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To Rattati: the shotgun tested with proposal. SCIENCE INSIDE!!

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Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2120	Posted - 2014.11.09 20:16:00 - [1] - Quote First, a shout out to my test subjects Boss SobanRe and Mexx Dust-Slayer. Without them this test would never have happened. The purpose: To determine how many pellets a shotgun blast has, and from there calculate a shotguns total damage and DPS. The test: I used a standard shotgun with no proficiency and no damage mods. This shotgun was used on all tests. Test subjects used Sentinel cko with full rack of extenders, and one militia heavy frame with 1 complex extender. Procedure: record subjects total shield health before shot, record efficiency of shotgun. Fire one shot into body from 0m away (standing right against him) to ensure all pellets impact subject and none accidentally hit the head. Record shield after shot. Results were as follows. 1st test: Sentinel cko. 835 total shield, 93% efficiency. Shield dropped to 386 after one shot. Total damage: 449 2nd test: Sentinel cko. 911 total shield, 93% efficiency. Shield dropped to 462 after one shot. Total damage: 449 3rd test: Militia minmatar heavy frame. 585 shields, 110% efficiency. Shield dropped to 57. Total damage: 528 Results: It appears that the standard shotgun does 480 damage assuming all pellets impact. With a damage of 40 per pellet, this gives a total of 12 pellets in a single blast. Now for the math. (480 damage x 85.71 RPM)/60 seconds gives a dps of 685.68 DPS from a standard shotgun. As a comparison, the standard HMG has a DPS of 720. Here lies the issue: Not only does the shotgun have a high alpha strike, it also has one of the highest DPS of any weapon. A standard shotgun has comparable DPS to an HMG. By another comparison, the Boundless CR has a DPS of 594 assuming you time all the bursts perfectly. A proto weapon is being outDPSed by a standard weapon by almost 100 DPS. This is where a lot of people have issue. 2 shots for a total of 960 damage can be delivered in under a second. 960 damage in a second from a standard weapon. However, the shotgun also has an extremely short range. 4m optimal range is ridiculous, you have to be hugging someone in order to apply full damage. This is why shotgun scouts are so annoying. There high speed allows them to close the distance quicker, negating this disadvantage. Thus the insane amount of shotgun scouts we have today. My proposal has two objectives. A. To make the shotgun retain its high alpha strike, while lowering its DPS. B. To make the shotgun useful on frames other than scouts. Here are my changes: 1. Reduce rate of fire considerably. If possible, I would have the shotgun ** between rounds. The animation for it is seen at the end of the shotgun reload. Barring that, a ROF of 50.00 RPM brings the total DPS to about 400. A secondary number would be a ROF of 62.50, which gives a DPS of 500. NOTE THAT THIS IS A STANDARD WEAPON WE ARE TALKING ABOUT.** This allows the shotgun to have a high alpha strike, while being low DPS. This allows a suit time to respond to a shotgun threat, assuming it isn't killed outright. 2. Increase range to 15m. If necessary, increase to 20m. This means a shotgun can engage targets from farther away, meaning you don't have to be right next to them in order to apply full damage. With this change, we can have other suits, like mediums and commandos, be viable when using a shotgun, promoting diversity. In all, the goal is to reduce the shotguns ability to kill anything that isn't a bricked sentinel in under a second by increasing the time between shots, and to increase the range so that other frames have an opportunity to use it without being gimped. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Terry Webber Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 485	Posted - 2014.11.09 20:35:00 - [2] - Quote Pretty convincing data, Alena. I would love to have this kind of change to the shotgun while still being viable for sneak attacks. It would help cut down the surplus of shotgun scouts in this game.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4743	Posted - 2014.11.09 20:39:00 - [3] - Quote show me the spreadsheet. Please use comparisons to other weapon DPS rates for reference and comparison. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2122	Posted - 2014.11.09 20:41:00 - [4] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: show me the spreadsheet. Please use comparisons to other weapon DPS rates for reference and comparison. Spreadsheet inbound. Give me a few minutes. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
XxGhazbaranxX Endless Hatred 1829	Posted - 2014.11.09 20:59:00 - [5] - Quote These are some sound ideas and you make a compelling argument. The increase in range would offset by the spread of the blast, so in theory you would do less damage, even if the efficiency is 100%. This would also, like you said, make the weapon viable for other frames that dont have the ability to close the gap like scouts can. BREACH SHOTTY NEEDS REWORK Another thing that we also have to rebalance is the breach shotgun. This weapon has 1/4 the clip size, a significantly reduced RoF ( its painfull to actually try to get the second shot to fire ) and only about 10% more damage. Plasma Cannon Advocate Dust 514 Survivor
XxVEXESxX 41	Posted - 2014.11.09 21:01:00 - [6] - Quote Dont think range is an issue. I get killed at 8m on average anyways. Its the dps for sure. those numbers should be on a lvl 5 commando with a proto shotgun and a damage mod, not on the weapons baseline stats. PSN: XxVEXESxX Minmatar loyalist MK.0 A/C/L
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 5735	Posted - 2014.11.09 21:07:00 - [7] - Quote I don't mind the proposal, except for the range bit. But I also super hate shotguns so am not the best to consider it. 1.9 Where cloaked scouts give way to tanked scouts. Problem solved?
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2124	Posted - 2014.11.09 21:10:00 - [8] - Quote XxVEXESxX wrote: Dont think range is an issue. I get killed at 8m on average anyways. Its the dps for sure. those numbers should be on a lvl 5 commando with a proto shotgun and a damage mod, not on the weapons baseline stats. But the range is only mitigatable on scout suits. this shouldn't be. It should be viable on a commando frame as much as a scout frame. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2124	Posted - 2014.11.09 21:11:00 - [9] - Quote OP updated with spreadsheet. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Benjamin Ciscko Fatal Absolution 3452	Posted - 2014.11.09 21:20:00 - [10] - Quote Why does an alpha weapon have high RoF? Fatal Absolution Director

Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 111	Posted - 2014.11.09 21:50:00 - [11] - Quote Barbershop test had similar findings ... * Full damage potential only reached point-blank range. * Damage output declines exponentially outside of 4-5m. * Damage variance increases with range. Questions for OP: 1) By your math, how many shotgun blasts are needed to kill a well-fit AM sentinel? 2) Why is it a problem that a weapon with a 4m range can out-DPS weapons with 10x - 20x that range? 3) Assuming range was increased and RoF decreased, why use a shotgun if it has far less range and similar DPS to Fine Rifles?
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2126	Posted - 2014.11.09 22:04:00 - [12] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Barbershop test had similar findings ... * Full damage potential only reached point-blank range. * Damage output declines exponentially outside of 4-5m. * Damage variance increases with range. Questions for OP: 1) By your math, how many shotgun blasts are needed to kill a well-fit AM sentinel? 2) Why is it a problem that a weapon with a 4m range can out-DPS weapons with 10x - 20x that range? 3) Assuming range was increased and RoF decreased, why use a shotgun if it has far less range and similar DPS to Fine Rifles? 1) At most, a full tank AmSentinel would take 4 shots to down. This is a total of 1920 damage. Of course, 3 shots would leave the AmSentinel with under 300 armor, which is easy to eat through with an SMG. 2) Because only scouts can negate this disadvantage. A commando should be just as viable as a scout with a shotgun. In addition, the shotgun TTK with my changes is still lower than the rifle TTK because of the large alpha damage. ie: the shotgun still kills faster than the rifles, because it takes far fewer shots to kill than the rifles do. 3) Because it has much higher alpha. Many suits would still be OHKO, most would take 2, which is still less TTK than a comparable rifle, and a Sentinel would still take 3 or 4, only now it would have comparable TTK to a rifle. In short, the range increase and ROF decrease means that more suits can use it, and means that you can't put out near 1000 damage in under a second. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
XxVEXESxX 41	Posted - 2014.11.09 22:10:00 - [13] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: XxVEXESxX wrote: Dont think range is an issue. I get killed at 8m on average anyways. Its the dps for sure. those numbers should be on a lvl 5 commando with a proto shotgun and a damage mod, not on the weapons baseline stats. But the range is only mitigatable on scout suits. this shouldn't be. It should be viable on a commando frame as much as a scout frame. Shotguns should always be CQC. 15m-20m is just making it like the ion pistol. If a commando could camp a corner with EWAR it would work wouldn't it? that was purposed by Ratatti for EWAR in Features. Double kinkat on a commando gets him over Med Frame Sprint right? that can be done now but with no EWAR. Scouts do it no matter the terrain due to their movement and EWAR. Seems we both found the problem. Its the scout combination. If it took scouts 4 shots to do what a commando can do in 2 then its fixed. Nerf the shotgun alpha but balance the changes around the commando where its respect is due. Range Dominance. Hope this helps. PSN: XxVEXESxX Minmatar loyalist MK.0 A/C/L
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 62	Posted - 2014.11.10 00:00:00 - [14] - Quote Balance the shotgun in tiers. MLT / Basic = 4 pellet (0.410 sg) Advanced = 8 pellet (20 gauge) Prototype = 12 pellet (12 gauge) Officer = 14 pellet (10 gauge) Or, reduce the DMG per pellet MLT / Basic = 10 DMG / pellet (# 4 birdshot) Advance = 20 DMG / pellet (#2 birdshot) Prototype = 40 DMG / pellet (#00 buckshot) Officer = 50 DMG / pellet (12 gauge slug) Additionally, make 2 variants at advanced level and up, full choke for range and open cylinder for close crowd control. Both would still be instant kill at hugging distance.
