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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
5285
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Posted - 2014.12.03 16:22:00 -
[61] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Yet, people using the Breach AR tend to get very similar K/D's to people using the Tactical Assault Rifle and Burst Assault Rifle. Where are you getting this information? Has CCP posted the average K/D's for the AR and it's variants somewhere that I missed?
Or are you using your purely anecdotal experiences that amount to a tiny fraction of the games played per day in Dust 514?
My advice to you, playa...
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Vell0cet
Company of Marcher Lords
Amarr Empire
2632
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Posted - 2014.12.03 16:22:00 -
[62] - Quote
Over/underused is a red flag. It means, we should look at those weapons/suits/vehicles/turrets etc and figure out why they're over/underused. It could be they're OP/UP or it could be (as in the case of the LR--which is in a great place now) that they're niche weapons or have unique mechanics that require high skill but are working well for those who have mastered it (e.g. Plasma Cannon) and are great at what they do. It's a tool for identifying POTENTIAL problems but nowhere close to being the final arbiter in balance. I think CCP Rattati has been very clear about this approach, and it's a good one.
Best PvE idea ever!
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
4794
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Posted - 2014.12.03 16:36:00 -
[63] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:Cat Merc wrote:
Underuse or overuse is just a sign that something wrong, it's the symptom.
You then have to go in there and figure out WHAT is wrong, why it's overused or underused.
why didnt we do that with the RR?
Dude, it was OP, it got nerfed, get over it. Consider these definite facts:
- It accounted for over 1/2 of all rifle kills, with as good or better a K/D as all other rifles
- It's a long range weapon
There is no disputing those two things, nor are they open to interpretation.
Now, ask yourself, are most battles in Dust fought at long range? Do most kills occur at long range?
I don't have hard data on that (CCP probably does), but based on a lot of the map sockets, I'd say no, MOST kills do not occur at long range.
So we have 1/4 of rifles accounting for 1/2 of kills in an environment in which most kills are not in it's primary range. That is a definite imbalance of some kind. The logical conclusion is that it is performing too well outside of it's intended function and overlapping with others.
In addition, the very fact that it was used by the majority should have resulted in a decrement in performance as less-skilled players adopted it. There is no way that only the "good" players were using it (unlike, say, the LR, where only people who are skilled with it use it frequently) and therefore the K/D remained the same. No, all the scrubs were adopting it as well, and yet they did not drag down the overall numbers. Again, that's a sign of a rifle that is performing better than the others.
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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Evolution-7
The Rainbow Effect
681
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Posted - 2014.12.03 18:05:00 -
[64] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Just because a weapon is used often does not mean it is necessarily overpowered. Neither are underused weapons underpowered.
A great example is the Laser Rifle. It is a very underused weapon and yet it is extremely powerful when it us used. Which makes it just barely balanced.
The BAR is another great example. It is said to be overpowered because it is used more than any of the other AR types. Yet, people using the Breach AR tend to get very similar K/D's to people using the Tactical Assault Rifle and Burst Assault Rifle. Yet both of those weapons are considered underpowered.
Do you see the logical fallacy in the argumentation of many of these nerf and buff posts that assume that overused is synonymous to overpowered? It is a fallacy that is terribly incorrect and cancerous for the community.
Well what can you say man, this has plagued the game since may 6 2013 and will continue to do so.
Replication to Uprising 1.4. Good times.
PSN: AdmiralEvo
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Duke Noobiam
The Dukes of Death
275
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Posted - 2014.12.03 18:26:00 -
[65] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Just because a weapon is used often does not mean it is necessarily overpowered. Neither are underused weapons underpowered.
A great example is the Laser Rifle. It is a very underused weapon and yet it is extremely powerful when it us used. Which makes it just barely balanced.
The BAR is another great example. It is said to be overpowered because it is used more than any of the other AR types. Yet, people using the Breach AR tend to get very similar K/D's to people using the Tactical Assault Rifle and Burst Assault Rifle. Yet both of those weapons are considered underpowered.
