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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Magnus Amadeuss
Bragian Order
Amarr Empire
1179
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Posted - 2014.10.17 15:14:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:it was in the Barbershop, and something like that is happening. Not zero, but cloaked scouts will not be able to know where everyone is in a 30m radius and pick the most vulnerable target or provide passive scans for their squad while cloaked. Cloak has been too risk-free since 1.8 and you all know how we feel about risk free playstyles.
30m is still a LOT of ground. Actually 30 meters is well over half of the volume than a CreoDron Flux Active Scanner.
Just in case that sound wrong, here is my method:
volume of a sphere is easy;
(4/3)*Pi*r^3
volume of the wedge;
integral from 0 to PI of [0.5*Pi*r^2)
Fixing EWAR
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Magnus Amadeuss
Bragian Order
Amarr Empire
1180
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Posted - 2014.10.17 15:26:00 -
[2] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:it was in the Barbershop, and something like that is happening. Not zero, but cloaked scouts will not be able to know where everyone is in a 30m radius and pick the most vulnerable target or provide passive scans for their squad while cloaked. Cloak has been too risk-free since 1.8 and you all know how we feel about risk free playstyles.
Going to THE scout thread to talk askt nerfing scouts is like going to the extremely wealthy to ask about tax codes, you are not going to get an honest assessment.
Math doesn't lie, you have the metrics, you can easily find out many correlations through math. Going to the babershop to talk about balancing scouts is like going the Spk4thaDead to ask about balancing tanks.
Fixing EWAR
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Magnus Amadeuss
Bragian Order
Amarr Empire
1180
|
Posted - 2014.10.17 15:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
Joel II X wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:it was in the Barbershop, and something like that is happening. Not zero, but cloaked scouts will not be able to know where everyone is in a 30m radius and pick the most vulnerable target or provide passive scans for their squad while cloaked. Cloak has been too risk-free since 1.8 and you all know how we feel about risk free playstyles. So you're making the cloak even more bad than it is? Basically, by equipping and using the cloak, you'd be a walking pile of uselessness. Will you guys at least buff the duration time a bit? Right now, it can't be used for anything other than penetrate a 30m area.
This is sarcasm right?
I mean what could be useful about being VERY hard to see (conditionally) and not showing up on any visual tacnets.... along with a stacking free 10% dampener?
There is a reason why you even see some people trying to shoe-horn cloaks onto non-scouts, and it isn't because they suck.
Fixing EWAR
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Magnus Amadeuss
Bragian Order
Amarr Empire
1180
|
Posted - 2014.10.17 15:57:00 -
[4] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:Magnus Amadeuss wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:it was in the Barbershop, and something like that is happening. Not zero, but cloaked scouts will not be able to know where everyone is in a 30m radius and pick the most vulnerable target or provide passive scans for their squad while cloaked. Cloak has been too risk-free since 1.8 and you all know how we feel about risk free playstyles. Going to THE scout thread to talk about nerfing scouts is like going to the extremely wealthy to ask about tax codes, you are not going to get an honest assessment. The amount of group-think in that thread is scary. Math doesn't lie, you have the metrics, you can easily find out many correlations through math. Ask the ADS community what happens when Rattati comes to you to discuss nerfing your role and you don't give objective well thought out feedback. 
IDK, it just looks like that is the only place where there is developer discussion about scouts, and that discussion is occuring with 4-5 people who all have a heavy scout bias.
Looking at general discussion, there are a LOT of people who are really unhappy with scouts, yet they are being fully left out of the discussion. Seems wrong to me.
Fixing EWAR
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Magnus Amadeuss
Bragian Order
Amarr Empire
1181
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Posted - 2014.10.17 16:28:00 -
[5] - Quote
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:Cody Sietz wrote:
I still say the way to go is to apply bonuses to the modules instead of the suit itself.
Another great point . This will encourage players to invest in the skills instead of getting a bonus for the suit and bypassing the need for investment . This will tie the player to the role more and encourage the use of mods to enhance the experience . Those who stack armor and run light assault will not have the functionality because they will not be able to use the percentages of bonuses from not having the skills / mods in usage . Couple this with Fox's two suggestions and this is a win - win and will not punish TRUE SCOUTS in the least . These three changes should be all that would be needed .