manboar thunder fist Dead Man's Game RUST415 223	Posted - 2014.11.10 00:05:00 - [15] - Quote Kind of ridiculous though when you get 2 shots into a heavy and they turn around and spray you down in half a second before the third can be fired. Shotguns need high dps because range is a huge limiting factor, as range vs dps is the best way to create balance the shotgun should have highest dps of all weapons. The heavy machine gun needs a dps/overheat nerf in order to reduce heavy spam. With less heavies being spammed, less shot gunners need to be present, as they are counters to each other. A heavy can kill any other suit 1 v 1 in its effective range very easily, but this range is too high, it needs more spread or shorter range. Currently using the AR is very hard to kill heavy since few M and heavy has advantage. The hmg range is too high NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life Delta- bye bye ads, bye bye scr
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 102	Posted - 2014.11.10 00:21:00 - [16] - Quote manboar thunder fist wrote: Kind of ridiculous though when you get 2 shots into a heavy and they turn around and spray you down in half a second before the third can be fired. Shotguns need high dps because range is a huge limiting factor, as range vs dps is the best way to create balance the shotgun should have highest dps of all weapons. The heavy machine gun needs a dps/overheat nerf in order to reduce heavy spam. With less heavies being spammed, less shot gunners need to be present, as they are counters to each other. A heavy can kill any other suit 1 v 1 in its effective range very easily, but this range is too high, it needs more spread or shorter range. Currently using the AR is very hard to kill heavy since few M and heavy has advantage. The hmg range is too high HMG range is, in fact, too low. Consider just what the HMG is supposed to be- a heavy machine gun. As in, the kind of ordnance that one creative US Marine once used as sniper weapon. Incredible range and firepower... but similarly incredible weight, bulk, and ungainliness. You should check out Breakin Stuff's thread on that for more information. With that out of the way... I cannot in any way agree that the shotgun in its present state is a good weapon. The fact that it requires a scout suit to actually make use of it, and is more-or-less useless for medframes and of very limited utility for commandos is simply bad game design. Now, I'm not sure of a 20 meter optimal range; 15 seems like it would be better to at least start with, and then iterate on from there- Rattati has shown a great deal of interest in continued iteration... as evidenced by the continued changes to the racial rifles, and the similar iterations on the Burst HMG and regular HMG heat buildup. So, overall, I think that the proposed changes are very desirable. 20 meters is, IMO, a tad too much, and 15 would be a better starting point, but that's my opinion on just the range- a rate of fire nerf is pretty desirable IMO, since it keeps the DPS from getting too far out of hand, and the optimal range tweak will nicely compensate for that while also making it much more viable to use on medium frames in general as well as the commandos (most especially GalMando). Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 111	Posted - 2014.11.10 00:27:00 - [17] - Quote @ Manboar Get out of here with your sound reasoning, good sir! Short-range Shotguns shouldn't out-DPS long-range Rifles in close quarters. Because they OHK militia MedFrames and Scouts!
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 102	Posted - 2014.11.10 00:31:00 - [18] - Quote Do keep in mind that the proposal doesn't touch the actual damage values in the slightest- a shotgun is still doing just under 500 damage per shot. It just doesn't do it quite as fast, but it does do it from a little further away. What do you want, ultra-megadeath DPS, or the range to actually apply it and not have to be kissing the eyeballs of your chosen victim? Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
manboar thunder fist Dead Man's Game RUST415 225	Posted - 2014.11.10 00:36:00 - [19] - Quote One thing you have to consider victor is that most times 1400 armour heavy 450 shields with a gun with HIGHER dps than scout Vs 150 shield 150 armour scout with an extremely short range weapon that takes over 4 shots to kill the heavy All the heavy has to do is turn and spray and he will instakill the scout, in pc this is prevalent as heavies destroy even good shotgun scouts . In order to remain balanced between killing assaults and killing heavies the alpha damage Cannot be too high, therefore the dps has to be. Landing more shots takes more skill than one large shot since players react, strafe and jump while back-pedalling. NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life Delta- bye bye ads, bye bye scr
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2126	Posted - 2014.11.10 00:39:00 - [20] - Quote Victor Moody Stahl wrote: manboar thunder fist wrote: Kind of ridiculous though when you get 2 shots into a heavy and they turn around and spray you down in half a second before the third can be fired. Shotguns need high dps because range is a huge limiting factor, as range vs dps is the best way to create balance the shotgun should have highest dps of all weapons. The heavy machine gun needs a dps/overheat nerf in order to reduce heavy spam. With less heavies being spammed, less shot gunners need to be present, as they are counters to each other. A heavy can kill any other suit 1 v 1 in its effective range very easily, but this range is too high, it needs more spread or shorter range. Currently using the AR is very hard to kill heavy since few M and heavy has advantage. The hmg range is too high HMG range is, in fact, too low. Consider just what the HMG is supposed to be- a heavy machine gun. As in, the kind of ordnance that one creative US Marine once used as sniper weapon. Incredible range and firepower... but similarly incredible weight, bulk, and ungainliness. You should check out Breakin Stuff's thread on that for more information. With that out of the way... I cannot in any way agree that the shotgun in its present state is a good weapon. The fact that it requires a scout suit to actually make use of it, and is more-or-less useless for medframes and of very limited utility for commandos is simply bad game design. Now, I'm not sure of a 20 meter optimal range; 15 seems like it would be better to at least start with, and then iterate on from there- Rattati has shown a great deal of interest in continued iteration... as evidenced by the continued changes to the racial rifles, and the similar iterations on the Burst HMG and regular HMG heat buildup. So, overall, I think that the proposed changes are very desirable. 20 meters is, IMO, a tad too much, and 15 would be a better starting point, but that's my opinion on just the range- a rate of fire nerf is pretty desirable IMO, since it keeps the DPS from getting too far out of hand, and the optimal range tweak will nicely compensate for that while also making it much more viable to use on medium frames in general as well as the commandos (most especially GalMando). 15m is also doable. As long as mediums and commandos can make use of it. There should be multiple suits the shotgun is viable on, not just one. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.

Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 112	Posted - 2014.11.10 00:40:00 - [21] - Quote Victor Moody Stahl wrote: Do keep in mind that the proposal doesn't touch the actual damage values in the slightest- a shotgun is still doing just under 500 damage per shot. It just doesn't do it quite as fast, but it does do it from a little further away. What do you want, ultra-megadeath DPS, or the range to actually apply it and not have to be kissing the eyeballs of your chosen victim? If the shotgun fired a slug, then the thinking in this thread would make more sense. At 20m, one or two pellets might connect with one blast and five or six in the next. In the best of pellet spread cases, variance would be wild at 20m; militia rifles would put damage on target faster and more reliably than a proto shotgun. Extending optimal to over 9000m! would have the same effect. Because the shotgun does not fire a slug.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2126	Posted - 2014.11.10 00:41:00 - [22] - Quote manboar thunder fist wrote: One thing you have to consider victor is that most times 1400 armour heavy 450 shields with a gun with HIGHER dps than scout Vs 150 shield 150 armour scout with an extremely short range weapon that takes over 4 shots to kill the heavy All the heavy has to do is turn and spray and he will instakill the scout, in pc this is prevalent as heavies destroy even good shotgun scouts . In order to remain balanced between killing assaults and killing heavies the alpha damage Cannot be too high, therefore the dps has to be. Landing more shots takes more skill than one large shot since players react, strafe and jump while back-pedalling. You expect a sentinel loaded with plates to strafe and jump enough to throw off a sneak attack by a shotgun scout? No weapon should have high alpha and high DPs. That is OP. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2126	Posted - 2014.11.10 00:43:00 - [23] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Victor Moody Stahl wrote: Do keep in mind that the proposal doesn't touch the actual damage values in the slightest- a shotgun is still doing just under 500 damage per shot. It just doesn't do it quite as fast, but it does do it from a little further away. What do you want, ultra-megadeath DPS, or the range to actually apply it and not have to be kissing the eyeballs of your chosen victim? If the shotgun fired a slug, then the thinking in this thread would make more sense. At 20m, one or two pellets might connect with one blast and five or six in the next. In the best of pellet spread cases, variance would be wild at 20m; militia rifles would put damage on target faster and more reliably than a proto shotgun. Extending optimal to over 9000m! would have the same effect. Because the shotgun does not fire a slug. And yet, you would still apply more DPs to the target. Dispersion can change, but as it stands, the shotgun is too powerful and not enough range. If only one suit type can use it, there's a problem. If 1000 damage can be dealt in under a second by an unmodified standard weapon, there is a problem. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
manboar thunder fist Dead Man's Game RUST415 225	Posted - 2014.11.10 00:44:00 - [24] - Quote My suggestion: Fix heavy spam by increasing spread of hmg and overheat Shotgunners running kincats are already nerfed due to active team scans Increase shotgun range on breach to 15 m, add a slug effect and increase ammo capacity Besides, now shotguns have a cloak shooting delay NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life Delta- bye bye ads, bye bye scr
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 112	Posted - 2014.11.10 00:49:00 - [25] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: If 1000 damage can be dealt in under a second by an unmodified standard weapon, there is a problem. According to protofits, SG RoF is 85.71 ... I believe that translates to roughly 2 blasts every 3 seconds (rather than 2 blasts every 1 second). Is my math wrong?