Do you see the logical fallacy in the argumentation of many of these nerf and buff posts that assume that overused is synonymous to overpowered? It is a fallacy that is terribly incorrect and cancerous for the community.
There's a subset of the community that continuously tries to exploit the current meta of the game to extract every possible advantage they can get.
These FOTM chasers are what make OP weapons be used in greater numbers than average or UP weapons.
BAR is OP, sorry if you were using it prior to the recent buff but thems are the facts.
BPO dropsuits owned:
Sever M-1 logi, Quafe M-1 assault, Quafe M-1 scout, Raven C-1 assault, Dragonfly G-1 scout
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DeadlyAztec11
Ostrakon Agency
6286
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Posted - 2014.12.03 22:14:00 -
[66] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Yet, people using the Breach AR tend to get very similar K/D's to people using the Tactical Assault Rifle and Burst Assault Rifle. Where are you getting this information? Has CCP posted the average K/D's for the AR and it's variants somewhere that I missed? Or are you using your purely anecdotal experiences that amount to a tiny fraction of the games played per day in Dust 514? They actually did. I didn't believe it either, but a gut linked me.
Put your flags up in the sky.
And wave them side to side.
Show the world where you're from.
Show the world we are one.
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DeadlyAztec11
Ostrakon Agency
6286
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Posted - 2014.12.03 22:17:00 -
[67] - Quote
Duke Noobiam wrote:DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Just because a weapon is used often does not mean it is necessarily overpowered. Neither are underused weapons underpowered.
A great example is the Laser Rifle. It is a very underused weapon and yet it is extremely powerful when it us used. Which makes it just barely balanced.
The BAR is another great example. It is said to be overpowered because it is used more than any of the other AR types. Yet, people using the Breach AR tend to get very similar K/D's to people using the Tactical Assault Rifle and Burst Assault Rifle. Yet both of those weapons are considered underpowered.
Do you see the logical fallacy in the argumentation of many of these nerf and buff posts that assume that overused is synonymous to overpowered? It is a fallacy that is terribly incorrect and cancerous for the community. There's a subset of the community that continuously tries to exploit the current meta of the game to extract every possible advantage they can get. These FOTM chasers are what make OP weapons be used in greater numbers than average or UP weapons. BAR is OP, sorry if you were using it prior to the recent buff but thems are the facts.
Let's say for the sake of argument that you're right, and that the BAR is OP and so it gets nerfed. What is the new OP weapon?
There's always an overused weapon and the terrible part about that factis that as soon as one weapon is nerfed a the next most used weapon is nerfed. That's no way to balance because it ensures that there will always be something that is seen as being OP.
Put your flags up in the sky.
And wave them side to side.
Show the world where you're from.
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Blueprint For Murder
Storm Wind Strikeforce
Caldari State
428
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Posted - 2014.12.03 23:01:00 -
[68] - Quote
The rail rifle is just as op as it ever was they nerfed the nerf lol as soon as the sheep catch on they will be right back to it most have already returned.
21 day fast 12/1/14 Life-$
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Pocket Rocket Girl
Psygod9
104
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Posted - 2014.12.03 23:12:00 -
[69] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:LUGMOS wrote:Actually, there is more at play here.
Let's take your example of the laser rifle. If it were used more, it would not be overpowered. Why? Because it takes more "skill" to use and it is a niche weapon. It cannot kill in close range effectively and will be outperformed vastly by close range weapons in CQC, so it has a weakness.
Let's compare it to the BAR. It takes about the same skill "skill" to use, seeing that they both have ridiculously accurate hipfire, no kick, and laser accurate. However, the Breach AR has more range than its regular variant, but doesn't do as well at range. Like the laser rifle, it has the potential to kill multiple people in one clip. However, it can disengage and then reengage, not like the laser rifle, where it has to be in one sitting. The laser rifle is also held back by its relatively low ammo reserves, while the breach is not. Also, the breach can cover multiple ranges, both close and medium, equally effectively, while the laser rifle does not.
