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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 4 post(s)
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 817	Posted - 2014.10.30 18:40:00 - [31] - Quote manboar thunder fist wrote: Flying close to buildings to avoid swarms is begging to be thrown about by their impact into the building leading to certain death I love it when - due to lag - the missiles locally pass under you and then push you in the direction of the swarmer rather than away from it. That always screws with me. That's a consequence of hit detection being server side but knockback being computed locally. It's a good reason not to try your luck swarms by covering behind buildings.
Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game RUST415 618	Posted - 2014.10.30 18:43:00 - [32] - Quote I sure as hell didn't notice any changes to the swarms... I'm thinking the turn speed variable doesn't do what it's supposed to. I think you should just remove the locking feature all-together and make them fire like a small missile launcher, with higher damage and less shots.
Kaeru Nayiri Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 127	Posted - 2014.10.30 18:49:00 - [33] - Quote Derpty Derp wrote: I sure as hell didn't notice any changes to the swarms... I'm thinking the turn speed variable doesn't do what it's supposed to. I think you should just remove the locking feature all-together and make them fire like a small missile launcher, with higher damage and less shots. This existed in the game at one point. It wrecked infantry worse than anything else you can imagine.
XxVEXESxX 35	Posted - 2014.10.30 19:22:00 - [34] - Quote Ads is now getting away from one launcher. Barely. Seen one out run three volleys two times in a row. Must have had 50hp at the end of each engagement. Last volly of swarms couldnt turn to hit and blew up mid air. Wyk swarms locked on to ads from about 90 to 100+ m each time. Now I dont have max skills nor do I know if the pilot does too but its a noticeable change from the hotfix from my perspective. Hope this helps Rattati. PSN: XxVEXESxX Minmatar loyalist MK.0 A/C/L
Darth-Carbonite GIO Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 1215	Posted - 2014.10.30 20:48:00 - [35] - Quote The swarm changes are not noticeable. Afterburning straight up is still a better tactic than actually performing evasive maneuvers, unfortunately. The Rail Incubus, however, has been vastly improved. It is once again viable in PC, and flying with a gunner is no longer suicide. Thanks, Rattati o7 1.9 Fixes This Judge Rhadamanthus is my Hero
Darth-Carbonite GIO Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 1215	Posted - 2014.10.30 20:59:00 - [36] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Personally, I'd rather see a base damage buff and change the Incubus skill to a heat build-up/cooldown bonus. Respectfully disagree. I believe the rail's anti-vehical damage is fine, and handles tanks and dropships effectively. Small rails are also not much of a problem against infantry either, which is good as that is not their role. If you insist on killing infantry with small rails, you need to fit a side-gun, as killing infantry with a front mounted rail is difficult, to say the least. Fitting sid-guns then reduces your maximum tanking ability making you an easier target for infantry swarms. Balance. TLDR: Rails are meant for AV and do not pose much of a threat to infantry. 1.9 Fixes This Judge Rhadamanthus is my Hero
Darth-Carbonite GIO Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 1215	Posted - 2014.10.30 21:02:00 - [37] - Quote Francois Sanchez wrote: About small blasters, I think the main problem is the spread and the range, which are fine on ground vehicles, but on dropships they force you to get really close. You're then extremely exposed to everything, tanks, turrets, grenades and if somebody shows up with a forge gun or a swarm you're basically dead. As they're fine on ground vehicles, maybe it would be cool to change the incubus bonus to spread reduction and extra range for small blasters This is very true. Blasters on ground vehicles are great, and my gunners love them. Put blasters on a dropship though, and you're looking at a lot of frustration. 1.9 Fixes This Judge Rhadamanthus is my Hero

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 9782	Posted - 2014.10.31 00:33:00 - [38] - Quote Darth-Carbonite GIO wrote: The swarm changes are not noticeable. Afterburning straight up is still a better tactic than actually performing evasive maneuvers, unfortunately. The Rail Incubus, however, has been vastly improved. It is once again viable in PC, and flying with a gunner is no longer suicide. Thanks, Rattati o7 Very good to hear. Swarms have two balancing factors, "travel distance" and "max radius from origin", so there are two ways to escape, get out of the max radius, or evade it long enough. By decreasing turn radius, the theory is that if the ads manages to swerve/slalom around, the missile needs to travel a longer distance to keep up and will eventually run out of fuel (exceed max travel