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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
7699
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Posted - 2014.10.02 20:28:00 -
[1] - Quote
This is not intended to be a complete rant but just to show us that you can't look at one problem and say one single thing is the factor for something.
Please guys you have to stop this and actually look at the data, think about what factors into the data and then discuss it. I'm talking about a plethora of things CCP has screwed up with simply because they don't look at the whole picture but rather their precious infallible "data"
I'm talking about:
-Buffing the Bolt Pistol because it wasn't "used enough". Yes the Bolt Pistol needed a slight tune up but it wasn't a terrible weapon. The reason why people didn't use the Bolt Pistol right away is 1). You introduced the Weapon later in the game where people already skilled into Sidearms.2). The SMG was the god weapon so there was no need to switch.
This actually goes for a lot of weapons in the past, Scrambler Rifle in it's early days, Burst HMG
Nevertheless the Ion Pistol and Magsec did need a buff but they were legitimately bad weapons and were in different conditions as the Bolt Pistols, but with simply looking at numbers you would not be able to tell this difference, the folly of solely looking at "Data".
- The whole Vehicle vs. AV imbalance I'm going to compact the history of this fiasco the best I can. In the early days, we had Standard, Advanced and PRO tanks. Then people would cry that they needed teamwork to kill the higher tier tanks (shocker right?) so to respond with CCPs need to attract more players they needed to dumb the game down a bit. So they Nerfed Vehicles while at the Same time...buffed AV. Now, this is the about the first time that they did this so it was acceptable but we ended up seeing that AV became too powerful against vehicles which made them kinda useless. A few months later they decide to take another swing at this. The solution was to Nerf AV while at the same time BUFFING Vehicles which somehow, to their actual surprise resulted in Vehicles becoming overpowered compared to Anti-Vehicle roles. This didn't happen once throughout DUST history, not twice, not even three times in this games lifetime but around 9 times of going in this clearly obvious cycle that they could have easily escaped from. Eventually the person that was in charge of vehicles...was no longer in charge of vehicles and they decided to completely strip down vehicle diversity and simplify it to start it from scratch so they could fix it.....which was a complete failure because the problems we had back then are literally the same exact problems we have now....minus the ADS issue. But I'll leave this for now because you could write a book on how they mishandled vehicle balance 101.
- "Mu Data" That's apparently working as intended. Rattati it should never be "intended" that players squad up with each other only to see two squads on the other team and get wrecked because their friendlies are fresh out the Academy just for the sake of "equalizing Mu" numbers. This is not balanced, this is not fair to your players, this is not logical. Anyone who plays this game for long knows that squads are what win battles not individuals. It doesn't matter if you have an A-team squad with the best DUSTers if the enemy team has two decent squads that communicate with each other. This game may have slowly reverted back into a lobby shooter with shorter time to kill like you guys said you didn't want to do a few months back...but teamwork is still one of the major, critical factors on if you lose or not. Trust me Rattai and friends, I do understand the limitations in what we are dealing with, not a large player base, and regional servers to further strain the matchmaking pool but asking for the game to be balanced around squads seems like a fairly simple construct to have. Would there still be pub stomps? Yes, it's going to happen, you can't escape total victories in any game but you can do a much better job with this, I know the system is new and it takes time but my optimism for this new matchmaking system has went from cheerfully optimistic to slightly worried to completely bitter; and it's only been about a week!
-Assault Rifle nerfs in the old days This one is more towards the simpleton thinking of the DUST 514 community than CCP. A long time ago the Plasma Assault Rifle was the only General Purpose Rifle in the game and people complained that it was too good at a lot of things, even though the plasma rifle still had short range like now people complained that it was too good at what it did.....even though it was the only one that did what it did at the time so to fix this CCP decides to nerf the plasma Rifle, that's fine various variations did need a nerf but the general purpose rifle was fine. Cycles of Plasma Rifle Nerfs later and we see the Assault rifles in the pre-Delta form. Kinda useless overall and the best one [the standard assault rifle] was underperforming but there were no other general purpose rifles at the time so the community decides that the Assault Rifle is still too prominent on the field even though it was still the only assault rifle at the time and ask desperately to get the weapon nerfed. Thread after thread, the forums were filled with pleas to nerf the only general purpose rifle in the game because too many people used it. Later on the Scrambler Rifle is introduced and was pretty balanced besides some slight mechanic issues but CCP saw that "it wasn't being used as much as the Plasma Rifle" so they buffed it to what it was Pre-Delta. Even though this happened people still cried for plasma Rifle Nerfs and later on the Rail and Combat Rifle are introduced (at extremely OP levels) and everyone is completely fine with the OP rifles and completely forgets that they were just trying to nerf the now underperforming rifle. That says a lot!
Something's wrong when you regret
Things that haven't happened yet
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
7699
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Posted - 2014.10.02 20:28:00 -
[2] - Quote
-Academy Failures A long time ago CCP decided to listen to the community and improve the NPE by adding the Academy, while it was great on paper CCP managed to drop the ball on it by relying on their skewed "data" to make the Academy parameters. The Academy was designed to help new players and CCP decided that once you reach a certain WP level you could graduate from the Academy and get sent out into the glorious unforgiving world of New Eden DUST 514. They came up with the amount of WP needed to graduate by finding the Average of Players in this game and based it off of that. Which resulted in a failed experience where you only needed three battles to leave the academy. What went wrong? Here are just several factors
1). When dealing with the Averages you have to be careful because you can have the majority of players being on completely two completely different sides of the spectrum with only a few in the middle and the average will completely leave out the majority of players and focus only on the ones in the middle. I'll explain this with shapes and pigeons, lets say there are Pigeons sitting on a rectangle the majority of Pigeons are sitting on the far left and right side with only very little in the middle. If CCP were to look at this scenario they would say that the majority of Pigeons are in the middle simply because the numbers naturally even out between two extremes when you deal with Averages. Even though it's quite obvious that there are barely any pigeons in the middle, the data suggest that there are many.
