How will the squad be able to see enemies?

Active scanners.

Scouts were never intended to "scout" via shared passives. They didn't even come in to play until about a year ago, but no one notice because of Active Scanner spam. Now it has shifted too far in the other direction.

How will they allow all roles to slay on a balanced playing field?

By encouraging medium frames from playing the EWAR game with Active Scanners, Dampeners and Range Enhancers. By removing the incredible advantage heavies have of playing their role, and seeing medium frames moving to attack them, without having to make any sacrifice whatsoever..

What has effectively happened is that they removed shared scanning from cloaked scouts by removing their ability to scan anything whatsoever, outside 4 meters or so. Not only does this nerf slaying ability, which was too imbalanced, but it ALSO nerfs defensive abilities, which were never the problem to begin with. Scouts will more likely start tanking more, giving up on the cloak nearly entirely, and further eroding the Logi role as a result.

This could be the most ignorant post Ive seen. Scouts are not overpowered from any standpoint other than that they provide shared passives, which makes them commonly used. They are also not underpowered.

In PC's, scouts are used for passives, and heavies for slaying. Taking away shared passives means assaults and scouts and heavies and commandos all slaying together because they are on a balanced playing field.

Ignorant means lacking knowledge on the subject. I understand the subject. The problem (that you have) is that I don't agree with your reasoning.

Your are proposing a change that 'literally' is a buff to scouts as the problem with them now is not that they can see things -- but that they can see things and kill things (pretty much anything) with nigh impunity. If the scout couldn't slay everything then the ability to see things and communicate it to the rest of the team wouldn't be much of a problem (in my opinion.) The ability to slay everything is based on factors such as cloak, difficulty/impossibility of detection, and actual strait up front line combat efficacy due to hitbox/lag/brokenhitdetection.

You are attempting to further solidify the 'slayer scout' role which CCP is actively trying to reverse. That is my opinion. You may call it stupid because you don't agree (and if you don't want to look stupid yourself providing a rationale for your disagreement works wonders) but you can't call it ignorant.

Fair enough.

My claim that your post is ignorant is redacted.

However, I wholeheartedly disagree that a scout being able to slay is a problem.

Is slaying as a Sentinel a problem? No.

Is slaying as a Commando a problem? No.

Why should the scout be different?

Where the Heavy has high HP and DPS to allow it to slay, the scout relies on eWAR and speed to allow it to slay.

Thats balance right there, and there is absolutely no problem with it whatsoever.

The problem arises when the scout can slay equally as well as other classes (which is fine on its own), AND can provide his primary slaying "strength" to the rest of his squad. Im referring to eWAR detection. In the hands of anything but a low HP scout, having that good of scans is unbalanced. Theres no way around that, IMHO.

That's an entirely fair argument. You make a fair argument about how scouts should also be able to kill. Notice I did not name NK or Shotties as problems. And as I stated before -- I don't mind the Ewar.

As many other posters have suggested, the binary nature of Ewar may be the issue. As for me I don't have a problem with it. Honestly I think the issue is with the survivability of the scout suit. All that Ewar is fine if the scout was a glass cannon. Ie. died easily. And honestly -- scout fits with low HP don't die as fast as a logi with the same HP. It's a speed/lag/hitbox issue. I think if scouts were more easily killed in a strait up fight the only problem would be the people who complain because they didn't maintain situational awareness.

I mentioned once before in another thread that I look over my shoulder a LOT now. And I sometimes catch scouts trying to sneak up on me. In that situation I should kill them. But so many times they speed tank the damage just strafing back and forth in a one meter area and none of my bullets hit. I find THAT the problem behind slayer scouts.

When a scout completely sneaks up on me I am entirely ok with it. That's my fault.

So essentially I would argue that the scout is able to slay more effectively than other classes.

The argument about scouts being able to share scans is interesting. But as I stated earlier, I consider that a buff to the other classes. Scouts themselves aren't any more or less effective at slaying because they help their team on scans. And that's the rub that people have had with scouts. They are arguably more effective than other classes at killing/living -- and while you make a fair point about shared scans -- it doesn't really address the problem in my humble opinion.

Also, to be fair, I am not a scout. Never have been. So I can only speak from the perspective of an assault.

I agree 100% that binary eWAR is a problem.

To counter this, I made a suggestion to buff cloaks and active scanners, and nerf passive scans, but in a way that scouts still have to dampen or they do get detected. Ill link it here in a few when I find it.

I also agree that strafing is a problem, but with 1.9, there are supposed hit detection fixes that would help quite a bit with it.

However, strafing isn't something that only a scout abuses. TBH I find a strafing assault with twice the HP of a scout that strafes at 90% of the scouts speed to be even harder to take down than a scout. With a SG, one blast and the scout dies. With an assault, it takes anywhere from 2-4, due to hit detection and what not.

However, I believe that if the core mechanics are fixed to a point where hit detection works much better and shared passives are removed, the scout will stop being the number two most important unit in PC, and the heavy number one. Instead, I feel that all classes will be balanced completely, and that there would be absolutely no need for a ridiculous cloak nerf that forces a scout to have worse passive scans than a sentinel.

