underpowered.
A great example is the Laser Rifle. It is a very underused weapon and yet it is extremely powerful when it us used. Which makes it just barely balanced.
The BAR is another great example. It is said to be overpowered because it is used more than any of the other AR types. Yet, people using the Breach AR tend to get very similar K/D's to people using the Tactical Assault Rifle and Burst Assault Rifle. Yet both of those weapons are considered underpowered.
Do you see the logical fallacy in the argumentation of many of these nerf and buff posts that assume that overused is synonymous to overpowered? It is a fallacy that is terribly incorrect and cancerous for the community.
Well what can you say man, this has plagued the game since may 6 2013 and will continue to do so.
Replication to Uprising 1.4. Good times.
PSN: AdmiralEvo
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Duke Noobiam
The Dukes of Death
275
|
Posted - 2014.12.03 18:26:00 -
[65] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Just because a weapon is used often does not mean it is necessarily overpowered. Neither are underused weapons underpowered.
A great example is the Laser Rifle. It is a very underused weapon and yet it is extremely powerful when it us used. Which makes it just barely balanced.
The BAR is another great example. It is said to be overpowered because it is used more than any of the other AR types. Yet, people using the Breach AR tend to get very similar K/D's to people using the Tactical Assault Rifle and Burst Assault Rifle. Yet both of those weapons are considered underpowered.
Do you see the logical fallacy in the argumentation of many of these nerf and buff posts that assume that overused is synonymous to overpowered? It is a fallacy that is terribly incorrect and cancerous for the community.
There's a subset of the community that continuously tries to exploit the current meta of the game to extract every possible advantage they can get.
These FOTM chasers are what make OP weapons be used in greater numbers than average or UP weapons.
BAR is OP, sorry if you were using it prior to the recent buff but thems are the facts.
BPO dropsuits owned:
Sever M-1 logi, Quafe M-1 assault, Quafe M-1 scout, Raven C-1 assault, Dragonfly G-1 scout
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DeadlyAztec11
Ostrakon Agency
6286
|
Posted - 2014.12.03 22:14:00 -
[66] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Yet, people using the Breach AR tend to get very similar K/D's to people using the Tactical Assault Rifle and Burst Assault Rifle. Where are you getting this information? Has CCP posted the average K/D's for the AR and it's variants somewhere that I missed? Or are you using your purely anecdotal experiences that amount to a tiny fraction of the games played per day in Dust 514? They actually did. I didn't believe it either, but a gut linked me.
Put your flags up in the sky.
And wave them side to side.
Show the world where you're from.
Show the world we are one.
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DeadlyAztec11
Ostrakon Agency
6286
|
Posted - 2014.12.03 22:17:00 -
[67] - Quote
Duke Noobiam wrote:DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Just because a weapon is used often does not mean it is necessarily overpowered. Neither are underused weapons underpowered.
A great example is the Laser Rifle. It is a very underused weapon and yet it is extremely powerful when it us used. Which makes it just barely balanced.
The BAR is another great example. It is said to be overpowered because it is used more than any of the other AR types. Yet, people using the Breach AR tend to get very similar K/D's to people using the Tactical Assault Rifle and Burst Assault Rifle. Yet both of those weapons are considered underpowered.
Do you see the logical fallacy in the argumentation of many of these nerf and buff posts that assume that overused is synonymous to overpowered? It is a fallacy that is terribly incorrect and cancerous for the community. There's a subset of the community that continuously tries to exploit the current meta of the game to extract every possible advantage they can get. These FOTM chasers are what make OP weapons be used in greater numbers than average or UP weapons. BAR is OP, sorry if you were using it prior to the recent buff but thems are the facts.
Let's say for the sake of argument that you're right, and that the BAR is OP and so it gets nerfed. What is the new OP weapon?
There's always an overused weapon and the terrible part about that factis that as soon as one weapon is nerfed a the next most used weapon is nerfed. That's no way to balance because it ensures that there will always be something that is seen as being OP.
Put your flags up in the sky.
And wave them side to side.
Show the world where you're from.
Show the world we are one.
