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Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4919	Posted - 2014.10.17 08:24:00 - [1] - Quote Assaults get naturally countered by entrenched sentinels they try to rush down. Sentinels are geographically countered by Commando's/Assaults taking up elevated positions with mass drivers/rail rifles, as well as scout assassins. Commando's get wrecked by Assaults/Heavies on even terrain. Logi's get wrecked by everyone. Scouts get wrecked by......? And let's not say situational awareness, because it does not exist in a game with a memory leak prone sound engine and poor frame rate. But you know, I'm experimenting with various builds due to boredom so if you have any thoughts on this please let me know.
rithu Freek Coalition Freek Alliance 158	Posted - 2014.10.17 08:38:00 - [2] - Quote Bad scouts get wrecked by heavies. Med scouts get wrecked by pro scouts & pro scouts became pro after skilling into ewars, weapons, and almost all modules. BUT they do get wrecked, by all other pro suits.( People with good gun game & situational awareness) And not to mention a squad full of protos.
LT SHANKS Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 3598	Posted - 2014.10.17 10:04:00 - [3] - Quote Scouts get wrecked by anyone with a Bolt Pistol.
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 12674	Posted - 2014.10.17 10:23:00 - [4] - Quote Dying as a scout means making a mistake. You are always the one who picks the fights, unlike every other unit where they can have scouts attack them out of nowhere, meaning they are on the defensive. With alpha weapons like shotguns and nova knives, it really does come down to making a mistake. Cloaks made avoiding mistakes easier. No amount of situational awareness is going to allow you to detect a cloaked scout in broad daylight (Where the shimmer is barely visible) as you are busy not dying from the HMG around the corner. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
Atiim 13023	Posted - 2014.10.17 11:42:00 - [5] - Quote Sentinels sacrifice speed Logistics sacrifice HP, Speed, and a Sidearm Commandos sacrifice HP, Speed, and Slots Assaults don't have an advantage to warrant a sacrifice What do scouts have? I would say HP but you can easily pass 600 HP without any speed penalties. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Bahirae Serugiusu Vendetta Reactionary Force 179	Posted - 2014.10.17 11:46:00 - [6] - Quote Atiim wrote: Sentinels sacrifice speed Logistics sacrifice HP, Speed, and a Sidearm Commandos sacrifice HP, Speed, and Slots Assaults don't have an advantage to warrant a sacrifice What do scouts have? I would say HP but you can easily pass 600 HP without any speed penalties. You pretty much summed up assaults right there.
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 3894	Posted - 2014.10.17 12:04:00 - [7] - Quote Atiim wrote: What do scouts have? The best passive scans, fastest walk/sprint/strafe speeds, fastest stamina regen, light weapon, sidearm, and grenade, two equipment slots, slot layouts within 1 slot of an assault dropsuit, smallest hitboxes, and bonuses to fitting cloaking devices. For all that, they somehow manage to suffer through lower initial eHP My advice to you, playa...
Henrietta Unknown Nox Lupos 387	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:40:00 - [8] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Dying as a scout means making a mistake. You are always the one who picks the fights, unlike every other unit where they can have scouts attack them out of nowhere, meaning they are on the defensive. With alpha weapons like shotguns and nova knives, it really does come down to making a mistake. Cloaks made avoiding mistakes easier. And that's why no one really tries to scout without it. There needs to be a considerable penalty to be cloaked. It should count towards infiltration efforts, not slaying. So with the proposed firing delay in 1.9, I would also like for the scout-cloak bonuses to be tuned down. You'd have to sacrifice your tank or slayer-relevant proto modules to fit a cloak, and vice versa. Encourage some diversity. It's hard, but not impossible to run without the cloak. All that I really worry about are rail rifles and shotgun-cloak-scouts. Give the Magsex some love.
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 3898	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:42:00 - [9] - Quote Henrietta Unknown wrote: There needs to be a considerable penalty to be cloaked. I believe it was Rattati that said he liked the idea of being cloaked dropping your scan radius to 0m. That would be a new penalty for cloaking. Don't ask me what thread it was in, but it was Features and Ideas. My advice to you, playa...

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 8800	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:54:00 - [10] - Quote it was in the Barbershop, and something like that is happening. Not zero, but cloaked scouts will not be able to know where everyone is in a 30m radius and pick the most vulnerable target or provide passive scans for their squad while cloaked. Cloak has been too risk-free since 1.8 and you all know how we feel about risk free playstyles. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 3899	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:00:00 - [11] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Cloak has been too risk-free since 1.8 and you all know how we feel about risk free playstyles. Now, if we could just handle scouts having incredible passive scans, movement speed, and great tanks. My advice to you, playa...
Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion 54	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:07:00 - [12] - Quote Daily reminder that cloak/damps has no mechanics based counter in this game. The only counter is a completely unrealistic amount of 24/7 360x360 degree situational awareness devoted entirely to finding the scout which is magically maintained while dealing with objectives and the rest of the enemy team. On top of that the scout will probably have full wallhack vision on you and most of your teamates who arent exploiting the same broken mechanic. Totally reasonable.
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Kyoudai Furinkazan 1283	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:12:00 - [13] - Quote One at a time , too many changes never work out too well and you don't want to handicap scout too much or else we will be where we first started and the buffing process will start again and might make matters worst . Little changes first to the role to even out those who use the strengths as an exploit , we don't want to punish those who have been steady at playing the role and who don't use the role to pad their kill ratio . They should fashion them similar to Logistic , where now you really can't be too much a " slayer logi " unless you sacrifice a lot and still your not going to be too effective for too long . Those who truly play the role like it's meant to be true scouts , some roles just don't have a consequential purpose . CCP is working on that even obviously . Delta should come with a SP or infantry SP refund so that a campaign for one is not needed .
