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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Vesta Opalus
Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment.
202
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Posted - 2014.11.24 20:43:00 -
[1] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:I'm actually fine with them. What I don't understand is why the Sentinel is being given the highest penalty with scouts.
Strafe dodging fire in a fatsuit is hilarious because it doesn't really help.
The only place you can do it is in front of a tank turret up close but that can be fixed by increasing turret rotation speed by 10% and slightly increasing large blaster rate of fire.
I know because I do it a lot. I exploit the firing mechanics of the turrets to make HAV drivers rage.
Show me a video of sentinels strafe glitching consistently over several matches and I'll likely change my tune.
But I'm having a hard time understanding how adding a proportionately smaller load increases a movement penalty that significantly.
You can strafe glitch assault suits successfully but they are getting the smallest penalty?
No really I'm confused, not trolling and open to logic.
Sentinels can and do strafe effectively. If you throw one strafing sentinel against one moving straight forward or standing still, the one standing still will lose every single time. Its not like scout or assault strafing, but it is strafing and it is effective (certainly far more effective than standing still) |
Vesta Opalus
Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment.
203
|
Posted - 2014.11.25 07:40:00 -
[2] - Quote
Imp Smash wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:I'm actually fine with them. What I don't understand is why the Sentinel is being given the highest penalty with scouts.
Strafe dodging fire in a fatsuit is hilarious because it doesn't really help.
The only place you can do it is in front of a tank turret up close but that can be fixed by increasing turret rotation speed by 10% and slightly increasing large blaster rate of fire.
I know because I do it a lot. I exploit the firing mechanics of the turrets to make HAV drivers rage.
Show me a video of sentinels strafe glitching consistently over several matches and I'll likely change my tune.
But I'm having a hard time understanding how adding a proportionately smaller load increases a movement penalty that significantly.
You can strafe glitch assault suits successfully but they are getting the smallest penalty?
No really I'm confused, not trolling and open to logic. Sentinels can and do strafe effectively. If you throw one strafing sentinel against one moving straight forward or standing still, the one standing still will lose every single time. Its not like scout or assault strafing, but it is strafing and it is effective (certainly far more effective than standing still) The issue with strafing is not the fact that moving side to side makes you harder to hit. This exists on *literally* every shooter ever. Even oldschool Rainbow Six had it. In dust high speeds cause hit detection to fail. Or hit detection to not fail and displayed objects to fail. Or both. No one is exactly sure what part of the equation is breaking -- but you can put a shot on a high speed suit, get your hit sound, get your hit marker, get a shield flash, have a red reticule, literally everything in the game. And sometimes it won't count as damage. Even though you hit them plainly. That's the problem everyone is having. Scouts, being high speed naturally, are currently much harder to kill than their HP would suggest. Some assaults can do it too. Sentinels cannot. They can strafe, and if they zig when you think they were gonna zag you will miss and that is your bad. or their good. or whatever. But if you hit a sentinel you will always get the damage credit for it. Hence sentinels are not broken when it comes to taking damage, and do not need a dodge nerf.
Agreed, I dont think strafing sentinels are hilarious though, since it does help them win firefights, didnt want any new people to sit there trying to stand still going toe to toe with another sentinel wondering why they were losing every fight. Thats what I was responding to. |
Vesta Opalus
Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment.
203
|
Posted - 2014.11.25 16:15:00 -
[3] - Quote
pagl1u M wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:s so that an Assault can stand a chance by headshotting. Right now, the Sentinel wins 99% of the time.
Thank you for understanding this, I still have Faith in CCP only because of you. Why dont you add that strafe penalty only to sentinels and scouts, this will slow sentinels that stack hp and will nerf tanking scouts. Also Rattati please can you provide us more datas about most used suit in PC and pubs? (like the datas you have us about best killers of PC)
Assaults and logis are part of the problem and need to be affected by this too. They can both strafe glitch through damage just like scouts (though to a lesser degree). |
Vesta Opalus
Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment.
203
|
Posted - 2014.11.25 16:19:00 -
[4] - Quote
Jebus McKing wrote:
Also, making tanked scouts strafe slower won't fix their dominance in pubs. As long as they can see an enemy coming from Xm away, both on their radar and on tacnet, and have a weapon that can kill even a heavy with 1200+HP in 1-3 hits, you will not fix their effectiveness. Especially in pubs, because the only viable countermeasure to scouts right now is running in blobs of people that actually pay attention, which is rare in pubs.
