DUST Search - A thought.

Fox Gaden wrote:

Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:

One at a time , too many changes never work out too well and you don't want to handicap scout too much or else we will be where we first started and the buffing process will start again and might make matters worst .

Little changes first to the role to even out those who use the strengths as an exploit , we don't want to punish those who have been steady at playing the role and who don't use the role to pad their kill ratio .

They should fashion them similar to Logistic , where now you really can't be too much a " slayer logi " unless you sacrifice a lot and still your not going to be too effective for too long .

Those who truly play the role like it's meant to be true scouts , some roles just don't have a consequential purpose .

CCP is working on that even obviously .

You make a good point.

However, I think adding a greater movement penalty to Plate Armour (not ferro or reactive) for light frame suits would only effect Scouts that stack a lot of Plate.

Combine that with reduced Scan radius while Cloeaked, and I think you have a couple steps in the right direction without effecting the old-school hard core Scouts at all.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4919	Posted - 2014.10.17 08:24:00 - [1] - Quote Assaults get naturally countered by entrenched sentinels they try to rush down. Sentinels are geographically countered by Commando's/Assaults taking up elevated positions with mass drivers/rail rifles, as well as scout assassins. Commando's get wrecked by Assaults/Heavies on even terrain. Logi's get wrecked by everyone. Scouts get wrecked by......? And let's not say situational awareness, because it does not exist in a game with a memory leak prone sound engine and poor frame rate. But you know, I'm experimenting with various builds due to boredom so if you have any thoughts on this please let me know.
rithu Freek Coalition Freek Alliance 158	Posted - 2014.10.17 08:38:00 - [2] - Quote Bad scouts get wrecked by heavies. Med scouts get wrecked by pro scouts & pro scouts became pro after skilling into ewars, weapons, and almost all modules. BUT they do get wrecked, by all other pro suits.( People with good gun game & situational awareness) And not to mention a squad full of protos.
LT SHANKS Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 3598	Posted - 2014.10.17 10:04:00 - [3] - Quote Scouts get wrecked by anyone with a Bolt Pistol.
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 12674	Posted - 2014.10.17 10:23:00 - [4] - Quote Dying as a scout means making a mistake. You are always the one who picks the fights, unlike every other unit where they can have scouts attack them out of nowhere, meaning they are on the defensive. With alpha weapons like shotguns and nova knives, it really does come down to making a mistake. Cloaks made avoiding mistakes easier. No amount of situational awareness is going to allow you to detect a cloaked scout in broad daylight (Where the shimmer is barely visible) as you are busy not dying from the HMG around the corner. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
Atiim 13023	Posted - 2014.10.17 11:42:00 - [5] - Quote Sentinels sacrifice speed Logistics sacrifice HP, Speed, and a Sidearm Commandos sacrifice HP, Speed, and Slots Assaults don't have an advantage to warrant a sacrifice What do scouts have? I would say HP but you can easily pass 600 HP without any speed penalties. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Bahirae Serugiusu Vendetta Reactionary Force 179	Posted - 2014.10.17 11:46:00 - [6] - Quote Atiim wrote: Sentinels sacrifice speed Logistics sacrifice HP, Speed, and a Sidearm Commandos sacrifice HP, Speed, and Slots Assaults don't have an advantage to warrant a sacrifice What do scouts have? I would say HP but you can easily pass 600 HP without any speed penalties. You pretty much summed up assaults right there.
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 3894	Posted - 2014.10.17 12:04:00 - [7] - Quote Atiim wrote: What do scouts have? The best passive scans, fastest walk/sprint/strafe speeds, fastest stamina regen, light weapon, sidearm, and grenade, two equipment slots, slot layouts within 1 slot of an assault dropsuit, smallest hitboxes, and bonuses to fitting cloaking devices. For all that, they somehow manage to suffer through lower initial eHP My advice to you, playa...
Henrietta Unknown Nox Lupos 387	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:40:00 - [8] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Dying as a scout means making a mistake. You are always the one who picks the fights, unlike every other unit where they can have scouts attack them out of nowhere, meaning they are on the defensive. With alpha weapons like shotguns and nova knives, it really does come down to making a mistake. Cloaks made avoiding mistakes easier. And that's why no one really tries to scout without it. There needs to be a considerable penalty to be cloaked. It should count towards infiltration efforts, not slaying. So with the proposed firing delay in 1.9, I would also like for the scout-cloak bonuses to be tuned down. You'd have to sacrifice your tank or slayer-relevant proto modules to fit a cloak, and vice versa. Encourage some diversity. It's hard, but not impossible to run without the cloak. All that I really worry about are rail rifles and shotgun-cloak-scouts. Give the Magsex some love.
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 3898	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:42:00 - [9] - Quote Henrietta Unknown wrote: There needs to be a considerable penalty to be cloaked. I believe it was Rattati that said he liked the idea of being cloaked dropping your scan radius to 0m. That would be a new penalty for cloaking. Don't ask me what thread it was in, but it was Features and Ideas. My advice to you, playa...