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1179	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:14:00 - [14] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: it was in the Barbershop, and something like that is happening. Not zero, but cloaked scouts will not be able to know where everyone is in a 30m radius and pick the most vulnerable target or provide passive scans for their squad while cloaked. Cloak has been too risk-free since 1.8 and you all know how we feel about risk free playstyles. 30m is still a LOT of ground. Actually 30 meters is well over half of the volume than a CreoDron Flux Active Scanner. Just in case that sound wrong, here is my method: volume of a sphere is easy; (4/3)Pir^3 volume of the wedge; integral from 0 to PI of [0.5Pir^2) Fixing EWAR
Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion 54	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:17:00 - [15] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: it was in the Barbershop, and something like that is happening. Not zero, but cloaked scouts will not be able to know where everyone is in a 30m radius and pick the most vulnerable target or provide passive scans for their squad while cloaked. Cloak has been too risk-free since 1.8 and you all know how we feel about risk free playstyles. 30m is still a LOT of ground. Actually 30 meters is well over half of the volume than a CreoDron Flux Active Scanner. Just in case that sound wrong, here is my method: volume of a sphere is easy; (4/3)Pir^3 volume of the wedge; integral from 0 to PI of [0.5Pir^2) He said they will NOT be able to see everyone in a 30 meter radius.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4579	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:19:00 - [16] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Assaults get naturally countered by entrenched sentinels they try to rush down. Sentinels are geographically countered by Commando's/Assaults taking up elevated positions with mass drivers/rail rifles, as well as scout assassins. Commando's get wrecked by Assaults/Heavies on even terrain. Logi's get wrecked by everyone. Scouts get wrecked by......? And let's not say situational awareness, because it does not exist in a game with a memory leak prone sound engine and poor frame rate. It seems to me that the only possible counter is a higher level of skill than the scout himself possesses in terms of gun game. Which is interesting really, as that is not a natural pre-requisite for any other type of counter in the game, instead a reinforcer of the mandate. But you know, I'm experimenting with various builds due to boredom so if you have any thoughts on this please let me know. Scout is countered by anyone who sees them from more than 15m away. (And by "see" I mean visually.) Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 2183	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:22:00 - [17] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Cloak has been too risk-free since 1.8 and you all know how we feel about risk free playstyles. Now, if we could just handle scouts having incredible passive scans, movement speed, and great tanks. How about the sprint strafing while firing and jumping over your head? I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4579	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:23:00 - [18] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Dying as a scout means making a mistake. You are always the one who picks the fights, unlike every other unit where they can have scouts attack them out of nowhere, meaning they are on the defensive. With alpha weapons like shotguns and nova knives, it really does come down to making a mistake. Cloaks made avoiding mistakes easier. No amount of situational awareness is going to allow you to detect a cloaked scout in broad daylight (Where the shimmer is barely visible) as you are busy not dying from the HMG around the corner. I manage to kill a lot more Cloaked Scouts than uncloaked Scouts. Intense sunlight is not all that common in my experience, but it could be because as a Sentinel I prefer to remain indoors. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1180	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:26:00 - [19] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: it was in the Barbershop, and something like that is happening. Not zero, but cloaked scouts will not be able to know where everyone is in a 30m radius and pick the most vulnerable target or provide passive scans for their squad while cloaked. Cloak has been too risk-free since 1.8 and you all know how we feel about risk free playstyles. Going to THE scout thread to talk askt nerfing scouts is like going to the extremely wealthy to ask about tax codes, you are not going to get an honest assessment. Math doesn't lie, you have the metrics, you can easily find out many correlations through math. Going to the babershop to talk about balancing scouts is like going the Spk4thaDead to ask about balancing tanks. Fixing EWAR
Joel II X Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3857	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:31:00 - [20] - Quote In my scout suit, I tend to get rekt by anyone that has their cross hairs on me and actually had enough gun game to keep aim for 2 seconds. 3 for my Amarr Scout. ... Or anyone with an assault Mass Driver.

Joel II X Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3857	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:39:00 - [21] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: it was in the Barbershop, and something like that is happening. Not zero, but cloaked scouts will not be able to know where everyone is in a 30m radius and pick the most vulnerable target or provide passive scans for their squad while cloaked. Cloak has been too risk-free since 1.8 and you all know how we feel about risk free playstyles. So you're making the cloak even more bad than it is? Basically, by equipping and using the cloak, you'd be a walking pile of uselessness. Will you guys at least buff the duration time a bit? Right now, it can't be used for anything other than penetrate a 30m area.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4579	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:42:00 - [22] - Quote Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: One at a time , too many changes never work out too well and you don't want to handicap scout too much or else we will be where we first started and the buffing process will start again and might make matters worst . Little changes first to the role to even out those who use the strengths as an exploit , we don't want to punish those who have been steady at playing the role and who don't use the role to pad their kill ratio . They should fashion them similar to Logistic , where now you really can't be too much a " slayer logi " unless you sacrifice a lot and still your not going to be too effective for too long . Those who truly play the role like it's meant to be true scouts , some roles just don't have a consequential purpose . CCP is working on that even obviously . You make a good point. However, I think adding a greater movement penalty to Plate Armour (not ferro or reactive) for light frame suits would only effect Scouts that stack a lot of Plate. Combine that with reduced Scan radius while Cloeaked, and I think you have a couple steps in the right direction without effecting the old-school hard core Scouts at all. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1180	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:43:00 - [23] - Quote Joel II X wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: it was in the Barbershop, and something like that is happening. Not zero, but cloaked scouts will not be able to know where everyone is in a 30m radius and pick the most vulnerable target or provide passive scans for their squad while cloaked. Cloak has been too risk-free since 1.8 and you all know how we feel about risk free playstyles. So you're making the cloak even more bad than it is? Basically, by equipping and using the cloak, you'd be a walking pile of uselessness. Will you guys at least buff the duration time a bit? Right now, it can't be used for anything other than penetrate a 30m area. This is sarcasm right? I mean what could be useful about being VERY hard to see (conditionally) and not showing up on any visual tacnets.... along with a stacking free 10% dampener? There is a reason why you even see some people trying to shoe-horn cloaks onto non-scouts, and it isn't because they suck. Fixing EWAR
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4579	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:47:00 - [24] - Quote Joel II X wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: it was in the Barbershop, and something like that is happening. Not zero, but cloaked scouts will not be able to know where everyone is in a 30m radius and pick the most vulnerable target or provide passive scans for their squad while cloaked. Cloak has been too risk-free since 1.8 and you all know how we feel about risk free playstyles. So you're making the cloak even more bad than it is? Basically, by equipping and using the cloak, you'd be a walking pile of uselessness. Will you guys at least buff the duration time a bit? Right now, it can't be used for anything other than penetrate a 30m area. I think there should be a penetration variant that lasts much longer, but has a longer delay before you can fire. Would be used for crossing open areas and getting behind enemy lines, rather than as a combat aid. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 2183	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:47:00 - [25] - Quote And everything goes down the toilet when you have scouts sprinting back and forth, while shooting at you. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4580	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:51:00 - [26] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: it was in the Barbershop, and something like that is happening. Not zero, but cloaked scouts will not be able to know where everyone is in a 30m radius and pick the most vulnerable target or provide passive scans for their squad while cloaked. Cloak has been too risk-free since 1.8 and you all know how we feel about risk free playstyles. Going to THE scout thread to talk about nerfing scouts is like going to the extremely wealthy to ask about tax codes, you are not going to get an honest assessment. The amount of group-think in that thread is scary. Math doesn't lie, you have the metrics, you can easily find out many correlations through math. Ask the ADS community what happens when Rattati comes to you to discuss nerfing your role and you don't give objective well thought out feedback. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Cody Sietz Evzones Public.Disorder. 4067	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:56:00 - [27] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: One at a time , too many changes never work out too well and you don't want to handicap scout too much or else we will be where we first started and the buffing process will start again and might make matters worst . Little changes first to the role to even out those who use the strengths as an exploit , we don't want to punish those who have been steady at playing the role and who don't use the role to pad their kill ratio . They should fashion them similar to Logistic , where now you really can't be too much a " slayer logi " unless you sacrifice a lot and still your not going to be too effective for too long . Those who truly play the role like it's meant to be true scouts , some roles just don't have a consequential purpose . CCP is working on that even obviously . You make a good point. However, I think adding a greater movement penalty to Plate Armour (not ferro or reactive) for light frame suits would only effect Scouts that stack a lot of Plate. Combine that with reduced Scan radius while Cloeaked, and I think you have a couple steps in the right direction without effecting the old-school hard core Scouts at all. Then you'd probably just have scouts stacking FS plates. They aren't that hard to fit and provide nearly as much hp as the basic plate. I still say the way to go is to apply bonuses to the modules instead of the suit itself. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1180	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:57:00 - [28] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: it was in the Barbershop, and something like that is happening. Not zero, but cloaked scouts will not be able to know where everyone is in a 30m radius and pick the most vulnerable target or provide passive scans for their squad while cloaked. Cloak has been too risk-free since 1.8 and you all know how we feel about risk free playstyles. Going to THE scout thread to talk about nerfing scouts is like going to the extremely wealthy to ask about tax codes, you are not going to get an honest assessment. The amount of group-think in that thread is scary. Math doesn't lie, you have the metrics, you can easily find out many correlations through math. Ask the ADS community what happens when Rattati comes to you to discuss nerfing your role and you don't give objective well thought out feedback. IDK, it just looks like that is the only place where there is developer discussion about scouts, and that discussion is occuring with 4-5 people who all have a heavy scout bias. Looking at general discussion, there are a LOT of people who are really unhappy with scouts, yet they are being fully left out of the discussion. Seems wrong to me. Fixing EWAR
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Kyoudai Furinkazan 1283	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:58:00 - [29] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: However, I think adding a greater movement penalty to Plate Armour (not ferro or reactive) for light frame suits would only effect Scouts that stack a lot of Plate. Combine that with reduced Scan radius while Cloaked, and I think you have a couple steps in the right direction without effecting the old-school hard core Scouts at all. They should listen to you Fox and just implement these two measures to begin with and they just might realize , that's all they needed to do . Don't mess with CPU / PG or take away a light weapon slot or EQ slot either . I always thought along the lines of bigger penalty for fitting plate armor on light frame suits , so I agree on that premise . These two fixes should be enough to begin with and might prove to be all that was needed . Delta should come with a SP or infantry SP refund so that a campaign for one is not needed .
