DUST Search - To Rattati: the shotgun tested with proposal. SCIENCE INSIDE!!

Victor Moody Stahl wrote:

manboar thunder fist wrote:

Kind of ridiculous though when you get 2 shots into a heavy and they turn around and spray you down in half a second before the third can be fired.

Shotguns need high dps because range is a huge limiting factor, as range vs dps is the best way to create balance the shotgun should have highest dps of all weapons. The heavy machine gun needs a dps/overheat nerf in order to reduce heavy spam. With less heavies being spammed, less shot gunners need to be present, as they are counters to each other. A heavy can kill any other suit 1 v 1 in its effective range very easily, but this range is too high, it needs more spread or shorter range. Currently using the AR is very hard to kill heavy since few M and heavy has advantage. The hmg range is too high

HMG range is, in fact, too low. Consider just what the HMG is supposed to be- a heavy machine gun. As in, the kind of ordnance that one creative US Marine once used as sniper weapon. Incredible range and firepower... but similarly incredible weight, bulk, and ungainliness.

You should check out Breakin Stuff's thread on that for more information.

With that out of the way... I cannot in any way agree that the shotgun in its present state is a good weapon. The fact that it requires a scout suit to actually make use of it, and is more-or-less useless for medframes and of very limited utility for commandos is simply bad game design. Now, I'm not sure of a 20 meter optimal range; 15 seems like it would be better to at least start with, and then iterate on from there- Rattati has shown a great deal of interest in continued iteration... as evidenced by the continued changes to the racial rifles, and the similar iterations on the Burst HMG and regular HMG heat buildup.

So, overall, I think that the proposed changes are very desirable. 20 meters is, IMO, a tad too much, and 15 would be a better starting point, but that's my opinion on just the range- a rate of fire nerf is pretty desirable IMO, since it keeps the DPS from getting too far out of hand, and the optimal range tweak will nicely compensate for that while also making it much more viable to use on medium frames in general as well as the commandos (most especially GalMando).


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Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2120	Posted - 2014.11.09 20:16:00 - [1] - Quote First, a shout out to my test subjects Boss SobanRe and Mexx Dust-Slayer. Without them this test would never have happened. The purpose: To determine how many pellets a shotgun blast has, and from there calculate a shotguns total damage and DPS. The test: I used a standard shotgun with no proficiency and no damage mods. This shotgun was used on all tests. Test subjects used Sentinel cko with full rack of extenders, and one militia heavy frame with 1 complex extender. Procedure: record subjects total shield health before shot, record efficiency of shotgun. Fire one shot into body from 0m away (standing right against him) to ensure all pellets impact subject and none accidentally hit the head. Record shield after shot. Results were as follows. 1st test: Sentinel cko. 835 total shield, 93% efficiency. Shield dropped to 386 after one shot. Total damage: 449 2nd test: Sentinel cko. 911 total shield, 93% efficiency. Shield dropped to 462 after one shot. Total damage: 449 3rd test: Militia minmatar heavy frame. 585 shields, 110% efficiency. Shield dropped to 57. Total damage: 528 Results: It appears that the standard shotgun does 480 damage assuming all pellets impact. With a damage of 40 per pellet, this gives a total of 12 pellets in a single blast. Now for the math. (480 damage x 85.71 RPM)/60 seconds gives a dps of 685.68 DPS from a standard shotgun. As a comparison, the standard HMG has a DPS of 720. Here lies the issue: Not only does the shotgun have a high alpha strike, it also has one of the highest DPS of any weapon. A standard shotgun has comparable DPS to an HMG. By another comparison, the Boundless CR has a DPS of 594 assuming you time all the bursts perfectly. A proto weapon is being outDPSed by a standard weapon by almost 100 DPS. This is where a lot of people have issue. 2 shots for a total of 960 damage can be delivered in under a second. 960 damage in a second from a standard weapon. However, the shotgun also has an extremely short range. 