There is also a discrepancy in the meaning of breach and this weapon's range. Typical breaches occur in CQC range, where it should absolutely dominate. However, for some odd reason, it does not lose range compared to its regular variant. Just another thought.
So in conclusion, (relative) ease of use coupled with adaptibility to different situations, make things OP, and the ease of use part leads to more people using it. So typically, a weapon being overused tends to mean it's OP, or at least marginally better at everything. Your reasoning is that the Laser Rifle is innefective in CQC, therefore the BAR is a superior weapon. Yet the Laser Rifle dominates medium range and no other weapon can contest it in its range. Also it even extends its force into long range,edging on the effectiveness of the Rail Rifle and Sniper Rifle. The Laser Rifle is just barely not out of step. Yet it is still underused.
Umm u have to disagree with that a med range the rail and CBR still out dps and are more accurate at longe range it effectivemess drops down to around 28%, the rail and CBR can apply full damage while non-ADS and ADS where as the lazer has to be pin point which can be broken by any one strafing
The Little Girl with the HMG
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Meeko Fent
Kirkinen Risk Control
Caldari State
2185
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Posted - 2014.12.03 23:30:00 -
[70] - Quote
Not being mean, just suggesting however...
If the BAR is so drastically OP, then WHAT can you see being done to fix it?
You all want to shout "OP", but have nothing to back up the claims of OPedness. What is WRONG with the BAR?
Really, not a soul has suggested any fix to the issue besides "nerf"
And we all know what happens when CCP just generically "Nerfs" a thing.
*looks at the BARs Grandpa*
He knows.
Some have said that the range should be dropped, but nobody else has decided "hey, lets advocate that!". You all are here, screeching Nerf, with no real thing you specifically want batted.
As a last not, Optimal should be dropped to 40-50, and Max should be chopped to 100.
I doubt it will do anything, but, It is a discrepancy in the stats that the Breach, which historically has been CQC has the same range as the Common AR.
I Live for Tears
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Mex-0
189
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Posted - 2014.12.03 23:42:00 -
[71] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Just because a weapon is used often does not mean it is necessarily overpowered. Neither are underused weapons underpowered.
A great example is the Laser Rifle. It is a very underused weapon and yet it is extremely powerful when it us used. Which makes it just barely balanced.
The BAR is another great example. It is said to be overpowered because it is used more than any of the other AR types. Yet, people using the Breach AR tend to get very similar K/D's to people using the Tactical Assault Rifle and Burst Assault Rifle. Yet both of those weapons are considered underpowered.
Do you see the logical fallacy in the argumentation of many of these nerf and buff posts that assume that overused is synonymous to overpowered? It is a fallacy that is terribly incorrect and cancerous for the community.
Woot woot that's me! Burst and Tac all the way!
Meh, I give up on FW.
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DeadlyAztec11
Ostrakon Agency
6289
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Posted - 2014.12.04 00:23:00 -
[72] - Quote
Mex-0 wrote:DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Just because a weapon is used often does not mean it is necessarily overpowered. Neither are underused weapons underpowered.
A great example is the Laser Rifle. It is a very underused weapon and yet it is extremely powerful when it us used. Which makes it just barely balanced.
The BAR is another great example. It is said to be overpowered because it is used more than any of the other AR types. Yet, people using the Breach AR tend to get very similar K/D's to people using the Tactical Assault Rifle and Burst Assault Rifle. Yet both of those weapons are considered underpowered.
Do you see the logical fallacy in the argumentation of many of these nerf and buff posts that assume that overused is synonymous to overpowered? It is a fallacy that is terribly incorrect and cancerous for the community. Woot woot that's me! Burst and Tac all the way!