MrBlobz G I A N T 16	Posted - 2014.10.17 16:00:00 - [30] - Quote LT SHANKS wrote: Scouts get wrecked by anyone with a Bolt Pistol. This is the correct answer. (>'o')> G I A N T <('o'<) `#RollinGold`

Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 1166	Posted - 2014.10.17 16:02:00 - [31] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Assaults get naturally countered by entrenched sentinels they try to rush down. Sentinels are geographically countered by Commando's/Assaults taking up elevated positions with mass drivers/rail rifles, as well as scout assassins. Commando's get wrecked by Assaults/Heavies on even terrain. Logi's get wrecked by everyone. Scouts get wrecked by......? And let's not say situational awareness, because it does not exist in a game with a memory leak prone sound engine and poor frame rate. It seems to me that the only possible counter is a higher level of skill than the scout himself possesses in terms of gun game. Which is interesting really, as that is not a natural pre-requisite for any other type of counter in the game, instead a reinforcer of the mandate. But you know, I'm experimenting with various builds due to boredom so if you have any thoughts on this please let me know. scouts dont get wrecked.. they wreck every one.. and need a nerf [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 1 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]]
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Kyoudai Furinkazan 1283	Posted - 2014.10.17 16:09:00 - [32] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: IDK, it just looks like that is the only place where there is developer discussion about scouts, and that discussion is occuring with 4-5 people who all have a heavy scout bias. Looking at general discussion, there are a LOT of people who are really unhappy with scouts, yet they are being fully left out of the discussion. Seems wrong to me. I'm on record saying that scouts should handle the discussion on and about changes needed to their role , too many times , too many players who just DO NOT play a particular role , have too much weight in the direction that the role that they DO NOT PLAY goes in , sometimes in their comments they even admit that they don't play the role and to see that and still count these same people as knowledgeable is just foolish . This isn't the end all to be all , I think that someone was just concerned and posed a opinion and question for the community to muse over . Doesn't mean I agree and doesn't make it right but it could bring scouts to the table for discussion and that in it's self is a good thing . I say myself that I rarely use scouts and I use them to anti-vehicle for the most part , I have my core to 4 and cal scout to three and just don't use them . I know that as much as I hate seeing 8 out of the 16 players in a match using scouts , I still can not be bias to them because that's just not productive to the over all health of the game . Also I use HAV's and snipe , also logi and heavy so I know what bias does to a role , it kills it and it just seems like CCP listens to those with bias for the most part . We can turn this discussion in the direction where it could benefit the efforts in finding a common ground . Delta should come with a SP or infantry SP refund so that a campaign for one is not needed .
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Kyoudai Furinkazan 1283	Posted - 2014.10.17 16:22:00 - [33] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: I still say the way to go is to apply bonuses to the modules instead of the suit itself. Another great point . This will encourage players to invest in the skills instead of getting a bonus for the suit and bypassing the need for investment . This will tie the player to the role more and encourage the use of mods to enhance the experience . Those who stack armor and run light assault will not have the functionality because they will not be able to use the percentages of bonuses from not having the skills / mods in usage . Couple this with Fox's two suggestions and this is a win - win and will not punish TRUE SCOUTS in the least . These three changes should be all that would be needed . Delta should come with a SP or infantry SP refund so that a campaign for one is not needed .
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1181	Posted - 2014.10.17 16:28:00 - [34] - Quote Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: I still say the way to go is to apply bonuses to the modules instead of the suit itself. Another great point . This will encourage players to invest in the skills instead of getting a bonus for the suit and bypassing the need for investment . This will tie the player to the role more and encourage the use of mods to enhance the experience . Those who stack armor and run light assault will not have the functionality because they will not be able to use the percentages of bonuses from not having the skills / mods in usage . Couple this with Fox's two suggestions and this is a win - win and will not punish TRUE SCOUTS in the least . These three changes should be all that would be needed . I agree but you have to be REALLY careful on how much you bonus a module. Look at scanners, they are bonused at 5% per lvl for a 25% bonus. When a module has sucha large bonus you do one of two things: 1) make the module completely useless on non-bonused suits or 2) Make the module overpowered on bonused suits So proceed with caution. Fixing EWAR
Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion 54	Posted - 2014.10.17 16:29:00 - [35] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Assaults get naturally countered by entrenched sentinels they try to rush down. Sentinels are geographically countered by Commando's/Assaults taking up elevated positions with mass drivers/rail rifles, as well as scout assassins. Commando's get wrecked by Assaults/Heavies on even terrain. Logi's get wrecked by everyone. Scouts get wrecked by......? And let's not say situational awareness, because it does not exist in a game with a memory leak prone sound engine and poor frame rate. It seems to me that the only possible counter is a higher level of skill than the scout himself possesses in terms of gun game. Which is interesting really, as that is not a natural pre-requisite for any other type of counter in the game, instead a reinforcer of the mandate. But you know, I'm experimenting with various builds due to boredom so if you have any thoughts on this please let me know. Scout is countered by anyone who sees them from more than 15m away. (And by "see" I mean visually.) Are you making the mistake of believing all scouts use shotguns?