4m optimal range is ridiculous, you have to be hugging someone in order to apply full damage. This is why shotgun scouts are so annoying. There high speed allows them to close the distance quicker, negating this disadvantage. Thus the insane amount of shotgun scouts we have today. My proposal has two objectives. A. To make the shotgun retain its high alpha strike, while lowering its DPS. B. To make the shotgun useful on frames other than scouts. Here are my changes: 1. Reduce rate of fire considerably. If possible, I would have the shotgun ** between rounds. The animation for it is seen at the end of the shotgun reload. Barring that, a ROF of 50.00 RPM brings the total DPS to about 400. A secondary number would be a ROF of 62.50, which gives a DPS of 500. NOTE THAT THIS IS A STANDARD WEAPON WE ARE TALKING ABOUT.** This allows the shotgun to have a high alpha strike, while being low DPS. This allows a suit time to respond to a shotgun threat, assuming it isn't killed outright. 2. Increase range to 15m. If necessary, increase to 20m. This means a shotgun can engage targets from farther away, meaning you don't have to be right next to them in order to apply full damage. With this change, we can have other suits, like mediums and commandos, be viable when using a shotgun, promoting diversity. In all, the goal is to reduce the shotguns ability to kill anything that isn't a bricked sentinel in under a second by increasing the time between shots, and to increase the range so that other frames have an opportunity to use it without being gimped. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2122	Posted - 2014.11.09 20:41:00 - [2] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: show me the spreadsheet. Please use comparisons to other weapon DPS rates for reference and comparison. Spreadsheet inbound. Give me a few minutes. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2124	Posted - 2014.11.09 21:10:00 - [3] - Quote XxVEXESxX wrote: Dont think range is an issue. I get killed at 8m on average anyways. Its the dps for sure. those numbers should be on a lvl 5 commando with a proto shotgun and a damage mod, not on the weapons baseline stats. But the range is only mitigatable on scout suits. this shouldn't be. It should be viable on a commando frame as much as a scout frame. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2124	Posted - 2014.11.09 21:11:00 - [4] - Quote OP updated with spreadsheet. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2126	Posted - 2014.11.09 22:04:00 - [5] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Barbershop test had similar findings ... * Full damage potential only reached point-blank range. * Damage output declines exponentially outside of 4-5m. * Damage variance increases with range. Questions for OP: 1) By your math, how many shotgun blasts are needed to kill a well-fit AM sentinel? 2) Why is it a problem that a weapon with a 4m range can out-DPS weapons with 10x - 20x that range? 3) Assuming range was increased and RoF decreased, why use a shotgun if it has far less range and similar DPS to Fine Rifles? 1) At most, a full tank AmSentinel would take 4 shots to down. This is a total of 1920 damage. Of course, 3 shots would leave the AmSentinel with under 300 armor, which is easy to eat through with an SMG. 2) Because only scouts can negate this disadvantage. A commando should be just as viable as a scout with a shotgun. In addition, the shotgun TTK with my changes is still lower than the rifle TTK because of the large alpha damage. ie: the shotgun still kills faster than the rifles, because it takes far fewer shots to kill than the rifles do. 3) Because it has much higher alpha. Many suits would still be OHKO, most would take 2, which is still less TTK than a comparable rifle, and a Sentinel would still take 3 or 4, only now it would have comparable TTK to a rifle. In short, the range increase and ROF decrease means that more suits can use it, and means that you can't put out near 1000 damage in under a second. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2126	Posted - 2014.11.10 00:39:00 - [6] - Quote Victor Moody Stahl wrote: manboar thunder fist wrote: Kind of ridiculous though when you get 2 shots into a heavy and they turn around and spray you down in half a second before the third can be fired. Shotguns need high dps because range is a huge limiting factor, as range vs dps is the best way to create balance the shotgun should have highest dps of all weapons. The heavy machine gun needs a dps/overheat nerf in order to reduce heavy spam. With less heavies being spammed, less shot gunners need to be present, as they are counters to each other. A heavy can kill any other suit 1 v 1 in its effective range very easily, but this range is too high, it needs more spread or shorter range. Currently using the AR is very hard to kill heavy since few M and heavy has advantage. The hmg range is too high HMG range is, in fact, too low. Consider just what the HMG is supposed to be- a heavy machine gun. As in, the kind of ordnance that one creative US Marine once used as sniper weapon. Incredible range and firepower... but similarly incredible weight, bulk, and ungainliness. You should check out Breakin Stuff's thread on that for more information. With that out of the way... I cannot in any way agree that the shotgun in its present state is a good weapon. The fact that it requires a scout suit to actually make use of it, and is more-or-less useless for medframes and of very limited utility for commandos is simply bad game design. Now, I'm not sure of a 20 meter optimal range; 15 seems like it would be better to at least start with, and then iterate on from there- Rattati has shown a great deal of interest in continued iteration... as evidenced by the continued changes to the racial rifles, and the similar iterations on the Burst HMG and regular HMG heat buildup. So, overall, I think that the proposed changes are very desirable. 