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Blueprint For Murder
Storm Wind Strikeforce
Caldari State
428
|
Posted - 2014.12.03 23:01:00 -
[68] - Quote
The rail rifle is just as op as it ever was they nerfed the nerf lol as soon as the sheep catch on they will be right back to it most have already returned.
21 day fast 12/1/14 Life-$
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Pocket Rocket Girl
Psygod9
104
|
Posted - 2014.12.03 23:12:00 -
[69] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:LUGMOS wrote:Actually, there is more at play here.
Let's take your example of the laser rifle. If it were used more, it would not be overpowered. Why? Because it takes more "skill" to use and it is a niche weapon. It cannot kill in close range effectively and will be outperformed vastly by close range weapons in CQC, so it has a weakness.
Let's compare it to the BAR. It takes about the same skill "skill" to use, seeing that they both have ridiculously accurate hipfire, no kick, and laser accurate. However, the Breach AR has more range than its regular variant, but doesn't do as well at range. Like the laser rifle, it has the potential to kill multiple people in one clip. However, it can disengage and then reengage, not like the laser rifle, where it has to be in one sitting. The laser rifle is also held back by its relatively low ammo reserves, while the breach is not. Also, the breach can cover multiple ranges, both close and medium, equally effectively, while the laser rifle does not.
There is also a discrepancy in the meaning of breach and this weapon's range. Typical breaches occur in CQC range, where it should absolutely dominate. However, for some odd reason, it does not lose range compared to its regular variant. Just another thought.
So in conclusion, (relative) ease of use coupled with adaptibility to different situations, make things OP, and the ease of use part leads to more people using it. So typically, a weapon being overused tends to mean it's OP, or at least marginally better at everything. Your reasoning is that the Laser Rifle is innefective in CQC, therefore the BAR is a superior weapon. Yet the Laser Rifle dominates medium range and no other weapon can contest it in its range. Also it even extends its force into long range,edging on the effectiveness of the Rail Rifle and Sniper Rifle. The Laser Rifle is just barely not out of step. Yet it is still underused.
Umm u have to disagree with that a med range the rail and CBR still out dps and are more accurate at longe range it effectivemess drops down to around 28%, the rail and CBR can apply full damage while non-ADS and ADS where as the lazer has to be pin point which can be broken by any one strafing
The Little Girl with the HMG
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Meeko Fent
Kirkinen Risk Control
Caldari State
2185
|
Posted - 2014.12.03 23:30:00 -
[70] - Quote
Not being mean, just suggesting however...
If the BAR is so drastically OP, then WHAT can you see being done to fix it?
You all want to shout "OP", but have nothing to back up the claims of OPedness. What is WRONG with the BAR?
Really, not a soul has suggested any fix to the issue besides "nerf"
And we all know what happens when CCP just generically "Nerfs" a thing.
*looks at the BARs Grandpa*
He knows.
Some have said that the range should be dropped, but nobody else has decided "hey, lets advocate that!". You all are here, screeching Nerf, with no real thing you specifically want batted.
As a last not, Optimal should be dropped to 40-50, and Max should be chopped to 100.
I doubt it will do anything, but, It is a discrepancy in the stats that the Breach, which historically has been CQC has the same range as the Common AR.
I Live for Tears
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Mex-0
189
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Posted - 2014.12.03 23:42:00 -
[71] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Just because a weapon is used often does not mean it is necessarily overpowered. Neither are underused weapons underpowered.
A great example is the Laser Rifle. It is a very underused weapon and yet it is extremely powerful when it us used. Which makes it just barely balanced.
The BAR is another great example. It is said to be overpowered because it is used more than any of the other AR types. Yet, people using the Breach AR tend to get very similar K/D's to people using the Tactical Assault Rifle and Burst Assault Rifle. Yet both of those weapons are considered underpowered.
Do you see the logical fallacy in the argumentation of many of these nerf and buff posts that assume that overused is synonymous to overpowered? It is a fallacy that is terribly incorrect and cancerous for the community.
Woot woot that's me! Burst and Tac all the way!
Meh, I give up on FW.