jerrmy12 kahoalii G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1650	Posted - 2014.10.17 17:09:00 - [36] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: it was in the Barbershop, and something like that is happening. Not zero, but cloaked scouts will not be able to know where everyone is in a 30m radius and pick the most vulnerable target or provide passive scans for their squad while cloaked. Cloak has been too risk-free since 1.8 and you all know how we feel about risk free playstyles. As soon as cloak brightness is fixed on most maps then that can happen. Closed beta vet. Call me TrolLuna or Trollmare Moon, Reference link
Joel II X Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3858	Posted - 2014.10.17 17:14:00 - [37] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Joel II X wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: it was in the Barbershop, and something like that is happening. Not zero, but cloaked scouts will not be able to know where everyone is in a 30m radius and pick the most vulnerable target or provide passive scans for their squad while cloaked. Cloak has been too risk-free since 1.8 and you all know how we feel about risk free playstyles. So you're making the cloak even more bad than it is? Basically, by equipping and using the cloak, you'd be a walking pile of uselessness. Will you guys at least buff the duration time a bit? Right now, it can't be used for anything other than penetrate a 30m area. I think there should be a penetration variant that lasts much longer, but has a longer delay before you can fire. Would be used for crossing open areas and getting behind enemy lines, rather than as a combat aid. I can get behind this. Since it's used for open areas and staying out of combat, I'd say removing the dB bonuses as well would be nice. Allotek Flux Cloak Field
Atiim 13031	Posted - 2014.10.17 17:16:00 - [38] - Quote Joel II X wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Joel II X wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: it was in the Barbershop, and something like that is happening. Not zero, but cloaked scouts will not be able to know where everyone is in a 30m radius and pick the most vulnerable target or provide passive scans for their squad while cloaked. Cloak has been too risk-free since 1.8 and you all know how we feel about risk free playstyles. So you're making the cloak even more bad than it is? Basically, by equipping and using the cloak, you'd be a walking pile of uselessness. Will you guys at least buff the duration time a bit? Right now, it can't be used for anything other than penetrate a 30m area. I think there should be a penetration variant that lasts much longer, but has a longer delay before you can fire. Would be used for crossing open areas and getting behind enemy lines, rather than as a combat aid. I can get behind this. Since it's used for open areas and staying out of combat, I'd say removing the dB bonuses as well would be nice. Allotek Flux Cloak Field Cloak Fields are Caldari, not Gallente. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4584	Posted - 2014.10.17 17:19:00 - [39] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: One at a time , too many changes never work out too well and you don't want to handicap scout too much or else we will be where we first started and the buffing process will start again and might make matters worst . Little changes first to the role to even out those who use the strengths as an exploit , we don't want to punish those who have been steady at playing the role and who don't use the role to pad their kill ratio . They should fashion them similar to Logistic , where now you really can't be too much a " slayer logi " unless you sacrifice a lot and still your not going to be too effective for too long . Those who truly play the role like it's meant to be true scouts , some roles just don't have a consequential purpose . CCP is working on that even obviously . You make a good point. However, I think adding a greater movement penalty to Plate Armour (not ferro or reactive) for light frame suits would only effect Scouts that stack a lot of Plate. Combine that with reduced Scan radius while Cloeaked, and I think you have a couple steps in the right direction without effecting the old-school hard core Scouts at all. Then you'd probably just have scouts stacking FS plates. They aren't that hard to fit and provide nearly as much hp as the basic plate. I still say the way to go is to apply bonuses to the modules instead of the suit itself. Complex Armor Plate = 135 HP Complex Ferroscale Plates = 75HP Stacking Ferroscale Plates will give them survivability, but not enough to out tank an equally skilled Assault suit a head to head fight. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4584	Posted - 2014.10.17 17:24:00 - [40] - Quote Atiim wrote: Joel II X wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: I think there should be a penetration variant that lasts much longer, but has a longer delay before you can fire. Would be used for crossing open areas and getting behind enemy lines, rather than as a combat aid. I can get behind this. Since it's used for open areas and staying out of combat, I'd say removing the dB bonuses as well would be nice. Allotek Flux Cloak Field Cloak Fields are Caldari, not Gallente. Maybe the Gallente Cloaks work differently from the Caldari ones. I can understand each race producing their own type of weapons, but it does not make sense to me that essential equipment would not be produced by different races. What would happen if the Amarr banned the sale of Drop Uplinks, and kept them exclusively for the use of their own military? Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.

Joel II X Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3859	Posted - 2014.10.17 17:27:00 - [41] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Joel II X wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: it was in the Barbershop, and something like that is happening. Not zero, but cloaked scouts will not be able to know where everyone is in a 30m radius and pick the most vulnerable target or provide passive scans for their squad while cloaked. Cloak has been too risk-free since 1.8 and you all know how we feel about risk free playstyles. So you're making the cloak even more bad than it is? Basically, by equipping and using the cloak, you'd be a walking pile of uselessness. Will you guys at least buff the duration time a bit? Right now, it can't be used for anything other than penetrate a 30m area. This is sarcasm right? I mean what could be useful about being VERY hard to see (conditionally) and not showing up on any visual tacnets.... along with a stacking free 10% dampener? There is a reason why you even see some people trying to shoe-horn cloaks onto non-scouts, and it isn't because they suck. Yet in only lasts 30ish seconds. As for the dampener, that's only at proto level that gets the 10% (which wouldn't do much for bigger frames) and having to sacrifice much more fitting resources. The ADV cloak is the best, yet it only offers a 5% dampening and was it 25 seconds of up time? I'm guessing you're not a scout? As for people trying to put cloaks on non-scouts, it's because they think they become invisible, when in reality the only thing that they can fit is the STD Cloak, which gives no damp and only lasts about 10 seconds or so.
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1184	Posted - 2014.10.17 17:47:00 - [42] - Quote Joel II X wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Joel II X wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: it was in the Barbershop, and something like that is happening. Not zero, but cloaked scouts will not be able to know where everyone is in a 30m radius and pick the most vulnerable target or provide passive scans for their squad while cloaked. Cloak has been too risk-free since 1.8 and you all know how we feel about risk free playstyles. So you're making the cloak even more bad than it is? Basically, by equipping and using the cloak, you'd be a walking pile of uselessness. Will you guys at least buff the duration time a bit? Right now, it can't be used for anything other than penetrate a 30m area. This is sarcasm right? I mean what could be useful about being VERY hard to see (conditionally) and not showing up on any visual tacnets.... along with a stacking free 10% dampener? There is a reason why you even see some people trying to shoe-horn cloaks onto non-scouts, and it isn't because they suck. Yet in only lasts 30ish seconds. As for the dampener, that's only at proto level that gets the 10% (which wouldn't do much for bigger frames) and having to sacrifice much more fitting resources. The ADV cloak is the best, yet it only offers a 5% dampening and was it 25 seconds of up time? I'm guessing you're not a scout? As for people trying to put cloaks on non-scouts, it's because they think they become invisible, when in reality the only thing that they can fit is the STD Cloak, which gives no damp and only lasts about 10 seconds or so. I actually have a number of scout fits I use quite often, most of the time I use my scout ak.0 when I get sick and tired of getting shotgunned by invisible cloaked scouts. You know, best counter to a cloaked scout is another one. How in the hell would you fit a proto cloak on a larger frame....? I'm guessing that anyone who doesn't agree with your position is automatically labeled not a scout in your book? How very scout-community like. On top of that you have no idea how long any of the cloaks last for. Did you really say only 30 seconds(proto is 40... do you even scout?)... like as in only enough time to cover 300 meters? Or only 30 seconds (like as in advanced) which is still enough time to cover 200+ meters? Also, 15 seconds of cloak is more than enough for me on my basic suits. Finally, that 5-10% of cloak makes a huge difference. A 5% cloak will get you under 20 DB (19db) with 1 damp on a cal/gal suit, that means you avoid a everything except for amarr scout w/ 2 enhancers and a proto focused scanner. Fixing EWAR
Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion 57	Posted - 2014.10.17 18:19:00 - [43] - Quote Joel II X wrote: So you're making the cloak even more bad than it is? Basically, by equipping and using the cloak, you'd be a walking pile of uselessness. Will you guys at least buff the duration time a bit? Right now, it can't be used for anything other than penetrate a 30m area. You know scouts can run at around 8 meters per second right? And even the worst cloak lasts 15 seconds. Simple math gives you 158 = area you can penetrate = 120m area. Even if you walked to your target you could get 155 meters away, which is 75m. Again this is with the WORST cloak. The advanced cloak gives you twice as much time (240/150 meters) and the proto gives you 10 seconds more on top of that. Just a quick tip: making claims that are trivially disprovable with simple math doesn't make your claims more believable and likely to be considered, it just makes you look like an uninformed and probably biased idiot.
