DUST Search - To Rattati: the shotgun tested with proposal. SCIENCE INSIDE!!

Kensai Dragon wrote:

Vitantur Nothus wrote:

Alena Ventrallis wrote:

And yes, the shotgun can deliver 1000 damage in a second. Its not hard to understand, unless your trying to obfusticate the issue. If you can fire faster than 60 RPM, which is one shot a second, then you are firing more than one shot in a second. There is no arguing over this. The math proves it, the gameplay proves it.

I don't think anyone here is trying to obfuscate the issue. Let's approach this differently for the sake of clarity:

At 85.71 RPM
0 sec - 1st blast
1.4 sec - 2nd blast ( = 2 / (85.71 / 60)
2.1 sec - 3rd blast ( = 3 / (85.71 / 60)
2.8 sec - 4th blast ( = 4 / (85.71 / 60)

Applied
If a given Sentinel requires 4 shotgun blasts to kill, the fastest a shotgunner can kill that Sentinel is 2.8 seconds.

Interesting observation:

By my math, four shotgun blasts are required to kill a max-HP AM Sentinel, whether the Shotgunner is wielding a STD, ADV or PRO shotgun.

* Assumes max proficiency and 100% of pellets on target (i.e. distance 0-1 meters).

Opposite from your math

60 second per minute
85.71 shot per minute 60/85.71=0.7 seconds per shot
0=1st shot
0.7=2nd shot
1.4=3rd shot
2.1=4th shot