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DeadlyAztec11
Ostrakon Agency
6289
|
Posted - 2014.12.04 00:23:00 -
[72] - Quote
Mex-0 wrote:DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Just because a weapon is used often does not mean it is necessarily overpowered. Neither are underused weapons underpowered.
A great example is the Laser Rifle. It is a very underused weapon and yet it is extremely powerful when it us used. Which makes it just barely balanced.
The BAR is another great example. It is said to be overpowered because it is used more than any of the other AR types. Yet, people using the Breach AR tend to get very similar K/D's to people using the Tactical Assault Rifle and Burst Assault Rifle. Yet both of those weapons are considered underpowered.
Do you see the logical fallacy in the argumentation of many of these nerf and buff posts that assume that overused is synonymous to overpowered? It is a fallacy that is terribly incorrect and cancerous for the community. Woot woot that's me! Burst and Tac all the way!
Bravo.
Put your flags up in the sky.
And wave them side to side.
Show the world where you're from.
Show the world we are one.
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Imp Smash
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
448
|
Posted - 2014.12.04 05:11:00 -
[73] - Quote
Slave of MORTE wrote:Slave of MORTE wrote:Imp Smash wrote:DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Just because a weapon is used often does not mean it is necessarily overpowered. Neither are underused weapons underpowered.
A great example is the Laser Rifle. It is a very underused weapon and yet it is extremely powerful when it us used. Which makes it just barely balanced.
The BAR is another great example. It is said to be overpowered because it is used more than any of the other AR types. Yet, people using the Breach AR tend to get very similar K/D's to people using the Tactical Assault Rifle and Burst Assault Rifle. Yet both of those weapons are considered underpowered.
Do you see the logical fallacy in the argumentation of many of these nerf and buff posts that assume that overused is synonymous to overpowered? It is a fallacy that is terribly incorrect and cancerous for the community. The laser rifle was a bad analogy though. Because the laser rifle is, as you said, powerful, it also has a lot of weaknesses. It is in fact the worst rifle at MOST ranges. It is the least flexible rifle as well. So even though it is quite dangerous at it's very limited range which can only be applied in very limited situations with very specific setups against very specific enemies, it has plenty of drawbacks. A lot of the overused OP weapons are OP not because they are powerful in a given situation, but because they are powerful in all situations. One of the things about Dust is that gun classes all have a range and enemy type at which it is weak. Some of the so called 'OP' guns don't really have a weakness. At their 'weak' area they are just 'good.' You are right that overused doesn't always mean overpowered. But overpowered gets used a lot... Capable of killing from 35m-100 yes it lack so much versatility clearly ccp needs to buff me Please buff me ratatti..Please you've buffed my lr 3 times in a row now I'm using it in maps where I've never used it before..but not everyone is spamming it it's still a rare sight clearly it needs MOAR POWER
Er...no.
Also: Responding to yourself is a little creepy |
Alena Ventrallis
Vengeance Unbound
2243
|
Posted - 2014.12.04 05:15:00 -
[74] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Her Chosen wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Her Chosen wrote:To CCP, underused means UP. Overused means OP.
They thought the bolt pistol was UP because it wasn't used, so they buffed it.
So, the HMG and SG are technically the most OP weapons in the game, let's nerf them based on subjective data. That is patently untrue, and falls under spreading false information. Those statements came information you've posted on these very forums. You claimed data suggested the bolt wasn't performing well because it didn't register many kills as its peers. You posted what would be EvE type kill mails, showing the suits and guns responsible for most PC kills FYI: all data is subjective to due circumstances and human variables. Underuse or overuse is just a sign that something wrong, it's the symptom. You then have to go in there and figure out WHAT is wrong, why it's overused or underused. im still waiting for new RR data that says Rattati nerfs brought its usage down. and im still waiting for him to define what the actual problem with RR was that made it so popular in the first... according to his data. someone get him in here for an inquiry... i have questions and he hasnt given any answers
RR was popular because when it first came out, the thing could kill a hevay in about 1.5 seconds, a medium in under 1 second, and scouts were vaporized instantly. So, people dumped massive SP into the thing, and even after a few nerfs (needed though they were) they had all that SP in it (this was before respecs were a thing) and so continued to use it. Plus, since armor is still the current meta, is it any wonder an armor damaging weapon is one of the popular options?
Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
3506
|
Posted - 2014.12.04 05:29:00 -
[75] - Quote
I hear you, OP.....the term, "overpowered (OP)" should be applied when a gun has all the benefits and no consequences or counters. And is extremely powerful.
> Check RND out here
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DeadlyAztec11
Ostrakon Agency
6293
|
Posted - 2014.12.04 16:32:00 -
[76] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:I hear you, OP.....the term, "overpowered (OP)" should be applied when a gun has all the benefits and no consequences or counters. And is extremely powerful.
Overpowered just means that an object has more power than it should.
Put your flags up in the sky.
And wave them side to side.
Show the world where you're from.
Show the world we are one.
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TYCHUS MAXWELL
The Fun Police
658
|
Posted - 2014.12.04 21:11:00 -
[77] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Just because a weapon is used often does not mean it is necessarily overpowered. Neither are underused weapons underpowered.
A great example is the Laser Rifle. It is a very underused weapon and yet it is extremely powerful when it us used. Which makes it just barely balanced.
The BAR is another great example. It is said to be overpowered because it is used more than any of the other AR types. Yet, people using the Breach AR tend to get very similar K/D's to people using the Tactical Assault Rifle and Burst Assault Rifle. Yet both of those weapons are considered underpowered.
Do you see the logical fallacy in the argumentation of many of these nerf and buff posts that assume that overused is synonymous to overpowered? It is a fallacy that is terribly incorrect and cancerous for the community. I'm sorry friend but you are simply wrong and here's why: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_dominanceNext you will tell me that Terran wasn't OP when SC2 hit... I know we all like to pretend everyone but ourselves in these games are all aspies but we really aren't. I didn't even understand half of what you were referencing. Though, from what I did gather I have managed a rebuttal: Strategy Gëá Weapon Check & mate. Also, by your choosing of that argument I see that you have missed the conclusion of my original plea.
Clearly you didn't understand strategic dominance if your rebuttal made sense to you, but as you said you didn't comprehend any of it. I'm guessing you don't know what the term strategy means. I'll give you a hint it's not a bunch of old men sitting around a room looking at a map like in the movies. Nor is it a board game, that would be Stratego you were thinking of. To simplify though why your rebuttal was foolish hopefully in lame enough terms:
The meta of this game revolves around effective strategies. How a weapon performs will be a part of the consideration of strategic dominance in the meta game. |
Funkmaster Whale
Whale Pod
2525
|
Posted - 2014.12.04 22:12:00 -
[78] - Quote
I agree with OP in cases like PC where you see a ton of Sentinel spam thus leading to Boundless HMG topping kills. In cases like that, the reason you see such saturated use of a weapon is due to the circumstances of PC so heavily relying on objectives, and naturally Sentinels are the best fitted to defend. In normal game modes people couldn't care less about winning by holding objectives since ISK rewards are based off WP counts and there are far more effective methods to gain WP than holding objectives.
In the case of the BAR though it is pretty evident that it's too powerful. While people may claim that on average people get similar K/Ds compared to other rifles, the fact remains that the current iteration of the BAR feels damn near as close to the Uprising 1.0 Duvolle TAC as any weapon before, which for those who don't remember or weren't there is probably the most OP weapon we've ever had in this game.
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sir RAVEN WING
Horizons' Edge
Proficiency V.
1147
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 01:11:00 -
[79] - Quote
Blueprint For Murder wrote:There are different types of balance ideally every weapon would be used equally because this would create a great variety in game play. Then there is balance as in strength of a weapon.
Ease of use is something that you seem to miss OP the LR is not very easy to use at first with its extra loose movement and precision. All of the ARs are easy to use, but worthless at range,The RR and CR are very easy to use and have the strongest profiles and he HMG is very easy to use and very strong with in its ranges.
Now there are meant to be mechanics to balance the RR and HMG, but for what every reason these weapons have been buffed well beyond the usefulness of these mechanics. As for the CR it was brought to equality with the other rifles with no balancing mechanics which was just a failure on the devs part.