Atiim 13032	Posted - 2014.10.17 18:24:00 - [44] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: You know scouts can run at around 8 meters per second right? And even the worst cloak lasts 15 seconds. Simple math gives you 15*8 = area you can penetrate = 120m area. If you don't mind waiting for the 10s recharge, the STD Cloak Field lasts 25s, making the distance 200m. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 8005	Posted - 2014.10.17 18:31:00 - [45] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: you all know how we feel about risk free playstyles. Are you familiar with the Caldari? CCP holds the Caldari's hand so this doesn't happen again.
Joel II X Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3866	Posted - 2014.10.17 19:46:00 - [46] - Quote Atiim wrote: Joel II X wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Joel II X wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: it was in the Barbershop, and something like that is happening. Not zero, but cloaked scouts will not be able to know where everyone is in a 30m radius and pick the most vulnerable target or provide passive scans for their squad while cloaked. Cloak has been too risk-free since 1.8 and you all know how we feel about risk free playstyles. So you're making the cloak even more bad than it is? Basically, by equipping and using the cloak, you'd be a walking pile of uselessness. Will you guys at least buff the duration time a bit? Right now, it can't be used for anything other than penetrate a 30m area. I think there should be a penetration variant that lasts much longer, but has a longer delay before you can fire. Would be used for crossing open areas and getting behind enemy lines, rather than as a combat aid. I can get behind this. Since it's used for open areas and staying out of combat, I'd say removing the dB bonuses as well would be nice. Allotek Flux Cloak Field Cloak Fields are Caldari, not Gallente. Viziam Forge Gun exists. Your argument is invalid.
Joel II X Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3866	Posted - 2014.10.17 19:49:00 - [47] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Joel II X wrote: So you're making the cloak even more bad than it is? Basically, by equipping and using the cloak, you'd be a walking pile of uselessness. Will you guys at least buff the duration time a bit? Right now, it can't be used for anything other than penetrate a 30m area. You know scouts can run at around 8 meters per second right? And even the worst cloak lasts 15 seconds. Simple math gives you 158 = area you can penetrate = 120m area. Even if you walked to your target you could get 155 meters away, which is 75m. Again this is with the WORST cloak. The advanced cloak gives you twice as much time (240/150 meters) and the proto gives you 10 seconds more on top of that. Just a quick tip: making claims that are trivially disprovable with simple math doesn't make your claims more believable and likely to be considered, it just makes you look like an uninformed and probably biased idiot. That's running in a straight line, making it a one dimensional. An area consists of two directions. Forwards, and to the side. Being the mathematical genius you are, I probably look silly telling you this.
CommanderBolt KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 2004	Posted - 2014.10.17 20:00:00 - [48] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: it was in the Barbershop, and something like that is happening. Not zero, but cloaked scouts will not be able to know where everyone is in a 30m radius and pick the most vulnerable target or provide passive scans for their squad while cloaked. Cloak has been too risk-free since 1.8 and you all know how we feel about risk free playstyles. lol the cloak is a joke anyway! Terribly easy to spot 99% of the time and it leaves them vulnerable(Hopefully even more so in 1.9). Please nerf the clack moar! Makes my life as a speed scout that bit better! Dampening is THE key. A bane of the dust player. Trust me EWAR is the biggest factor in this game I find right now. "Also I think knives are a good idea, big f**k-off shiny ones" "Guns for show, Knives for a pro" MY LIFE FOR AIUR!
Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion 60	Posted - 2014.10.17 20:03:00 - [49] - Quote Joel II X wrote: Vesta Opalus wrote: Joel II X wrote: So you're making the cloak even more bad than it is? Basically, by equipping and using the cloak, you'd be a walking pile of uselessness. Will you guys at least buff the duration time a bit? Right now, it can't be used for anything other than penetrate a 30m area. You know scouts can run at around 8 meters per second right? And even the worst cloak lasts 15 seconds. Simple math gives you 158 = area you can penetrate = 120m area. Even if you walked to your target you could get 155 meters away, which is 75m. Again this is with the WORST cloak. The advanced cloak gives you twice as much time (240/150 meters) and the proto gives you 10 seconds more on top of that. Just a quick tip: making claims that are trivially disprovable with simple math doesn't make your claims more believable and likely to be considered, it just makes you look like an uninformed and probably biased idiot. That's running in a straight line, making it a one dimensional. An area consists of two directions. Forwards, and to the side. Being the mathematical genius you are, I probably look silly telling you this. Penetrate doesnt mean circumnavigate. If you honestly cant operate around a 30m area in the cloaking time available, then maybe you do need cloak to be better to compete. You can literally cross the diameter of the area you are talking about 4 times over before running out of cloak, so even if you DID mean run entirely around the area you absolutely can do that and more.
Joel II X Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3866	Posted - 2014.10.17 20:33:00 - [50] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Joel II X wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Joel II X wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: it was in the Barbershop, and something like that is happening. Not zero, but cloaked scouts will not be able to know where everyone is in a 30m radius and pick the most vulnerable target or provide passive scans for their squad while cloaked. Cloak has been too risk-free since 1.8 and you all know how we feel about risk free playstyles. So you're making the cloak even more bad than it is? Basically, by equipping and using the cloak, you'd be a walking pile of uselessness. Will you guys at least buff the duration time a bit? Right now, it can't be used for anything other than penetrate a 30m area. This is sarcasm right? I mean what could be useful about being VERY hard to see (conditionally) and not showing up on any visual tacnets.... along with a stacking free 10% dampener? There is a reason why you even see some people trying to shoe-horn cloaks onto non-scouts, and it isn't because they suck. Yet in only lasts 30ish seconds. As for the dampener, that's only at proto level that gets the 10% (which wouldn't do much for bigger frames) and having to sacrifice much more fitting resources. The ADV cloak is the best, yet it only offers a 5% dampening and was it 25 seconds of up time? I'm guessing you're not a scout? As for people trying to put cloaks on non-scouts, it's because they think they become invisible, when in reality the only thing that they can fit is the STD Cloak, which gives no damp and only lasts about 10 seconds or so. I actually have a number of scout fits I use quite often, most of the time I use my scout ak.0 when I get sick and tired of getting shotgunned by invisible cloaked scouts. You know, best counter to a cloaked scout is another one. How in the hell would you fit a proto cloak on a larger frame....? I'm guessing that anyone who doesn't agree with your position is automatically labeled not a scout in your book? How very scout-community like. On top of that you have no idea how long any of the cloaks last for. Did you really say only 30 seconds(proto is 40... do you even scout?)... like as in only enough time to cover 300 meters? Or only 30 seconds (like as in advanced) which is still enough time to cover 200+ meters? Also, 15 seconds of cloak is more than enough for me on my basic suits. Finally, that 5-10% of cloak makes a huge difference. A 5% cloak will get you under 20 DB (19db) with 1 damp on a cal/gal suit, that means you avoid a everything except for amarr scout w/ 2 enhancers and a proto focused scanner. It sounded like you weren't when you mentioned that it makes very hard to see and not show up on the Tacnet. Scouts are fairly easy to spot if they're not standing still, and they can very much show up on tacnets if you have enough precision, via either passives or actives. I should've wrote this part better. I meant that even if a larger frame were to fit a proto cloak, it would be useless for them, the STD even more so since it is worst in every possible way. I haven't used the cloak in a long time, so I forgot the exact numbers. I scout without the cloak. I don't have the proto cloak unlocked, but with the ADV, I can only reach one side of the Gallente Research Facility to the other assuming I take the side with the CRU. Once outside, I'd have to wait for it to recharge, assuming I'm fast enough and there are no enemies to distract me from getting there. And the proto cloak may hide you from plenty of scanners with a simple module and press of a button, but not by much. 5-10% is barely enough. I'm not saying bring it back to before, though. I'm just saying having a Profile Dampener is 10x more useful since it takes up less resources and is always active. If you're using the cloak to simply bypass precision, then you might want to rethink your fits. I personally think the cloak should only disguise your appearance, not your profile, but for this, I feel a slight buff in duration is needed (maybe not as much as before, but definitely more than now).