20 meters is, IMO, a tad too much, and 15 would be a better starting point, but that's my opinion on just the range- a rate of fire nerf is pretty desirable IMO, since it keeps the DPS from getting too far out of hand, and the optimal range tweak will nicely compensate for that while also making it much more viable to use on medium frames in general as well as the commandos (most especially GalMando). 15m is also doable. As long as mediums and commandos can make use of it. There should be multiple suits the shotgun is viable on, not just one. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2126	Posted - 2014.11.10 00:41:00 - [7] - Quote manboar thunder fist wrote: One thing you have to consider victor is that most times 1400 armour heavy 450 shields with a gun with HIGHER dps than scout Vs 150 shield 150 armour scout with an extremely short range weapon that takes over 4 shots to kill the heavy All the heavy has to do is turn and spray and he will instakill the scout, in pc this is prevalent as heavies destroy even good shotgun scouts . In order to remain balanced between killing assaults and killing heavies the alpha damage Cannot be too high, therefore the dps has to be. Landing more shots takes more skill than one large shot since players react, strafe and jump while back-pedalling. You expect a sentinel loaded with plates to strafe and jump enough to throw off a sneak attack by a shotgun scout? No weapon should have high alpha and high DPs. That is OP. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2126	Posted - 2014.11.10 00:43:00 - [8] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Victor Moody Stahl wrote: Do keep in mind that the proposal doesn't touch the actual damage values in the slightest- a shotgun is still doing just under 500 damage per shot. It just doesn't do it quite as fast, but it does do it from a little further away. What do you want, ultra-megadeath DPS, or the range to actually apply it and not have to be kissing the eyeballs of your chosen victim? If the shotgun fired a slug, then the thinking in this thread would make more sense. At 20m, one or two pellets might connect with one blast and five or six in the next. In the best of pellet spread cases, variance would be wild at 20m; militia rifles would put damage on target faster and more reliably than a proto shotgun. Extending optimal to over 9000m! would have the same effect. Because the shotgun does not fire a slug. And yet, you would still apply more DPs to the target. Dispersion can change, but as it stands, the shotgun is too powerful and not enough range. If only one suit type can use it, there's a problem. If 1000 damage can be dealt in under a second by an unmodified standard weapon, there is a problem. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2127	Posted - 2014.11.10 01:06:00 - [9] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: If 1000 damage can be dealt in under a second by an unmodified standard weapon, there is a problem. According to protofits, SG RoF is 85.71 ... I believe that translates to roughly 2 blasts every 3 seconds (rather than 2 blasts every 1 second). Is my math wrong? Your math is correct, your application is wrong. 85.71 RPM / 60 seconds in a minute gives us 1.4285 shots a second. That 0.4285 translates to a full shot, since you don't shoot any partial shots. Therefore, you can get two shots off in a second. 480x2 shots in a second gives us 960 damage within a second, almost 1000 damage. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2127	Posted - 2014.11.10 01:12:00 - [10] - Quote manboar thunder fist wrote: 0.4 shots rounds down not up. You don't get 2 shots a second You are misunderstanding. If the ROF is 60 rounds a minute, then that's 60 shots / 60 seconds for 1 round a second. 85.71 means you can get rounds off faster than once a second. Therefore, 2 rounds can be shot within a second. If you want, time it. Start the stopwatch once the first shotgun round goes off, and stop it once the second shot goes off. It will be less than a second. Anything higher than 60 RPM shoots more than one round a second. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.

Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2127	Posted - 2014.11.10 01:15:00 - [11] - Quote Also, keep in mind we are discussing a standard shotgun with no damage mods and no proficiency. This level of damage is available for 12k sp. We can run numbers with differenttiers and damage mods, but those numbers only help my case. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2127	Posted - 2014.11.10 01:17:00 - [12] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: If 1000 damage can be dealt in under a second by an unmodified standard weapon, there is a problem. According to protofits, SG RoF is 85.71 ... I believe that translates to roughly 2 blasts every 3 seconds (rather than 2 blasts every 1 second). Is my math wrong? At 85.71 RPM, we get 4 shots within 3 seconds. This is 1920 damage in 3 seconds. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2129	Posted - 2014.11.10 01:39:00 - [13] - Quote manboar thunder fist wrote: My suggestion: Fix heavy spam by increasing spread of hmg and overheat Shotgunners running kincats are already nerfed due to active team scans Increase shotgun range on breach to 15 m, add a slug effect and increase ammo capacity Besides, now shotguns have a cloak shooting delay To the person above me: Snipers deal 1000+ dmg in under a second Forge deals 1000+ dmg in under a second Rail turret deals 1000+ dmg in under a second The shotgun deals 450 dmg in a second. Name me one sniper able to deal 1000 DPS within a second. Forge guns are anti vehicle. Are you really going to compare a large rail turret to a standard weapon and not see an issue? And yes, the shotgun can deliver 1000 damage in a second. Its not hard to understand, unless your trying to obfusticate the issue. If you can fire faster than 60 RPM, which is one shot a second, then you are firing more than one shot in a second. There is no arguing over this. The math proves it, the gameplay proves it. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2129	Posted - 2014.11.10 02:32:00 - [14] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Kensai Dragon wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: And yes, the shotgun can deliver 1000 damage in a second. Its not hard to understand, unless your trying to obfusticate the issue. If you can fire faster than 60 RPM, which is one shot a second, then you are firing more than one shot in a second. There is no arguing over this. The math proves it, the gameplay proves it. I don't think anyone here is trying to obfuscate the issue. Let's approach this differently for the sake of clarity: At 85.71 RPM 0 sec - 1st blast 1.4 sec - 2nd blast ( = 2 / (85.71 / 60) 2.1 sec - 3rd blast ( = 3 / (85.71 / 60) 2.8 sec - 4th blast ( = 4 / (85.71 / 60) Applied If a given Sentinel requires 4 shotgun blasts to kill, the fastest a shotgunner can kill that Sentinel is 2.8 seconds. Interesting observation: By my math, four shotgun blasts are required to kill a max-HP AM Sentinel, whether the Shotgunner is wielding a STD, ADV or PRO shotgun. * Assumes max proficiency and 100% of pellets on target (i.e. distance 0-1 meters). Opposite from your math 60 second per minute 85.71 shot per minute 60/85.71=0.7 seconds per shot 0=1st shot 0.7=2nd shot 1.4=3rd shot 2.1=4th shot Seconds per Shot =/= Shots per Second. For this approach to work, 1st shot would need to read 0.7 seconds: 0.7 - 1st shot 1.4 - 2nd shot 2.1 - 3rd shot 2.8 - 4th shot Test your math in game; I'm confident you'll find that the shotgun fires 3 blasts every 2 seconds (not 4 blasts). False. Your first shot is always instant. The exception are rail weapons that require a charge up time. Therefore 1st shot: 0.0 seconds (instant) - 480 damage 2nd shot: 0.7 seconds (0.7 refire rate) - 960 damage (here we are at almost 1000 damage within a second) 3rd shot: 1.4 seconds - 1440 damage (enough to kill all but the Amarr Sentinel brick tanked. 4th shot: 2.1 seconds - 1920 damage, our Amarr sentinel is dead. If shotguns had a 0.7 second charge, your math would be correct. your skipping the initial shot. However, according you your math, you have proved you can indeed get 960 damage within a second. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2130	Posted - 2014.11.10 04:29:00 - [15] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Fortunately, we don't have to grab a stopwatch and test in game; protofits is kind enough to calculate DPS for us. At max proficiency, the Creodron Shotgun's DPS of 867.39. 