Everyone strafes and thats whatever, but whats the deal with the absurd strafing? Is this a m/kb thing? Its not just scouts either I've seen dudes in starter fits left right strafe at ridiculous speeds

Why don't we look at the heart of the problem, shared passives?

Removing them would be such an easy solution, it makes me actually somewhat angry that we haven't done it..

Seriously, what reason is there for not doing this?

It really, seriously, balances scouts without making the cloak a useless piece of shit, which it will be next patch.

Also, can the scout role bonus be changed to 5% dampening again? Please and thank you.

The problem with scouts aren't that they are the best slayers (they're worse than Assaults), its not that they are better at using equipment (they're worse than Logis), its not that they're the best at AV (they're worse than Commando's), its definitely not that they're the best at point defense (they're worse than Heavies), its the fact that they are able to make their entire squad better at eWAR than anything.

One scout with 300 HP seeing people 40 meters away with a red chevron isn't a problem. 5 Sentinels with 1500 HP and an HMG seeing everything within 50 meters is.

Ive said it before, and Ill say it again. If you remove shared passives, scouts lose their main role in PC and organized matches. Only the skilled players who can use it will continue to. Without shared passives, the number of scouts in PC will drop to about half of what it currently is, and heavies will, by the same effect, be reduced in number as they will no longer have the eWAR of a 300 HP scout with the offensive capabilities of a Sentinel.

This in turn gives much more breathing room for Assaults to slay.

The cloak nerf does nothing. Scouts will continue to dominate PC solely because they are needed for shared passives. They just simply won't run a cloak, which means that our role bonus is now a complete and utter waste.

Its like the shield regeneration for Gallente and Amarr Assault, back in the day, but worse.

It simply won't be used. Scouts will find out very soon not to run the cloak when they get surprised by a camping HMG heavy hiding 5 meters away killing them as soon as they shiny-shine walk by.

Mark my words. Ive been very accurate about this kind of thing before, and Ill be damned if Im not correct here.

Oh well. My minmitar scout will remain the worst, and my shiny new Min Assault will become the new "OP" as soon as I start using it

This could be the most ignorant post Ive seen. Scouts are not overpowered from any standpoint other than that they provide shared passives, which makes them commonly used. They are also not underpowered.

In PC's, scouts are used for passives, and heavies for slaying. Taking away shared passives means assaults and scouts and heavies and commandos all slaying together because they are on a balanced playing field.

Thread reported for being an insult to the intelligence of anyone who's played pc in the last 6 months.

Ridiculous line of bs is ridiculous.


Please allow me to solve all your problems with the cloak, your passive scan range and hacking:
NOTE *The following is borrowed from the feedback "scouts" provided to the community who have questioned the imbalanced design of scouts and by proxy, cloaking*



-> USE YOUR EYES<-








Sincerely,
Nerf scouts. With no delay.

Coming from Cap Aq, second to only LATINO KILLER CORP in the number of HMG heavies deployed on the field in PC.

Nerf Heavies. Nothing should have enough HP to survive a remote explosive.

If passives were what scouts were used for, you'd see one scout per squad in PC. Instead what you see is entire squads worth of scouts running around in outdoor/open areas, and a mix of heavys/logis/scouts in indoor areas. So why is this the case? Its because in outdoor the speed/stealth of a bunch of scouts makes a scout swarm the best option, and in indoor areas the sentinel health+logi+ scouts running around shotgunning **** and killing links is the best option.

None of this has to do with passives, and all of it has to do with the best way to kill people in each environment.

I dont think Ive ever seen anyone running a scan fit in PC, its always damped up cloak scouts with ~500 hp running around with shotguns or a rifle and REs.

Shared passives should be exactly what scouts are used for, but this is not the case, the reality is scouts are used as slayer fits in PC because they wreck everything unless its a big blob of heavies and logis.

Disagree.

If a heavy with a scout in squad can see all red assaults around him, without any sacrifice, that is insane.

If shared passives are removed, suddenly that heavy has to use his vision and awareness to handle medium frame enemies and can't rely on his scout.

Why should other frames get the benefit of scout SP and fittings sacrifice?

Do we get extra armor just because a heavy in our squad has some?

Do our weapons get a damage increase if someone in our squad has damage mods?

The entire idea behind shared scans is ridiculous.

If you want to share scans, use an active scanner.

Disagree.

If a heavy with a scout in squad can see all red assaults around him, without any sacrifice, that is insane.

If shared passives are removed, suddenly that heavy has to use his vision and awareness to handle medium frame enemies and can't rely on his scout.

Why should other frames get the benefit of scout SP and fittings sacrifice?

Do we get extra armor just because a heavy in our squad has some?

Do our weapons get a damage increase if someone in our squad has damage mods?

The entire idea behind shared scans is ridiculous.

If you want to share scans, use an active scanner.