Joel II X Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3866	Posted - 2014.10.17 20:38:00 - [51] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Joel II X wrote: Vesta Opalus wrote: Joel II X wrote: So you're making the cloak even more bad than it is? Basically, by equipping and using the cloak, you'd be a walking pile of uselessness. Will you guys at least buff the duration time a bit? Right now, it can't be used for anything other than penetrate a 30m area. You know scouts can run at around 8 meters per second right? And even the worst cloak lasts 15 seconds. Simple math gives you 158 = area you can penetrate = 120m area. Even if you walked to your target you could get 155 meters away, which is 75m. Again this is with the WORST cloak. The advanced cloak gives you twice as much time (240/150 meters) and the proto gives you 10 seconds more on top of that. Just a quick tip: making claims that are trivially disprovable with simple math doesn't make your claims more believable and likely to be considered, it just makes you look like an uninformed and probably biased idiot. That's running in a straight line, making it a one dimensional. An area consists of two directions. Forwards, and to the side. Being the mathematical genius you are, I probably look silly telling you this. Penetrate doesnt mean circumnavigate. If you honestly cant operate around a 30m area in the cloaking time available, then maybe you do need cloak to be better to compete. You can literally cross the diameter of the area you are talking about 4 times over before running out of cloak, so even if you DID mean run entirely around the area you absolutely can do that and more. Did you take into account other factors such as enemies, uplinks, and pathways? I like to use the Gallente Research Facility as an example since it is a map favored to scouts, in my opinion. You can't honestly say you'll just run straight through that map with your cloak and everything will be okay. A successful penetration involves getting behind enemy lines and NOT getting spotted. Then again, everything were writing here is based on paper observations and various things can happen in battle. I usually take account the worst possible situation, because rest assured, against an organized squad, that cloak wouldn't help you as much as it should.
CLONE117 True Pros Forever 842	Posted - 2014.10.17 20:46:00 - [52] - Quote what if the cloak changed? the faster u move the easier your are to see or spot. or is that already in? if it is it needs to be improved. then a again i already spotted cloaked scout running straight towards me yesterday. was such an easy rail turret kill.. and the way he flew!.. i suppose its his fault for running in a straight line. pve for dust 514. so what? u killed me twice with proto?. i killed you once with my mlt fit. that takes more skill.
Joel II X Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3868	Posted - 2014.10.17 20:51:00 - [53] - Quote CLONE117 wrote: what if the cloak changed? the faster u move the easier your are to see or spot. or is that already in? if it is it needs to be improved. then a again i already spotted cloaked scout running straight towards me yesterday. was such an easy rail turret kill.. and the way he flew!.. i suppose its his fault for running in a straight line. It's in, but it revolves around the analog stick. The more you tilt it, the faster you move and more shimmer you produce.
Atiim 13036	Posted - 2014.10.17 21:10:00 - [54] - Quote Joel II X wrote: Viziam Forge Gun exists. Your argument is invalid. No it's not, as the Caldari & Amarr aren't directly fighting each-other. You'll notice that there are many items which are developed by a corporation who isn't a part of the race that creates the item, such as Allotek Flux Drop Uplinks & Lai Dai Flux Repair Tools. However, those corporations aren't directly fighting each-other (save for battles where they're assisting their allies). What you are asking for, is an item made by a corporation who's race is directly opposed to the race of the original manufacturer. Which is the equivalent of asking for a Viziam Combat Rifle or Boundless Laser Rifle. It wouldn't make any sense whatsoever from a lore, game-play, or even common-sense perspective, therefore it won't happen. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2603	Posted - 2014.10.17 21:30:00 - [55] - Quote Scouts get wrecked by everyone that sees them. More specifically, assaults. They are the suit I fear the most, by far. "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion 62	Posted - 2014.10.17 21:42:00 - [56] - Quote Joel II X wrote: Did you take into account other factors such as enemies, uplinks, and pathways? I like to use the Gallente Research Facility as an example since it is a map favored to scouts, in my opinion. You can't honestly say you'll just run straight through that map with your cloak and everything will be okay. A successful penetration involves getting behind enemy lines and NOT getting spotted. Then again, everything were writing here is based on paper observations and various things can happen in battle. I usually take account the worst possible situation, because rest assured, against an organized squad, that cloak wouldn't help you as much as it should. Other factors are entirely situational. Its my opinion that the cloak time is fine. If you think its too short, then fine, but dont be surprised when you make a statement with an actual number in it and someone tears it a new one. I'd be perfectly fine with making the cloak last longer if the rest of the damn thing was nerfed or there was a counter mechanic put into the game, but right now its insane how effective it is at letting you slip away even from people in open ground taking shots at you while also enhancing already OP dampening mechanics and making it trivial to close into shotgun optimal to one shot half the suits in the game. Its not just imbalanced, theres no balance to speak of, there is no other side on the scales here, theres just cloak+damp+shotgun with no actual counter. Your only option is to use the same equipment to gain parity and rely on dumb luck to win every engagement.