12 pellets at 50.6 dmg per pellet = 607.2 per blast. If the shotgun's RoF permitted it to fire 4 times in ~2 seconds, its DPS would be closer to 1,214.4 (rather than the given 867.39). TL;DR: The shotgun fires roughly 3x every 2 seconds. Not 4x. If you guys still think I'm trying to pull your leg, I would encourage you to equip a shotgun and measure how many seconds lapse between blast #1 and blast #4. You'll find that you hit the 2 second mark right around the same time that you fire your 3rd shot (not the 4th). Your talking damage over time. Were talking g damage in a set time period. You can get two shots off within a second: one shot at the start of the second, and another 0.7 seconds later. Its not hard to understand. The timer starts as the first shot goes off. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2133	Posted - 2014.11.10 06:48:00 - [16] - Quote In addition, all damage numbers assume a standard weapon. 1000 damage in a second is really high. This is why shotgun scout are called OP. The one disadvantage of the shotgun, crippling range, is negated by cloaks and scout speed. We need to reduce its DPs, while buffing its range, to make it useful on a wider range of suit types. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2133	Posted - 2014.11.10 07:18:00 - [17] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: manboar thunder fist wrote: 0.4 shots rounds down not up. You don't get 2 shots a second You are misunderstanding. If the ROF is 60 rounds a minute, then that's 60 shots / 60 seconds for 1 round a second. 85.71 means you can get rounds off faster than once a second. Therefore, 2 rounds can be shot within a second. If you want, time it. Start the stopwatch once the first shotgun round goes off, and stop it once the second shot goes off. It will be less than a second. Anything higher than 60 RPM shoots more than one round a second. 2 rounds in a second at some time. However, for all intents and purposes, it isn't 2 rounds per second. False. For the purpose of seeing how many shots you can deal in a second, it is 2 rounds in a second. For calculating the potential damage dealt in a second, it is two rounds in a second. I could go on. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2139	Posted - 2014.11.10 18:25:00 - [18] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: @ Alena If the Shotgun fired 2 rounds per second, its RoF would be would be 120 RPM (not 85). While it can get off 2 blasts within a one second interval, it most certainly cannot get off 4 blasts within 2 a second interval. Here's why ... Each blast is followed by a lengthy recovery period. A two blast sequence includes only one recovery period. A three blast sequence includes two, and a four blast sequence includes three. Your argument applies only when describing a 2HK (blast+recovery+blast) scenario, but we must account for the increase in number of recovery periods when estimated TTK for 3HK+ engagements (i.e. Sentinels). @ Aeon Shotgun Proficiency was changed from + RoF to + Shield Efficacy. I know, I agree with you. But my point is, that you can get two blast off within a second. No, you cannot always get two blasts off in EVERY second, but some seconds will have two blasts, because you are able to fire 85 rounds in 60 seconds, which necessitates that some of those seconds have two rounds fired within them. More importantly, it's the fact that you are guaranteed to get two blasts off within the FIRST second, which is what I've been talking about. The alpha damage is incredibly high (working as intended) but the fact that you can then refire inside of a second (because you can get a shot off every 0.7 seconds) is the issue. I want the shotgun to have its high alpha, so I would lower DPS by ROF. I would also increase range, making it useful on my Galmanndo as much as your scout. ON THIS POINT, yes at 20m some pellets will miss. But 7-8 pellets hitting for full damage causes more damage than 12 pellets hitting for reduced damage. If increases your damage projection, even if a few pellets miss. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2146	Posted - 2014.11.10 18:40:00 - [19] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: @ Alena If the Shotgun fired 2 rounds per second, its RoF would be would be 120 RPM (not 85). While it can get off 2 blasts within a one second interval, it most certainly cannot get off 4 blasts within 2 a second interval. Here's why ... Each blast is followed by a lengthy recovery period. A two blast sequence includes only one recovery period. A three blast sequence includes two, and a four blast sequence includes three. Your argument applies only when describing a 2HK (blast+recovery+blast) scenario, but we must account for the increase in number of recovery periods when estimated TTK for 3HK+ engagements (i.e. Sentinels). @ Aeon Shotgun Proficiency was changed from + RoF to + Shield Efficacy. OMG. This circular math discussion is driving me crazy. I barely care about this change and I still just can't take it. It just shouldn't be that hard to understand: No, you do NOT get 2 shots EVERY second. That would, in fact, equate to 120 RPM, not 85. -however- You DO get 2 shots in THE FIRST second. 0 sec: 1 shot 0.7 sec: 2 shots -- one second has elapsed -- 1.4 sec: 3 shots -- two seconds have elapsed -- 2.1 sec: 4 shots 2.8 sec: 5 shots -- 3 seconds have elapsed -- 3.6 sec: 6 shots -- 4 seconds have elapsed -- As you can see, you get 2 shots in one second, but don't get 4 shots in 2 seconds. If you go out further to the entire minute, you drop a few more of those second shots per second (which is a confusing phrase, isn't it?) and lose... wait for it... 120-85 = 35 shots, or a little more than one every other second, as you can see in the timeline above. Edit: So, for an alpha weapon, logically the DPS should be heavily weighted towards the first few seconds. Above you get 2 shots in one second, 2 x 480 = 960dps, or 5 shots in 3 seconds, (5 x 480)/3 = 800dps. This makes the DPS calculation of 900 a little high but not totally inaccurate in terms of the "real world" application of the weapons damage. Only if you happen to choose 2 seconds (3x480)/2 = 720, are you not higher than an HMG (you are equal) walks away grumbling ^^This basically. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2146	Posted - 2014.11.11 00:45:00 - [20] - Quote manboar thunder fist wrote: UNTIL heavies are nerfed there is no justification for nerfing shotguns. Landing 4 shots takes roughly the same time as killing a proto suit in a boundless hmg heavy, in fact it's a lot easier for heavy to kill the scout than the scout the heavy. The shotgun is a surprise high damage short range weapon, in most shooters it is a one shot kill and is the most lethal weapon in the close quarters. Any scout with a shotgun is not a threat. Any player with a heavy machine gun is a very very dangerous threat, even militia heavies can kill other players and proto suits in less than the time it takes to kill them. Every match today I find 50% heavies 20% logis 10% assaults 20% scouts. Any one can use an hmg where as using a scout require a whole bunch of skills such as dampening. My basic Amarr heavy with mh82 goes 5.0 kdr regularly, yet even though I consider myself a decent shotgunner I die to even militia heavies if they get their sights on me. Even with such the shotgun is not as effective as other guns because of its niche. You can't run into a room and shotgun everyone because you have low HP, this balances the shotgun. You can go in and kill 10 players with an hmg and that's fine? What about when 10 people are using hmgs. I am sick of heavy spam, all you can do is use remotes or shotgun, and even then it is more costly for you because their basic heavy fits are worthless. The shotgun doesn't need a nerf, it has been around for ages and continues to be a niche weapon that requires skill. The breach shotgun continues to be the most underused weapon in dust, buff it. The hmg needs a nerf first if shotgun gets nerfed, that thing is seriously op and accounts for majority of Isk spent and kills in dust I reckon. For the hundredth time, we are talking about a standard weapon, no proficiency, no damage mods. A creodrone shotgun will kill an AMARR SENTINEL in 3 shots. The most HP possible on a dropsuit goes down in 3 to 4 shots. That's ridiculous. You are taking the best possible sentinel against the worst possible shotgun and saying that this engagement is balanced. Based on this alone, we see the shotgun is OP. My changes will continue to make the shotgun useful, while not being the be-all-end-all for any given engagement. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.

Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2146	Posted - 2014.11.11 07:16:00 - [21] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: For the hundredth time, we are talking about a standard weapon, no proficiency, no damage mods. A creodrone shotgun will kill an AMARR SENTINEL in 3 shots. The most HP possible on a dropsuit goes down in 3 to 4 shots. That's ridiculous. You are taking the best possible sentinel against the worst possible shotgun and saying that this engagement is balanced. Based on this alone, we see the shotgun is OP. My changes will continue to make the shotgun useful, while not being the be-all-end-all for any given engagement. With respect, this ^ is more opinion than science. Here is another opinion: It is absolutely necessary for Shotguns to kill Sentinels quickly. Current mechanics already permit high-HP Heavies too great an opportunity to emerge victorious from perfectly executed "surprise" attacks from behind. If Shotgun vs Heavy TTK were lengthened, Heavies would dominate the majority of these encounters. This is an unacceptable outcome. Furthermore, it is absolutely necessary and appropriate for Shotguns to significantly out-DPS ranged weapons in CQC. Their damage output does and should reflect their severe range limitation. It is completely "fair" that a standard shotgun's DMG/DPS at 0m to 5m is far greater than that of a weapon with 10x to 20x its optimal range. And if the range changes, that reasoning does not work. Shotguns need better damage projection, which allows them to work on multiple frames instead of just one, and less DPS because you cannot balance a weapon around one type of suit. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2151	Posted - 2014.11.12 10:05:00 - [22] - Quote OP being updated with more info and pictures. For the record, the shotgun with a range increase would still be useful at range. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2153	Posted - 2014.11.12 22:56:00 - [23] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Mexxx Dust-Slayer wrote: This is not a nerf we are talking about. Reducing Shotgun RoF is a huge nerf. Even if a range extension worked perfectly, a slower shotgun means increased odds of surviving a shotgun to the back. This proposal reinforces "HP is King" as it (1) rewards those capable of withstanding the first blast by granting them more time to respond and (2) penalizes those who fail to HP tank by increasing the range within which they are OHK'd. What it does is (1) allows multiple suits to effectively use the shotgun. (2) means that a suit has a chance to respond to the threat, which is how it should be. Even if he tries getting farhter away, you now have more range with which to finish him. (3) If anything, the shotgun killing so quickly encourages "HP is king" because stacking hp is the only way to have a chance at survival, and a lower ROF means you can fit less health and not have to worry about being two-shotted in under a second. (4) Means that a shotgun scout will have to spec into shotguns further in order to regain their high DPS and killing power. All the discussion so far is a standard shotgun with no damage mods and no proficiency. I can hop on a brand new character, buy me some aurum shotguns (or for that matter militia ones) and be able to deal 1000 damage within a second. That is too much. You should pay for that, in both ISK and SP. If we were talking a Credron shotgun with 2 damage mods can deal 1000 damage within a second, some of the arguments would hold water. But a standard shotgun has more DPS than several proto weapons. That is ridiculous. These changes fix the issue of the shotgun scout running up on people and nearly insta-blapping them. All this does is mean you have to wait a little longer to get the killing blow, and lowers TTK. Even with 50RPM, the shotgun TTK is still lower (ie:it kills faster) than an equivalent rifle. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2160	Posted - 2014.11.14 01:37:00 - [24] - Quote Bump. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2171	Posted - 2014.11.15 17:39:00 - [25] - Quote Now we can add "able to put 1000 damage before the decloak animation is finished" to the argument. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.