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 111	Posted - 2014.11.09 21:50:00 - [1] - Quote Barbershop test had similar findings ... * Full damage potential only reached point-blank range. * Damage output declines exponentially outside of 4-5m. * Damage variance increases with range. Questions for OP: 1) By your math, how many shotgun blasts are needed to kill a well-fit AM sentinel? 2) Why is it a problem that a weapon with a 4m range can out-DPS weapons with 10x - 20x that range? 3) Assuming range was increased and RoF decreased, why use a shotgun if it has far less range and similar DPS to Fine Rifles?
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 111	Posted - 2014.11.10 00:27:00 - [2] - Quote @ Manboar Get out of here with your sound reasoning, good sir! Short-range Shotguns shouldn't out-DPS long-range Rifles in close quarters. Because they OHK militia MedFrames and Scouts!
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 112	Posted - 2014.11.10 00:40:00 - [3] - Quote Victor Moody Stahl wrote: Do keep in mind that the proposal doesn't touch the actual damage values in the slightest- a shotgun is still doing just under 500 damage per shot. It just doesn't do it quite as fast, but it does do it from a little further away. What do you want, ultra-megadeath DPS, or the range to actually apply it and not have to be kissing the eyeballs of your chosen victim? If the shotgun fired a slug, then the thinking in this thread would make more sense. At 20m, one or two pellets might connect with one blast and five or six in the next. In the best of pellet spread cases, variance would be wild at 20m; militia rifles would put damage on target faster and more reliably than a proto shotgun. Extending optimal to over 9000m! would have the same effect. Because the shotgun does not fire a slug.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 112	Posted - 2014.11.10 00:49:00 - [4] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: If 1000 damage can be dealt in under a second by an unmodified standard weapon, there is a problem. According to protofits, SG RoF is 85.71 ... I believe that translates to roughly 2 blasts every 3 seconds (rather than 2 blasts every 1 second). Is my math wrong?
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 112	Posted - 2014.11.10 02:04:00 - [5] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: And yes, the shotgun can deliver 1000 damage in a second. Its not hard to understand, unless your trying to obfusticate the issue. If you can fire faster than 60 RPM, which is one shot a second, then you are firing more than one shot in a second. There is no arguing over this. The math proves it, the gameplay proves it. I don't think anyone here is trying to obfuscate the issue. Let's approach this differently for the sake of clarity: At 85.71 RPM 0 sec - 1st blast 1.4 sec - 2nd blast ( = 2 / (85.71 / 60) 2.1 sec - 3rd blast ( = 3 / (85.71 / 60) 2.8 sec - 4th blast ( = 4 / (85.71 / 60) Applied If a given Sentinel requires 4 shotgun blasts to kill, the fastest a shotgunner can kill that Sentinel is 2.8 seconds.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 112	Posted - 2014.11.10 02:18:00 - [6] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: At 85.71 RPM 0 sec - 1st blast 1.4 sec - 2nd blast ( = 2 / (85.71 / 60) 2.1 sec - 3rd blast ( = 3 / (85.71 / 60) 2.8 sec - 4th blast ( = 4 / (85.71 / 60) Applied If a given Sentinel requires 4 shotgun blasts to kill, the fastest a shotgunner can kill that Sentinel is 2.8 seconds. Proposal A - 50 RPM 0 sec - 1st blast 2.4 sec - 2nd blast ( = 2 / (50 / 60) 3.6 sec - 3rd blast ( = 3 / (50 / 60) 4.8 sec - 4th blast ( = 4 / (50 / 60) Proposal A - Applied If a given Sentinel requires 4 shotgun blasts to kill, the fastest a shotgunner can kill that Sentinel is 4.8 seconds. Proposal B - 62.5 RPM 0 sec - 1st blast 1.9 sec - 2nd blast ( = 2 / (62.5 / 60) 2.9 sec - 3rd blast ( = 3 / (62.5 / 60) 3.8 sec - 4th blast ( = 4 / (62.5 / 60) Proposal B - Applied If a given Sentinel requires 4 shotgun blasts to kill, the fastest a shotgunner can kill that Sentinel is 3.8 seconds.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 112	Posted - 2014.11.10 02:24:00 - [7] - Quote Kensai Dragon wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: And yes, the shotgun can deliver 1000 damage in a second. Its not hard to understand, unless your trying to obfusticate the issue. If you can fire faster than 60 RPM, which is one shot a second, then you are firing more than one shot in a second. There is no arguing over this. The math proves it, the gameplay proves it. I don't think anyone here is trying to obfuscate the issue. Let's approach this differently for the sake of clarity: At 85.71 RPM 0 sec - 1st blast 1.4 sec - 2nd blast ( = 2 / (85.71 / 60) 2.1 sec - 3rd blast ( = 3 / (85.71 / 60) 2.8 sec - 4th blast ( = 4 / (85.71 / 60) Applied If a given Sentinel requires 4 shotgun blasts to kill, the fastest a shotgunner can kill that Sentinel is 2.8 seconds. Interesting observation: By my math, four shotgun blasts are required to kill a max-HP AM Sentinel, whether the Shotgunner is wielding a STD, ADV or PRO shotgun. * Assumes max proficiency and 100% of pellets on target (i.e. distance 0-1 meters). Opposite from your math 60 second per minute 85.71 shot per minute 60/85.71=0.7 seconds per shot 0=1st shot 0.7=2nd shot 1.4=3rd shot 2.1=4th shot Seconds per Shot =/= Shots per Second. For this approach to work, 1st shot would need to read 0.7 seconds: 0.7 - 1st shot 1.4 - 2nd shot 2.1 - 3rd shot 2.8 - 4th shot Test your math in game; I'm confident you'll find that the shotgun fires 3 blasts every 2 seconds (not 4 blasts).
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 116	Posted - 2014.11.10 03:30:00 - [8] - Quote Fortunately, we don't have to grab a stopwatch and test in game; protofits is kind enough to calculate DPS for us. At max proficiency, the Creodron Shotgun's DPS of 867.39. 12 pellets at 50.6 dmg per pellet = 607.2 per blast. If the shotgun's RoF permitted it to fire 4 times in 2 seconds, its DPS would be closer to 1,214.4 (rather than the given 867.39). TL;DR: The shotgun fires roughly 3x every 2 seconds. Not 4x. Edit: If you guys really think I'm trying to pull your leg, I would encourage you to turn on Dust, equip a shotgun and measure how many seconds lapse between blast #1 and blast #4.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 116	Posted - 2014.11.10 12:32:00 - [9] - Quote @ Alena If Shotgun fired 2 rounds per second, its RoF would be would be 120 RPM (not 85). Can it get off 2 shots within a one second interval? Yes. But that absolutely doesn't mean it can get off 4 shots within 2 seconds. @ Aeon Shotgun Proficiency was changed from + RoF to + Shield Efficacy.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 117	Posted - 2014.11.10 15:52:00 - [10] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: This makes the DPS calculation of 900 a little high but not totally inaccurate in terms of the "real world" application of the weapons damage. I realized that this will add to your grumbling, but ... We can't make reasonable claims about "real world" damage application if we've assumed unreasonable "real world" parameters. In practice, targets do not remain stationary and centered at 0m when being shotgunned.

Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 118	Posted - 2014.11.10 16:32:00 - [11] - Quote Kensai Dragon wrote: Lol, this is quite fun(ny), but I think at the bottom of all of this we can agree that the shotgun has a VERY high alpha damage with VERY short range, making it a very niche and essentially one class weapon. Again I'll reiterate my thought of halving the damage and doubling the range. I think this is a fair starting point to submit to Rattati and Crew. Any takers? This idea is quite bad, and I'll attempt to explain why. At 0 meters, no pellets will miss your target and 8 blasts would be needed to kill an armor-based sentinel. This will take somewhere between 5 and 6 seconds, assuming you've perfect aim, timing and the sentinel does not move. At 5 meters -- well within your new optimal range -- a percentage of pellets will miss your target. At 10 meters -- the outer limit of your new optimal range -- the majority of your pellets will miss your target. Even if he's standing still. Even if you have perfect aim.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 121	Posted - 2014.11.11 00:02:00 - [12] - Quote Kensai Dragon wrote: manboar thunder fist wrote: All I see in this thread are forum warriors who want to once again buff heavy spam until it breaks dust forever. So many people are leaving already because of these "cowardly tactics". Many of the vets claim there is "no gun game" anymore, and shotgun Is not as easy it seems, I bet half of the people here don't even use a shotgun yet complain about it, trust me missing is easier than you think, much easier. Interesting, I don't recall anyone calling for increase in heavy spam, or necessarily a nerf to the shotgun, but an attempt to make it useful across platforms. Specifically, useful as an assault suit option. If you suspect a lower RoF / higher range / tighter spread / harder hitting variant might fit the bill ... why not ask Rattati to tailor the Breach Shotgun to meet your specifications?
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 121	Posted - 2014.11.11 02:16:00 - [13] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: For the hundredth time, we are talking about a standard weapon, no proficiency, no damage mods. A creodrone shotgun will kill an AMARR SENTINEL in 3 shots. The most HP possible on a dropsuit goes down in 3 to 4 shots. That's ridiculous. You are taking the best possible sentinel against the worst possible shotgun and saying that this engagement is balanced. Based on this alone, we see the shotgun is OP. My changes will continue to make the shotgun useful, while not being the be-all-end-all for any given engagement. With respect, this more an opinion than science. Not to say yours isn't a valid opinion, but here is mine: It is absolutely necessary for Shotguns to kill Sentinels quickly. Current mechanics already permit Heavies too great an opportunity to emerge victorious from perfectly executed "surprise" attacks from behind. If Shotgun vs Heavy TTK were lengthened, Heavies would dominate the majority of these encounters. Heavies are already lacking in hard counters; it would be ill-advised to remove another.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 152	Posted - 2014.11.12 22:39:00 - [14] - Quote Mexxx Dust-Slayer wrote: This is not a nerf we are talking about. Reducing Shotgun RoF is a huge nerf. Even if a range extension worked perfectly, a slower shotgun means increased odds of surviving a shotgun to the back. This proposal reinforces "HP is King" as it (1) rewards those capable of withstanding the first blast by granting them more time to respond and (2) penalizes those who fail to HP tank by increasing the range within which they are OHK'd.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 152	Posted - 2014.11.13 00:44:00 - [15] - Quote I can't speak for other scouts, but I would prefer to run straight EWAR and Biotics on all my shotgun fits. Today, I fit HP modules out of necessity; it simply takes too long to kill HP-tanked Assaults and Heavies. Even at Proficiency V, even when running a Prototype Shotgun, and even when doing everything right, I must budget to take significant damage when "assassinating" the targets I've singled out and flanked. If adopted, this proposal would delete my remaining low-HP shotgun scout loadouts. If that's what is deemed best for Dust, then so be it. But I believe that be a move in the wrong direction. We should be thinking of ways to make Low HP loadouts more competitive and appealing. For me as a shotgun scout, this proposal does the exact opposite.