Lynn Beck Fooly Cooly. 2118	Posted - 2014.10.17 22:16:00 - [57] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Daily reminder that cloak/damps has no mechanics based counter in this game. The only counter is a completely unrealistic amount of 24/7 360x360 degree situational awareness devoted entirely to finding the scout which is magically maintained while dealing with objectives and the rest of the enemy team. On top of that the scout will probably have full wallhack vision on you and most of your teamates who arent exploiting the same broken mechanic. Totally reasonable. You do realize that any scout who wants to stay completely unscannable will be completely unable to scan you as well - or at least, not very far. - and if they DO dedicate 2/3 damps AND 3/4 precisions, then they will have 0 tank to even fight you in. The only option is: Damp fully, unscannable, and shield tank. Pro: unscannable and have decent(but not even close to "hulking" tank) HP Con: Almost completely blind, save for heavies/assaults around corners, and are very likely to jump a railing into a HMG's LoS or otherwise equally deadly threat Damp fully, equip precisions Pro: can see any cloaked scout nearby that isn't dedicated to complete invis, and is equally invis. Con: NO HP to fight with, and are stuck with a short scanning radius, thus not allowing you to see any medium ranged' threat. Damp partially, equip range amp/precisions. Pro: can see to a decent range, dodge most scanners, and can see most threats. Con: Option #2 can see you perfectly fine, and can 1shot you with a SCR/SG/Flaylock. Damp partially, equip range amp/precisions, sacrifice a precision for shields. Pro: Decent variety in equips, can see SOME suits, are partially invis, and can see to a decent enough range. Con: visible to any specialized fit, can't scan specialized fits, and can't fight option #1/#2 General John Ripper -BAM! I'm Emeril Lagasse. This message was approved by the 'Nobody Loved You' Foundation
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1188	Posted - 2014.10.17 23:36:00 - [58] - Quote Lynn Beck wrote: Vesta Opalus wrote: Daily reminder that cloak/damps has no mechanics based counter in this game. The only counter is a completely unrealistic amount of 24/7 360x360 degree situational awareness devoted entirely to finding the scout which is magically maintained while dealing with objectives and the rest of the enemy team. On top of that the scout will probably have full wallhack vision on you and most of your teamates who arent exploiting the same broken mechanic. Totally reasonable. You do realize that any scout who wants to stay completely unscannable will be completely unable to scan you as well - or at least, not very far. - and if they DO dedicate 2/3 damps AND 3/4 precisions, then they will have 0 tank to even fight you in. The only option is: Damp fully, unscannable, and shield tank. Pro: unscannable and have decent(but not even close to "hulking" tank) HP Con: Almost completely blind, save for heavies/assaults around corners, and are very likely to jump a railing into a HMG's LoS or otherwise equally deadly threat\ Minmatar scouts will see all undampened logis and 1 damp assault/com/sen within a 112,000 cubic meter volume, the caldari will see the same suits within a 380,000 cubic meter section(more volume than any active scanner). The gal will be @ 112,000 (better than any 100 meter active scanner) but this time the logi with only 1 damp will be seen, the amarr as well. By default these suits, with fitting nothing... absolutely CRUSH advanced active scanners. Lynn Beck wrote: Damp fully, equip precisions Pro: can see any cloaked scout nearby that isn't dedicated to complete invis, and is equally invis. Con: NO HP to fight with, and are stuck with a short scanning radius, thus not allowing you to see any medium ranged' threat. So, gallente can sacrifice 2 damps to be completely invisible to all non-proto-focused scanners... turn on the proto cloak and he is now invisible, while being able to see any scout undamped, or the amarr/caldari with only one damp. It still has two spare low-slots open and has the equivalent of a free enhanced armor rep always running. This means it can do all of that and still double it's HP. Lynn Beck wrote: Damp partially, equip range amp/precisions. Pro: can see to a decent range, dodge most scanners, and can see most threats. Con: Option #2 can see you perfectly fine, and can 1shot you with a SCR/SG/Flaylock. Take the gallente scout above, throw 2 range booster on it, now you have all of the benefits from above (sans the doubling of hitpoints), no scout can see you, and you have a scan that covers 900,000 cubic meters @ 21 dB. Permascanned. Lynn Beck wrote: Damp partially, equip range amp/precisions, sacrifice a precision for shields. Pro: Decent variety in equips, can see SOME suits, are partially invis, and can see to a decent enough range. Con: visible to any specialized fit, can't scan specialized fits, and can't fight option #1/#2 Can still see every single medium suit with 1 dampener or less on within the volume mentioned before. Still has 900,000 cubic volume of permascan, still able to dodge all scans, now precision @ 26 dB (all undampened scouts, AM/Min while cloaked) Oh speaking of volumes, the best active scanner for dB (active focused proto scanner) scans a volume of 16,000 cubic meters, and the proto flux with 200m range @ 90 degrees? ~ 100,000... (someone check my math just to be sure, volume of a sphere is easy, (4/3)pir^3, for the scanners it would be the integral from 0 to pi of pi/(4 or 6 depending on 90 or 60 degrees)*r^2) Fixing EWAR
Zindorak G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1112	Posted - 2014.10.18 01:25:00 - [59] - Quote Mass Driver > Scout Pokemon master and Tekken Lord Gk0 Scout yay :) Pls fix SCR CCP
Espartoi Orkz Clan 337	Posted - 2014.10.18 01:37:00 - [60] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: it was in the Barbershop, and something like that is happening. Not zero, but cloaked scouts will not be able to know where everyone is in a 30m radius and pick the most vulnerable target or provide passive scans for their squad while cloaked. Cloak has been too risk-free since 1.8 and you all know how we feel about risk free playstyles. And this new MLT blueprints are totally no risk-free. SHOOT SMASH STOMP CHOP FLAK THE WORLD

Jathniel G I A N T 1197	Posted - 2014.10.18 01:53:00 - [61] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: it was in the Barbershop, and something like that is happening. Not zero, but cloaked scouts will not be able to know where everyone is in a 30m radius and pick the most vulnerable target or provide passive scans for their squad while cloaked. Cloak has been too risk-free since 1.8 and you all know how we feel about risk free playstyles. How about recloaking delay? Something of the order of 5 secs. Blinding the scouts while cloaked isn't going to address the risk-free problem, if they can simply recloak again. Decloaking for an attack or an escape should be a planned series of action. I'm going to decloak now, attack here, and recloak 5 secs here. If you blind the Scouts, you will simply be putting them back into the same frying pan as the other suits, and with their current HP levels, the scout will be broken again. If you impose a recloaking delay, this will force Scouts to face the consequences of choosing to attack. But don't effect their scans. Blinding Scouts will only hurt Scouts that aren't Shotties. Set your goals high, and shoot for the moon; even if you miss you'll land amongst the stars.
