OMG. This circular math discussion is driving me crazy. I barely care about this change and I still just can't take it.

It just shouldn't be that hard to understand:

No, you do NOT get 2 shots EVERY second. That would, in fact, equate to 120 RPM, not 85.

-however-

You DO get 2 shots in THE FIRST second.

0 sec: 1 shot
0.7 sec: 2 shots
-- one second has elapsed --

1.4 sec: 3 shots
-- two seconds have elapsed --

2.1 sec: 4 shots
2.8 sec: 5 shots
-- 3 seconds have elapsed --

3.6 sec: 6 shots
-- 4 seconds have elapsed --

As you can see, you get 2 shots in one second, but don't get 4 shots in 2 seconds. If you go out further to the entire minute, you drop a few more of those second shots per second (which is a confusing phrase, isn't it?) and lose...
wait for it...
120-85 = 35 shots, or a little more than one every other second, as you can see in the timeline above.

Edit: So, for an alpha weapon, logically the DPS should be heavily weighted towards the first few seconds. Above you get 2 shots in one second, 2 x 480 = 960dps, or 5 shots in 3 seconds, (5 x 480)/3 = 800dps. This makes the DPS calculation of 900 a little high but not totally inaccurate in terms of the "real world" application of the weapons damage.

Only if you happen to choose 2 seconds (3x480)/2 = 720, are you not higher than an HMG (you are equal)

*walks away grumbling*

I know, I agree with you. But my point is, that you can get two blast off within a second. No, you cannot always get two blasts off in EVERY second, but some seconds will have two blasts, because you are able to fire 85 rounds in 60 seconds, which necessitates that some of those seconds have two rounds fired within them.

More importantly, it's the fact that you are guaranteed to get two blasts off within the FIRST second, which is what I've been talking about. The alpha damage is incredibly high (working as intended) but the fact that you can then refire inside of a second (because you can get a shot off every 0.7 seconds) is the issue. I want the shotgun to have its high alpha, so I would lower DPS by ROF. I would also increase range, making it useful on my Galmanndo as much as your scout.

ON THIS POINT, yes at 20m some pellets will miss. But 7-8 pellets hitting for full damage causes more damage than 12 pellets hitting for reduced damage. If increases your damage projection, even if a few pellets miss.

All I see in this thread are forum warriors who want to once again buff heavy spam until it breaks dust forever. So many people are leaving already because of these "cowardly tactics". Many of the vets claim there is "no gun game" anymore, and shotgun Is not as easy it seems, I bet half of the people here don't even use a shotgun yet complain about it, trust me missing is easier than you think, much easier.

Interesting, I don't recall anyone calling for increase in heavy spam, or necessarily a nerf to the shotgun, but an attempt to make it useful across platforms. Specifically, useful as an assault suit option.

UNTIL heavies are nerfed there is no justification for nerfing shotguns.
Landing 4 shots takes roughly the same time as killing a proto suit in a boundless hmg heavy, in fact it's a lot easier for heavy to kill the scout than the scout the heavy.

The shotgun is a surprise high damage short range weapon, in most shooters it is a one shot kill and is the most lethal weapon in the close quarters. Any scout with a shotgun is not a threat. Any player with a heavy machine gun is a very very dangerous threat, even militia heavies can kill other players and proto suits in less than the time it takes to kill them. Every match today I find 50% heavies 20% logis 10% assaults 20% scouts.

Any one can use an hmg where as using a scout require a whole bunch of skills such as dampening. My basic Amarr heavy with mh82 goes 5.0 kdr regularly, yet even though I consider myself a decent shotgunner I die to even militia heavies if they get their sights on me. Even with such the shotgun is not as effective as other guns because of its niche. You can't run into a room and shotgun everyone because you have low HP, this balances the shotgun. You can go in and kill 10 players with an hmg and that's fine? What about when 10 people are using hmgs. I am sick of heavy spam, all you can do is use remotes or shotgun, and even then it is more costly for you because their basic heavy fits are worthless.

The shotgun doesn't need a nerf, it has been around for ages and continues to be a niche weapon that requires skill.
The breach shotgun continues to be the most underused weapon in dust, buff it.
The hmg needs a nerf first if shotgun gets nerfed, that thing is seriously op and accounts for majority of Isk spent and kills in dust I reckon.

For the hundredth time, we are talking about a standard weapon, no proficiency, no damage mods. A creodrone shotgun will kill an AMARR SENTINEL in 3 shots. The most HP possible on a dropsuit goes down in 3 to 4 shots. That's ridiculous.

You are taking the best possible sentinel against the worst possible shotgun and saying that this engagement is balanced. Based on this alone, we see the shotgun is OP. My changes will continue to make the shotgun useful, while not being the be-all-end-all for any given engagement.

With respect, this ^ is more opinion than science. Here is another opinion:

It is absolutely necessary for Shotguns to kill Sentinels quickly. Current mechanics already permit high-HP Heavies too great an opportunity to emerge victorious from perfectly executed "surprise" attacks from behind. If Shotgun vs Heavy TTK were lengthened, Heavies would dominate the majority of these encounters. This is an unacceptable outcome.

Furthermore, it is absolutely necessary and appropriate for Shotguns to significantly out-DPS ranged weapons in CQC. Their damage output does and should reflect their severe range limitation. It is completely "fair" that a standard shotgun's DMG/DPS at 0m to 5m is far greater than that of a weapon with 10x to 20x its optimal range.

All I see in this thread are forum warriors who want to once again buff heavy spam until it breaks dust forever. So many people are leaving already because of these "cowardly tactics". Many of the vets claim there is "no gun game" anymore, and shotgun Is not as easy it seems, I bet half of the people here don't even use a shotgun yet complain about it, trust me missing is easier than you think, much easier.

This is not a nerf we are talking about.

Reducing Shotgun RoF is a huge nerf. Even if a range extension worked perfectly, a slower shotgun means increased odds of surviving a shotgun to the back.

This proposal reinforces "HP is King" as it (1) rewards those capable of withstanding the first blast by granting them more time to respond and (2) penalizes those who fail to HP tank by increasing the range within which they are OHK'd.

Shotguns are nt even a problem...

Using a gun beats shotgun Easily
Using a gun does not beat heavy or sniper 90% of time

With a basic shotgun on a basic scout such as Apex serpent you die ridiculously fast and ridiculously easily... All you need to do is jump back and the shotgun scout is rendered useless.


Range is a limiting factor, like the ion pistol and hmg, the highest damage is dealt up close... The only thing shotgun can one shot is ewar scouts... All other frames take at least 2 shots with many assaults taking 3 and heavies taking 4+.
In order to get this close scouts need damps and kin cats, which are very fitting intensive and take away HP, no other role requires this sacrifice....


In all other games shotguns are 1 shot kills and have longer ranges and HIT DETECTION
Be thankful your officer weapon works
I think this thread is a noob with low situational awareness moan thread. Anyone who's half decent at the game will notice and eliminate shotgunners before they reach them