distance). "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2092	Posted - 2014.10.31 00:43:00 - [39] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Darth-Carbonite GIO wrote: The swarm changes are not noticeable. Afterburning straight up is still a better tactic than actually performing evasive maneuvers, unfortunately. The Rail Incubus, however, has been vastly improved. It is once again viable in PC, and flying with a gunner is no longer suicide. Thanks, Rattati o7 Very good to hear. Swarms have two balancing factors, "travel distance" and "max radius from origin", so there are two ways to escape, get out of the max radius, or evade it long enough. By decreasing turn radius, the theory is that if the ads manages to swerve/slalom around, the missile needs to travel a longer distance to keep up and will eventually run out of fuel (exceed max travel distance). Hey Rattati... what's your opinion on ADS being able to outmaneuver swarms? Like with good piloting, we can actually get them to miss us completely and they fly off in a straight line? Like they lose their lock? Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 294	Posted - 2014.10.31 01:45:00 - [40] - Quote I'm not a dropship pilot. In fact I ask dropship pilots to educate me on how they fly. But as someone who has a character that uses swarms I will say this. I can pretty much shoot them whenever I want. I have seen some crazy dropship manuevers. Some serious spiral swinging drifting in the air curves of beauty. And my swarms follow them -- which seems odd to me. Seems to me that Swarms should have a VERY limited turning radius. I like the speed on them. I think they should outrun dropships significantly. But they turn way too fast. At the end of one of those amazing sideways flying air skids the missles should be way past the ship and still trying to turn to retarget. I shouldn't be able to fire my volley at the end of the movement -- I should have to wait until the dropship levels off and isn't screaming around a corner like a bat out of hell. This will also limit the scenario where we have multiple swarms from the same person in the air as a skilled swarm user will put up 2 volleys and then wait to see the reaction. Seems to me that would kill ADS' that sit there and try to hover/smash everyone and would allow skilled pilots to escape while still stalling/deterring them.

SponkSponkSponk WarRavens Capital Punishment. 1088	Posted - 2014.10.31 03:09:00 - [41] - Quote If swarmed moved faster, then the turn rate would be more of an issue because overshooting would actually happen. Dust/Eve transfers
manboar thunder fist Dead Man's Game RUST415 187	Posted - 2014.10.31 11:58:00 - [42] - Quote Personally i wouldnt mind a scenario where swarms travel fast, accelerate fast and hit hard, however if a dropship out turns them they have to do a long arc to regain their initial top speed. NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life Delta- bye bye ads, bye bye scr
Lazer Fo Cused Shining Flame Amarr Empire 39	Posted - 2014.10.31 14:38:00 - [43] - Quote 1. I can now fire 10 shots with the Incubus but i overheat on the 10th shot 2. I feel 10shots is enough to bother an enemy vehicle but not kill it, rep madrugars are a problem but even if i miss 1 shot then it goes downhill along with my ADS 3. The ADS skill is still very poor for 2.4mil SP and is not worth the time to gather such a large amount of SP 4. Missiles are better on the Incubus than the Python due to differences in the ship 5. Swarms still do not render so tuning the turning radius is a mute point when i cannot see the missiles to begin with, if they do render i still see them go around corners in most cases
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 817	Posted - 2014.10.31 15:14:00 - [44] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Have you experienced a change in Swarm efficiency, now that we nerfed their turn radius by another 10%? Do you have any information as to how the "maximum swarm turn angle" should be interpreted? Earlier I was trying to check whether the value you modified could be interpreted as "swarm missile turn angle per second", so I excel'ed out the approach of a swarm missile on a DS that is closing in on the swarmer (head on) at 50 m/s at an altitude of 75 meters (here's a a graph). Turns out in the given scenario the missile would've been trying to turn at over 90-¦/s at one point during the ascend. On the other hand I've never seen a swarm missile have trouble hitting a dropship neither before hotfix delta nor after it. I have two explanations for this: - The "maximum swarm turn angle" is a different parameter entirely. - DS can out-maneuver swarm missiles, but in scenarios where that is effective (e.g. running at the swarmer) the missile can afterwards outpace the DS once it's heading in the right direction. Pilots can effectively buy themselves a second or two of time before impact by making the missile go wide, but that doesn't help unless those 1 or 2 seconds make the missile run out of time or distance. I'll try to make some hands-on observations if I get a chance to go online today.