manboar thunder fist Dead Man's Game RUST415 225	Posted - 2014.11.10 00:53:00 - [26] - Quote Roughly is not accurate enough, you have to look at exact times because short range dps is very hit or die. I.e if you miss your shotgun shot you die Heavies are much more forgiving because they can kill 20 scouts in a single overheat NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life Delta- bye bye ads, bye bye scr
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2127	Posted - 2014.11.10 01:06:00 - [27] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: If 1000 damage can be dealt in under a second by an unmodified standard weapon, there is a problem. According to protofits, SG RoF is 85.71 ... I believe that translates to roughly 2 blasts every 3 seconds (rather than 2 blasts every 1 second). Is my math wrong? Your math is correct, your application is wrong. 85.71 RPM / 60 seconds in a minute gives us 1.4285 shots a second. That 0.4285 translates to a full shot, since you don't shoot any partial shots. Therefore, you can get two shots off in a second. 480x2 shots in a second gives us 960 damage within a second, almost 1000 damage. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
manboar thunder fist Dead Man's Game RUST415 225	Posted - 2014.11.10 01:08:00 - [28] - Quote 0.4 shots rounds down not up. You don't get 2 shots a second NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life Delta- bye bye ads, bye bye scr
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2127	Posted - 2014.11.10 01:12:00 - [29] - Quote manboar thunder fist wrote: 0.4 shots rounds down not up. You don't get 2 shots a second You are misunderstanding. If the ROF is 60 rounds a minute, then that's 60 shots / 60 seconds for 1 round a second. 85.71 means you can get rounds off faster than once a second. Therefore, 2 rounds can be shot within a second. If you want, time it. Start the stopwatch once the first shotgun round goes off, and stop it once the second shot goes off. It will be less than a second. Anything higher than 60 RPM shoots more than one round a second. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2127	Posted - 2014.11.10 01:15:00 - [30] - Quote Also, keep in mind we are discussing a standard shotgun with no damage mods and no proficiency. This level of damage is available for 12k sp. We can run numbers with differenttiers and damage mods, but those numbers only help my case. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.

Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2127	Posted - 2014.11.10 01:17:00 - [31] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: If 1000 damage can be dealt in under a second by an unmodified standard weapon, there is a problem. According to protofits, SG RoF is 85.71 ... I believe that translates to roughly 2 blasts every 3 seconds (rather than 2 blasts every 1 second). Is my math wrong? At 85.71 RPM, we get 4 shots within 3 seconds. This is 1920 damage in 3 seconds. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
manboar thunder fist Dead Man's Game RUST415 225	Posted - 2014.11.10 01:19:00 - [32] - Quote This will need further testing and slow mo proof Regardless The disparity between target hp and target dps And shotgun HP and shotgun dps is still present The shotgun is an alpha weapon, the hmg is not Yet the hmg can kill a scout in a second too NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life Delta- bye bye ads, bye bye scr
manboar thunder fist Dead Man's Game RUST415 225	Posted - 2014.11.10 01:21:00 - [33] - Quote You also have to land all shots, which is considerably harder after the first shot against any decent player Once you play in pc you will understand how easy it is to counter a shotgun with a heavy Personally I almost never get shot gunned Just. About situational awareNess NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life Delta- bye bye ads, bye bye scr
Benjamin Ciscko Fatal Absolution 3453	Posted - 2014.11.10 01:29:00 - [34] - Quote manboar thunder fist wrote: My suggestion: Fix heavy spam by increasing spread of hmg and overheat Shotgunners running kincats are already nerfed due to active team scans Increase shotgun range on breach to 15 m, add a slug effect and increase ammo capacity Besides, now shotguns have a cloak shooting delay To the person above me: Snipers deal 1000+ dmg in under a second Forge deals 1000+ dmg in under a second Rail turret deals 1000+ dmg in under a second The shotgun deals 450 dmg in a second. And all three of the above have either A low clip size A charge time Fatal Absolution Director
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2129	Posted - 2014.11.10 01:39:00 - [35] - Quote manboar thunder fist wrote: My suggestion: Fix heavy spam by increasing spread of hmg and overheat Shotgunners running kincats are already nerfed due to active team scans Increase shotgun range on breach to 15 m, add a slug effect and increase ammo capacity Besides, now shotguns have a cloak shooting delay To the person above me: Snipers deal 1000+ dmg in under a second Forge deals 1000+ dmg in under a second Rail turret deals 1000+ dmg in under a second The shotgun deals 450 dmg in a second. Name me one sniper able to deal 1000 DPS within a second. Forge guns are anti vehicle. Are you really going to compare a large rail turret to a standard weapon and not see an issue? And yes, the shotgun can deliver 1000 damage in a second. Its not hard to understand, unless your trying to obfusticate the issue. If you can fire faster than 60 RPM, which is one shot a second, then you are firing more than one shot in a second. There is no arguing over this. The math proves it, the gameplay proves it. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 112	Posted - 2014.11.10 02:04:00 - [36] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: And yes, the shotgun can deliver 1000 damage in a second. Its not hard to understand, unless your trying to obfusticate the issue. If you can fire faster than 60 RPM, which is one shot a second, then you are firing more than one shot in a second. There is no arguing over this. The math proves it, the gameplay proves it. I don't think anyone here is trying to obfuscate the issue. Let's approach this differently for the sake of clarity: At 85.71 RPM 0 sec - 1st blast 1.4 sec - 2nd blast ( = 2 / (85.71 / 60) 2.1 sec - 3rd blast ( = 3 / (85.71 / 60) 2.8 sec - 4th blast ( = 4 / (85.71 / 60) Applied If a given Sentinel requires 4 shotgun blasts to kill, the fastest a shotgunner can kill that Sentinel is 2.8 seconds.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 112	Posted - 2014.11.10 02:18:00 - [37] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: At 85.71 RPM 0 sec - 1st blast 1.4 sec - 2nd blast ( = 2 / (85.71 / 60) 2.1 sec - 3rd blast ( = 3 / (85.71 / 60) 2.8 sec - 4th blast ( = 4 / (85.71 / 60) Applied If a given Sentinel requires 4 shotgun blasts to kill, the fastest a shotgunner can kill that Sentinel is 2.8 seconds. Proposal A - 50 RPM 0 sec - 1st blast 2.4 sec - 2nd blast ( = 2 / (50 / 60) 3.6 sec - 3rd blast ( = 3 / (50 / 60) 4.8 sec - 4th blast ( = 4 / (50 / 60) Proposal A - Applied If a given Sentinel requires 4 shotgun blasts to kill, the fastest a shotgunner can kill that Sentinel is 4.8 seconds. Proposal B - 62.5 RPM 0 sec - 1st blast 1.9 sec - 2nd blast ( = 2 / (62.5 / 60) 2.9 sec - 3rd blast ( = 3 / (62.5 / 60) 3.8 sec - 4th blast ( = 4 / (62.5 / 60) Proposal B - Applied If a given Sentinel requires 4 shotgun blasts to kill, the fastest a shotgunner can kill that Sentinel is 3.8 seconds.
