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DeadlyAztec11
Ostrakon Agency
6265
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Posted - 2014.12.03 03:35:00 -
[1] - Quote
Just because a weapon is used often does not mean it is necessarily overpowered. Neither are underused weapons underpowered.
A great example is the Laser Rifle. It is a very underused weapon and yet it is extremely powerful when it us used. Which makes it just barely balanced.
The BAR is another great example. It is said to be overpowered because it is used more than any of the other AR types. Yet, people using the Breach AR tend to get very similar K/D's to people using the Tactical Assault Rifle and Burst Assault Rifle. Yet both of those weapons are considered underpowered.
Do you see the logical fallacy in the argumentation of many of these nerf and buff posts that assume that overused is synonymous to overpowered? It is a fallacy that is terribly incorrect and cancerous for the community.
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DeadlyAztec11
Ostrakon Agency
6266
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Posted - 2014.12.03 03:44:00 -
[2] - Quote
TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Just because a weapon is used often does not mean it is necessarily overpowered. Neither are underused weapons underpowered.
A great example is the Laser Rifle. It is a very underused weapon and yet it is extremely powerful when it us used. Which makes it just barely balanced.
The BAR is another great example. It is said to be overpowered because it is used more than any of the other AR types. Yet, people using the Breach AR tend to get very similar K/D's to people using the Tactical Assault Rifle and Burst Assault Rifle. Yet both of those weapons are considered underpowered.
Do you see the logical fallacy in the argumentation of many of these nerf and buff posts that assume that overused is synonymous to overpowered? It is a fallacy that is terribly incorrect and cancerous for the community. I'm sorry friend but you are simply wrong and here's why: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_dominanceNext you will tell me that Terran wasn't OP when SC2 hit... I know we all like to pretend everyone but ourselves in these games are all aspies but we really aren't.
I didn't even understand half of what you were referencing. Though, from what I did gather I have managed a rebuttal:
Strategy Gëá Weapon
Check & mate.
Also, by your choosing of that argument I see that you have missed the conclusion of my original plea.
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DeadlyAztec11
Ostrakon Agency
6266
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Posted - 2014.12.03 03:47:00 -
[3] - Quote
One Eyed King wrote:I would agree if that were the only data used to determine whether or not something was over powered or not.
The problem is that the other data used, like wp/d etc often corroborates the sales data.
The fact is, in a competitive setting people use what is most effective, and in a game like Dust where there is a cost associated with death, that market data is more reliable than normal, though not totally perfect.
It is an extremely innacurate method of choosing what to define as being overpowered though. Because sales data simply means that an item is being lost more consistently in battle. That can actually mean a weapon is actually performing more meekly since its users are dieing more often.
The duplicity in this data is impossible to over look.
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DeadlyAztec11
Ostrakon Agency
6266
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Posted - 2014.12.03 04:04:00 -
[4] - Quote
LUGMOS wrote:Actually, there is more at play here.
Let's take your example of the laser rifle. If it were used more, it would not be overpowered. Why? Because it takes more "skill" to use and it is a niche weapon. It cannot kill in close range effectively and will be outperformed vastly by close range weapons in CQC, so it has a weakness.
Let's compare it to the BAR. It takes about the same skill "skill" to use, seeing that they both have ridiculously accurate hipfire, no kick, and laser accurate. However, the Breach AR has more range than its regular variant, but doesn't do as well at range. Like the laser rifle, it has the potential to kill multiple people in one clip. However, it can disengage and then reengage, not like the laser rifle, where it has to be in one sitting. The laser rifle is also held back by its relatively low ammo reserves, while the breach is not. Also, the breach can cover multiple ranges, both close and medium, equally effectively, while the laser rifle does not.
There is also a discrepancy in the meaning of breach and this weapon's range. Typical breaches occur in CQC range, where it should absolutely dominate. However, for some odd reason, it does not lose range compared to its regular variant. Just another thought.
So in conclusion, (relative) ease of use coupled with adaptibility to different situations, make things OP, and the ease of use part leads to more people using it. So typically, a weapon being overused tends to mean it's OP, or at least marginally better at everything.
Your reasoning is that the Laser Rifle is innefective in CQC, therefore the BAR is a superior weapon. Yet the Laser Rifle dominates medium range and no other weapon can contest it in its range. Also it even extends its force into long range,edging on the effectiveness of the Rail Rifle and Sniper Rifle.
The Laser Rifle is just barely not out of step. Yet it is still underused.
