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Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5295	Posted - 2014.11.24 15:37:00 - [1] - Quote I'm actually fine with them. What I don't understand is why the Sentinel is being given the highest penalty with scouts. Strafe dodging fire in a fatsuit is hilarious because it doesn't really help. The only place you can do it is in front of a tank turret up close but that can be fixed by increasing turret rotation speed by 10% and slightly increasing large blaster rate of fire. I know because I do it a lot. I exploit the firing mechanics of the turrets to make HAV drivers rage. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 5071	Posted - 2014.11.24 16:10:00 - [2] - Quote Maybe it is being implemented to make it easier for bad Logi to keep their Sentinel between them and the guys shooting at them. On a related note, I donGÇÖt think it makes sense for Shield Extenders to slow you down, and think it would be better if Shield Extenders increased the size of your Shield Hit Box, but of course I am not sure if that is feasible from a technical standpoint. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 619	Posted - 2014.11.24 16:17:00 - [3] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Maybe it is being implemented to make it easier for bad Logi to keep their Sentinel between them and the guys shooting at them. On a related note, I donGÇÖt think it makes sense for Shield Extenders to slow you down, and think it would be better if Shield Extenders increased the size of your Shield Hit Box, but of course I am not sure if that is feasible from a technical standpoint. Why even nerf shields? Seriously, they already have depleted recharge delay why are they looking to nerf shields more? **** makes no sense... hit detection is the issue with Caldari scouts not how good dey shields is!
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 619	Posted - 2014.11.24 16:27:00 - [4] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: I'm actually fine with them. What I don't understand is why the Sentinel is being given the highest penalty with scouts. Strafe dodging fire in a fatsuit is hilarious because it doesn't really help. The only place you can do it is in front of a tank turret up close but that can be fixed by increasing turret rotation speed by 10% and slightly increasing large blaster rate of fire. I know because I do it a lot. I exploit the firing mechanics of the turrets to make HAV drivers rage. Show me a video of sentinels strafe glitching consistently over several matches and I'll likely change my tune. But I'm having a hard time understanding how adding a proportionately smaller load increases a movement penalty that significantly. You can strafe glitch assault suits successfully but they are getting the smallest penalty? No really I'm confused, not trolling and open to logic. I thought the sentinel strafing was already fixed... I used to have issues hitting minmitar and Caldari sentinels that were strafing with a hmg but that doesn't happen anymore... was it a placebo effect?
Ace Boone Capital Acquisitions LLC 398	Posted - 2014.11.24 16:30:00 - [5] - Quote Minmitar, Gallente and Caldari strafe are all very good and difficult to hit. Only loyal to the republic.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 619	Posted - 2014.11.24 16:40:00 - [6] - Quote Ace Boone wrote: Minmitar, Gallente and Caldari strafe are all very good and difficult to hit. That's probably because Amarr suits are the slowest and typically stack on plates making them slower. Moving targets are indeed harder to hit then stationary targets. if you move at like 3 meters a second yeah, you're going to be pretty easy to hit. Meanwhile I think my adv min sentinel with a damage mod and shield recharger and an armor repper moves at like 4.32 speed, which is slightly slower then my adv Gal assaults which I think are around 4.5 speed with two enhanced plates and two enhanced reps. The only issue to me would be if the shields were flaring and the armor thunking and they weren't taking damage which as far as I've seen doesn't happen to heavy suits. Are people really confusing the bugginess of hitting scouts with the difficulty of just aiming at a faster moving target like a min sentinel? Which I guess is the irony of this discussion, at least for my minmitar and Caldari sentinels, I don't put shield extenders on them anyways I'd rather have recharge and rep along with damage mods. And the Gallente is primary armor anyways so they could just stack damage mods... Punishing Caldari Assaults for using extenders which they need won't fix sentinels or Gallente/Minmitar scouts.
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 3368	Posted - 2014.11.24 19:08:00 - [7] - Quote It should affects scouts more I think. Scouts are skinny they can't afford to be fat. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3581	Posted - 2014.11.24 19:11:00 - [8] - Quote Agreed. Stick a 100 pound backpack on some skinny teenager then stick that same bag on a heavyweight fighter. Does it really make sense that the fighter be hindered more than the teenager? Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
Booby Tuesdays Tuesdays With Boobies 1029	Posted - 2014.11.24 19:39:00 - [9] - Quote What are the odds of getting 3 tiers of plates? Light, medium, and heavy? Could they just rework the current 3 types of plates to be tiered, and affect each size frame accordingly? i.e. light plates have a slight penalty to light frames, medium plates have a slight penalty to medium frames, but a more drastic effect to light frames? Something along those lines makes way more sense than punishing everyone for the sins of the few, imho. Half-Assed Forum Warrior / Half-Decent Commando / Damn Good Logi
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 641	Posted - 2014.11.24 19:57:00 - [10] - Quote Would prefer for HP modules to affect heavy backpedal speeds.

TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 623	Posted - 2014.11.24 19:58:00 - [11] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: What are the odds of getting 3 tiers of plates? Light, medium, and heavy? Could they just rework the current 3 types of plates to be tiered, and affect each size frame accordingly? i.e. light plates have a slight penalty to light frames, medium plates have a slight penalty to medium frames, but a more drastic effect to light frames? Something along those lines makes way more sense than punishing everyone for the sins of the few, imho. How exactly would that work? They would have to rework what the plates actually did as well, because as it stands reactive are only really good on suits with very little low slots who could use some armor rep like Caldari while ferroscale are pretty much useless on any suit. You might as well fit a kincat or a regulator rather than fit a few more armor points just for no slight penalty to movement. As it stands, I use armored plates and armor reps on my Gal suits, armored plate, reactive, and reps on my Min suits and reactives or reps on my Cal suits. Ferroscale just is too minor of a bonus to matter when compared to other low slot choices. Big reason why extenders get away with such low numbers is because everything else that takes up a high slot has a stacking penalty with the exception of scan related high slots which really only exist for amarr scouts at this point.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1337	Posted - 2014.11.24 20:32:00 - [12] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: I'm actually fine with them. What I don't understand is why the Sentinel is being given the highest penalty with scouts. Strafe dodging fire in a fatsuit is hilarious because it doesn't really help. The only place you can do it is in front of a tank turret up close but that can be fixed by increasing turret rotation speed by 10% and slightly increasing large blaster rate of fire. I know because I do it a lot. I exploit the firing mechanics of the turrets to make HAV drivers rage. Show me a video of sentinels strafe glitching consistently over several matches and I'll likely change my tune. But I'm having a hard time understanding how adding a proportionately smaller load increases a movement penalty that significantly. You can strafe glitch assault suits successfully but they are getting the smallest penalty? No really I'm confused, not trolling and open to logic. I've seen some fatties strafe up a storm. Every shot not taken really helps. The reason i believe is so that scouts still hold a movement advantage over sents. Yes,sents are being slowed down even more to be easier to SG or KN. As for assaults... I gave up trying to understand right after they got 160 extra eHP (which by itself would've been enough) and Pro logistics slots (making them insanely OP) with 0 speed reduction. The favorite child will always get the best of everything,everytime. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 623	Posted - 2014.11.24 20:34:00 - [13] - Quote Meee One wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: I'm actually fine with them. What I don't understand is why the Sentinel is being given the highest penalty with scouts. Strafe dodging fire in a fatsuit is hilarious because it doesn't really help. The only place you can do it is in front of a tank turret up close but that can be fixed by increasing turret rotation speed by 10% and slightly increasing large blaster rate of fire. I know because I do it a lot. I exploit the firing mechanics of the turrets to make HAV drivers rage. Show me a video of sentinels strafe glitching consistently over several matches and I'll likely change my tune. But I'm having a hard time understanding how adding a proportionately smaller load increases a movement penalty that significantly. You can strafe glitch assault suits successfully but they are getting the smallest penalty? No really I'm confused, not trolling and open to logic. I've seen some fatties strafe up a storm. Every shot not taken really helps. The reason i believe is so that scouts still hold a movement advantage over sents. Yes,sents are being slowed down even more to be easier to SG or KN. As for assaults... I gave up trying to understand right after they got 160 extra eHP (which by itself would've been enough) and Pro logistics slots (making them insanely OP) with 0 speed reduction. The favorite child will always get the best of everything,everytime. That's probably why assault suits are all the rave in PC...
Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment. 202	Posted - 2014.11.24 20:43:00 - [14] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: I'm actually fine with them. What I don't understand is why the Sentinel is being given the highest penalty with scouts. Strafe dodging fire in a fatsuit is hilarious because it doesn't really help. The only place you can do it is in front of a tank turret up close but that can be fixed by increasing turret rotation speed by 10% and slightly increasing large blaster rate of fire. I know because I do it a lot. I exploit the firing mechanics of the turrets to make HAV drivers rage. Show me a video of sentinels strafe glitching consistently over several matches and I'll likely change my tune. But I'm having a hard time understanding how adding a proportionately smaller load increases a movement penalty that significantly. You can strafe glitch assault suits successfully but they are getting the smallest penalty? No really I'm confused, not trolling and open to logic. Sentinels can and do strafe effectively. If you throw one strafing sentinel against one moving straight forward or standing still, the one standing still will lose every single time. Its not like scout or assault strafing, but it is strafing and it is effective (certainly far more effective than standing still)
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 151	Posted - 2014.11.24 23:47:00 - [15] - Quote @everybody but OP: I think what Breakin (the OP) is getting at is that it doesn't make sense for heavies to get a strafe penalty that's nearly as harsh as a scout's strafe penalty when it's already nearly impossible to strafe glitch in a heavy suit. What I mean to say is that the whole "wiggledance" that an increasing number of shield light/medframe users are doing actually breaks hit detection, due to the strafe speed that they have. Heavy suit strafe speed is already so slow that it's borderline impossible to wiggledance one's way to victory. EDIT: It's not that he's saying "heavies don't strafe effectively", he's saying "heavies don't strafe glitch effectively". Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 430	Posted - 2014.11.25 03:18:00 - [16] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: I'm actually fine with them. What I don't understand is why the Sentinel is being given the highest penalty with scouts. Strafe dodging fire in a fatsuit is hilarious because it doesn't really help. The only place you can do it is in front of a tank turret up close but that can be fixed by increasing turret rotation speed by 10% and slightly increasing large blaster rate of fire. I know because I do it a lot. I exploit the firing mechanics of the turrets to make HAV drivers rage. Show me a video of sentinels strafe glitching consistently over several matches and I'll likely change my tune. But I'm having a hard time understanding how adding a proportionately smaller load increases a movement penalty that significantly. You can strafe glitch assault suits successfully but they are getting the smallest penalty? No really I'm confused, not trolling and open to logic. Sentinels can and do strafe effectively. If you throw one strafing sentinel against one moving straight forward or standing still, the one standing still will lose every single time. Its not like scout or assault strafing, but it is strafing and it is effective (certainly far more effective than standing still) The issue with strafing is not the fact that moving side to side makes you harder to hit. This exists on literally every shooter ever. Even oldschool Rainbow Six had it. In dust high speeds cause hit detection to fail. Or hit detection to not fail and displayed objects to fail. Or both. No one is exactly sure what part of the equation is breaking -- but you can put a shot on a high speed suit, get your hit sound, get your hit marker, get a shield flash, have a red reticule, literally everything in the game. And sometimes it won't count as damage. Even though you hit them plainly. That's the problem everyone is having. Scouts, being high speed naturally, are currently much harder to kill than their HP would suggest. Some assaults can do it too. Sentinels cannot. They can strafe, and if they zig when you think they were gonna zag you will miss and that is your bad. or their good. or whatever. But if you hit a sentinel you will always get the damage credit for it. Hence sentinels are not broken when it comes to taking damage, and do not need a dodge nerf.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5320	Posted - 2014.11.25 05:18:00 - [17] - Quote Victor Moody Stahl wrote: @everybody but OP: I think what Breakin (the OP) is getting at is that it doesn't make sense for heavies to get a strafe penalty that's nearly as harsh as a scout's strafe penalty when it's already nearly impossible to strafe glitch in a heavy suit. What I mean to say is that the whole "wiggledance" that an increasing number of shield light/medframe users are doing actually breaks hit detection, due to the strafe speed that they have. Heavy suit strafe speed is already so slow that it's borderline impossible to wiggledance one's way to victory. EDIT: It's not that he's saying "heavies don't strafe effectively", he's saying "heavies don't strafe glitch effectively". DING DING DING DING DING! WE HAVE A WINNER! and shields eat a strafe penalty because it's easier to glitch them. plate movement penalty already affects strafe so the change will double penalize them. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2306	Posted - 2014.11.25 07:04:00 - [18] - Quote Amarr and armor tanked heavies can't strafe, that's true. Going to make the slug even sluggier. You can tank every heavy with speed and strafe a bit, but it's a marginal role at best -- and this nerf will be felt here. Doesn't make much sense to me either, but I suppose we'll see.
Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment. 203	Posted - 2014.11.25 07:40:00 - [19] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: Vesta Opalus wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: I'm actually fine with them. What I don't understand is why the Sentinel is being given the highest penalty with scouts. Strafe dodging fire in a fatsuit is hilarious because it doesn't really help. The only place you can do it is in front of a tank turret up close but that can be fixed by increasing turret rotation speed by 10% and slightly increasing large blaster rate of fire. I know because I do it a lot. I exploit the firing mechanics of the turrets to make HAV drivers rage. Show me a video of sentinels strafe glitching consistently over several matches and I'll likely change my tune. But I'm having a hard time understanding how adding a proportionately smaller load increases a movement penalty that significantly. You can strafe glitch assault suits successfully but they are getting the smallest penalty? No really I'm confused, not trolling and open to logic. Sentinels can and do strafe effectively. If you throw one strafing sentinel against one moving straight forward or standing still, the one standing still will lose every single time. Its not like scout or assault strafing, but it is strafing and it is effective (certainly far more effective than standing still) The issue with strafing is not the fact that moving side to side makes you harder to hit. This exists on literally every shooter ever. Even oldschool Rainbow Six had it. In dust high speeds cause hit detection to fail. Or hit detection to not fail and displayed objects to fail. Or both. No one is exactly sure what part of the equation is breaking -- but you can put a shot on a high speed suit, get your hit sound, get your hit marker, get a shield flash, have a red reticule, literally everything in the game. And sometimes it won't count as damage. Even though you hit them plainly. That's the problem everyone is having. Scouts, being high speed naturally, are currently much harder to kill than their HP would suggest. Some assaults can do it too. Sentinels cannot. They can strafe, and if they zig when you think they were gonna zag you will miss and that is your bad. or their good. or whatever. But if you hit a sentinel you will always get the damage credit for it. Hence sentinels are not broken when it comes to taking damage, and do not need a dodge nerf. Agreed, I dont think strafing sentinels are hilarious though, since it does help them win firefights, didnt want any new people to sit there trying to stand still going toe to toe with another sentinel wondering why they were losing every fight. Thats what I was responding to.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 12068	Posted - 2014.11.25 08:28:00 - [20] - Quote Gameplay over lore really, I just want Sentinels to have a weakness so that an Assault can stand a chance by headshotting. Right now, the Sentinel wins 99% of the time. Using a mass calculation (substituting HP for mass), the sentinel simply moves to fast comparative to other frames. Without hurting those that don't armor stack and also making it a chore to play heavies, this was my proposal. Extenders were thrown into the mix because of the HP=Mass idea. I still don't understand the hubbub, obviously it would be less than plates, and similar as reactives as they give similar HP. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 7318	Posted - 2014.11.25 08:33:00 - [21] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Gameplay over lore really, I just want Sentinels to have a weakness so that an Assault can stand a chance by headshotting. Right now, the Sentinel wins 99% of the time. Using a mass calculation (substituting HP for mass), the sentinel simply moves to fast comparative to other frames. Without hurting those that don't armor stack and also making it a chore to play heavies, this was my proposal. Extenders were thrown into the mix because of the HP=Mass idea. I still don't understand the hubbub, obviously it would be less than plates, and similar as reactives as they give similar HP. Hitting the wrong area then, me thinks. Rotation speed is a big factor as you can't really flank them with any degree of success more or less than that of any suit. Further more, they can circumvent all of their mobility penalties just by using an LAV. Long-Term Roadmap "It's very important for us to hear their feedback" Gäó