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 62	Posted - 2014.11.10 02:18:00 - [38] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: And yes, the shotgun can deliver 1000 damage in a second. Its not hard to understand, unless your trying to obfusticate the issue. If you can fire faster than 60 RPM, which is one shot a second, then you are firing more than one shot in a second. There is no arguing over this. The math proves it, the gameplay proves it. I don't think anyone here is trying to obfuscate the issue. Let's approach this differently for the sake of clarity: At 85.71 RPM 0 sec - 1st blast 1.4 sec - 2nd blast ( = 2 / (85.71 / 60) 2.1 sec - 3rd blast ( = 3 / (85.71 / 60) 2.8 sec - 4th blast ( = 4 / (85.71 / 60) Applied If a given Sentinel requires 4 shotgun blasts to kill, the fastest a shotgunner can kill that Sentinel is 2.8 seconds. Interesting observation: By my math, four shotgun blasts are required to kill a max-HP AM Sentinel, whether the Shotgunner is wielding a STD, ADV or PRO shotgun. * Assumes max proficiency and 100% of pellets on target (i.e. distance 0-1 meters). Opposite from your math 60 second per minute 85.71 shot per minute 60/85.71=0.7 seconds per shot 0=1st shot 0.7=2nd shot 1.4=3rd shot 2.1=4th shot
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 62	Posted - 2014.11.10 02:23:00 - [39] - Quote In other words, 85.71 shots per 60 seconds means: 0.7 seconds / shot Or 1.43 shots / second Shots are binary, they either do or don't, fractional shots don't happen. So 2 shot in 1 second, 3 shots in 2 seconds, 5 shots in 3 seconds.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 112	Posted - 2014.11.10 02:24:00 - [40] - Quote Kensai Dragon wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: And yes, the shotgun can deliver 1000 damage in a second. Its not hard to understand, unless your trying to obfusticate the issue. If you can fire faster than 60 RPM, which is one shot a second, then you are firing more than one shot in a second. There is no arguing over this. The math proves it, the gameplay proves it. I don't think anyone here is trying to obfuscate the issue. Let's approach this differently for the sake of clarity: At 85.71 RPM 0 sec - 1st blast 1.4 sec - 2nd blast ( = 2 / (85.71 / 60) 2.1 sec - 3rd blast ( = 3 / (85.71 / 60) 2.8 sec - 4th blast ( = 4 / (85.71 / 60) Applied If a given Sentinel requires 4 shotgun blasts to kill, the fastest a shotgunner can kill that Sentinel is 2.8 seconds. Interesting observation: By my math, four shotgun blasts are required to kill a max-HP AM Sentinel, whether the Shotgunner is wielding a STD, ADV or PRO shotgun. * Assumes max proficiency and 100% of pellets on target (i.e. distance 0-1 meters). Opposite from your math 60 second per minute 85.71 shot per minute 60/85.71=0.7 seconds per shot 0=1st shot 0.7=2nd shot 1.4=3rd shot 2.1=4th shot Seconds per Shot =/= Shots per Second. For this approach to work, 1st shot would need to read 0.7 seconds: 0.7 - 1st shot 1.4 - 2nd shot 2.1 - 3rd shot 2.8 - 4th shot Test your math in game; I'm confident you'll find that the shotgun fires 3 blasts every 2 seconds (not 4 blasts).

Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2129	Posted - 2014.11.10 02:32:00 - [41] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Kensai Dragon wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: And yes, the shotgun can deliver 1000 damage in a second. Its not hard to understand, unless your trying to obfusticate the issue. If you can fire faster than 60 RPM, which is one shot a second, then you are firing more than one shot in a second. There is no arguing over this. The math proves it, the gameplay proves it. I don't think anyone here is trying to obfuscate the issue. Let's approach this differently for the sake of clarity: At 85.71 RPM 0 sec - 1st blast 1.4 sec - 2nd blast ( = 2 / (85.71 / 60) 2.1 sec - 3rd blast ( = 3 / (85.71 / 60) 2.8 sec - 4th blast ( = 4 / (85.71 / 60) Applied If a given Sentinel requires 4 shotgun blasts to kill, the fastest a shotgunner can kill that Sentinel is 2.8 seconds. Interesting observation: By my math, four shotgun blasts are required to kill a max-HP AM Sentinel, whether the Shotgunner is wielding a STD, ADV or PRO shotgun. * Assumes max proficiency and 100% of pellets on target (i.e. distance 0-1 meters). Opposite from your math 60 second per minute 85.71 shot per minute 60/85.71=0.7 seconds per shot 0=1st shot 0.7=2nd shot 1.4=3rd shot 2.1=4th shot Seconds per Shot =/= Shots per Second. For this approach to work, 1st shot would need to read 0.7 seconds: 0.7 - 1st shot 1.4 - 2nd shot 2.1 - 3rd shot 2.8 - 4th shot Test your math in game; I'm confident you'll find that the shotgun fires 3 blasts every 2 seconds (not 4 blasts). False. Your first shot is always instant. The exception are rail weapons that require a charge up time. Therefore 1st shot: 0.0 seconds (instant) - 480 damage 2nd shot: 0.7 seconds (0.7 refire rate) - 960 damage (here we are at almost 1000 damage within a second) 3rd shot: 1.4 seconds - 1440 damage (enough to kill all but the Amarr Sentinel brick tanked. 4th shot: 2.1 seconds - 1920 damage, our Amarr sentinel is dead. If shotguns had a 0.7 second charge, your math would be correct. your skipping the initial shot. However, according you your math, you have proved you can indeed get 960 damage within a second. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 62	Posted - 2014.11.10 02:59:00 - [42] - Quote You're telling me that you stand still for 0.7 seconds before you pull the trigger? Time starts at the first shot fired. If I'm running around a corner and see you, I fire. Then, 0.7 seconds later I fire again. Second (2nd) shot happens less than 1 second of time after the first. I just sent 2 shots within the first 1 second of time of engagement.
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 62	Posted - 2014.11.10 03:11:00 - [43] - Quote The confusion seems to be shots / sec vs sec/shot. At 85.71 RPM, that is 85.71 rounds /60 seconds, yielding 1.43 shots in 1 second. Since you can't have a partial shot, 1.0001 shots = 2 shots for that period of time. Continuing on will show 2.8 shots in 2 seconds which equals 3 full shots. 4.2 shots in 3 =5, etc At 60 seconds / 85.71 rounds you will yield 0.7 seconds / round. Time starts when you see the enemy and fire. Again, 2nd shot at 0.7s, 3rd at 1.4s, 4th at 2.1s, etc
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 116	Posted - 2014.11.10 03:30:00 - [44] - Quote Fortunately, we don't have to grab a stopwatch and test in game; protofits is kind enough to calculate DPS for us. At max proficiency, the Creodron Shotgun's DPS of 867.39. 12 pellets at 50.6 dmg per pellet = 607.2 per blast. If the shotgun's RoF permitted it to fire 4 times in 2 seconds, its DPS would be closer to 1,214.4 (rather than the given 867.39). TL;DR: The shotgun fires roughly 3x every 2 seconds. Not 4x. Edit: If you guys really think I'm trying to pull your leg, I would encourage you to turn on Dust, equip a shotgun and measure how many seconds lapse between blast #1 and blast #4.