I thought you were going to say the RR was OP...
It isn't.
@Aztec
I will say that the BrAR isn't as OP as it seems. I've tried using it and I can't get a single kill unless within 55m and then it seems to kill everything extremely fast... this is why I will stick with an ARR or an RR.
I also use the regular AR and I see nothing too bad with it.
RPG!. The Ultimate Forum Passing-Time MetaGame!
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Imp Smash
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
453
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 01:32:00 -
[80] - Quote
Funkmaster Whale wrote: While people may claim that on average people get similar K/Ds compared to other rifles, the fact remains that the current iteration of the BAR feels damn near as close to the Uprising 1.0 Duvolle TAC as any weapon before, which for those who don't remember or weren't there is probably the most OP weapon we've ever had in this game.
I don't know man. First iteration Laser Rifles and Flaylock Pistols were pretty insane.... |
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sir RAVEN WING
Horizons' Edge
Proficiency V.
1147
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 01:46:00 -
[81] - Quote
Imp Smash wrote:Funkmaster Whale wrote: While people may claim that on average people get similar K/Ds compared to other rifles, the fact remains that the current iteration of the BAR feels damn near as close to the Uprising 1.0 Duvolle TAC as any weapon before, which for those who don't remember or weren't there is probably the most OP weapon we've ever had in this game. I don't know man. First iteration Laser Rifles and Flaylock Pistols were pretty insane....
The laz0rs... I burned down team after team until the nerf. I called it the 'Lightsaber gun' despite never watch star wars...
I need to get around to watching them.
RPG!. The Ultimate Forum Passing-Time MetaGame!
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Helghus Resther
Heisen Republic
26
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 01:54:00 -
[82] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Her Chosen wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Her Chosen wrote:To CCP, underused means UP. Overused means OP.
They thought the bolt pistol was UP because it wasn't used, so they buffed it.
So, the HMG and SG are technically the most OP weapons in the game, let's nerf them based on subjective data. That is patently untrue, and falls under spreading false information. Those statements came information you've posted on these very forums. You claimed data suggested the bolt wasn't performing well because it didn't register many kills as its peers. You posted what would be EvE type kill mails, showing the suits and guns responsible for most PC kills FYI: all data is subjective to due circumstances and human variables. Underuse or overuse is just a sign that something wrong, it's the symptom. You then have to go in there and figure out WHAT is wrong, why it's overused or underused. Not always. Some niche weapons like the Flaylock, Plasma Cannon, MD and Laser Rifle will always be underused because of their situational nature.
I'm not sure about that. Do you remember the flaylock pistol before it was nerfed? If they added splash damage, or laser rifle range and accuracy, etc etc the weapons may be the next overused/OP weapons. |
Thurak1
Psygod9
1023
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Posted - 2014.12.05 02:18:00 -
[83] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Just because a weapon is used often does not mean it is necessarily overpowered. Neither are underused weapons underpowered.
A great example is the Laser Rifle. It is a very underused weapon and yet it is extremely powerful when it us used. Which makes it just barely balanced.
The BAR is another great example. It is said to be overpowered because it is used more than any of the other AR types. Yet, people using the Breach AR tend to get very similar K/D's to people using the Tactical Assault Rifle and Burst Assault Rifle. Yet both of those weapons are considered underpowered.
Do you see the logical fallacy in the argumentation of many of these nerf and buff posts that assume that overused is synonymous to overpowered? It is a fallacy that is terribly incorrect and cancerous for the community.
For the laser it is very powerful but only in a certain niche range. If you are too close or too far from a laser weapon its more like a long range tickle wand.
Weapons that are only very effective in certain situations are not OP they are filling a specific role.
Such as the HMG. Up close they are devistating. At 60 meters they are a tickle cannons.
I will even argue the shotguns ( a weapon i HATE! ) they are pretty effective even at 20 meters. However get close and deliver a headshot and they are killing machines able to blow off nearly all the shields and armor of even a sentinel in 1 hit!
These weapons are not OP.
Weapons that are very effective at every range vs shields and armor and have no real downsides are OP. I cant think of 1 right now. |
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