Lynn Beck Delta Vanguard 6 2297	Posted - 2014.11.25 08:43:00 - [22] - Quote in terms of finding lore to explain "extenders make you move slower"- Shield Extenders add an extra bank of Capacitors/Quick discharge battery to your Dropsuits' shielding systems and as such adds weight to the system. Then again, can we have "light extenders" that grant say 20-30-40 and also give a + 10-15-20% recharge bonus, but don't drop speed? We could maybe say that these add redundant shielding processors allowing the dropsuit to dispel energy more efficiently, thus (effectively) adding a Resistance to suits. Then again, i'm just a Skrub, so go ahead and laugh at me. General John Ripper -BAM! I'm Emeril Lagasse. This message was approved by the 'Nobody Loved You' Foundation'
SponkSponkSponk WarRavens Capital Punishment. 1116	Posted - 2014.11.25 09:13:00 - [23] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Using a mass calculation (substituting HP for mass), the sentinel simply moves to fast comparative to other frames. Without hurting those that don't armor stack and also making it a chore to play heavies, this was my proposal. Heavies don't need to stack hp, they have heaps already. If base heavies move too fast, then slow them down directly. Dust/Eve transfers
pagl1u M Dead Man's Game RUST415 953	Posted - 2014.11.25 09:38:00 - [24] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: s so that an Assault can stand a chance by headshotting. Right now, the Sentinel wins 99% of the time. Thank you for understanding this, I still have Faith in CCP only because of you. Why dont you add that strafe penalty only to sentinels and scouts, this will slow sentinels that stack hp and will nerf tanking scouts. Also Rattati please can you provide us more datas about most used suit in PC and pubs? (like the datas you have us about best killers of PC) One of the few assaults you'll find in a PC match!
Jebus McKing Jebus Hates Scans 1070	Posted - 2014.11.25 10:02:00 - [25] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I still don't understand the hubbub I think that if you are stacking plates as a Heavy you don't really care about your speed anyway. Hitting a heavy really is not the problem. On top of that a strafe speed penalty to shield extenders will hit the Minmatar Sentinel the most, because it is the only one actually depending on its mobility. And I think hardly anyone would call Minmatar Sentinels dominating at the moment. From my perspective this proposal looks like it is trying to fix multiple things (Scout+heavy dominance, wiggle strafing, hit detection) with something that seems more like another bandaid than an actual fix. Hitting scouts (but also strafing assaults) indeed is a problem. But I have the feeling it is more a problem of hit detection not working properly rather than strafe speed. [Something is seriously ****** up with this game's network code.Completely anecdotal and I have no proof but it happens way too often that I get hits when I really should have not and vice versa. Especially when the japanese guys decide to come to the EU server again. I just can't damage them. Maybe you could look into that? I don't know, maybe run some extensive testing on your testserver and use some network shaping tools to simulate bad latencies and look how the game compensates for that.] Also, making tanked scouts strafe slower won't fix their dominance in pubs. As long as they can see an enemy coming from Xm away, both on their radar and on tacnet, and have a weapon that can kill even a heavy with 1200+HP in 1-3 hits, you will not fix their effectiveness. Especially in pubs, because the only viable countermeasure to scouts right now is running in blobs of people that actually pay attention, which is rare in pubs. Assault / Logi / Scout / Sentinel // @JebusMcKing G£î
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 441	Posted - 2014.11.25 10:19:00 - [26] - Quote To be honest, nerfing the left-right movement is not going to end the circle strafe. Move left to right now in any suit, its not fast enough to dodge bulllets or break hit detection at all. Attaching it to HP mods is IMO just weak sauce band aid. We know its got nothing to do with HP stacking, we know stacking armor hurts the strafe already, and we know strafers rely on kin cats and speed. We know people that don't strafe rely on HP instead of the "dance" because if you can't dodge bullets then you got to tank them long enough to kill the other guy. I'm not spouting a conspiracy theory as in "its because the devs don't like x, y, or z suits". I am saying the devs are focusing on the wrong area. i repeat , Strafing relies on low eHP, speed and kincats, why focus on shields, already slow heavy suits, and plates that already have a movement penalty? Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5320	Posted - 2014.11.25 10:54:00 - [27] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Gameplay over lore really, I just want Sentinels to have a weakness so that an Assault can stand a chance by headshotting. Right now, the Sentinel wins 99% of the time. Using a mass calculation (substituting HP for mass), the sentinel simply moves to fast comparative to other frames. Without hurting those that don't armor stack and also making it a chore to play heavies, this was my proposal. Extenders were thrown into the mix because of the HP=Mass idea. I still don't understand the hubbub, obviously it would be less than plates, and similar as reactives as they give similar HP. Thanks for responding. I was more interested in why than having a lore reason. Giving better opportunity for assaults to win is a legit reason IMHO. Making sentinels that much slower when you're adding less comparative mass makes no sense unless it's a game balancing reason. I don't have problems with changes unless there's no obvious context where it makes sense. Thanks for explaining. Not having to crystal ball answers helps assuage a lot of problems. I don't necessarily believe it's going to solve anything but what the hell? I'll try anything once. I will, however, request that ferroscale plates also eat a similar penalty to shields and reactives as it provides similar benefit. If we miss that one I forsee the problem relocating from shield armor to ferroscale plates. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 2125	Posted - 2014.11.25 12:01:00 - [28] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: I'm actually fine with them. What I don't understand is why the Sentinel is being given the highest penalty with scouts. Strafe dodging fire in a fatsuit is hilarious because it doesn't really help. The only place you can do it is in front of a tank turret up close but that can be fixed by increasing turret rotation speed by 10% and slightly increasing large blaster rate of fire. I know because I do it a lot. I exploit the firing mechanics of the turrets to make HAV drivers rage. Show me a video of sentinels strafe glitching consistently over several matches and I'll likely change my tune. But I'm having a hard time understanding how adding a proportionately smaller load increases a movement penalty that significantly. You can strafe glitch assault suits successfully but they are getting the smallest penalty? No really I'm confused, not trolling and open to logic. highest penality on scouts is fine, however medium suits should get lowest penality because they dont get the ewar or speed of a scout with out nerfing their own suit heavly.. as for sentinels i think they should have no penality as they are too fat to miss anyway.. the only case i think i know of mediums beign able to strafe glitch like a scout is with 0 plates just basic reactive or ferrosscale and sprint moduals ie they cut their ehp by half doing this anyway and they have a bigger hit box then scouts to begin with so i dont see the problem with medium suits.. the only problem was scouts. #[[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 2 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]]
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 2125	Posted - 2014.11.25 12:03:00 - [29] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Gameplay over lore really, I just want Sentinels to have a weakness so that an Assault can stand a chance by headshotting. Right now, the Sentinel wins 99% of the time. Using a mass calculation (substituting HP for mass), the sentinel simply moves to fast comparative to other frames. Without hurting those that don't armor stack and also making it a chore to play heavies, this was my proposal. Extenders were thrown into the mix because of the HP=Mass idea. I still don't understand the hubbub, obviously it would be less than plates, and similar as reactives as they give similar HP. shield does NOT = MASS. L2EVEBRO :P Shield should increase hitbox size reletive yet opposite to suit size so biggest hitbox hit should be scouts, smallest hitbox hit (or no hit to hitbox size) on heavy suits.. but either way the proposed changes only seem to F overmedium suits no matter what you do and makes shield tanking (SEE: CALDARI ) all the more nerfed.. like they already didnt get bent over by 1 SINGLE FLUX GRENADE #[[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 2 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]]
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2916	Posted - 2014.11.25 12:10:00 - [30] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Gameplay over lore really, I just want Sentinels to have a weakness so that an Assault can stand a chance by headshotting. Right now, the Sentinel wins 99% of the time. Using a mass calculation (substituting HP for mass), the sentinel simply moves to fast comparative to other frames. Without hurting those that don't armor stack and also making it a chore to play heavies, this was my proposal. Extenders were thrown into the mix because of the HP=Mass idea. I still don't understand the hubbub, obviously it would be less than plates, and similar as reactives as they give similar HP. Then make kin cats and myofibs give move speed Rattati... "Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.