iKILLu osborne Kirjuun Heiian 412	Posted - 2014.10.18 02:16:00 - [62] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: it was in the Barbershop, and something like that is happening. Not zero, but cloaked scouts will not be able to know where everyone is in a 30m radius and pick the most vulnerable target or provide passive scans for their squad while cloaked. Cloak has been too risk-free since 1.8 and you all know how we feel about risk free playstyles. what about cal scout range bonus? I'm all for normalizing scouts scan range to a smaller radius while cloaked, but with cal scouts bonus people will cry cal scout is op when compared to other scouts. also a fully dampened gal shotty has no counter and situational awareness is not a factor,i run shotty and i only make my move against players when they are vunerable (ie. reloading, engaging another enemy, hacking etc.) I'm not suggesting nerfing the gal scout, but bringing precision enhancors to the same % of dampeners, cause currently my ck0 with 4 complex precision can't see a gal scout with a proto cloak and 2 c. dampeners, which isn't balance lp cal scout i demand it
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 252	Posted - 2014.10.18 02:21:00 - [63] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: it was in the Barbershop, and something like that is happening. Not zero, but cloaked scouts will not be able to know where everyone is in a 30m radius and pick the most vulnerable target or provide passive scans for their squad while cloaked. Cloak has been too risk-free since 1.8 and you all know how we feel about risk free playstyles. That isn't even as much of a problem. Good players will stop and look over their shoulder periodically. The current incarnation of cloak is plenty survivable. It's the hit detection and scouts that breaks them. Matrix dodging through bullets, lasers, explosions (explosions created on their own BODIES) with virtually no damage is what ya'll should be looking at. If it's too complicated to be fixed so easily just say so and be done with it.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 2186	Posted - 2014.10.18 04:35:00 - [64] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: it was in the Barbershop, and something like that is happening. Not zero, but cloaked scouts will not be able to know where everyone is in a 30m radius and pick the most vulnerable target or provide passive scans for their squad while cloaked. Cloak has been too risk-free since 1.8 and you all know how we feel about risk free playstyles. Going to THE scout thread to talk about nerfing scouts is like going to the extremely wealthy to ask about tax codes, you are not going to get an honest assessment. The amount of group-think in that thread is scary. Math doesn't lie, you have the metrics, you can easily find out many correlations through math. Ask the ADS community what happens when Rattati comes to you to discuss nerfing your role and you don't give objective well thought out feedback. No, he doesn't "discuss." He just does without discussion. Why? Because infantry wants it, and CCP doesn't care about what pilots think. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1189	Posted - 2014.10.18 04:46:00 - [65] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: it was in the Barbershop, and something like that is happening. Not zero, but cloaked scouts will not be able to know where everyone is in a 30m radius and pick the most vulnerable target or provide passive scans for their squad while cloaked. Cloak has been too risk-free since 1.8 and you all know how we feel about risk free playstyles. Going to THE scout thread to talk about nerfing scouts is like going to the extremely wealthy to ask about tax codes, you are not going to get an honest assessment. The amount of group-think in that thread is scary. Math doesn't lie, you have the metrics, you can easily find out many correlations through math. Ask the ADS community what happens when Rattati comes to you to discuss nerfing your role and you don't give objective well thought out feedback. No, he doesn't "discuss." He just does without discussion. Why? Because infantry wants it, and CCP doesn't care about what pilots think. C'mon Spkr, I really don't think that is the case. I just had a game the other day where I was trying to solo a tank(gunnlogi), I laid out... 10 proximity mines (a trap) and hit it with 2 lia dai packed AV grenades along with 1 shot from an allotek PLC before it killed me.... it ran over all 10 of the proxies mind you. I think the terrain actually glitched on that one. I am 1-2 levels in proficiency shy of having every single AV weapon/grenade/equipment at maxxed proto and I still cannot solo good tankers or good ADS pilots. It is only when another skilled player joins the fray that we can guarantee a kill assuming the pilot doesn't bug off. Hell I have had matches where, since the berries were using militia swarms, tanks would just chill out for a while even when under fire (situations like these make me like pulling out the proto breach forge gun.) As an aside, I would be totally willing to back a proposal of boosting tanks to take 2-3 AV'ers to kill as long as the main turrets become AV/anti-installation only. EWAR tool
Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion 69	Posted - 2014.10.18 05:28:00 - [66] - Quote Lynn Beck wrote: You do realize that any scout who wants to stay completely unscannable will be completely unable to scan you as well - or at least, not very far. - and if they DO dedicate 2/3 damps AND 3/4 precisions, then they will have 0 tank to even fight you in. Im not sure why you are talking about running precision mods against a scout that you know is dampened. I dont know if you know this, but every scout except minmatar can fully damp (be unscannable to anything in the game) with 2 modules and a cloak field (not sure if minmatar take 3 damps or not). This leaves ~6 modules to do whatever they want with them, including run enough precision to find any medium/heavy frame and for amar/gallente enough low slots left over to run 500+ hp suits or some range extenders on scans or a mix of hp/range/kincats/whatever. There is no point in running more than 2 precision because the vast majority of the fits in the game will fall either well under 2, or be unscannable entirely to ANY amount of precision. In any case running precision against a fully damped up scout is just stupid, so why would I ever try it? So what should I try? If I run anything aside from a scout, I will be subject to an enemy who goes much faster than me, can close within shotgun distance very easily and kill me inside of a couple of seconds, and knows where I am at all times within a certain range. So I have to run a scout. What do I run? As stated above precision is 100% useless. I might run 1 precision just to have vision on the rest of the enemy team, and I can probably just stick to 1 dampener unless the enemy guy is an amarr scout. Now he cant see me, I cant see him, we are both running around slaughtering the others teamates, but no one can really stop either of us. This is not balance. This is the kind of pre-AV buff/tank nerf balance that saw half a dozen tanks every match slaughtering everything that wasnt another tank, but in this case the tanks cant see each other, so even the same fit cant counter itself. Its just a way to avoid other people doing the same exploitative **. IMO: Dampeners' complete dominance over precision is the worst problem in EWAR balance right now, precision should always win, the question should be at what RANGE does it win, with precision/range enhancers extending the range and dampeners pushing it back in. Otherwise 1 precision is the only precision mod that you will ever need. Failing this, cloak+damp+shotgun just needs to be nerfed into the ***** ground. I'd much rather have 24/7 old style perma scan in the game than have blueberries subjected to being farmed by people who are literally running around invisible with wall hack and a weapon that one shots people. For some reason this hasnt been removed from the game yet.
Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion 69	Posted - 2014.10.18 05:28:00 - [67] - Quote double post, yay
Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion 69	Posted - 2014.10.18 05:45:00 - [68] - Quote Joel II X wrote: It's in, but it revolves around the analog stick. The more you tilt it, the faster you move and more shimmer you produce. Can you provide proof of this? I just wasted some of my time and a friends testing and found the shimmer was identical for all speeds, running and walking, with all different analog stick tilts. I wish you wouldnt spout bs like this and in another of your posts where you claim "Scouts are fairly easy to spot if they're not standing still, and they can very much show up on tacnets if you have enough precision, via either passives or actives. ". This claim is untrue, all scout frames can dampen under any precision achievable in the game as it stands now, and the first quoted claim (analog stick tilt affects shimmer intensity) also appears to be false. Please do not try and contribute to a discussion with statements of certainty when you don't have any clue what you are talking about.
nicholas73 Glitched Connection 252	Posted - 2014.10.18 10:19:00 - [69] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: it was in the Barbershop, and something like that is happening. Not zero, but cloaked scouts will not be able to know where everyone is in a 30m radius and pick the most vulnerable target or provide passive scans for their squad while cloaked. Cloak has been too risk-free since 1.8 and you all know how we feel about risk free playstyles. While you're at it why not fix bricked tanked scouts. Add +15% dampening for every armour plate they put on. Proud member of Glitched Connection "Only idiots start a fight they can't win" - Sora (No Game No Life)
Kaze Eyrou Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 756	Posted - 2014.10.18 10:22:00 - [70] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Assaults get naturally countered by entrenched sentinels they try to rush down. Sentinels are geographically countered by Commando's/Assaults taking up elevated positions with mass drivers/rail rifles, as well as scout assassins. Commando's get wrecked by Assaults/Heavies on even terrain. Logi's get wrecked by everyone. Scouts get wrecked by......? And let's not say situational awareness, because it does not exist in a game with a memory leak prone sound engine and poor frame rate. It seems to me that the only possible counter is a higher level of skill than the scout himself possesses in terms of gun game. Which is interesting really, as that is not a natural pre-requisite for any other type of counter in the game, instead a reinforcer of the mandate. But you know, I'm experimenting with various builds due to boredom so if you have any thoughts on this please let me know. Logi here. Can confirm. I get wrecked by everyone. EDIT: And yes, it feels like your statement holds true about a higher level of skill scout being an ultimate counter to the scout. Which does happen to me a lot since I'm a scrubby scout. I will say (someone mentioned earlier too) the Bolt Pistol seems to be a great counter to scouts for the moment. Scout small hitboxes with a super bullet magnetism Bolt Pistol means you aim near a scout and it ensures a hit. And then I run across scouts with Bolt Pistols... Closed Beta Vet // Logi Bro // @KazeEyrou



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