DUST Search - To Rattati: the shotgun tested with proposal. SCIENCE INSIDE!!

Alena Ventrallis wrote:

Vitantur Nothus wrote:

@ Alena
If the Shotgun fired 2 rounds per second, its RoF would be would be 120 RPM (not 85). While it can get off 2 blasts within a one second interval, it most certainly cannot get off 4 blasts within 2 a second interval. Here's why ...

Each blast is followed by a lengthy recovery period. A two blast sequence includes only one recovery period. A three blast sequence includes two, and a four blast sequence includes three. Your argument applies only when describing a 2HK (blast+recovery+blast) scenario, but we must account for the increase in number of recovery periods when estimated TTK for 3HK+ engagements (i.e. Sentinels).

@ Aeon
Shotgun Proficiency was changed from + RoF to + Shield Efficacy.

I know, I agree with you. But my point is, that you can get two blast off within a second. No, you cannot always get two blasts off in EVERY second, but some seconds will have two blasts, because you are able to fire 85 rounds in 60 seconds, which necessitates that some of those seconds have two rounds fired within them.

More importantly, it's the fact that you are guaranteed to get two blasts off within the FIRST second, which is what I've been talking about. The alpha damage is incredibly high (working as intended) but the fact that you can then refire inside of a second (because you can get a shot off every 0.7 seconds) is the issue. I want the shotgun to have its high alpha, so I would lower DPS by ROF. I would also increase range, making it useful on my Galmanndo as much as your scout.

ON THIS POINT, yes at 20m some pellets will miss. But 7-8 pellets hitting for full damage causes more damage than 12 pellets hitting for reduced damage. If increases your damage projection, even if a few pellets miss.


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Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 62	Posted - 2014.11.10 00:00:00 - [1] - Quote Balance the shotgun in tiers. MLT / Basic = 4 pellet (0.410 sg) Advanced = 8 pellet (20 gauge) Prototype = 12 pellet (12 gauge) Officer = 14 pellet (10 gauge) Or, reduce the DMG per pellet MLT / Basic = 10 DMG / pellet (# 4 birdshot) Advance = 20 DMG / pellet (#2 birdshot) Prototype = 40 DMG / pellet (#00 buckshot) Officer = 50 DMG / pellet (12 gauge slug) Additionally, make 2 variants at advanced level and up, full choke for range and open cylinder for close crowd control. Both would still be instant kill at hugging distance.
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 62	Posted - 2014.11.10 02:18:00 - [2] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: And yes, the shotgun can deliver 1000 damage in a second. Its not hard to understand, unless your trying to obfusticate the issue. If you can fire faster than 60 RPM, which is one shot a second, then you are firing more than one shot in a second. There is no arguing over this. The math proves it, the gameplay proves it. I don't think anyone here is trying to obfuscate the issue. Let's approach this differently for the sake of clarity: At 85.71 RPM 0 sec - 1st blast 1.4 sec - 2nd blast ( = 2 / (85.71 / 60) 2.1 sec - 3rd blast ( = 3 / (85.71 / 60) 2.8 sec - 4th blast ( = 4 / (85.71 / 60) Applied If a given Sentinel requires 4 shotgun blasts to kill, the fastest a shotgunner can kill that Sentinel is 2.8 seconds. Interesting observation: By my math, four shotgun blasts are required to kill a max-HP AM Sentinel, whether the Shotgunner is wielding a STD, ADV or PRO shotgun. * Assumes max proficiency and 100% of pellets on target (i.e. distance 0-1 meters). Opposite from your math 60 second per minute 85.71 shot per minute 60/85.71=0.7 seconds per shot 0=1st shot 0.7=2nd shot 1.4=3rd shot 2.1=4th shot
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 62	Posted - 2014.11.10 02:23:00 - [3] - Quote In other words, 85.71 shots per 60 seconds means: 0.7 seconds / shot Or 1.43 shots / second Shots are binary, they either do or don't, fractional shots don't happen. So 2 shot in 1 second, 3 shots in 2 seconds, 5 shots in 3 seconds.
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 62	Posted - 2014.11.10 02:59:00 - [4] - Quote You're telling me that you stand still for 0.7 seconds before you pull the trigger? Time starts at the first shot fired. If I'm running around a corner and see you, I fire. Then, 0.7 seconds later I fire again. Second (2nd) shot happens less than 1 second of time after the first. I just sent 2 shots within the first 1 second of time of engagement.
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 62	Posted - 2014.11.10 03:11:00 - [5] - Quote The confusion seems to be shots / sec vs sec/shot. At 85.71 RPM, that is 85.71 rounds /60 seconds, yielding 1.43 shots in 1 second. Since you can't have a partial shot, 1.0001 shots = 2 shots for that period of time. Continuing on will show 2.8 shots in 2 seconds which equals 3 full shots. 4.2 shots in 3 =5, etc At 60 seconds / 85.71 rounds you will yield 0.7 seconds / round. Time starts when you see the enemy and fire. Again, 2nd shot at 0.7s, 3rd at 1.4s, 4th at 2.1s, etc
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 62	Posted - 2014.11.10 04:06:00 - [6] - Quote Are you seriously trying to negate the first shot as counting towards the total? Protofits.com is taking the 1.4*DMG to get DPS. Anyways, those that know will start the time at the first shot. Then, 3 later will be 2 seconds later. 1+3=4. Your welcome.
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 62	Posted - 2014.11.10 04:33:00 - [7] - Quote Back to the topic, why not halve the damage and double the range? With half the damage and effective range out to, say, 30 meters, optimal range should be about 10 meters I think. Effective range is 30% DMG, optimal I think is 70%, could be wrong on that stat. So at point blank with no bonuses/mods, 240 DMG. Headshot multiplier applies, so I think 360 DMG to the head. Able to do up to 252 DMG per headshot, or 168 DMG body up to 10 meters out. Does this sound like a compromise between assault / Commando and scout? Anyone who knows the stats for sure is welcome to correct the numbers
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 62	Posted - 2014.11.10 05:10:00 - [8] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: manboar thunder fist wrote: 0.4 shots rounds down not up. You don't get 2 shots a second You are misunderstanding. If the ROF is 60 rounds a minute, then that's 60 shots / 60 seconds for 1 round a second. 85.71 means you can get rounds off faster than once a second. Therefore, 2 rounds can be shot within a second. If you want, time it. Start the stopwatch once the first shotgun round goes off, and stop it once the second shot goes off. It will be less than a second. Anything higher than 60 RPM shoots more than one round a second. 2 rounds in a second at some time. However, for all intents and purposes, it isn't 2 rounds per second. That's true, but you DO get 2 shots in the first second, and you do get 2 shots in any given 1 second frame of time. That is the critical point with this particular weapon.
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 62	Posted - 2014.11.10 16:15:00 - [9] - Quote Lol, this is quite fun(ny), but I think at the bottom of all of this we can agree that the shotgun has a VERY high alpha damage with VERY short range, making it a very niche and essentially one class weapon. Again I'll reiterate my thought of halving the damage and doubling the range. I think this is a fair starting point to submit to Rattati and Crew. Any takers?
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 62	Posted - 2014.11.10 17:52:00 - [10] - Quote Fair enough, I've never been in PC, and only sometimes in FW, so I don't see many ak.0 suits running around. However, Scouts are supposed to utilize the EWAR bonuses to be selective in targets, right? Tanked Assaults should still be taken out with 3-4 shots, and the small increase in range should allow Assaults to also use it as a viable CQC weapon. Most of my time is in pubs, so I'm just throwing out ideas trying to find a balance.

Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 62	Posted - 2014.11.10 21:57:00 - [11] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: @ Alena If the Shotgun fired 2 rounds per second, its RoF would be would be 120 RPM (not 85). While it can get off 2 blasts within a one second interval, it most certainly cannot get off 4 blasts within 2 a second interval. Here's why ... Each blast is followed by a lengthy recovery period. A two blast sequence includes only one recovery period. A three blast sequence includes two, and a four blast sequence includes three. Your argument applies only when describing a 2HK (blast+recovery+blast) scenario, but we must account for the increase in number of recovery periods when estimated TTK for 3HK+ engagements (i.e. Sentinels). @ Aeon Shotgun Proficiency was changed from + RoF to + Shield Efficacy. I know, I agree with you. But my point is, that you can get two blast off within a second. No, you cannot always get two blasts off in EVERY second, but some seconds will have two blasts, because you are able to fire 85 rounds in 60 seconds, which necessitates that some of those seconds have two rounds fired within them. More importantly, it's the fact that you are guaranteed to get two blasts off within the FIRST second, which is what I've been talking about. The alpha damage is incredibly high (working as intended) but the fact that you can then refire inside of a second (because you can get a shot off every 0.7 seconds) is the issue. I want the shotgun to have its high alpha, so I would lower DPS by ROF. I would also increase range, making it useful on my Galmanndo as much as your scout. ON THIS POINT, yes at 20m some pellets will miss. But 7-8 pellets hitting for full damage causes more damage than 12 pellets hitting for reduced damage. If increases your damage projection, even if a few pellets miss. I like this. Decrease RoF and increase range. Instead of pump action open cylinder, breach loaded IM choke. Maybe even a slight DMG buff as well (480 to 520 or so?).
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 62	Posted - 2014.11.10 23:57:00 - [12] - Quote manboar thunder fist wrote: All I see in this thread are forum warriors who want to once again buff heavy spam until it breaks dust forever. So many people are leaving already because of these "cowardly tactics". Many of the vets claim there is "no gun game" anymore, and shotgun Is not as easy it seems, I bet half of the people here don't even use a shotgun yet complain about it, trust me missing is easier than you think, much easier. Interesting, I don't recall anyone calling for increase in heavy spam, or necessarily a nerf to the shotgun, but an attempt to make it useful across platforms. Specifically, useful as an assault suit option.