Haerr 2009	Posted - 2014.11.25 12:18:00 - [31] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: HP=Mass idea <3 Please fix unfair OP Minmatar hack and speed and stamina bonuses. fighter jets
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 2125	Posted - 2014.11.25 12:20:00 - [32] - Quote Haerr wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: HP=Mass idea <3 Please fix unfair OP Minmatar hack and speed and stamina bonuses. no! they already pay for those bonuses with the poorest hp of the 4 races #[[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 2 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]]
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5325	Posted - 2014.11.25 12:46:00 - [33] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Gameplay over lore really, I just want Sentinels to have a weakness so that an Assault can stand a chance by headshotting. Right now, the Sentinel wins 99% of the time. Using a mass calculation (substituting HP for mass), the sentinel simply moves to fast comparative to other frames. Without hurting those that don't armor stack and also making it a chore to play heavies, this was my proposal. Extenders were thrown into the mix because of the HP=Mass idea. I still don't understand the hubbub, obviously it would be less than plates, and similar as reactives as they give similar HP. Then make kin cats and myofibs give move speed Rattati... Hit detection fixed before adding speed boosters. Once hit detection is unscrewed then I'll be askin for it right next to ya. But we need hit detection and inertia fixes first. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5325	Posted - 2014.11.25 12:51:00 - [34] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: .. the only problem was scouts. patently false statement. Scouts are the most OBVIOUS. You can strafe glitch an assault. Particularly the minmatar and caldari. Most people who haven't been doing it sInce beta assume that only scouts can pull this crap. You can do it in a sentinel to a tank. The difference is that the tank situation isn't glitching. It's exploiting heavy blaster firing mechanics and slow tracking speeds. But the net effect is the same. Rattati's strafe penalty will force me to rethink my favorite way to make tank drivers rage. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1297	Posted - 2014.11.25 15:20:00 - [35] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Gameplay over lore really, I just want Sentinels to have a weakness so that an Assault can stand a chance by headshotting. Right now, the Sentinel wins 99% of the time. Using a mass calculation (substituting HP for mass), the sentinel simply moves to fast comparative to other frames. Without hurting those that don't armor stack and also making it a chore to play heavies, this was my proposal. Extenders were thrown into the mix because of the HP=Mass idea. I still don't understand the hubbub, obviously it would be less than plates, and similar as reactives as they give similar HP. Couple thoughts on this... 1) it would logically seem that lighter frame suits would be more effected by armor / equipment than heavy suits. Heavy suits are built to mount large armor and weapons platform and their relative speed and agility which is naturally low should be minimally effected. 2) heavy suits are pretty much walking tanks now...if that was the intended purpose of the suit then they generally should win 1v1 on assaults inside the optimal HMG range. Forge gunning heavies usually die a quick death unless they are very skilled sidearm players. 3) in reference not hurting those that stack armor...I suspect the vast majority of the fits out there are max tanked. Hp and resists, I.e. Combat staying power is the defining attribute outside of the only suit to mount a heavy weapon. 4) in regards to shield mods having a movement penalty then you seriously need to look at by buffing the base movement speed of Minmatar and Caldari suits a bit since shield tanking is heavily predicated on mobility. That was always one of the supposed benefits of shield tanking and a slow footed shield player is often a dead one. 5) if shield extenders get a weight penalty...what about weapons? Or equipment? If your are going to calculate it this way then go all in...similar to most RPGs that have encumbrance penalties to movement based on total weight carried. Scouts can only carry the essentials, mediums a good mix, heavies have the strength to shoulder big loads easily such as HMG and additional armor. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 701	Posted - 2014.11.25 15:43:00 - [36] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Gameplay over lore really, I just want Sentinels to have a weakness so that an Assault can stand a chance by headshotting. Right now, the Sentinel wins 99% of the time. Using a mass calculation (substituting HP for mass), the sentinel simply moves to fast comparative to other frames. Without hurting those that don't armor stack and also making it a chore to play heavies, this was my proposal. Extenders were thrown into the mix because of the HP=Mass idea. I still don't understand the hubbub, obviously it would be less than plates, and similar as reactives as they give similar HP. dont view it as HP=mass plates have physical properties. thicker armor carries more mass. shield HP is energy, so there is no mass. even if you want to say that the tech that produces the shields must weigh more as you add more extenders, it wouldnt make sense because the tech used to gereate shields was already built into the suit. what youre doing is using more energy to increase shields. its light increasing the power on a flash light to produce a stronger beam of light. it would use up more PG honestly, and that would be it. if you said that shields increase mass over in the eve forums, theyd have a field day with you.
Jadd Hatchen KILL-EM-QUICK 684	Posted - 2014.11.25 16:04:00 - [37] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Gameplay over lore really, I just want Sentinels to have a weakness so that an Assault can stand a chance by headshotting. Right now, the Sentinel wins 99% of the time. Using a mass calculation (substituting HP for mass), the sentinel simply moves to fast comparative to other frames. Without hurting those that don't armor stack and also making it a chore to play heavies, this was my proposal. Extenders were thrown into the mix because of the HP=Mass idea. I still don't understand the hubbub, obviously it would be less than plates, and similar as reactives as they give similar HP. Here's the "hubub" made logically simple for you to understand CCP Rattati! First and foremost, if you give both the shield extenders AND the armor plates the SAME drawback, then it only ENCOURAGES people to DUAL TANK!!!! After all the extender is already penalizing your speed, so why not slap on some plates too and become even more of a brick!!! Now if plates penalizes speed and extenders penalize something like signature, then by dual tanking you incur two sets of penalties. This is why no one dual tanks in EVE. Second, why the hell have a choice in how you fit your dropsuits in this game? IF both shields and armor have the same effects/drawbacks then why even bother? They are the same, so just name them the same and be done with it. Just get rid of high/low slots and make one set of slots and all modules go there. Third, people CHOSE shields over armor for the specific reason that they wanted to be able to run fast. You are removing that choice from the game! Remember this is a sandbox where the players determine the outcomes and you are removing one of those tools. That easy enough for you to understand CCP Rattati?
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5330	Posted - 2014.11.25 16:09:00 - [38] - Quote This is actually why I prefer inertia fixes for dropsuits. Mention something that might nerf shields and armor on a similar vein and the stupid starts spewing. Rattati thanks for the response, I consider my question adequately answered. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 5061	Posted - 2014.11.25 16:11:00 - [39] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Extenders were thrown into the mix because of the HP=Mass idea. I still don't understand the hubbub, obviously it would be less than plates, and similar as reactives as they give similar HP. When extenders give the exact same penalty as armor, why fit anything but armor? Armor gets more HP anyway. This will further drive the armor metagame. Can we please give the infantry shield tankers SOMETHING?! My advice to you, playa...