Agreeeeed, there are other threads though discussing revamps of the scanning system which may provide a mechanics based counter to them, just go there and drop a message in there to make sure no suits get to drop under the highest precisions in the game and it will go a long way to getting the whole shotgun scout dominance crap fixed. |
Vesta Opalus
Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment.
203
|
Posted - 2014.11.25 16:34:00 -
[5] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Extenders were thrown into the mix because of the HP=Mass idea. I still don't understand the hubbub, obviously it would be less than plates, and similar as reactives as they give similar HP. When extenders give the exact same penalty as armor, why fit anything but armor? Armor gets more HP anyway. This will further drive the armor metagame. Can we please give the infantry shield tankers SOMETHING?!
The speed penalty will be scaled to the HP of the module, so extenders will get ~half the penalty of the armor plate (a complex shield extender, 66hp, will have less penalty than a basic armor plate, 85hp). At least thats how I read the proposed changes. And to those saying this will encourage dual tanking: sure if you want to have insane movement penalties, why not. But my money is on that kind of fit being a really dumb idea if these changes are implemented.
The only thing shield tankers need in this game is a tightening of the scrambler rifle damage profiles so it doesnt feel like a nuclear strike hit your shield every time you get shot a couple times by it. |
Vesta Opalus
Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment.
203
|
Posted - 2014.11.25 16:38:00 -
[6] - Quote
Jebus McKing wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:Jebus McKing wrote:
Also, making tanked scouts strafe slower won't fix their dominance in pubs. As long as they can see an enemy coming from Xm away, both on their radar and on tacnet, and have a weapon that can kill even a heavy with 1200+HP in 1-3 hits, you will not fix their effectiveness. Especially in pubs, because the only viable countermeasure to scouts right now is running in blobs of people that actually pay attention, which is rare in pubs.
Agreeeeed, there are other threads though discussing revamps of the scanning system which may provide a mechanics based counter to them, just go there and drop a message in there to make sure no suits get to drop under the highest precisions in the game and it will go a long way to getting the whole shotgun scout dominance crap fixed. I am in those threads. In all of them. And scans that can not be avoided are gross! It has to become easier to avoid scans! But enough of that. This is OT.
Read the threads, everyone can avoid the longer ranged scans more easily, but every suit will have a stronger inner circle of scan defense that should reveal much more, and for high scan precision suits should (in my opinion) reveal anything. If you really have an issue with shotgun scouts 3 shotting heavies (not to mention making assaults and commandos useless), having suits that can dampen under anything and maintain high speed and decent scanning is the source of the problem, and it needs to be counterable by something in the game, strong short range scans are the natural balanced way of doing that. Consider it maybe. |
Vesta Opalus
Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment.
203
|
Posted - 2014.11.25 17:08:00 -
[7] - Quote
Jadd Hatchen wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:Ripley Riley wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Extenders were thrown into the mix because of the HP=Mass idea. I still don't understand the hubbub, obviously it would be less than plates, and similar as reactives as they give similar HP. When extenders give the exact same penalty as armor, why fit anything but armor? Armor gets more HP anyway. This will further drive the armor metagame. Can we please give the infantry shield tankers SOMETHING?! The speed penalty will be scaled to the HP of the module, so extenders will get ~half the penalty of the armor plate (a complex shield extender, 66hp, will have less penalty than a basic armor plate, 85hp). At least thats how I read the proposed changes. And to those saying this will encourage dual tanking: sure if you want to have insane movement penalties, why not. But my money is on that kind of fit being a really dumb idea if these changes are implemented. The only thing shield tankers need in this game is a tightening of the scrambler rifle damage profiles so it doesnt feel like a nuclear strike hit your shield every time you get shot a couple times by it. Having the same penalty for two different modules only encourages that both modules be used since you are already taking the hit for one of them. It will encourage even more brick-tank style play and not diversify the module usage like CCP is hoping for. Instead they need to come up with a different penalty for the shields. That way if you do both armor AND shields you get two different penalties and not just one that you can overcome by being a better statistician than CCP is.
Im not sure how adding penalties to HP modules will encourage brick tank play. Its already a pretty dubious choice as it is, why do you think putting penalties on the modules would somehow magically make it more attractive? |
Vesta Opalus
Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment.