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 62	Posted - 2014.11.10 04:06:00 - [45] - Quote Are you seriously trying to negate the first shot as counting towards the total? Protofits.com is taking the 1.4*DMG to get DPS. Anyways, those that know will start the time at the first shot. Then, 3 later will be 2 seconds later. 1+3=4. Your welcome.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2130	Posted - 2014.11.10 04:29:00 - [46] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Fortunately, we don't have to grab a stopwatch and test in game; protofits is kind enough to calculate DPS for us. At max proficiency, the Creodron Shotgun's DPS of 867.39. 12 pellets at 50.6 dmg per pellet = 607.2 per blast. If the shotgun's RoF permitted it to fire 4 times in ~2 seconds, its DPS would be closer to 1,214.4 (rather than the given 867.39). TL;DR: The shotgun fires roughly 3x every 2 seconds. Not 4x. If you guys still think I'm trying to pull your leg, I would encourage you to equip a shotgun and measure how many seconds lapse between blast #1 and blast #4. You'll find that you hit the 2 second mark right around the same time that you fire your 3rd shot (not the 4th). Your talking damage over time. Were talking g damage in a set time period. You can get two shots off within a second: one shot at the start of the second, and another 0.7 seconds later. Its not hard to understand. The timer starts as the first shot goes off. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 62	Posted - 2014.11.10 04:33:00 - [47] - Quote Back to the topic, why not halve the damage and double the range? With half the damage and effective range out to, say, 30 meters, optimal range should be about 10 meters I think. Effective range is 30% DMG, optimal I think is 70%, could be wrong on that stat. So at point blank with no bonuses/mods, 240 DMG. Headshot multiplier applies, so I think 360 DMG to the head. Able to do up to 252 DMG per headshot, or 168 DMG body up to 10 meters out. Does this sound like a compromise between assault / Commando and scout? Anyone who knows the stats for sure is welcome to correct the numbers
Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 7127	Posted - 2014.11.10 04:41:00 - [48] - Quote Remember, however, that there were little to no changes to the Shotgun since it's inception. Other than a change to higher shield damage on it's proficiency skill in 1.8 and 10% lower weapon damage to all light weapons (the same build that came out with the Cloaking device) the Shotgun never really changed. The Scout, however, did. Long-Term Roadmap Question -EVERYTHING-
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2812	Posted - 2014.11.10 04:53:00 - [49] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: manboar thunder fist wrote: 0.4 shots rounds down not up. You don't get 2 shots a second You are misunderstanding. If the ROF is 60 rounds a minute, then that's 60 shots / 60 seconds for 1 round a second. 85.71 means you can get rounds off faster than once a second. Therefore, 2 rounds can be shot within a second. If you want, time it. Start the stopwatch once the first shotgun round goes off, and stop it once the second shot goes off. It will be less than a second. Anything higher than 60 RPM shoots more than one round a second. 2 rounds in a second at some time. However, for all intents and purposes, it isn't 2 rounds per second. "Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 62	Posted - 2014.11.10 05:10:00 - [50] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: manboar thunder fist wrote: 0.4 shots rounds down not up. You don't get 2 shots a second You are misunderstanding. If the ROF is 60 rounds a minute, then that's 60 shots / 60 seconds for 1 round a second. 85.71 means you can get rounds off faster than once a second. Therefore, 2 rounds can be shot within a second. If you want, time it. Start the stopwatch once the first shotgun round goes off, and stop it once the second shot goes off. It will be less than a second. Anything higher than 60 RPM shoots more than one round a second. 2 rounds in a second at some time. However, for all intents and purposes, it isn't 2 rounds per second. That's true, but you DO get 2 shots in the first second, and you do get 2 shots in any given 1 second frame of time. That is the critical point with this particular weapon.

Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2133	Posted - 2014.11.10 06:48:00 - [51] - Quote In addition, all damage numbers assume a standard weapon. 1000 damage in a second is really high. This is why shotgun scout are called OP. The one disadvantage of the shotgun, crippling range, is negated by cloaks and scout speed. We need to reduce its DPs, while buffing its range, to make it useful on a wider range of suit types. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2133	Posted - 2014.11.10 07:18:00 - [52] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: manboar thunder fist wrote: 0.4 shots rounds down not up. You don't get 2 shots a second You are misunderstanding. If the ROF is 60 rounds a minute, then that's 60 shots / 60 seconds for 1 round a second. 85.71 means you can get rounds off faster than once a second. Therefore, 2 rounds can be shot within a second. If you want, time it. Start the stopwatch once the first shotgun round goes off, and stop it once the second shot goes off. It will be less than a second. Anything higher than 60 RPM shoots more than one round a second. 2 rounds in a second at some time. However, for all intents and purposes, it isn't 2 rounds per second. False. For the purpose of seeing how many shots you can deal in a second, it is 2 rounds in a second. For calculating the potential damage dealt in a second, it is two rounds in a second. I could go on. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 116	Posted - 2014.11.10 12:32:00 - [53] - Quote @ Alena If Shotgun fired 2 rounds per second, its RoF would be would be 120 RPM (not 85). Can it get off 2 shots within a one second interval? Yes. But that absolutely doesn't mean it can get off 4 shots within 2 seconds. @ Aeon Shotgun Proficiency was changed from + RoF to + Shield Efficacy.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4481	Posted - 2014.11.10 14:53:00 - [54] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: @ Alena If the Shotgun fired 2 rounds per second, its RoF would be would be 120 RPM (not 85). While it can get off 2 blasts within a one second interval, it most certainly cannot get off 4 blasts within 2 a second interval. Here's why ... Each blast is followed by a lengthy recovery period. A two blast sequence includes only one recovery period. A three blast sequence includes two, and a four blast sequence includes three. Your argument applies only when describing a 2HK (blast+recovery+blast) scenario, but we must account for the increase in number of recovery periods when estimated TTK for 3HK+ engagements (i.e. Sentinels). @ Aeon Shotgun Proficiency was changed from + RoF to + Shield Efficacy. OMG. This circular math discussion is driving me crazy. I barely care about this change and I just can't take it. It just shouldn't be that hard to understand: No, you do NOT get 2 shots EVERY second. That would, in fact, equate to 120 RPM, not 85. -however- You DO get 2 shots in THE FIRST second. 0 sec: 1 shot 0.7 sec: 2 shots -- one second has elapsed -- 1.4 sec: 3 shots -- two seconds have elapsed -- 2.1 sec: 4 shots 2.8 sec: 5 shots -- 3 seconds have elapsed -- 3.6 sec: 6 shots -- 4 seconds have elapsed -- As you can see, you get 2 shots in one second, but don't get 4 shots in 2 seconds. If you go out further to the entire minute, you drop a few more of those second shots per second (which is a confusing phrase, isn't it?) and lose... wait for it... 120-85 = 35 shots, or a little more than one every other second, as you can see in the timeline above. walks away grumbling (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 117	Posted - 2014.11.10 15:52:00 - [55] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: This makes the DPS calculation of 900 a little high but not totally inaccurate in terms of the "real world" application of the weapons damage. I realized that this will add to your grumbling, but ... We can't make reasonable claims about "real world" damage application if we've assumed unreasonable "real world" parameters. In practice, targets do not remain stationary and centered at 0m when being shotgunned.
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 62	Posted - 2014.11.10 16:15:00 - [56] - Quote Lol, this is quite fun(ny), but I think at the bottom of all of this we can agree that the shotgun has a VERY high alpha damage with VERY short range, making it a very niche and essentially one class weapon. Again I'll reiterate my thought of halving the damage and doubling the range. I think this is a fair starting point to submit to Rattati and Crew. Any takers?
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 118	Posted - 2014.11.10 16:32:00 - [57] - Quote Kensai Dragon wrote: Lol, this is quite fun(ny), but I think at the bottom of all of this we can agree that the shotgun has a VERY high alpha damage with VERY short range, making it a very niche and essentially one class weapon. Again I'll reiterate my thought of halving the damage and doubling the range. I think this is a fair starting point to submit to Rattati and Crew. Any takers? This idea is quite bad, and I'll attempt to explain why. At 0 meters, no pellets will miss your target and 8 blasts would be needed to kill an armor-based sentinel. This will take somewhere between 5 and 6 seconds, assuming you've perfect aim, timing and the sentinel does not move. At 5 meters -- well within your new optimal range -- a percentage of pellets will miss your target. At 10 meters -- the outer limit of your new optimal range -- the majority of your pellets will miss your target. Even if he's standing still. Even if you have perfect aim.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4485	Posted - 2014.11.10 17:50:00 - [58] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: This makes the DPS calculation of 900 a little high but not totally inaccurate in terms of the "real world" application of the weapons damage. I realize that this may add to your grumbling, but ... We can't make a reasonable claim about "real world" DPS while assuming parameters which seldom exist in the "real world". In practice, targets do not remain stationary and centered at 0m when being shotgunned. It did. Thing is, you can't count on all the bullets hitting from any weapon, yet we use total DPS calculations all the time. Why? Because with the of exception things like sniper rifles, PLC's, MD's, etc, that are essentially all-or-nothing, it's impossible to account for missed shots and therefore not helpful as a parameter. You have to exclude it on the simple principle that it is both essentially unmeasureable and that it will even out in the majority of scenarios. You are absolutely correct in that this is the inherent flaw in using "paper" DPS calculations but there is no practical alternative. You have to base your "experiment" on the numbers you have available and see how the results pan out. In this case, again, I really don't have much of an opinion on it other than lolmath debates drive me insane, But, if you did want to make it a viable choice for non-scouts in the manner proposed in the OP, the logical thing to do would be to also decrease the pellet spread to account for the longer range and make sure the reticule was a more accurate representation of it. IMO a slightly longer range would be an effective way to do it, but that's about all I got on this topic. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 62	Posted - 2014.11.10 17:52:00 - [59] - Quote Fair enough, I've never been in PC, and only sometimes in FW, so I don't see many ak.0 suits running around. However, Scouts are supposed to utilize the EWAR bonuses to be selective in targets, right? Tanked Assaults should still be taken out with 3-4 shots, and the small increase in range should allow Assaults to also use it as a viable CQC weapon. Most of my time is in pubs, so I'm just throwing out ideas trying to find a balance.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2139	Posted - 2014.11.10 18:25:00 - [60] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: @ Alena If the Shotgun fired 2 rounds per second, its RoF would be would be 120 RPM (not 85). While it can get off 2 blasts within a one second interval, it most certainly cannot get off 4 blasts within 2 a second interval. Here's why ... Each blast is followed by a lengthy recovery period. A two blast sequence includes only one recovery period. A three blast sequence includes two, and a four blast sequence includes three. Your argument applies only when describing a 2HK (blast+recovery+blast) scenario, but we must account for the increase in number of recovery periods when estimated TTK for 3HK+ engagements (i.e. Sentinels). @ Aeon Shotgun Proficiency was changed from + RoF to + Shield Efficacy. I know, I agree with you. But my point is, that you can get two blast off within a second. No, you cannot always get two blasts off in EVERY second, but some seconds will have two blasts, because you are able to fire 85 rounds in 60 seconds, which necessitates that some of those seconds have two rounds fired within them. More importantly, it's the fact that you are guaranteed to get two blasts off within the FIRST second, which is what I've been talking about. The alpha damage is incredibly high (working as intended) but the fact that you can then refire inside of a second (because you can get a shot off every 0.7 seconds) is the issue. I want the shotgun to have its high alpha, so I would lower DPS by ROF. I would also increase range, making it useful on my Galmanndo as much as your scout. ON THIS POINT, yes at 20m some pellets will miss. But 7-8 pellets hitting for full damage causes more damage than 12 pellets hitting for reduced damage. If increases your damage projection, even if a few pellets miss. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.

Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2146	Posted - 2014.11.10 18:40:00 - [61] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: @ Alena If the Shotgun fired 2 rounds per second, its RoF would be would be 120 RPM (not 85). While it can get off 2 blasts within a one second interval, it most certainly cannot get off 4 blasts within 2 a second interval. Here's why ... Each blast is followed by a lengthy recovery period. A two blast sequence includes only one recovery period. A three blast sequence includes two, and a four blast sequence includes three. Your argument applies only when describing a 2HK (blast+recovery+blast) scenario, but we must account for the increase in number of recovery periods when estimated TTK for 3HK+ engagements (i.e. Sentinels). @ Aeon Shotgun Proficiency was changed from + RoF to + Shield Efficacy. OMG. This circular math discussion is driving me crazy. I barely care about this change and I still just can't take it. It just shouldn't be that hard to understand: No, you do NOT get 2 shots EVERY second. That would, in fact, equate to 120 RPM, not 85. -however- You DO get 2 shots in THE FIRST second. 0 sec: 1 shot 0.7 sec: 2 shots -- one second has elapsed -- 1.4 sec: 3 shots -- two seconds have elapsed -- 2.1 sec: 4 shots 2.8 sec: 5 shots -- 3 seconds have elapsed -- 3.6 sec: 6 shots -- 4 seconds have elapsed -- As you can see, you get 2 shots in one second, but don't get 4 shots in 2 seconds. If you go out further to the entire minute, you drop a few more of those second shots per second (which is a confusing phrase, isn't it?) and lose... wait for it... 120-85 = 35 shots, or a little more than one every other second, as you can see in the timeline above. Edit: So, for an alpha weapon, logically the DPS should be heavily weighted towards the first few seconds. Above you get 2 shots in one second, 2 x 480 = 960dps, or 5 shots in 3 seconds, (5 x 480)/3 = 800dps. This makes the DPS calculation of 900 a little high but not totally inaccurate in terms of the "real world" application of the weapons damage. Only if you happen to choose 2 seconds (3x480)/2 = 720, are you not higher than an HMG (you are equal) walks away grumbling ^^This basically. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Amanda Strikeforce 1	Posted - 2014.11.10 20:42:00 - [62] - Quote The shotguns are most definitely OP, and need to be modified (not nerfed) so that they require more skill to get one shot kills with them. As it stands right now, assaults and medium frame suits don't stand a chance against shotgun scouts with precision enhancers, profile dampeners and cloaks. Shotgun scouts should not be able outgun medium, and heavy frame suits in CQC fights so easily. The damage and the rate of fire on the standard shotguns should be changed in such a way that medium, heavy frames suits can be able to fight back when a shotgun scout sneaks up on them. Here's what I would propose... Militia/Standard Shotgun Damage: change from 40.00 per pellet to 180 per shot Rate of Fire: change from 85.71 rpm to 60.00 rpm (same as the breech) Clip Size: change from 8 to 3 (3 shots = 540) Range: change from 4m to 10m Headshot Multiplier: increased to 300% CRG - 3 Damage: change from 42.00 per pellet to 182.00 per shot Rate of Fire: change from 85.71 rpm to 60.00 rpm Clip Size: change from 8 to 3 (3 shots = 546.00) Range: change from 4m to 10m Headshot multiplier: increase to 300% CreoDron Shotgun Damage: change from 44.00 per pellet to 184.40 per shot Rate of Fire: change from 85.71 rpm to 60.00 rpm Clip Size: change from 8 to 3 (3 shots = 553.20) Range: change from 4m to 10m Headshot multiplier: increase to 300% Breech Shotgun Damage: change from 48.00 per pellet to 348.00 per shot Rate of Fire: 60.00 rpm Clip Size: 2 (2 shots = 696.00) Range: change from 4m to 15 Headshot multiplier: increase to 300% KR-17 Damage: change from 50.40 per pellet to 350.40 per shot Rate of Fire: 60.00 rpm Clip Size: 2 (2 shots = 700.80) Range: change from 4m to 15m Headshot multiplier: increase to 300% Allotek Breech Shotgun Damage: change from 52.80 per pellet to 352.80 per shot Rate of Fire: 60.00 rpm Clip Size: 2 (2 shots = 705.60) Range: change from 4m to 15m Headshot multiplier: increase to 300% With these changes I think the shotgun would still be a powerful CQC weapon (especially when it comes to headshots), but it would require more skill to get kills with them against medium and Heavy frame suits. oh by the way...I'm a dude, Amanda Strikeforce is just a character I made up :)
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 62	Posted - 2014.11.10 21:57:00 - [63] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: @ Alena If the Shotgun fired 2 rounds per second, its RoF would be would be 120 RPM (not 85). While it can get off 2 blasts within a one second interval, it most certainly cannot get off 4 blasts within 2 a second interval. Here's why ... Each blast is followed by a lengthy recovery period. A two blast sequence includes only one recovery period. A three blast sequence includes two, and a four blast sequence includes three. Your argument applies only when describing a 2HK (blast+recovery+blast) scenario, but we must account for the increase in number of recovery periods when estimated TTK for 3HK+ engagements (i.e. Sentinels). @ Aeon Shotgun Proficiency was changed from + RoF to + Shield Efficacy. I know, I agree with you. But my point is, that you can get two blast off within a second. No, you cannot always get two blasts off in EVERY second, but some seconds will have two blasts, because you are able to fire 85 rounds in 60 seconds, which necessitates that some of those seconds have two rounds fired within them. More importantly, it's the fact that you are guaranteed to get two blasts off within the FIRST second, which is what I've been talking about. The alpha damage is incredibly high (working as intended) but the fact that you can then refire inside of a second (because you can get a shot off every 0.7 seconds) is the issue. I want the shotgun to have its high alpha, so I would lower DPS by ROF. I would also increase range, making it useful on my Galmanndo as much as your scout. ON THIS POINT, yes at 20m some pellets will miss. But 7-8 pellets hitting for full damage causes more damage than 12 pellets hitting for reduced damage. If increases your damage projection, even if a few pellets miss. I like this. Decrease RoF and increase range. Instead of pump action open cylinder, breach loaded IM choke. Maybe even a slight DMG buff as well (480 to 520 or so?).