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DeadlyAztec11
Ostrakon Agency
6267
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Posted - 2014.12.03 04:19:00 -
[5] - Quote
My favorite gun is the ASCR. Your argument is invalid. I haven't seriously committed to using the BAR since April. My last use of the BAR was two weeks ago for two matches only. I found the weapon good, but not good enough to warrant switching to it outside of my preferences. If the BAR was removed tomorrow all my classes would be unaffected. The reason I am defending it is becayse of principals.
In short...
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DeadlyAztec11
Ostrakon Agency
6267
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Posted - 2014.12.03 04:21:00 -
[6] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Ccp used more than sales data to determine over performance. Kills per second and kills per death are used, if I recall correctly. Those things and more.
Your argument is invalid.
Note, I never said that CCP only used certain data. I merely acknowledged some of the data they do use.
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DeadlyAztec11
Ostrakon Agency
6273
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Posted - 2014.12.03 10:41:00 -
[7] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Her Chosen wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Her Chosen wrote:To CCP, underused means UP. Overused means OP.
They thought the bolt pistol was UP because it wasn't used, so they buffed it.
So, the HMG and SG are technically the most OP weapons in the game, let's nerf them based on subjective data. That is patently untrue, and falls under spreading false information. Those statements came information you've posted on these very forums. You claimed data suggested the bolt wasn't performing well because it didn't register many kills as its peers. You posted what would be EvE type kill mails, showing the suits and guns responsible for most PC kills FYI: all data is subjective to due circumstances and human variables. Underuse or overuse is just a sign that something wrong, it's the symptom. You then have to go in there and figure out WHAT is wrong, why it's overused or underused.
Not always. Some niche weapons like the Flaylock, Plasma Cannon, MD and Laser Rifle will always be underused because of their situational nature.
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DeadlyAztec11
Ostrakon Agency
6286
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Posted - 2014.12.03 22:14:00 -
[8] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Yet, people using the Breach AR tend to get very similar K/D's to people using the Tactical Assault Rifle and Burst Assault Rifle. Where are you getting this information? Has CCP posted the average K/D's for the AR and it's variants somewhere that I missed? Or are you using your purely anecdotal experiences that amount to a tiny fraction of the games played per day in Dust 514? They actually did. I didn't believe it either, but a gut linked me.
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DeadlyAztec11
Ostrakon Agency
6286
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Posted - 2014.12.03 22:17:00 -
[9] - Quote
Duke Noobiam wrote:DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Just because a weapon is used often does not mean it is necessarily overpowered. Neither are underused weapons underpowered.
A great example is the Laser Rifle. It is a very underused weapon and yet it is extremely powerful when it us used. Which makes it just barely balanced.
The BAR is another great example. It is said to be overpowered because it is used more than any of the other AR types. Yet, people using the Breach AR tend to get very similar K/D's to people using the Tactical Assault Rifle and Burst Assault Rifle. Yet both of those weapons are considered underpowered.
Do you see the logical fallacy in the argumentation of many of these nerf and buff posts that assume that overused is synonymous to overpowered? It is a fallacy that is terribly incorrect and cancerous for the community. There's a subset of the community that continuously tries to exploit the current meta of the game to extract every possible advantage they can get. These FOTM chasers are what make OP weapons be used in greater numbers than average or UP weapons. BAR is OP, sorry if you were using it prior to the recent buff but thems are the facts.
Let's say for the sake of argument that you're right, and that the BAR is OP and so it gets nerfed. What is the new OP weapon?
There's always an overused weapon and the terrible part about that factis that as soon as one weapon is nerfed a the next most used weapon is nerfed. That's no way to balance because it ensures that there will always be something that is seen as being OP.
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DeadlyAztec11
Ostrakon Agency
6289
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Posted - 2014.12.04 00:23:00 -
[10] - Quote
Mex-0 wrote:DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Just because a weapon is used often does not mean it is necessarily overpowered. Neither are underused weapons underpowered.
A great example is the Laser Rifle. It is a very underused weapon and yet it is extremely powerful when it us used. Which makes it just barely balanced.
The BAR is another great example. It is said to be overpowered because it is used more than any of the other AR types. Yet, people using the Breach AR tend to get very similar K/D's to people using the Tactical Assault Rifle and Burst Assault Rifle. Yet both of those weapons are considered underpowered.
Do you see the logical fallacy in the argumentation of many of these nerf and buff posts that assume that overused is synonymous to overpowered? It is a fallacy that is terribly incorrect and cancerous for the community. Woot woot that's me! Burst and Tac all the way!
Bravo.
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DeadlyAztec11
Ostrakon Agency
6293
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Posted - 2014.12.04 16:32:00 -
[11] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:I hear you, OP.....the term, "overpowered (OP)" should be applied when a gun has all the benefits and no consequences or counters. And is extremely powerful.
Overpowered just means that an object has more power than it should.
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