Bravo.
Put your flags up in the sky.
And wave them side to side.
Show the world where you're from.
Show the world we are one.
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Imp Smash
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
448
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Posted - 2014.12.04 05:11:00 -
[73] - Quote
Slave of MORTE wrote:Slave of MORTE wrote:Imp Smash wrote:DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Just because a weapon is used often does not mean it is necessarily overpowered. Neither are underused weapons underpowered.
A great example is the Laser Rifle. It is a very underused weapon and yet it is extremely powerful when it us used. Which makes it just barely balanced.
The BAR is another great example. It is said to be overpowered because it is used more than any of the other AR types. Yet, people using the Breach AR tend to get very similar K/D's to people using the Tactical Assault Rifle and Burst Assault Rifle. Yet both of those weapons are considered underpowered.
Do you see the logical fallacy in the argumentation of many of these nerf and buff posts that assume that overused is synonymous to overpowered? It is a fallacy that is terribly incorrect and cancerous for the community. The laser rifle was a bad analogy though. Because the laser rifle is, as you said, powerful, it also has a lot of weaknesses. It is in fact the worst rifle at MOST ranges. It is the least flexible rifle as well. So even though it is quite dangerous at it's very limited range which can only be applied in very limited situations with very specific setups against very specific enemies, it has plenty of drawbacks. A lot of the overused OP weapons are OP not because they are powerful in a given situation, but because they are powerful in all situations. One of the things about Dust is that gun classes all have a range and enemy type at which it is weak. Some of the so called 'OP' guns don't really have a weakness. At their 'weak' area they are just 'good.' You are right that overused doesn't always mean overpowered. But overpowered gets used a lot... Capable of killing from 35m-100 yes it lack so much versatility clearly ccp needs to buff me Please buff me ratatti..Please you've buffed my lr 3 times in a row now I'm using it in maps where I've never used it before..but not everyone is spamming it it's still a rare sight clearly it needs MOAR POWER
Er...no.
Also: Responding to yourself is a little creepy |
Alena Ventrallis
Vengeance Unbound
2243
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Posted - 2014.12.04 05:15:00 -
[74] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Her Chosen wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Her Chosen wrote:To CCP, underused means UP. Overused means OP.
They thought the bolt pistol was UP because it wasn't used, so they buffed it.
So, the HMG and SG are technically the most OP weapons in the game, let's nerf them based on subjective data. That is patently untrue, and falls under spreading false information. Those statements came information you've posted on these very forums. You claimed data suggested the bolt wasn't performing well because it didn't register many kills as its peers. You posted what would be EvE type kill mails, showing the suits and guns responsible for most PC kills FYI: all data is subjective to due circumstances and human variables. Underuse or overuse is just a sign that something wrong, it's the symptom. You then have to go in there and figure out WHAT is wrong, why it's overused or underused. im still waiting for new RR data that says Rattati nerfs brought its usage down. and im still waiting for him to define what the actual problem with RR was that made it so popular in the first... according to his data. someone get him in here for an inquiry... i have questions and he hasnt given any answers
RR was popular because when it first came out, the thing could kill a hevay in about 1.5 seconds, a medium in under 1 second, and scouts were vaporized instantly. So, people dumped massive SP into the thing, and even after a few nerfs (needed though they were) they had all that SP in it (this was before respecs were a thing) and so continued to use it. Plus, since armor is still the current meta, is it any wonder an armor damaging weapon is one of the popular options?
Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
3506
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Posted - 2014.12.04 05:29:00 -
[75] - Quote
I hear you, OP.....the term, "overpowered (OP)" should be applied when a gun has all the benefits and no consequences or counters. And is extremely powerful.
> Check RND out here
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DeadlyAztec11
Ostrakon Agency
6293
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Posted - 2014.12.04 16:32:00 -
[76] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:I hear you, OP.....the term, "overpowered (OP)" should be applied when a gun has all the benefits and no consequences or counters. And is extremely powerful.