manboar thunder fist xTHExKKKx 235	Posted - 2014.11.10 23:33:00 - [64] - Quote UNTIL heavies are nerfed there is no justification for nerfing shotguns. Landing 4 shots takes roughly the same time as killing a proto suit in a boundless hmg heavy, in fact it's a lot easier for heavy to kill the scout than the scout the heavy. The shotgun is a surprise high damage short range weapon, in most shooters it is a one shot kill and is the most lethal weapon in the close quarters. Any scout with a shotgun is not a threat. Any player with a heavy machine gun is a very very dangerous threat, even militia heavies can kill other players and proto suits in less than the time it takes to kill them. Every match today I find 50% heavies 20% logis 10% assaults 20% scouts. Any one can use an hmg where as using a scout require a whole bunch of skills such as dampening. My basic Amarr heavy with mh82 goes 5.0 kdr regularly, yet even though I consider myself a decent shotgunner I die to even militia heavies if they get their sights on me. Even with such the shotgun is not as effective as other guns because of its niche. You can't run into a room and shotgun everyone because you have low HP, this balances the shotgun. You can go in and kill 10 players with an hmg and that's fine? What about when 10 people are using hmgs. I am sick of heavy spam, all you can do is use remotes or shotgun, and even then it is more costly for you because their basic heavy fits are worthless. The shotgun doesn't need a nerf, it has been around for ages and continues to be a niche weapon that requires skill. The breach shotgun continues to be the most underused weapon in dust, buff it. The hmg needs a nerf first if shotgun gets nerfed, that thing is seriously op and accounts for majority of Isk spent and kills in dust I reckon. NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life Delta- bye bye ads, bye bye scr
manboar thunder fist xTHExKKKx 235	Posted - 2014.11.10 23:37:00 - [65] - Quote All I see in this thread are forum warriors who want to once again buff heavy spam until it breaks dust forever. So many people are leaving already because of these "cowardly tactics". Many of the vets claim there is "no gun game" anymore, and shotgun Is not as easy it seems, I bet half of the people here don't even use a shotgun yet complain about it, trust me missing is easier than you think, much easier. NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life Delta- bye bye ads, bye bye scr
manboar thunder fist xTHExKKKx 235	Posted - 2014.11.10 23:39:00 - [66] - Quote And not for a second do you consider how forgiving other weapons are.... If you miss a shotgun shot that's SO MUCH of your alpha strike gone, 400 damage gone just like that, missing causes death in 90% of cases. Yet hmg is so forgiving you can gun down 10 ppl in a row NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life Delta- bye bye ads, bye bye scr
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 10202	Posted - 2014.11.10 23:52:00 - [67] - Quote Your suggestion about changing the ROF and using the "cocking" animation to reduce the ROF while using test data to back it up seems logical. However, range is not an issue. If it is, I can't imagine a shotgun ever needing a range buff past 10m. As a scout -- shotgun scouts are my krytonite -- I usually carry a SMG and peg them from a greater distance if they try to chase me. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
manboar thunder fist xTHExKKKx 236	Posted - 2014.11.10 23:54:00 - [68] - Quote Shorter range higher damage is much better than high range lower damage, imagine if knives did a bit less of the damage but could be thrown across the room. Would be a bit ridiculous. Other scouts rely on staying outside 10m to kill shotgunners Assaults backpedal and jump back, increasing range would result in more medium frame kills not less Heavies are just op NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life Delta- bye bye ads, bye bye scr
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 62	Posted - 2014.11.10 23:57:00 - [69] - Quote manboar thunder fist wrote: All I see in this thread are forum warriors who want to once again buff heavy spam until it breaks dust forever. So many people are leaving already because of these "cowardly tactics". Many of the vets claim there is "no gun game" anymore, and shotgun Is not as easy it seems, I bet half of the people here don't even use a shotgun yet complain about it, trust me missing is easier than you think, much easier. Interesting, I don't recall anyone calling for increase in heavy spam, or necessarily a nerf to the shotgun, but an attempt to make it useful across platforms. Specifically, useful as an assault suit option.
manboar thunder fist xTHExKKKx 237	Posted - 2014.11.11 00:00:00 - [70] - Quote YeS but Kensal my dear, this will lead to further nerfs If damage is reduced like many are secretly pushing for heavies will have 1 of 2 counters removed If range is increased medium and light frames will die even more since their evasive speed will be a negligible factor NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life Delta- bye bye ads, bye bye scr

Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 121	Posted - 2014.11.11 00:02:00 - [71] - Quote Kensai Dragon wrote: manboar thunder fist wrote: All I see in this thread are forum warriors who want to once again buff heavy spam until it breaks dust forever. So many people are leaving already because of these "cowardly tactics". Many of the vets claim there is "no gun game" anymore, and shotgun Is not as easy it seems, I bet half of the people here don't even use a shotgun yet complain about it, trust me missing is easier than you think, much easier. Interesting, I don't recall anyone calling for increase in heavy spam, or necessarily a nerf to the shotgun, but an attempt to make it useful across platforms. Specifically, useful as an assault suit option. If you suspect a lower RoF / higher range / tighter spread / harder hitting variant might fit the bill ... why not ask Rattati to tailor the Breach Shotgun to meet your specifications?
manboar thunder fist xTHExKKKx 237	Posted - 2014.11.11 00:06:00 - [72] - Quote I think people are just reluctant to try new fits I use knives on assault suits so shotguns can definitely be done,just takes some imagination. And you'll be surprised at the effective combo of speed tank and damage mods Ps. Breach needs 4 round clip NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life Delta- bye bye ads, bye bye scr
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2146	Posted - 2014.11.11 00:45:00 - [73] - Quote manboar thunder fist wrote: UNTIL heavies are nerfed there is no justification for nerfing shotguns. Landing 4 shots takes roughly the same time as killing a proto suit in a boundless hmg heavy, in fact it's a lot easier for heavy to kill the scout than the scout the heavy. The shotgun is a surprise high damage short range weapon, in most shooters it is a one shot kill and is the most lethal weapon in the close quarters. Any scout with a shotgun is not a threat. Any player with a heavy machine gun is a very very dangerous threat, even militia heavies can kill other players and proto suits in less than the time it takes to kill them. Every match today I find 50% heavies 20% logis 10% assaults 20% scouts. Any one can use an hmg where as using a scout require a whole bunch of skills such as dampening. My basic Amarr heavy with mh82 goes 5.0 kdr regularly, yet even though I consider myself a decent shotgunner I die to even militia heavies if they get their sights on me. Even with such the shotgun is not as effective as other guns because of its niche. You can't run into a room and shotgun everyone because you have low HP, this balances the shotgun. You can go in and kill 10 players with an hmg and that's fine? What about when 10 people are using hmgs. I am sick of heavy spam, all you can do is use remotes or shotgun, and even then it is more costly for you because their basic heavy fits are worthless. The shotgun doesn't need a nerf, it has been around for ages and continues to be a niche weapon that requires skill. The breach shotgun continues to be the most underused weapon in dust, buff it. The hmg needs a nerf first if shotgun gets nerfed, that thing is seriously op and accounts for majority of Isk spent and kills in dust I reckon. For the hundredth time, we are talking about a standard weapon, no proficiency, no damage mods. A creodrone shotgun will kill an AMARR SENTINEL in 3 shots. The most HP possible on a dropsuit goes down in 3 to 4 shots. That's ridiculous. You are taking the best possible sentinel against the worst possible shotgun and saying that this engagement is balanced. Based on this alone, we see the shotgun is OP. My changes will continue to make the shotgun useful, while not being the be-all-end-all for any given engagement. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 121	Posted - 2014.11.11 02:16:00 - [74] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: For the hundredth time, we are talking about a standard weapon, no proficiency, no damage mods. A creodrone shotgun will kill an AMARR SENTINEL in 3 shots. The most HP possible on a dropsuit goes down in 3 to 4 shots. That's ridiculous. You are taking the best possible sentinel against the worst possible shotgun and saying that this engagement is balanced. Based on this alone, we see the shotgun is OP. My changes will continue to make the shotgun useful, while not being the be-all-end-all for any given engagement. With respect, this more an opinion than science. Not to say yours isn't a valid opinion, but here is mine: It is absolutely necessary for Shotguns to kill Sentinels quickly. Current mechanics already permit Heavies too great an opportunity to emerge victorious from perfectly executed "surprise" attacks from behind. If Shotgun vs Heavy TTK were lengthened, Heavies would dominate the majority of these encounters. Heavies are already lacking in hard counters; it would be ill-advised to remove another.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2146	Posted - 2014.11.11 07:16:00 - [75] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: For the hundredth time, we are talking about a standard weapon, no proficiency, no damage mods. A creodrone shotgun will kill an AMARR SENTINEL in 3 shots. The most HP possible on a dropsuit goes down in 3 to 4 shots. That's ridiculous. You are taking the best possible sentinel against the worst possible shotgun and saying that this engagement is balanced. Based on this alone, we see the shotgun is OP. My changes will continue to make the shotgun useful, while not being the be-all-end-all for any given engagement. With respect, this ^ is more opinion than science. Here is another opinion: It is absolutely necessary for Shotguns to kill Sentinels quickly. Current mechanics already permit high-HP Heavies too great an opportunity to emerge victorious from perfectly executed "surprise" attacks from behind. If Shotgun vs Heavy TTK were lengthened, Heavies would dominate the majority of these encounters. This is an unacceptable outcome. Furthermore, it is absolutely necessary and appropriate for Shotguns to significantly out-DPS ranged weapons in CQC. Their damage output does and should reflect their severe range limitation. It is completely "fair" that a standard shotgun's DMG/DPS at 0m to 5m is far greater than that of a weapon with 10x to 20x its optimal range. And if the range changes, that reasoning does not work. Shotguns need better damage projection, which allows them to work on multiple frames instead of just one, and less DPS because you cannot balance a weapon around one type of suit. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