Kaeru Nayiri Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 129	Posted - 2014.10.31 16:48:00 - [45] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Darth-Carbonite GIO wrote: The swarm changes are not noticeable. Afterburning straight up is still a better tactic than actually performing evasive maneuvers, unfortunately. The Rail Incubus, however, has been vastly improved. It is once again viable in PC, and flying with a gunner is no longer suicide. Thanks, Rattati o7 Very good to hear. Swarms have two balancing factors, "travel distance" and "max radius from origin", so there are two ways to escape, get out of the max radius, or evade it long enough. By decreasing turn radius, the theory is that if the ads manages to swerve/slalom around, the missile needs to travel a longer distance to keep up and will eventually run out of fuel (exceed max travel distance). Rattati, during one of the balance passes you mentioned that the max distance of the swarms was from the launch location and not travel distance. Can you confirm that the swarms can "run out of fuel" before reaching the end of their life timer by going in circles? I was under the impression that after they launched, you had to get 400m away from the origin to lose them, and making them circle around within that 400m would just lead to their life ticker counting to 0. Please confirm?
Kaeru Nayiri Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 129	Posted - 2014.10.31 16:52:00 - [46] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: [...] Swarms have two balancing factors, "travel distance" and "max radius from origin", so there are two ways to escape, get out of the max radius, or evade it long enough. By decreasing turn radius, the theory is that if the ads manages to swerve/slalom around, the missile needs to travel a longer distance to keep up and will eventually run out of fuel (exceed max travel distance). This also needs a bit of clarification, most of us believed that the max turn radius meant how wide the turns had to be for the swarm missile to change direction. If I am understanding you correctly on this, after the inital launch, they CAN'T turn more than 70 degrees in any direction ?
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 75	Posted - 2014.10.31 16:58:00 - [47] - Quote As far as I know, based on the patchnotes in the Google Docs spreadsheet, the value for the swarm angles was always given as "Max Turn Angle", with no mention of turn radius. As such, I would contend that yes, you are indeed understanding Rattati correctly in that swarm missiles are not capable of making a turn that is greater than 70 degrees in any one direction. Ideally, that would be "at all", but if it's only at initial launch then it's still a good start. Buff Logis \| Nerf Goldfish
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 818	Posted - 2014.10.31 19:04:00 - [48] - Quote Stefan Stahl wrote: I'll try to make some hands-on observations if I get a chance to go online today. Apparently there are less pilots about when I'm using a SL than when I'm using a DS... Anyway, this looked like a nice problem and I'm on my day off, so I pulled matlab on this. Under the assumption that we're talking about the "Swarm Launcher missile maximum turning angle per second" I wanted to compare how much of an advantage we get by turning this from 90-¦/s to 70-¦/s. I have a similar concept in on e of my projects so I wanted to look into it. As the scenario I chose to look - again - at a DS that is going at full speed (50 m/s) towards a Swarmer at a constant height of 75 m. As soon as within range the Swarmer launches a single volley at the DS. The missiles then attempt to home in on the DS as it passes over the position where they were launched. Missile acceleration and maximum turning angle per second are both considered. Here's an updated graphic, now at a simulation speed of 10 ticks per second. The dropship starts from the right (red line), the Missile starts from the center (blue line). Regardless of maximum turning angle per second the missile soon catches up to the DS and hits it. Reducing the maximum turning per second from 90 to 70-¦/s buys the DS pilot 0.7 s of time. I'm not going to tweak this until I don't get any hits anymore because the DS isn't being evasive in this example. If anyone can show me what an evasive maneuver looks like for a DS and provide descriptive numbers I can incorporate this. The math I used is 3d, so anything goes. P.S.: Don't forget that we might be talking about a different variable entirely. This is mostly for my amusement. Though it would explain why we haven't seen much of a difference in the Swarm's ability to hit dropships.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 880	Posted - 2014.10.31 19:46:00 - [49] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: By decreasing turn radius, the theory is that if the ads manages to swerve/slalom around, the missile needs to travel a longer distance to keep up and will eventually run out of fuel (exceed max travel distance). The dropship is incapable of making significant enough swerves in a timely fashion: by turning, you're losing forward momentum, giving the swarm time to catch up. And even when you're using your afterburner to full effect, that loss of distance is, somewhat literally, fatal. I think that increasing the time travelled between turns/reducing the turn radius further would be what's needed. I hate to say it again, but it would be useful for you to experience this firsthand. I'm not especially good at putting my piloting experience in to words, though Stefan seems to be on to something. @Stefan: I think one manoeuvre that pilots would try would be to flip the ship to being perpendicular to their line of travel while letting go of the thrust (to prevent it being a curve) and then hitting thrust under an afterburner to get as radical a course change as possible. Not sure if that's clear enough for you... Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 820	Posted - 2014.10.31 21:02:00 - [50] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: @Stefan: I think one manoeuvre that pilots would try would be to flip the ship to being perpendicular to their line of travel while letting go of the thrust (to prevent it being a curve) and then hitting thrust under an afterburner to get as radical a course change as possible. Not sure if that's clear enough for you... Do you have any idea how long an afterburning ADS takes to reach full speed? Even if it loses height while at it. If I know that I can tell you whether that maneuver is viable.

Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 880	Posted - 2014.11.01 02:26:00 - [51] - Quote Stefan Stahl wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: @Stefan: I think one manoeuvre that pilots would try would be to flip the ship to being perpendicular to their line of travel while letting go of the thrust (to prevent it being a curve) and then hitting thrust under an afterburner to get as radical a course change as possible. Not sure if that's clear enough for you... Do you have any idea how long an afterburning ADS takes to reach full speed? Even if it loses height while at it. If I know that I can tell you whether that maneuver is viable. Um, not sure. I'd estimate 1.5s to change direction, but that is pulled straight out of my butt...I don't think much height is lost though. Would yo be able to chart several acceleration times? 1s, 2s and 3s? Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 301	Posted - 2014.11.01 05:51:00 - [52] - Quote Kaeru Nayiri wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Darth-Carbonite GIO wrote: The swarm changes are not noticeable. Afterburning straight up is still a better tactic than actually performing evasive maneuvers, unfortunately. The Rail Incubus, however, has been vastly improved. It is once again viable in PC, and flying with a gunner is no longer suicide. Thanks, Rattati o7 Very good to hear. Swarms have two balancing factors, "travel distance" and "max radius from origin", so there are two ways to escape, get out of the max radius, or evade it long enough. By decreasing turn radius, the theory is that if the ads manages to swerve/slalom around, the missile needs to travel a longer distance to keep up and will eventually run out of fuel (exceed max travel distance). Rattati, during one of the balance passes you mentioned that the max distance of the swarms was from the launch location and not travel distance. Can you confirm that the swarms can "run out of fuel" before reaching the end of their life timer by going in circles? I was under the impression that after they launched, you had to get 400m away from the origin to lose them, and making them circle around within that 400m would just lead to their life ticker counting to 0. Please confirm? It looks like both. He said that they are limited by travel distance (how many meters they travel) AND radius. So say a dropship flies in a strait line away from the swarm and has enough of a headstart to stay ahead of the missles. When said DS hits max radius the missles disappear. OR say a DS pilot with excellent skills circles at pretty much the same distance from the swarm launcher using his mad awesome dodge skills to keep making the missles miss. After said missles have travelled x distance (in attempting to hit the DS, missing, and reorienting) then they go poof even if the DS is just as close (or closer) to the swarmer as it always was. Hence a lower turn radius on the missles allow DS to avoid missles much like a fighter jet would in real life.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 285	Posted - 2014.11.01 08:47:00 - [53] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: Hence a lower turn radius on the missles allow DS to avoid missles much like a fighter jet would in real life. ^^ Not a good analogy; Fighters deploy heat and electronic countermeasures to confuse missile systems, and do not rely on turning speed alone. Back to Dust though In order to out turn a missile you have to pull off manuevers tighter than 70 degrees. "Skill" here is a moot point, getting a dropship to change momentum (very different from fliping the nose around) at turns tighter than that causes one to lose speed (pretty mcuh stop dead in its tracks, thats what i use when i want to stop not out turn a missile) and boom missile hits. Tight turns are at low speeds, yet this only applies to the dropship and not the missile chasing it. Missiles make 70-¦ turns at maximums speed, whereas i can barley manage to keep top speed up at turns under 45-¦ Currently, missiles move much faster than a dropship (especially vs the incubus with the 12% speed penalty for 120Mmm complex plates, and turns tighter than one. The countermeasure for pilots vs swarms is to get out of lock on range before the swarmer gets off volley either 3 or 4, missiles in the air will consisntently nail you; TL;DR No matter how hard you turn, you will never lose a lock, no matter where you choose to fly, the missile will get there before you do. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 489	Posted - 2014.11.01 09:49:00 - [54] - Quote Rattati honestly disaible auto recentering of the camera on the ADS. The main issue every pilot has is that when you move your camera down a little bit to get your reticule onto a enemy it just bumbs back to its starting position and it does that every damn time. Accurate firing is almost impossible with that mechanic so i would say you implement a option on dropship controlls to turn off auto centering. It serves no purpose except to annoy the living hell out of the pilots. Bright is the opposite of dark! Who would have thought of that?!