Overpowered just means that an object has more power than it should.
Put your flags up in the sky.
And wave them side to side.
Show the world where you're from.
Show the world we are one.
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TYCHUS MAXWELL
The Fun Police
658
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Posted - 2014.12.04 21:11:00 -
[77] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Just because a weapon is used often does not mean it is necessarily overpowered. Neither are underused weapons underpowered.
A great example is the Laser Rifle. It is a very underused weapon and yet it is extremely powerful when it us used. Which makes it just barely balanced.
The BAR is another great example. It is said to be overpowered because it is used more than any of the other AR types. Yet, people using the Breach AR tend to get very similar K/D's to people using the Tactical Assault Rifle and Burst Assault Rifle. Yet both of those weapons are considered underpowered.
Do you see the logical fallacy in the argumentation of many of these nerf and buff posts that assume that overused is synonymous to overpowered? It is a fallacy that is terribly incorrect and cancerous for the community. I'm sorry friend but you are simply wrong and here's why: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_dominanceNext you will tell me that Terran wasn't OP when SC2 hit... I know we all like to pretend everyone but ourselves in these games are all aspies but we really aren't. I didn't even understand half of what you were referencing. Though, from what I did gather I have managed a rebuttal: Strategy Gëá Weapon Check & mate. Also, by your choosing of that argument I see that you have missed the conclusion of my original plea.
Clearly you didn't understand strategic dominance if your rebuttal made sense to you, but as you said you didn't comprehend any of it. I'm guessing you don't know what the term strategy means. I'll give you a hint it's not a bunch of old men sitting around a room looking at a map like in the movies. Nor is it a board game, that would be Stratego you were thinking of. To simplify though why your rebuttal was foolish hopefully in lame enough terms:
The meta of this game revolves around effective strategies. How a weapon performs will be a part of the consideration of strategic dominance in the meta game. |
Funkmaster Whale
Whale Pod
2525
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Posted - 2014.12.04 22:12:00 -
[78] - Quote
I agree with OP in cases like PC where you see a ton of Sentinel spam thus leading to Boundless HMG topping kills. In cases like that, the reason you see such saturated use of a weapon is due to the circumstances of PC so heavily relying on objectives, and naturally Sentinels are the best fitted to defend. In normal game modes people couldn't care less about winning by holding objectives since ISK rewards are based off WP counts and there are far more effective methods to gain WP than holding objectives.
In the case of the BAR though it is pretty evident that it's too powerful. While people may claim that on average people get similar K/Ds compared to other rifles, the fact remains that the current iteration of the BAR feels damn near as close to the Uprising 1.0 Duvolle TAC as any weapon before, which for those who don't remember or weren't there is probably the most OP weapon we've ever had in this game.
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sir RAVEN WING
Horizons' Edge
Proficiency V.
1147
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Posted - 2014.12.05 01:11:00 -
[79] - Quote
Blueprint For Murder wrote:There are different types of balance ideally every weapon would be used equally because this would create a great variety in game play. Then there is balance as in strength of a weapon.
Ease of use is something that you seem to miss OP the LR is not very easy to use at first with its extra loose movement and precision. All of the ARs are easy to use, but worthless at range,The RR and CR are very easy to use and have the strongest profiles and he HMG is very easy to use and very strong with in its ranges.
Now there are meant to be mechanics to balance the RR and HMG, but for what every reason these weapons have been buffed well beyond the usefulness of these mechanics. As for the CR it was brought to equality with the other rifles with no balancing mechanics which was just a failure on the devs part.
I thought you were going to say the RR was OP...
It isn't.
@Aztec
I will say that the BrAR isn't as OP as it seems. I've tried using it and I can't get a single kill unless within 55m and then it seems to kill everything extremely fast... this is why I will stick with an ARR or an RR.
I also use the regular AR and I see nothing too bad with it.