I agree but you have to be REALLY careful on how much you bonus a module. Look at scanners, they are bonused at 5% per lvl for a 25% bonus.
When a module has sucha large bonus you do one of two things:
1) make the module completely useless on non-bonused suits
or
2) Make the module overpowered on bonused suits
So proceed with caution.
Fixing EWAR
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Magnus Amadeuss
Bragian Order
Amarr Empire
1184
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Posted - 2014.10.17 17:47:00 -
[6] - Quote
Joel II X wrote:Magnus Amadeuss wrote:Joel II X wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:it was in the Barbershop, and something like that is happening. Not zero, but cloaked scouts will not be able to know where everyone is in a 30m radius and pick the most vulnerable target or provide passive scans for their squad while cloaked. Cloak has been too risk-free since 1.8 and you all know how we feel about risk free playstyles. So you're making the cloak even more bad than it is? Basically, by equipping and using the cloak, you'd be a walking pile of uselessness. Will you guys at least buff the duration time a bit? Right now, it can't be used for anything other than penetrate a 30m area. This is sarcasm right? I mean what could be useful about being VERY hard to see (conditionally) and not showing up on any visual tacnets.... along with a stacking free 10% dampener? There is a reason why you even see some people trying to shoe-horn cloaks onto non-scouts, and it isn't because they suck. Yet in only lasts 30ish seconds. As for the dampener, that's only at proto level that gets the 10% (which wouldn't do much for bigger frames) and having to sacrifice much more fitting resources. The ADV cloak is the best, yet it only offers a 5% dampening and was it 25 seconds of up time? I'm guessing you're not a scout? As for people trying to put cloaks on non-scouts, it's because they think they become invisible, when in reality the only thing that they can fit is the STD Cloak, which gives no damp and only lasts about 10 seconds or so.
I actually have a number of scout fits I use quite often, most of the time I use my scout ak.0 when I get sick and tired of getting shotgunned by invisible cloaked scouts. You know, best counter to a cloaked scout is another one.
How in the hell would you fit a proto cloak on a larger frame....?
I'm guessing that anyone who doesn't agree with your position is automatically labeled not a scout in your book? How very scout-community like. On top of that you have no idea how long any of the cloaks last for.
Did you really say *only* 30 seconds(proto is 40... do you even scout?)... like as in only enough time to cover 300 meters? Or only 30 seconds (like as in advanced) which is still enough time to cover 200+ meters?
Also, 15 seconds of cloak is more than enough for me on my basic suits.
Finally, that 5-10% of cloak makes a huge difference. A 5% cloak will get you under 20 DB (19db) with 1 damp on a cal/gal suit, that means you avoid a everything except for amarr scout w/ 2 enhancers and a proto focused scanner.
Fixing EWAR
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Magnus Amadeuss
Bragian Order
Amarr Empire
1188
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Posted - 2014.10.17 23:36:00 -
[7] - Quote
Lynn Beck wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:Daily reminder that cloak/damps has no mechanics based counter in this game.
The only counter is a completely unrealistic amount of 24/7 360x360 degree situational awareness devoted entirely to finding the scout which is magically maintained while dealing with objectives and the rest of the enemy team. On top of that the scout will probably have full wallhack vision on you and most of your teamates who arent exploiting the same broken mechanic.
Totally reasonable. You do realize that any scout who wants to stay completely unscannable will be completely unable to scan you as well - or at least, not very far. - and if they DO dedicate 2/3 damps AND 3/4 precisions, then they will have 0 tank to even fight you in. The only option is: Damp fully, unscannable, and shield tank. Pro: unscannable and have decent(but not even close to "hulking" tank) HP Con: Almost completely blind, save for heavies/assaults around corners, and are very likely to jump a railing into a HMG's LoS or otherwise equally deadly threat\
Minmatar scouts will see all undampened logis and 1 damp assault/com/sen within a 112,000 cubic meter volume, the caldari will see the same suits within a 380,000 cubic meter section(more volume than any active scanner). The gal will be @ 112,000 (better than any 100 meter active scanner) but this time the logi with only 1 damp will be seen, the amarr as well.