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 8800	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:54:00 - [10] - Quote it was in the Barbershop, and something like that is happening. Not zero, but cloaked scouts will not be able to know where everyone is in a 30m radius and pick the most vulnerable target or provide passive scans for their squad while cloaked. Cloak has been too risk-free since 1.8 and you all know how we feel about risk free playstyles. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 3899	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:00:00 - [11] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Cloak has been too risk-free since 1.8 and you all know how we feel about risk free playstyles. Now, if we could just handle scouts having incredible passive scans, movement speed, and great tanks. My advice to you, playa...
Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion 54	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:07:00 - [12] - Quote Daily reminder that cloak/damps has no mechanics based counter in this game. The only counter is a completely unrealistic amount of 24/7 360x360 degree situational awareness devoted entirely to finding the scout which is magically maintained while dealing with objectives and the rest of the enemy team. On top of that the scout will probably have full wallhack vision on you and most of your teamates who arent exploiting the same broken mechanic. Totally reasonable.
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Kyoudai Furinkazan 1283	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:12:00 - [13] - Quote One at a time , too many changes never work out too well and you don't want to handicap scout too much or else we will be where we first started and the buffing process will start again and might make matters worst . Little changes first to the role to even out those who use the strengths as an exploit , we don't want to punish those who have been steady at playing the role and who don't use the role to pad their kill ratio . They should fashion them similar to Logistic , where now you really can't be too much a " slayer logi " unless you sacrifice a lot and still your not going to be too effective for too long . Those who truly play the role like it's meant to be true scouts , some roles just don't have a consequential purpose . CCP is working on that even obviously . Delta should come with a SP or infantry SP refund so that a campaign for one is not needed .
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1179	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:14:00 - [14] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: it was in the Barbershop, and something like that is happening. Not zero, but cloaked scouts will not be able to know where everyone is in a 30m radius and pick the most vulnerable target or provide passive scans for their squad while cloaked. Cloak has been too risk-free since 1.8 and you all know how we feel about risk free playstyles. 30m is still a LOT of ground. Actually 30 meters is well over half of the volume than a CreoDron Flux Active Scanner. Just in case that sound wrong, here is my method: volume of a sphere is easy; (4/3)Pir^3 volume of the wedge; integral from 0 to PI of [0.5Pir^2) Fixing EWAR
Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion 54	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:17:00 - [15] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: it was in the Barbershop, and something like that is happening. Not zero, but cloaked scouts will not be able to know where everyone is in a 30m radius and pick the most vulnerable target or provide passive scans for their squad while cloaked. Cloak has been too risk-free since 1.8 and you all know how we feel about risk free playstyles. 30m is still a LOT of ground. Actually 30 meters is well over half of the volume than a CreoDron Flux Active Scanner. Just in case that sound wrong, here is my method: volume of a sphere is easy; (4/3)Pir^3 volume of the wedge; integral from 0 to PI of [0.5Pir^2) He said they will NOT be able to see everyone in a 30 meter radius.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4579	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:19:00 - [16] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Assaults get naturally countered by entrenched sentinels they try to rush down. Sentinels are geographically countered by Commando's/Assaults taking up elevated positions with mass drivers/rail rifles, as well as scout assassins. Commando's get wrecked by Assaults/Heavies on even terrain. Logi's get wrecked by everyone. Scouts get wrecked by......? And let's not say situational awareness, because it does not exist in a game with a memory leak prone sound engine and poor frame rate. It seems to me that the only possible counter is a higher level of skill than the scout himself possesses in terms of gun game. Which is interesting really, as that is not a natural pre-requisite for any other type of counter in the game, instead a reinforcer of the mandate. But you know, I'm experimenting with various builds due to boredom so if you have any thoughts on this please let me know. Scout is countered by anyone who sees them from more than 15m away. (And by "see" I mean visually.) Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 2183	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:22:00 - [17] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Cloak has been too risk-free since 1.8 and you all know how we feel about risk free playstyles. Now, if we could just handle scouts having incredible passive scans, movement speed, and great tanks. How about the sprint strafing while firing and jumping over your head? I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4579	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:23:00 - [18] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Dying as a scout means making a mistake. You are always the one who picks the fights, unlike every other unit where they can have scouts attack them out of nowhere, meaning they are on the defensive. With alpha weapons like shotguns and nova knives, it really does come down to making a mistake. Cloaks made avoiding mistakes easier. No amount of situational awareness is going to allow you to detect a cloaked scout in broad daylight (Where the shimmer is barely visible) as you are busy not dying from the HMG around the corner. I manage to kill a lot more Cloaked Scouts than uncloaked Scouts. Intense sunlight is not all that common in my experience, but it could be because as a Sentinel I prefer to remain indoors. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1180	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:26:00 - [19] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: it was in the Barbershop, and something like that is happening. Not zero, but cloaked scouts will not be able to know where everyone is in a 30m radius and pick the most vulnerable target or provide passive scans for their squad while cloaked. Cloak has been too risk-free since 1.8 and you all know how we feel about risk free playstyles. Going to THE scout thread to talk askt nerfing scouts is like going to the extremely wealthy to ask about tax codes, you are not going to get an honest assessment. Math doesn't lie, you have the metrics, you can easily find out many correlations through math. Going to the babershop to talk about balancing scouts is like going the Spk4thaDead to ask about balancing tanks. Fixing EWAR
Joel II X Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3857	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:31:00 - [20] - Quote In my scout suit, I tend to get rekt by anyone that has their cross hairs on me and actually had enough gun game to keep aim for 2 seconds. 3 for my Amarr Scout. ... Or anyone with an assault Mass Driver.