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5330	Posted - 2014.11.25 16:15:00 - [40] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Extenders were thrown into the mix because of the HP=Mass idea. I still don't understand the hubbub, obviously it would be less than plates, and similar as reactives as they give similar HP. When extenders give the exact same penalty as armor, why fit anything but armor? Armor gets more HP anyway. This will further drive the armor metagame. Can we please give the infantry shield tankers SOMETHING?! I love how no one actually reads what he says. It's not the shields that add weight. Its the shield generator. Ripley he said shields will receive less penalty than plates with the lighter plates being similar to shields. But the change is to kill strafe glitching not nerf shields. Shield suits can glitch easily. It is a strafe penalty, not a regular movement penalty. Strafe glitching needs to be killed with fire. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.

Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment. 203	Posted - 2014.11.25 16:15:00 - [41] - Quote pagl1u M wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: s so that an Assault can stand a chance by headshotting. Right now, the Sentinel wins 99% of the time. Thank you for understanding this, I still have Faith in CCP only because of you. Why dont you add that strafe penalty only to sentinels and scouts, this will slow sentinels that stack hp and will nerf tanking scouts. Also Rattati please can you provide us more datas about most used suit in PC and pubs? (like the datas you have us about best killers of PC) Assaults and logis are part of the problem and need to be affected by this too. They can both strafe glitch through damage just like scouts (though to a lesser degree).
Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment. 203	Posted - 2014.11.25 16:19:00 - [42] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: Also, making tanked scouts strafe slower won't fix their dominance in pubs. As long as they can see an enemy coming from Xm away, both on their radar and on tacnet, and have a weapon that can kill even a heavy with 1200+HP in 1-3 hits, you will not fix their effectiveness. Especially in pubs, because the only viable countermeasure to scouts right now is running in blobs of people that actually pay attention, which is rare in pubs. Agreeeeed, there are other threads though discussing revamps of the scanning system which may provide a mechanics based counter to them, just go there and drop a message in there to make sure no suits get to drop under the highest precisions in the game and it will go a long way to getting the whole shotgun scout dominance crap fixed.
Jebus McKing Jebus Hates Scans 1076	Posted - 2014.11.25 16:28:00 - [43] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Jebus McKing wrote: Also, making tanked scouts strafe slower won't fix their dominance in pubs. As long as they can see an enemy coming from Xm away, both on their radar and on tacnet, and have a weapon that can kill even a heavy with 1200+HP in 1-3 hits, you will not fix their effectiveness. Especially in pubs, because the only viable countermeasure to scouts right now is running in blobs of people that actually pay attention, which is rare in pubs. Agreeeeed, there are other threads though discussing revamps of the scanning system which may provide a mechanics based counter to them, just go there and drop a message in there to make sure no suits get to drop under the highest precisions in the game and it will go a long way to getting the whole shotgun scout dominance crap fixed. I am in those threads. In all of them. And scans that can not be avoided are gross! It has to become easier to avoid scans! But enough of that. This is OT. Assault / Logi / Scout / Sentinel // @JebusMcKing G£î
Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment. 203	Posted - 2014.11.25 16:34:00 - [44] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Extenders were thrown into the mix because of the HP=Mass idea. I still don't understand the hubbub, obviously it would be less than plates, and similar as reactives as they give similar HP. When extenders give the exact same penalty as armor, why fit anything but armor? Armor gets more HP anyway. This will further drive the armor metagame. Can we please give the infantry shield tankers SOMETHING?! The speed penalty will be scaled to the HP of the module, so extenders will get ~half the penalty of the armor plate (a complex shield extender, 66hp, will have less penalty than a basic armor plate, 85hp). At least thats how I read the proposed changes. And to those saying this will encourage dual tanking: sure if you want to have insane movement penalties, why not. But my money is on that kind of fit being a really dumb idea if these changes are implemented. The only thing shield tankers need in this game is a tightening of the scrambler rifle damage profiles so it doesnt feel like a nuclear strike hit your shield every time you get shot a couple times by it.
Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment. 203	Posted - 2014.11.25 16:38:00 - [45] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: Vesta Opalus wrote: Jebus McKing wrote: Also, making tanked scouts strafe slower won't fix their dominance in pubs. As long as they can see an enemy coming from Xm away, both on their radar and on tacnet, and have a weapon that can kill even a heavy with 1200+HP in 1-3 hits, you will not fix their effectiveness. Especially in pubs, because the only viable countermeasure to scouts right now is running in blobs of people that actually pay attention, which is rare in pubs. Agreeeeed, there are other threads though discussing revamps of the scanning system which may provide a mechanics based counter to them, just go there and drop a message in there to make sure no suits get to drop under the highest precisions in the game and it will go a long way to getting the whole shotgun scout dominance crap fixed. I am in those threads. In all of them. And scans that can not be avoided are gross! It has to become easier to avoid scans! But enough of that. This is OT. Read the threads, everyone can avoid the longer ranged scans more easily, but every suit will have a stronger inner circle of scan defense that should reveal much more, and for high scan precision suits should (in my opinion) reveal anything. If you really have an issue with shotgun scouts 3 shotting heavies (not to mention making assaults and commandos useless), having suits that can dampen under anything and maintain high speed and decent scanning is the source of the problem, and it needs to be counterable by something in the game, strong short range scans are the natural balanced way of doing that. Consider it maybe.
Jadd Hatchen KILL-EM-QUICK 684	Posted - 2014.11.25 16:59:00 - [46] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Ripley Riley wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Extenders were thrown into the mix because of the HP=Mass idea. I still don't understand the hubbub, obviously it would be less than plates, and similar as reactives as they give similar HP. When extenders give the exact same penalty as armor, why fit anything but armor? Armor gets more HP anyway. This will further drive the armor metagame. Can we please give the infantry shield tankers SOMETHING?! The speed penalty will be scaled to the HP of the module, so extenders will get ~half the penalty of the armor plate (a complex shield extender, 66hp, will have less penalty than a basic armor plate, 85hp). At least thats how I read the proposed changes. And to those saying this will encourage dual tanking: sure if you want to have insane movement penalties, why not. But my money is on that kind of fit being a really dumb idea if these changes are implemented. The only thing shield tankers need in this game is a tightening of the scrambler rifle damage profiles so it doesnt feel like a nuclear strike hit your shield every time you get shot a couple times by it. Having the same penalty for two different modules only encourages that both modules be used since you are already taking the hit for one of them. It will encourage even more brick-tank style play and not diversify the module usage like CCP is hoping for. Instead they need to come up with a different penalty for the shields. That way if you do both armor AND shields you get two different penalties and not just one that you can overcome by being a better statistician than CCP is.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5332	Posted - 2014.11.25 17:03:00 - [47] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: Having the same penalty for two different modules only encourages that both modules be used since you are already taking the hit for one of them. It will encourage even more brick-tank style play and not diversify the module usage like CCP is hoping for. Instead they need to come up with a different penalty for the shields. That way if you do both armor AND shields you get two different penalties and not just one that you can overcome by being a better statistician than CCP is. yeah. I predict the people who believe that dual bricking will be the best way to go after the change are going to have a very bad day I remember dual tanking with 10% movement penalties on armor. Hilarity will ensue because penalties do NOT have stacking penalties. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment. 203	Posted - 2014.11.25 17:08:00 - [48] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: Vesta Opalus wrote: Ripley Riley wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Extenders were thrown into the mix because of the HP=Mass idea. I still don't understand the hubbub, obviously it would be less than plates, and similar as reactives as they give similar HP. When extenders give the exact same penalty as armor, why fit anything but armor? Armor gets more HP anyway. This will further drive the armor metagame. Can we please give the infantry shield tankers SOMETHING?! The speed penalty will be scaled to the HP of the module, so extenders will get ~half the penalty of the armor plate (a complex shield extender, 66hp, will have less penalty than a basic armor plate, 85hp). At least thats how I read the proposed changes. And to those saying this will encourage dual tanking: sure if you want to have insane movement penalties, why not. But my money is on that kind of fit being a really dumb idea if these changes are implemented. The only thing shield tankers need in this game is a tightening of the scrambler rifle damage profiles so it doesnt feel like a nuclear strike hit your shield every time you get shot a couple times by it. Having the same penalty for two different modules only encourages that both modules be used since you are already taking the hit for one of them. It will encourage even more brick-tank style play and not diversify the module usage like CCP is hoping for. Instead they need to come up with a different penalty for the shields. That way if you do both armor AND shields you get two different penalties and not just one that you can overcome by being a better statistician than CCP is. Im not sure how adding penalties to HP modules will encourage brick tank play. Its already a pretty dubious choice as it is, why do you think putting penalties on the modules would somehow magically make it more attractive?