RPG!. The Ultimate Forum Passing-Time MetaGame!
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Imp Smash
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
453
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Posted - 2014.12.05 01:32:00 -
[80] - Quote
Funkmaster Whale wrote: While people may claim that on average people get similar K/Ds compared to other rifles, the fact remains that the current iteration of the BAR feels damn near as close to the Uprising 1.0 Duvolle TAC as any weapon before, which for those who don't remember or weren't there is probably the most OP weapon we've ever had in this game.
I don't know man. First iteration Laser Rifles and Flaylock Pistols were pretty insane.... |
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sir RAVEN WING
Horizons' Edge
Proficiency V.
1147
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Posted - 2014.12.05 01:46:00 -
[81] - Quote
Imp Smash wrote:Funkmaster Whale wrote: While people may claim that on average people get similar K/Ds compared to other rifles, the fact remains that the current iteration of the BAR feels damn near as close to the Uprising 1.0 Duvolle TAC as any weapon before, which for those who don't remember or weren't there is probably the most OP weapon we've ever had in this game. I don't know man. First iteration Laser Rifles and Flaylock Pistols were pretty insane....
The laz0rs... I burned down team after team until the nerf. I called it the 'Lightsaber gun' despite never watch star wars...
I need to get around to watching them.
RPG!. The Ultimate Forum Passing-Time MetaGame!
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Helghus Resther
Heisen Republic
26
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Posted - 2014.12.05 01:54:00 -
[82] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Her Chosen wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Her Chosen wrote:To CCP, underused means UP. Overused means OP.
They thought the bolt pistol was UP because it wasn't used, so they buffed it.
So, the HMG and SG are technically the most OP weapons in the game, let's nerf them based on subjective data. That is patently untrue, and falls under spreading false information. Those statements came information you've posted on these very forums. You claimed data suggested the bolt wasn't performing well because it didn't register many kills as its peers. You posted what would be EvE type kill mails, showing the suits and guns responsible for most PC kills FYI: all data is subjective to due circumstances and human variables. Underuse or overuse is just a sign that something wrong, it's the symptom. You then have to go in there and figure out WHAT is wrong, why it's overused or underused. Not always. Some niche weapons like the Flaylock, Plasma Cannon, MD and Laser Rifle will always be underused because of their situational nature.
I'm not sure about that. Do you remember the flaylock pistol before it was nerfed? If they added splash damage, or laser rifle range and accuracy, etc etc the weapons may be the next overused/OP weapons. |
Thurak1
Psygod9
1023
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Posted - 2014.12.05 02:18:00 -
[83] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Just because a weapon is used often does not mean it is necessarily overpowered. Neither are underused weapons underpowered.
A great example is the Laser Rifle. It is a very underused weapon and yet it is extremely powerful when it us used. Which makes it just barely balanced.
The BAR is another great example. It is said to be overpowered because it is used more than any of the other AR types. Yet, people using the Breach AR tend to get very similar K/D's to people using the Tactical Assault Rifle and Burst Assault Rifle. Yet both of those weapons are considered underpowered.
Do you see the logical fallacy in the argumentation of many of these nerf and buff posts that assume that overused is synonymous to overpowered? It is a fallacy that is terribly incorrect and cancerous for the community.
For the laser it is very powerful but only in a certain niche range. If you are too close or too far from a laser weapon its more like a long range tickle wand.
Weapons that are only very effective in certain situations are not OP they are filling a specific role.
Such as the HMG. Up close they are devistating. At 60 meters they are a tickle cannons.
I will even argue the shotguns ( a weapon i HATE! ) they are pretty effective even at 20 meters. However get close and deliver a headshot and they are killing machines able to blow off nearly all the shields and armor of even a sentinel in 1 hit!
These weapons are not OP.
Weapons that are very effective at every range vs shields and armor and have no real downsides are OP. I cant think of 1 right now. |
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