By default these suits, with fitting nothing... absolutely CRUSH advanced active scanners.
Lynn Beck wrote:
Damp fully, equip precisions
Pro: can see any cloaked scout nearby that isn't dedicated to complete invis, and is equally invis.
Con: NO HP to fight with, and are stuck with a short scanning radius, thus not allowing you to see any medium ranged' threat.
So, gallente can sacrifice 2 damps to be completely invisible to all non-proto-focused scanners... turn on the proto cloak and he is now invisible, while being able to see any scout undamped, or the amarr/caldari with only one damp. It still has two spare low-slots open and has the equivalent of a free enhanced armor rep always running. This means it can do all of that and still double it's HP.
Lynn Beck wrote:
Damp partially, equip range amp/precisions.
Pro: can see to a decent range, dodge most scanners, and can see most threats.
Con: Option #2 can see you perfectly fine, and can 1shot you with a SCR/SG/Flaylock.
Take the gallente scout above, throw 2 range booster on it, now you have all of the benefits from above (sans the doubling of hitpoints), no scout can see you, and you have a scan that covers 900,000 cubic meters @ 21 dB. Permascanned.
Lynn Beck wrote:
Damp partially, equip range amp/precisions, sacrifice a precision for shields.
Pro: Decent variety in equips, can see SOME suits, are partially invis, and can see to a decent enough range.
Con: visible to any specialized fit, can't scan specialized fits, and can't fight option #1/#2
Can still see every single medium suit with 1 dampener or less on within the volume mentioned before. Still has 900,000 cubic volume of permascan, still able to dodge all scans, now precision @ 26 dB (all undampened scouts, AM/Min while cloaked)
Oh speaking of volumes, the best active scanner for dB (active focused proto scanner) scans a volume of 16,000 cubic meters, and the proto flux with 200m range @ 90 degrees? ~ 100,000...
(someone check my math just to be sure, volume of a sphere is easy, (4/3)*pi*r^3, for the scanners it would be the integral from 0 to pi of pi/(4 or 6 depending on 90 or 60 degrees)*r^2)
Fixing EWAR
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Magnus Amadeuss
Bragian Order
Amarr Empire
1189
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Posted - 2014.10.18 04:46:00 -
[8] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Fox Gaden wrote:Magnus Amadeuss wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:it was in the Barbershop, and something like that is happening. Not zero, but cloaked scouts will not be able to know where everyone is in a 30m radius and pick the most vulnerable target or provide passive scans for their squad while cloaked. Cloak has been too risk-free since 1.8 and you all know how we feel about risk free playstyles. Going to THE scout thread to talk about nerfing scouts is like going to the extremely wealthy to ask about tax codes, you are not going to get an honest assessment. The amount of group-think in that thread is scary. Math doesn't lie, you have the metrics, you can easily find out many correlations through math. Ask the ADS community what happens when Rattati comes to you to discuss nerfing your role and you don't give objective well thought out feedback. No, he doesn't "discuss." He just does without discussion. Why? Because infantry wants it, and CCP doesn't care about what pilots think.
C'mon Spkr, I really don't think that is the case.
I just had a game the other day where I was trying to solo a tank(gunnlogi), I laid out... 10 proximity mines (a trap) and hit it with 2 lia dai packed AV grenades along with 1 shot from an allotek PLC before it killed me.... it ran over all 10 of the proxies mind you. I think the terrain actually glitched on that one.
I am 1-2 levels in proficiency shy of having every single AV weapon/grenade/equipment at maxxed proto and I still cannot solo good tankers or good ADS pilots. It is only when another skilled player joins the fray that we can guarantee a kill assuming the pilot doesn't bug off.
Hell I have had matches where, since the berries were using militia swarms, tanks would just chill out for a while even when under fire (situations like these make me like pulling out the proto breach forge gun.)
As an aside, I would be totally willing to back a proposal of boosting tanks to take 2-3 AV'ers to kill as long as the main turrets become AV/anti-installation only.
EWAR tool
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