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5332	Posted - 2014.11.25 17:14:00 - [49] - Quote because he never tried putting four proto plates on before the speed penalty was reduced. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 860	Posted - 2014.11.25 18:35:00 - [50] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Extenders were thrown into the mix because of the HP=Mass idea. I still don't understand the hubbub, obviously it would be less than plates, and similar as reactives as they give similar HP. You're touching on cornerstones of the gamedesign here. You can go and change stuff like this, but it'll alienate people. At least to me, having shield stacking not affect movement is as basic a principle as shields recharging by themselves or there being two types of fitting resources. We can change that sort of thing, but you won't be able to bring everyone on board with such changes. CCP Rattati wrote: Gameplay over lore really, I just want Sentinels to have a weakness so that an Assault can stand a chance by headshotting. Right now, the Sentinel wins 99% of the time. There's a simple total ehp vs. DPS calculation that will tell you why Sentinels are so terribly effective right now. I say this a lot, but I will again refer to the 1.8 changelog. Both Scouts and Sentinels were very much buffed in that patch and it gave us the situation we're currently in. IIRC Sentinels had their base hp increased and got a splash damage resistance that made mass drivers ineffective. The HMG has changed a bit too often for me to keep track. I'm trying to say that we don't need to modify basic design principles to fix problems that were caused by basic DPS and ehp buffs.

Kaeru Nayiri OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 213	Posted - 2014.11.25 18:54:00 - [51] - Quote I like the idea but there needs to be some incentive to stack shields over armor. Before: Shield Extenders increase HP by small amounts with a shield regen penalty. Shields come back up quickly between engagements. Armor Plates increase HP by large amounts with movement speed penalty. Armor is meant to be under constant repair before during and after engagements either on it's own or via teammates repair tool. Ideas for Future: Introduce a calculation where total effective HP = Mass leading to a speed penalty. Next, have that penalty STACK with current armor plate penalties. That way, shield extenders will still offer more speed+HP over armor and will not imbalance the choice between armor and shields. Strafe speeds drop ACROSS THE BOARD under the current meta and the meta BETWEEN shields and armor remains exactly the same. more HP = Less speed If that HP is shield = no further reduction in speed If that HP is armor = plates reduce speed as normal If armor stacking speed penalties become too severe, the individual speed penalties per plate can be revised.
Jadd Hatchen KILL-EM-QUICK 685	Posted - 2014.11.25 19:13:00 - [52] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: Vesta Opalus wrote: Ripley Riley wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Extenders were thrown into the mix because of the HP=Mass idea. I still don't understand the hubbub, obviously it would be less than plates, and similar as reactives as they give similar HP. When extenders give the exact same penalty as armor, why fit anything but armor? Armor gets more HP anyway. This will further drive the armor metagame. Can we please give the infantry shield tankers SOMETHING?! The speed penalty will be scaled to the HP of the module, so extenders will get ~half the penalty of the armor plate (a complex shield extender, 66hp, will have less penalty than a basic armor plate, 85hp). At least thats how I read the proposed changes. And to those saying this will encourage dual tanking: sure if you want to have insane movement penalties, why not. But my money is on that kind of fit being a really dumb idea if these changes are implemented. The only thing shield tankers need in this game is a tightening of the scrambler rifle damage profiles so it doesnt feel like a nuclear strike hit your shield every time you get shot a couple times by it. Having the same penalty for two different modules only encourages that both modules be used since you are already taking the hit for one of them. It will encourage even more brick-tank style play and not diversify the module usage like CCP is hoping for. Instead they need to come up with a different penalty for the shields. That way if you do both armor AND shields you get two different penalties and not just one that you can overcome by being a better statistician than CCP is. Im not sure how adding penalties to HP modules will encourage brick tank play. Its already a pretty dubious choice as it is, why do you think putting penalties on the modules would somehow magically make it more attractive? Please re-read... I said putting the SAME penalty on two DIFFERENT types of tanking will only encourages the usage of BOTH of them not one. Earlier I detailed this here: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2479861#post2479861
Jadd Hatchen KILL-EM-QUICK 685	Posted - 2014.11.25 19:16:00 - [53] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: Having the same penalty for two different modules only encourages that both modules be used since you are already taking the hit for one of them. It will encourage even more brick-tank style play and not diversify the module usage like CCP is hoping for. Instead they need to come up with a different penalty for the shields. That way if you do both armor AND shields you get two different penalties and not just one that you can overcome by being a better statistician than CCP is. yeah. I predict the people who believe that dual bricking will be the best way to go after the change are going to have a very bad day I remember dual tanking with 10% movement penalties on armor. Hilarity will ensue because penalties do NOT have stacking penalties. I know they don't however once you reach a point it no longer matters as much if you are a fraction slower than you were before.
Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment. 204	Posted - 2014.11.25 19:45:00 - [54] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: Please re-read... I said putting the SAME penalty on two DIFFERENT types of tanking will only encourages the usage of BOTH of them not one. Earlier I detailed this here: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2479861#post2479861 Well I dont think you have much of a point here, we'll see how the penalty breaks out. If you are Amar going 70% speed with 1k HP from armor tanking only and then stacking 3 extenders on top or whatever which takes you down to 55-60% speed, I think thats a big difference and probably doesnt have as much utility as throwing 3 damage mods in your highs. It all depends on what the numbers are, but I still think that adding penalties to something isnt going to make it more attractive. Just because you are going slower doesnt mean what speed you still have somehow has no value. Personally I've always thought speed penalties were pretty ineffective and I'd like them to just implement straight up stacking penalties to HP mods (each additional HP mod grants less HP total), but whatever, we'll see what happens.