Joel II X Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3857	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:39:00 - [21] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: it was in the Barbershop, and something like that is happening. Not zero, but cloaked scouts will not be able to know where everyone is in a 30m radius and pick the most vulnerable target or provide passive scans for their squad while cloaked. Cloak has been too risk-free since 1.8 and you all know how we feel about risk free playstyles. So you're making the cloak even more bad than it is? Basically, by equipping and using the cloak, you'd be a walking pile of uselessness. Will you guys at least buff the duration time a bit? Right now, it can't be used for anything other than penetrate a 30m area.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4579	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:42:00 - [22] - Quote Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: One at a time , too many changes never work out too well and you don't want to handicap scout too much or else we will be where we first started and the buffing process will start again and might make matters worst . Little changes first to the role to even out those who use the strengths as an exploit , we don't want to punish those who have been steady at playing the role and who don't use the role to pad their kill ratio . They should fashion them similar to Logistic , where now you really can't be too much a " slayer logi " unless you sacrifice a lot and still your not going to be too effective for too long . Those who truly play the role like it's meant to be true scouts , some roles just don't have a consequential purpose . CCP is working on that even obviously . You make a good point. However, I think adding a greater movement penalty to Plate Armour (not ferro or reactive) for light frame suits would only effect Scouts that stack a lot of Plate. Combine that with reduced Scan radius while Cloeaked, and I think you have a couple steps in the right direction without effecting the old-school hard core Scouts at all. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1180	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:43:00 - [23] - Quote Joel II X wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: it was in the Barbershop, and something like that is happening. Not zero, but cloaked scouts will not be able to know where everyone is in a 30m radius and pick the most vulnerable target or provide passive scans for their squad while cloaked. Cloak has been too risk-free since 1.8 and you all know how we feel about risk free playstyles. So you're making the cloak even more bad than it is? Basically, by equipping and using the cloak, you'd be a walking pile of uselessness. Will you guys at least buff the duration time a bit? Right now, it can't be used for anything other than penetrate a 30m area. This is sarcasm right? I mean what could be useful about being VERY hard to see (conditionally) and not showing up on any visual tacnets.... along with a stacking free 10% dampener? There is a reason why you even see some people trying to shoe-horn cloaks onto non-scouts, and it isn't because they suck. Fixing EWAR
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4579	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:47:00 - [24] - Quote Joel II X wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: it was in the Barbershop, and something like that is happening. Not zero, but cloaked scouts will not be able to know where everyone is in a 30m radius and pick the most vulnerable target or provide passive scans for their squad while cloaked. Cloak has been too risk-free since 1.8 and you all know how we feel about risk free playstyles. So you're making the cloak even more bad than it is? Basically, by equipping and using the cloak, you'd be a walking pile of uselessness. Will you guys at least buff the duration time a bit? Right now, it can't be used for anything other than penetrate a 30m area. I think there should be a penetration variant that lasts much longer, but has a longer delay before you can fire. Would be used for crossing open areas and getting behind enemy lines, rather than as a combat aid. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 2183	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:47:00 - [25] - Quote And everything goes down the toilet when you have scouts sprinting back and forth, while shooting at you. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4580	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:51:00 - [26] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: it was in the Barbershop, and something like that is happening. Not zero, but cloaked scouts will not be able to know where everyone is in a 30m radius and pick the most vulnerable target or provide passive scans for their squad while cloaked. Cloak has been too risk-free since 1.8 and you all know how we feel about risk free playstyles. Going to THE scout thread to talk about nerfing scouts is like going to the extremely wealthy to ask about tax codes, you are not going to get an honest assessment. The amount of group-think in that thread is scary. Math doesn't lie, you have the metrics, you can easily find out many correlations through math. Ask the ADS community what happens when Rattati comes to you to discuss nerfing your role and you don't give objective well thought out feedback. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Cody Sietz Evzones Public.Disorder. 4067	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:56:00 - [27] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: One at a time , too many changes never work out too well and you don't want to handicap scout too much or else we will be where we first started and the buffing process will start again and might make matters worst . Little changes first to the role to even out those who use the strengths as an exploit , we don't want to punish those who have been steady at playing the role and who don't use the role to pad their kill ratio . They should fashion them similar to Logistic , where now you really can't be too much a " slayer logi " unless you sacrifice a lot and still your not going to be too effective for too long . Those who truly play the role like it's meant to be true scouts , some roles just don't have a consequential purpose . CCP is working on that even obviously . You make a good point. However, I think adding a greater movement penalty to Plate Armour (not ferro or reactive) for light frame suits would only effect Scouts that stack a lot of Plate. Combine that with reduced Scan radius while Cloeaked, and I think you have a couple steps in the right direction without effecting the old-school hard core Scouts at all. Then you'd probably just have scouts stacking FS plates. They aren't that hard to fit and provide nearly as much hp as the basic plate. I still say the way to go is to apply bonuses to the modules instead of the suit itself. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1180	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:57:00 - [28] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: it was in the Barbershop, and something like that is happening. Not zero, but cloaked scouts will not be able to know where everyone is in a 30m radius and pick the most vulnerable target or provide passive scans for their squad while cloaked. Cloak has been too risk-free since 1.8 and you all know how we feel about risk free playstyles. Going to THE scout thread to talk about nerfing scouts is like going to the extremely wealthy to ask about tax codes, you are not going to get an honest assessment. The amount of group-think in that thread is scary. Math doesn't lie, you have the metrics, you can easily find out many correlations through math. Ask the ADS community what happens when Rattati comes to you to discuss nerfing your role and you don't give objective well thought out feedback. IDK, it just looks like that is the only place where there is developer discussion about scouts, and that discussion is occuring with 4-5 people who all have a heavy scout bias. Looking at general discussion, there are a LOT of people who are really unhappy with scouts, yet they are being fully left out of the discussion. Seems wrong to me. Fixing EWAR
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Kyoudai Furinkazan 1283	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:58:00 - [29] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: However, I think adding a greater movement penalty to Plate Armour (not ferro or reactive) for light frame suits would only effect Scouts that stack a lot of Plate. Combine that with reduced Scan radius while Cloaked, and I think you have a couple steps in the right direction without effecting the old-school hard core Scouts at all. They should listen to you Fox and just implement these two measures to begin with and they just might realize , that's all they needed to do . Don't mess with CPU / PG or take away a light weapon slot or EQ slot either . I always thought along the lines of bigger penalty for fitting plate armor on light frame suits , so I agree on that premise . These two fixes should be enough to begin with and might prove to be all that was needed . Delta should come with a SP or infantry SP refund so that a campaign for one is not needed .
MrBlobz G I A N T 16	Posted - 2014.10.17 16:00:00 - [30] - Quote LT SHANKS wrote: Scouts get wrecked by anyone with a Bolt Pistol. This is the correct answer. (>'o')> G I A N T <('o'<) `#RollinGold`



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