manboar thunder fist xTHExKKKx 241	Posted - 2014.11.11 16:53:00 - [76] - Quote If the range changes, your "short range weapon" becomes a general purpose bolt pistol for short range. Why the hell are you trying to reduce a shotgun to a bolt pistol that is inefficient as well. The shotgun doesn't dominate heavies like you claim, in fact between landing consecutive shots, the range, the hit detection, the noise and obvious nature, the cloak delay and the stealth needed to execute its use it is much much harder to use than an hmg, I think behind all your "statistical" aka straw man argument, you are just a heavy or assault user who got shotgunned, raged at your lack of skill, and decided to spam the forums about it. The shotgun is a powerful gun but it fits its damage profile, range, dps values are sufficient for close quarters and it can be used effectively only on paper thin suits, which is a BALANCING factor. If every joe and billy could use the shotgun with ease it would be a problem, but it is unlike the hmg and rifles as in it takes more than a. Decent level of skill to be good at. If 800 hp assaults could use a shotgun effectively it would need a nerf, the fact that a good shot gunning fit requires kincats and damps to get to that short optimal range is a huge factor in balancing the gun. NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life Delta- bye bye ads, bye bye scr
Doshneil Antaro Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 294	Posted - 2014.11.11 19:20:00 - [77] - Quote Lol, please range increase. That way I can equip them on my logi and OHKO all those scouts before they can decloak and do the same to me. The the op was thought out, there is a reason shotgun range was reduced in the first place. High dps and range lead to them being as used as the plasma rifle. The only effective to the scout shotgun combo was a shotgun on any other suit. Thi issue blossomed in to the great scout/shotgun nerf that lead both to be useless until the cloak. Funny because now we have less counters to this combo. It looks like CCP learned nothing over these years. Nerf to scouts, then heavy, logi now so nerf as well. Are we really going down that road again? Sage /thread
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2151	Posted - 2014.11.12 10:05:00 - [78] - Quote OP being updated with more info and pictures. For the record, the shotgun with a range increase would still be useful at range. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Mexxx Dust-Slayer Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 92	Posted - 2014.11.12 21:42:00 - [79] - Quote manboar thunder fist wrote: All I see in this thread are forum warriors who want to once again buff heavy spam until it breaks dust forever. So many people are leaving already because of these "cowardly tactics". Many of the vets claim there is "no gun game" anymore, and shotgun Is not as easy it seems, I bet half of the people here don't even use a shotgun yet complain about it, trust me missing is easier than you think, much easier. This is not a nerf we are talking about.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 152	Posted - 2014.11.12 22:39:00 - [80] - Quote Mexxx Dust-Slayer wrote: This is not a nerf we are talking about. Reducing Shotgun RoF is a huge nerf. Even if a range extension worked perfectly, a slower shotgun means increased odds of surviving a shotgun to the back. This proposal reinforces "HP is King" as it (1) rewards those capable of withstanding the first blast by granting them more time to respond and (2) penalizes those who fail to HP tank by increasing the range within which they are OHK'd.

Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2153	Posted - 2014.11.12 22:56:00 - [81] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Mexxx Dust-Slayer wrote: This is not a nerf we are talking about. Reducing Shotgun RoF is a huge nerf. Even if a range extension worked perfectly, a slower shotgun means increased odds of surviving a shotgun to the back. This proposal reinforces "HP is King" as it (1) rewards those capable of withstanding the first blast by granting them more time to respond and (2) penalizes those who fail to HP tank by increasing the range within which they are OHK'd. What it does is (1) allows multiple suits to effectively use the shotgun. (2) means that a suit has a chance to respond to the threat, which is how it should be. Even if he tries getting farhter away, you now have more range with which to finish him. (3) If anything, the shotgun killing so quickly encourages "HP is king" because stacking hp is the only way to have a chance at survival, and a lower ROF means you can fit less health and not have to worry about being two-shotted in under a second. (4) Means that a shotgun scout will have to spec into shotguns further in order to regain their high DPS and killing power. All the discussion so far is a standard shotgun with no damage mods and no proficiency. I can hop on a brand new character, buy me some aurum shotguns (or for that matter militia ones) and be able to deal 1000 damage within a second. That is too much. You should pay for that, in both ISK and SP. If we were talking a Credron shotgun with 2 damage mods can deal 1000 damage within a second, some of the arguments would hold water. But a standard shotgun has more DPS than several proto weapons. That is ridiculous. These changes fix the issue of the shotgun scout running up on people and nearly insta-blapping them. All this does is mean you have to wait a little longer to get the killing blow, and lowers TTK. Even with 50RPM, the shotgun TTK is still lower (ie:it kills faster) than an equivalent rifle. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 152	Posted - 2014.11.13 00:44:00 - [82] - Quote I can't speak for other scouts, but I would prefer to run straight EWAR and Biotics on all my shotgun fits. Today, I fit HP modules out of necessity; it simply takes too long to kill HP-tanked Assaults and Heavies. Even at Proficiency V, even when running a Prototype Shotgun, and even when doing everything right, I must budget to take significant damage when "assassinating" the targets I've singled out and flanked. If adopted, this proposal would delete my remaining low-HP shotgun scout loadouts. If that's what is deemed best for Dust, then so be it. But I believe that be a move in the wrong direction. We should be thinking of ways to make Low HP loadouts more competitive and appealing. For me as a shotgun scout, this proposal does the exact opposite.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2160	Posted - 2014.11.14 01:37:00 - [83] - Quote Bump. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2171	Posted - 2014.11.15 17:39:00 - [84] - Quote Now we can add "able to put 1000 damage before the decloak animation is finished" to the argument. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Dergle Vengeance Unbound 48	Posted - 2014.11.16 22:58:00 - [85] - Quote Bump cause I'd like to see that dev tag on this thread :) Caldari Jingoist
manboar thunder fist Dead Man's Game RUST415 248	Posted - 2014.11.17 01:43:00 - [86] - Quote Shotguns are nt even a problem... Using a gun beats shotgun Easily Using a gun does not beat heavy or sniper 90% of time With a basic shotgun on a basic scout such as Apex serpent you die ridiculously fast and ridiculously easily... All you need to do is jump back and the shotgun scout is rendered useless. Range is a limiting factor, like the ion pistol and hmg, the highest damage is dealt up close... The only thing shotgun can one shot is ewar scouts... All other frames take at least 2 shots with many assaults taking 3 and heavies taking 4+. In order to get this close scouts need damps and kin cats, which are very fitting intensive and take away HP, no other role requires this sacrifice.... In all other games shotguns are 1 shot kills and have longer ranges and HIT DETECTION Be thankful your officer weapon works I think this thread is a noob with low situational awareness moan thread. Anyone who's half decent at the game will notice and eliminate shotgunners before they reach them NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life Delta- bye bye ads, bye bye scr
Doshneil Antaro Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 295	Posted - 2014.11.17 02:50:00 - [87] - Quote manboar thunder fist wrote: Shotguns are nt even a problem... Using a gun beats shotgun Easily Using a gun does not beat heavy or sniper 90% of time With a basic shotgun on a basic scout such as Apex serpent you die ridiculously fast and ridiculously easily... All you need to do is jump back and the shotgun scout is rendered useless. Range is a limiting factor, like the ion pistol and hmg, the highest damage is dealt up close... The only thing shotgun can one shot is ewar scouts... All other frames take at least 2 shots with many assaults taking 3 and heavies taking 4+. In order to get this close scouts need damps and kin cats, which are very fitting intensive and take away HP, no other role requires this sacrifice.... In all other games shotguns are 1 shot kills and have longer ranges and HIT DETECTION Be thankful your officer weapon works I think this thread is a noob with low situational awareness moan thread. Anyone who's half decent at the game will notice and eliminate shotgunners before they reach them Your first two paragraphs are correct, but from that point it becomes more opinion than fact. You need no ewar on a scout minus the cloak to close in on a logi or heavy undetected. Im sure most assaults for that matter. Shotguns are fine in there current state though so I do agree they need not be changed until cloaked scouts cannot fire of any rounds until they uncloak. Sage /thread
manboar thunder fist Dead Man's Game RUST415 249	Posted - 2014.11.17 04:19:00 - [88] - Quote This is already in effect. Cloaking now means you can't charge your knives or fire your shotgun when you decloak NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life Delta- bye bye ads, bye bye scr


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