Jebus McKing Jebus Hates Scans 1088	Posted - 2014.11.25 19:49:00 - [55] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Read the threads, everyone can avoid the longer ranged scans more easily, but every suit will have a stronger inner circle of scan defense that should reveal much more, and for high scan precision suits should (in my opinion) reveal anything. If you really have an issue with shotgun scouts 3 shotting heavies (not to mention making assaults and commandos useless), having suits that can dampen under anything and maintain high speed and decent scanning is the source of the problem, and it needs to be counterable by something in the game, strong short range scans are the natural balanced way of doing that. Consider it maybe. Why should you ever expect to have the luxury to see an enemies every step on a radar? How is it acceptable that one guy on the enemy team can blip for one second and reveal my position to his whole team? How is it acceptable that one guy can see me coming from +30m away, relay this information to his whole squad, and do all that without even using a single module? Anticipating your enemies next step should be a skill that you have to learn after many hours of playing a game, not a built-in feature. With scans that are too strong 1vs1 fights are boring because you can see exactly what you opponent is up to, and it is close to impossible to disengage. I don't have a problem with shotgun scouts 3-shotting heavies, if they have earned it through clever gameplay instead of waiting around a corner until the red arrow moves into range. At least give people the choice to avoid being scanned! Right now, as a Medium suit you don't have a choice because there is no way you can stop a Gal Logi with a proto scanner (not even focused) to reveal your position to the entire enemy team. If there is a Gal Logi on the enemy team, go HP or die! And people are still complaining that Gal Logi is useless because he can't easily scan scouts who actually care and devote their fitting towards not being scanned. Assault / Logi / Scout / Sentinel // @JebusMcKing G£î
Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment. 205	Posted - 2014.11.25 20:22:00 - [56] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: Vesta Opalus wrote: Read the threads, everyone can avoid the longer ranged scans more easily, but every suit will have a stronger inner circle of scan defense that should reveal much more, and for high scan precision suits should (in my opinion) reveal anything. If you really have an issue with shotgun scouts 3 shotting heavies (not to mention making assaults and commandos useless), having suits that can dampen under anything and maintain high speed and decent scanning is the source of the problem, and it needs to be counterable by something in the game, strong short range scans are the natural balanced way of doing that. Consider it maybe. Why should you ever expect to have the luxury to see an enemies every step on a radar? How is it acceptable that one guy on the enemy team can blip for one second and reveal my position to his whole team? How is it acceptable that one guy can see me coming from +30m away, relay this information to his whole squad, and do all that without even using a single module? Anticipating your enemies next step should be a skill that you have to learn after many hours of playing a game, not a built-in feature. With scans that are too strong 1vs1 fights are boring because you can see exactly what you opponent is up to, and it is close to impossible to disengage. I don't have a problem with shotgun scouts 3-shotting heavies, if they have earned it through clever gameplay instead of waiting around a corner until the red arrow moves into range. At least give people the choice to avoid being scanned! Right now, as a Medium suit you don't have a choice because there is no way you can stop a Gal Logi with a proto scanner (not even focused) to reveal your position to the entire enemy team. If there is a Gal Logi on the enemy team, go HP or die! And people are still complaining that Gal Logi is useless because he can't easily scan scouts who actually care and devote their fitting towards not being scanned. I would say either everyone should be subject to scans or everyone should be able to avoid them. The current problem is that one class of suits has immunity to scanning and all the other ones are subject to permascan. I have been looking at this from the perspective of making scouts match other suits, but I'd be just as happy if dampening worked for everyone. I personally dont think any scanning fit is useless right now, the problem is its OP against mediums/heavies and useless against scouts. Even if I fit a cal or amar scout with 100% scan modules I still cant find a properly fitted scout suit, even though they only need to use 2-3 lows and a cloak (except gallente who only needs to damps to avoid everything, which is also BS). God this is so off topic, Im going to stop talking about this in this thread, look forward to your reply though if you make one ;d
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5337	Posted - 2014.11.25 21:07:00 - [57] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: Having the same penalty for two different modules only encourages that both modules be used since you are already taking the hit for one of them. It will encourage even more brick-tank style play and not diversify the module usage like CCP is hoping for. Instead they need to come up with a different penalty for the shields. That way if you do both armor AND shields you get two different penalties and not just one that you can overcome by being a better statistician than CCP is. yeah. I predict the people who believe that dual bricking will be the best way to go after the change are going to have a very bad day I remember dual tanking with 10% movement penalties on armor. Hilarity will ensue because penalties do NOT have stacking penalties. I know they don't however once you reach a point it no longer matters as much if you are a fraction slower than you were before. 40% loss of movement speed is not a fraction. Plate movement speed penalties were additive, not multiplicative. this means 4 -10% movement plates = 40% speed loss. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
VikingKong iBUN T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 235	Posted - 2014.11.25 22:29:00 - [58] - Quote Someone at CCP should watch how a Dust character runs left and right really fast and try to copy this movement in real life, while firing a gun with any kind of accuracy. I bet you'll get tired really fast, look really stupid, probably fall over and probably won't hit your target very much. My point is that the way in which we can run to the side and then suddenly run in the other direction is all wrong, it's not actually humanly possible to do this at the speed the characters do in the game. The way people can move backwards and sideways at the same speed as they move forwards looks very unrealistic, and quite clearly is having a huge impact on gameplay. Sideways strafe speed should simply be reduced by a percentage less than your forward movement speed, for all suits. Shields are weak enough as it is without nerfing them further in order to fix a problem that has got nothing to do with shields.
Jadd Hatchen KILL-EM-QUICK 685	Posted - 2014.11.25 22:44:00 - [59] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: Please re-read... I said putting the SAME penalty on two DIFFERENT types of tanking will only encourages the usage of BOTH of them not one. Earlier I detailed this here: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2479861#post2479861 Well I dont think you have much of a point here, we'll see how the penalty breaks out. If you are Amar going 70% speed with 1k HP from armor tanking only and then stacking 3 extenders on top or whatever which takes you down to 55-60% speed, I think thats a big difference and probably doesnt have as much utility as throwing 3 damage mods in your highs. It all depends on what the numbers are, but I still think that adding penalties to something isnt going to make it more attractive. Just because you are going slower doesnt mean what speed you still have somehow has no value. Personally I've always thought speed penalties were pretty ineffective and I'd like them to just implement straight up stacking penalties to HP mods (each additional HP mod grants less HP total), but whatever, we'll see what happens. You're still not getting it... You say, "I still think that adding penalties to something isnt going to make it more attractive" I never said it makes it more attractive. I said that by only having one penalty, then thee is no difference between using shield tanking, armor tanking, and BOTH. Thus using BOTH is just as "attractive" as using only one or the other. Now if they had DIFFERENT penalties, then you would incur BOTH of those and then things become an actual trade-off as is often used in most game design theory. This is how choices and game balance is maintained in many games. I believe that if CCP does this change to BOTH armor and shields, then they remove that CHOICE from the game and upset one of the balancing points of the game-play.
Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment. 206	Posted - 2014.11.25 23:26:00 - [60] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: You're still not getting it... You say, "I still think that adding penalties to something isnt going to make it more attractive" I never said it makes it more attractive. I said that by only having one penalty, then thee is no difference between using shield tanking, armor tanking, and BOTH. Thus using BOTH is just as "attractive" as using only one or the other. Now if they had DIFFERENT penalties, then you would incur BOTH of those and then things become an actual trade-off as is often used in most game design theory. This is how choices and game balance is maintained in many games. I believe that if CCP does this change to BOTH armor and shields, then they remove that CHOICE from the game and upset one of the balancing points of the game-play. No, I get what you are saying. I just think its absurd. Adding penalties to modules is not going to make using those modules more attractive. Maybe different penalties would be more appropriate in terms of lore or some aesthetic sense of game design, but what we're trying to do here is balance raw HP against the ability to Matrix dodge your way out of damage. If shields don't incur a strafing penalty just like armor does then min scout/caldari assault/caldair scout/min assault will continue to be able to exploit strafing v. hit detection glitching. And if you brick tank with both shield and armor, you will take a larger cumulative strafing penalty for both and be very ineffective at dodging bullets in a firefight. As long as I ignore the fact that the root issue of hit detection against strafing suits isnt being fixed, I don't see a problem here.

Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2917	Posted - 2014.11.25 23:34:00 - [61] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Gameplay over lore really, I just want Sentinels to have a weakness so that an Assault can stand a chance by headshotting. Right now, the Sentinel wins 99% of the time. Using a mass calculation (substituting HP for mass), the sentinel simply moves to fast comparative to other frames. Without hurting those that don't armor stack and also making it a chore to play heavies, this was my proposal. Extenders were thrown into the mix because of the HP=Mass idea. I still don't understand the hubbub, obviously it would be less than plates, and similar as reactives as they give similar HP. Then make kin cats and myofibs give move speed Rattati... Hit detection fixed before adding speed boosters. Once hit detection is unscrewed then I'll be askin for it right next to ya. But we need hit detection and inertia fixes first. Fair enough. What I really want is a hit detection fix for my SG. It is **** even with auto aim on. The best tactic with it is just to strafe back and forth and fire rapidly because shot damage calculation is so delayed that if you shoot dead on it rarely deals full damage. "Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5347	Posted - 2014.11.25 23:44:00 - [62] - Quote shotguns don't benefit from aim assist just like FG and HMG EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Sir Dukey Murphys-Law General Tso's Alliance 1155	Posted - 2014.11.26 03:49:00 - [63] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Gameplay over lore really, I just want Sentinels to have a weakness so that an Assault can stand a chance by headshotting. Right now, the Sentinel wins 99% of the time. Using a mass calculation (substituting HP for mass), the sentinel simply moves to fast comparative to other frames. Without hurting those that don't armor stack and also making it a chore to play heavies, this was my proposal. Extenders were thrown into the mix because of the HP=Mass idea. I still don't understand the hubbub, obviously it would be less than plates, and similar as reactives as they give similar HP. It's not the heavy, it's that death ray of a gun they carry. Also, nobody wants penalty with the extenders because it is an unnecessary nerf. I am sick and tired of you unnecessarily nerfing things. I.E. ADS RoF, Projectile to -15%/+15% instead of -10%/+10%, Nerfing passive scans while cloaking. ETC. Chocolate Juice
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2349	Posted - 2014.11.26 06:23:00 - [64] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Gameplay over lore really, I just want Sentinels to have a weakness so that an Assault can stand a chance by headshotting. Right now, the Sentinel wins 99% of the time. Using a mass calculation (substituting HP for mass), the sentinel simply moves to fast comparative to other frames. Without hurting those that don't armor stack and also making it a chore to play heavies, this was my proposal. Extenders were thrown into the mix because of the HP=Mass idea. I still don't understand the hubbub, obviously it would be less than plates, and similar as reactives as they give similar HP. Then make kin cats and myofibs give move speed Rattati... Hit detection fixed before adding speed boosters. Once hit detection is unscrewed then I'll be askin for it right next to ya. But we need hit detection and inertia fixes first. Fair enough. What I really want is a hit detection fix for my SG. It is **** even with auto aim on. The best tactic with it is just to strafe back and forth and fire rapidly because shot damage calculation is so delayed that if you shoot dead on it rarely deals full damage. Tbh i don't think we're ever going to get a hit detection fix on the PS3 guys. If that's the case then all we can do is nerf movement. Minmatar are going the pay the bulk of the price for this. I'd really like to see the changes to scanning, tacnet directional arrows, and removal of the chevron implemented first and given a few weeks to see what they do to the scout metrics. They're changes that need to happen anyway and there's an expectation from many respected players that they will have a significant impact on the combat effectiveness of scouts. PSN: RationalSpark
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 431	Posted - 2014.11.26 06:24:00 - [65] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Gameplay over lore really, I just want Sentinels to have a weakness so that an Assault can stand a chance by headshotting. Right now, the Sentinel wins 99% of the time. Using a mass calculation (substituting HP for mass), the sentinel simply moves to fast comparative to other frames. Without hurting those that don't armor stack and also making it a chore to play heavies, this was my proposal. Extenders were thrown into the mix because of the HP=Mass idea. I still don't understand the hubbub, obviously it would be less than plates, and similar as reactives as they give similar HP. Sentintels have several weaknesses that you guys are simply not exploiting. The biggest weakness to the Sentinel is his large hitbox and low strafe speed. Sentinels take more damage from incoming fire than any other suit. More bullets hit them, and more of those bullets are headshots. Why are scouts so hard to kill? They take less damage from incoming fire. Sentinels are their polar opposite. So why are Sentinels winning at point blank? Well, are they not designed for that? If you don't want them designed for that anymore change them. If you want them to stay dominant in close quarters than change the things that mitigate sentinel weaknesses. Those are in no specific order: --Large majority of objective maps being enclosed. Notice Sentinels don't do so well in Ambush do to the more open nature of the map. Change map design to be somewhat more open. -They are getting reps. Weaken the rep tool. The fact a Sentinel can get hundreds of HP per second while under fire is silly. Weaken the rep tool a LOT (but don't change WP generation -- the Logis still deserve their points for supporting their teammates) -Their weakness of not being able to see **** on the tacnet is pretty much void do to their team. Changes in the Ewar system and the tacnet may change this to actually being a big deal. -No limit on heavy spawn time from uplinks means they can be back in the fight literally 3 seconds after dieing. -Np limit to heavy vehicle operation means they can drop their own lav and drive from location to location (that open area where they are supposed to die) and bypass that area where their range weakness matters. But seriously -- if you change the first two things I mentioned, ESPECIALLY number 2 about the rep tool, you will find heavies no where near as dominant due to the fickleness of the HMG and dispersion. Edit note: an HMG sentinel doesn't win 99% of the time against anything. Less hyperbole please...
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2237	Posted - 2014.11.26 06:40:00 - [66] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Gameplay over lore really, I just want Sentinels to have a weakness so that an Assault can stand a chance by headshotting. Right now, the Sentinel wins 99% of the time. Using a mass calculation (substituting HP for mass), the sentinel simply moves to fast comparative to other frames. Without hurting those that don't armor stack and also making it a chore to play heavies, this was my proposal. Extenders were thrown into the mix because of the HP=Mass idea. I still don't understand the hubbub, obviously it would be less than plates, and similar as reactives as they give similar HP. Because shield suits have less health, which means getting into cover faster is more important. As well, lore-wise extenders weigh next to nothing. Plus, giving them the same penalty harms more suits than it fixes. A scan profile change makes sense, because they increase electric signals, thus increasing dB. But movement penalty? Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 5088	Posted - 2014.11.26 07:06:00 - [67] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Gameplay over lore really, I just want Sentinels to have a weakness so that an Assault can stand a chance by headshotting. Right now, the Sentinel wins 99% of the time. Using a mass calculation (substituting HP for mass), the sentinel simply moves to fast comparative to other frames. Without hurting those that don't armor stack and also making it a chore to play heavies, this was my proposal. Extenders were thrown into the mix because of the HP=Mass idea. I still don't understand the hubbub, obviously it would be less than plates, and similar as reactives as they give similar HP. Mitigation through movement results in more virtual HP than plate stacking. And that's before we get into silly things like faster regeneration between fights, as well as the ability to avoid damage entirely through E-war. So I don't believe mass calculation is an entirely fair way of doing things. Unless, of course, you want to give us another HP buff. Gonna guess the answer to that is no. It's my fault FA exists. Direct your rage to me.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5348	Posted - 2014.11.26 08:43:00 - [68] - Quote @imp smash No sentinels weren't designed as the CQC kings. They got saddled with the "tank" label in the tank/dps/healer trinity. They got made as they are because people raged that the very concept of an HMG with a good effective range was inherently unfair. They screamed and ranted and raged that the HMG needed to be point-blank only. They got their wish. So now because the high HP low DPS only works against mobs programmed to attack the tank for whatever reason the HMG has continually had to be dialled up to insane levels because everyone insists that sentinels need to be for CQC and utterly ineffective at longer ranges. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 434	Posted - 2014.11.27 04:14:00 - [69] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: @imp smash No sentinels weren't designed as the CQC kings. They got saddled with the "tank" label in the tank/dps/healer trinity. They got made as they are because people raged that the very concept of an HMG with a good effective range was inherently unfair. They screamed and ranted and raged that the HMG needed to be point-blank only. They got their wish. So now because the high HP low DPS only works against mobs programmed to attack the tank for whatever reason the HMG has continually had to be dialled up to insane levels because everyone insists that sentinels need to be for CQC and utterly ineffective at longer ranges. Honestly mate, Says you. That's your assertion and your opinion. But it is completely arbitrary. Previous existance of heavies and how they worked suggests otherwise. Only suggests though.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5378	Posted - 2014.11.27 07:49:00 - [70] - Quote I saw how they wound up tgere In beta and followed the development process. They used to have range similar to rifles and a turn speed penalty that made them vulnerable to CQC. They neutered the range and then realized that they had rendered the suits nonfunctional so they normalized turn speeds. I don't talk out my ass usually. Facts and such are far easier to troll with. No one expects facts. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.



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