204
|
Posted - 2014.11.25 19:45:00 -
[8] - Quote
Well I dont think you have much of a point here, we'll see how the penalty breaks out. If you are Amar going 70% speed with 1k HP from armor tanking only and then stacking 3 extenders on top or whatever which takes you down to 55-60% speed, I think thats a big difference and probably doesnt have as much utility as throwing 3 damage mods in your highs.
It all depends on what the numbers are, but I still think that adding penalties to something isnt going to make it more attractive. Just because you are going slower doesnt mean what speed you still have somehow has no value.
Personally I've always thought speed penalties were pretty ineffective and I'd like them to just implement straight up stacking penalties to HP mods (each additional HP mod grants less HP total), but whatever, we'll see what happens. |
Vesta Opalus
Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment.
205
|
Posted - 2014.11.25 20:22:00 -
[9] - Quote
Jebus McKing wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:Read the threads, everyone can avoid the longer ranged scans more easily, but every suit will have a stronger inner circle of scan defense that should reveal much more, and for high scan precision suits should (in my opinion) reveal anything. If you really have an issue with shotgun scouts 3 shotting heavies (not to mention making assaults and commandos useless), having suits that can dampen under anything and maintain high speed and decent scanning is the source of the problem, and it needs to be counterable by something in the game, strong short range scans are the natural balanced way of doing that. Consider it maybe. Why should you ever expect to have the luxury to see an enemies every step on a radar? How is it acceptable that one guy on the enemy team can *blip* for one second and reveal my position to his whole team? How is it acceptable that one guy can see me coming from +30m away, relay this information to his whole squad, and do all that without even using a single module? Anticipating your enemies next step should be a skill that you have to learn after many hours of playing a game, not a built-in feature. With scans that are too strong 1vs1 fights are boring because you can see exactly what you opponent is up to, and it is close to impossible to disengage. I don't have a problem with shotgun scouts 3-shotting heavies, if they have earned it through clever gameplay instead of waiting around a corner until the red arrow moves into range. At least give people the choice to avoid being scanned! Right now, as a Medium suit you don't have a choice because there is no way you can stop a Gal Logi with a proto scanner (not even focused) to reveal your position to the entire enemy team. If there is a Gal Logi on the enemy team, go HP or die! And people are still complaining that Gal Logi is useless because he can't easily scan scouts who actually care and devote their fitting towards not being scanned.
I would say either everyone should be subject to scans or everyone should be able to avoid them. The current problem is that one class of suits has immunity to scanning and all the other ones are subject to permascan.
I have been looking at this from the perspective of making scouts match other suits, but I'd be just as happy if dampening worked for everyone.
I personally dont think any scanning fit is useless right now, the problem is its OP against mediums/heavies and useless against scouts. Even if I fit a cal or amar scout with 100% scan modules I still cant find a properly fitted scout suit, even though they only need to use 2-3 lows and a cloak (except gallente who only needs to damps to avoid everything, which is also BS).
God this is so off topic, Im going to stop talking about this in this thread, look forward to your reply though if you make one ;d |
Vesta Opalus
Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment.
206
|
Posted - 2014.11.25 23:26:00 -
[10] - Quote
Jadd Hatchen wrote: You're still not getting it... You say, "I still think that adding penalties to something isnt going to make it more attractive" *I* never said it makes it more attractive. I said that by only having one penalty, then thee is no difference between using shield tanking, armor tanking, and BOTH. Thus using BOTH is just as "attractive" as using only one or the other. Now if they had DIFFERENT penalties, then you would incur BOTH of those and then things become an actual trade-off as is often used in most game design theory. This is how choices and game balance is maintained in many games. I believe that if CCP does this change to BOTH armor and shields, then they remove that CHOICE from the game and upset one of the balancing points of the game-play.
No, I get what you are saying. I just think its absurd.
Adding penalties to modules is not going to make using those modules more attractive.
Maybe different penalties would be more appropriate in terms of lore or some aesthetic sense of game design, but what we're trying to do here is balance raw HP against the ability to Matrix dodge your way out of damage. If shields don't incur a strafing penalty just like armor does then min scout/caldari assault/caldair scout/min assault will continue to be able to exploit strafing v. hit detection glitching.
And if you brick tank with both shield and armor, you will take a larger cumulative strafing penalty for both and be very ineffective at dodging bullets in a firefight.
As long as I ignore the fact that the root issue of hit detection against strafing suits isnt being fixed, I don't see a problem here. |
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