manboar thunder fist Dead Man's Game RUST415 191	Posted - 2014.11.01 12:54:00 - [55] - Quote Yesterday I had a swarm chasing me, I was down to 900 armour and had a head start so I thought... Let's test out rattatis Theory.... So I was flying backwards away from this swarm and I did a loop the loop... And the swarms completely ignored my loop and hit me where I ended up in my loop..... This is the problem... They aren't behaving as heat seeking missiles at times but as some sort of psychic prediction devices that work out where you're going to go after your manouver... It's actually quite stupid trying to pull off manouvers to outrun them because their top speed feels much higher than the dropships when they are coming at you, able to catch up quickly and easily. NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life Delta- bye bye ads, bye bye scr
manboar thunder fist Dead Man's Game RUST415 191	Posted - 2014.11.01 12:56:00 - [56] - Quote On this note however I'm willing to spend up to 10 pythons trying out various manouvers to outrun swarms... Please let me know if you have any suggestions or ideas for potential good ones. NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life Delta- bye bye ads, bye bye scr
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 880	Posted - 2014.11.01 17:43:00 - [57] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: Rattati honestly disaible auto recentering of the camera on the ADS. It serves no purpose except to annoy the living hell out of the pilots. This. A thousand ***** times this. I cannot count how many times I've missed shots because of this mechanic, and sometimes it is incredibly important (duelling AV, for example) and it renders long range bombardment essentially impossible. manboar thunder fist wrote:** On this note however I'm willing to spend up to 10 pythons trying out various manouvers to outrun swarms... Please let me know if you have any suggestions or ideas for potential good ones. Here's a manoeuvre: 1. Get hit by volley #1 2. Run out of lock-on range, getting hit by volleys #2 and #3 3. Land 4. Recall 5. ??? 6. Profit! Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
manboar thunder fist Dead Man's Game RUST415 193	Posted - 2014.11.01 19:19:00 - [58] - Quote What is the point of redline rail turrets with 12000 HP with blaster turrets covering them.... On the line harvest/tower map they are constantly manned by noobs who make life hell for dropships.... From the comfort of their own redline..: they run forge gun heavies so I can't even fly over and shoot them off! Remove them or move the turrets! NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life Delta- bye bye ads, bye bye scr
medomai grey WarRavens Capital Punishment. 1076	Posted - 2014.11.01 21:58:00 - [59] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: If swarmed moved faster, then the turn rate would be more of an issue because overshooting would actually happen. In real world physics, yes. In gaming world physics defined by the programmer, no. How to balance cloaks.
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 1254	Posted - 2014.11.01 23:49:00 - [60] - Quote Kaeru Nayiri wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Darth-Carbonite GIO wrote: The swarm changes are not noticeable. Afterburning straight up is still a better tactic than actually performing evasive maneuvers, unfortunately. The Rail Incubus, however, has been vastly improved. It is once again viable in PC, and flying with a gunner is no longer suicide. Thanks, Rattati o7 Very good to hear. Swarms have two balancing factors, "travel distance" and "max radius from origin", so there are two ways to escape, get out of the max radius, or evade it long enough. By decreasing turn radius, the theory is that if the ads manages to swerve/slalom around, the missile needs to travel a longer distance to keep up and will eventually run out of fuel (exceed max travel distance). Rattati, during one of the balance passes you mentioned that the max distance of the swarms was from the launch location and not travel distance. Can you confirm that the swarms can "run out of fuel" before reaching the end of their life timer by going in circles? I was under the impression that after they launched, you had to get 400m away from the origin to lose them, and making them circle around within that 400m would just lead to their life ticker counting to 0. Please confirm? Whether you measure by time or distance it is the same. The swsrms travel distance/time is a constant. Meaning the swarms go 400 meters regardless of flight path and then expire Because, that's why.



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