2). Did not, at all take into account of AFK farming, which was a tremendous issue at the time. AFK farming is what happens in a game where you give little to no incentive to win, which is a problem DUST has always had but I digress. Going back to example 1 CCP made the Average WP based off of two (really more than two) extremes:
People who played the Games WP ratio vs. New Player who just started the game vs. Alts that are just for SP/ISK farming vs. new players that completely dumped DUST 514 and left them idle.
Take all that into account and you have the reason for Academy being a failed experiment for months and it's still too low if you ask me. They took the averages of the Community and based the Academy Criteria off of skewed data.
I could go on but these are some of the examples that really bite at my knickers.
I've been here since the beginning and I'm just tired of seeing CCP and the Community make similar mistakes and assumptions based off the same failed logic patterns time after time after time... You can't fix the Community, the majority of us are unsalvageable but CCP you aren't and you can and should learn to not look at things in a black and white light like you guys have done so disturbingly frequently.
The point of this thread is just to say that when you're dealing with Statistics / data it is never black and white and there will never be one or two simple factors that act out a full equation. There are a multitude of factors to take into considerations but time after time CCP and the community have failed to realise this simple common knowledge. I feel like you guys do know this but something just looses contact along the way.
With all that being said, CCP Rattati, you and your team are doing a thousand times better than the previous developers have and I can honestly say that had you been here in the beginning, DUST would have been a huge success because having a DEV that actually plays his own game and having some common gaming logic sense is so much more important than some guy who's some "highly trained", Ex-EA employee but is dealing with a product he has no clue about and is only concerned about the bottom line.
Developers, GMs, thank you for your time if you managed to read through this, the purpose of this wasn't just a rant but a concern from a very loyal customer who believes greatly in your product. In the age of Lobby Shooters, low skill requirements and constant DLCs that have more content than the game itself, this FPS is a humongous breath of fresh air compared to the generic trash FPS shooters out there. I just don't want it to fail....well Legion to fail I guess because DUST is on it's way out but I digress! Thank you guys.
Something's wrong when you regret
Things that haven't happened yet
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
17970
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Posted - 2014.10.02 20:40:00 -
[3] - Quote
1. The bolt pistol:
I agree. The bolt pistol was an unremarkable weapon pre-Delta, but it was by no means a bad one. Underused, yes - but not so much that it required such a large series of buffs. Moody has an excellent video extolling the virtues of the pre-Delta bolt pistol. It was an adequate weapon.
A small buff might have been in order. A 70% damage buff and a much increased headshot multiplier, even if the clip size was reduced, does not count as a small buff. That's insane. There are very, very few weapons which have been buffed by that much, if any. I can't recall any others off the top of my head apart from perhaps the Chromosome TAR to the Uprising TAR.
2. Regarding Mu data and squads:
Again, I completely agree. Squads make or break battles. They have a -huge- effect on the tide of battle. A squad of militiaberries who know what they're doing can quite happily take solo proto players on. I'm inclined to be tolerant of this system, though. I hope it'll be iterated on and Rattati has shown a heartening willingness to listen to players about this sort of thing.
3. Assault rifles:
That episode was hilarious. I think they're okayish now, but it still amazes me that 'AR 514' became 'balanced' overnight because even more powerful rifles were introduced.
4. Academy and the NPE:
The NPE... is a complex beast.
It is, IMO, the single most important thing to DUST to be iterated on but one of the more difficult ones to get right. The Academy always seemed like a crude measure. It's something and that's great, but it's had its own series of problems and it's not sufficient on its own.
The little steps like skillbooks being bought for new players are nice, but more really needs to be done. It's a shame there don't seem to be the resources to deal with it.
DUST has a habit of overcomplicating itself for new players. Dropsuit command 5 is a farce of game design and whoever designed features like that in the skill tree is, frankly, an idiot.
I'm probably going to start ranting about this if I spend too long on this post, though, so I'm going to cut it short there and go think of some little things that can be done for the poor newbies.
5. Regarding thinking about the reasoning behind statistics:
So much yes. If there is one thing to take away from this post, it's that there is a reason for statistics. Rattati is doing a fine job finding where problems are with statistics, but there could be some... refinement of what's done about it. Give the man credit where it's due though - he's apparently smarter than the entire previous game design team put together and has done more for balance in a couple of months than they did in years.
TL;DR: +1
The forums have ruined me.
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Cheydinhal Guard
Abandoned Privilege Top Men.
219
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Posted - 2014.10.02 20:49:00 -
[4] - Quote
I agree with yu on the sidearms, but I still don't understand why the ScP (aside from the Breach variant) took such a huge damage nerf for no absolute reason. Prior to Delta, I seldom saw anyone with an ScP aside from MLT blueberries. The ScP had already received a RoF nerf a while back. It should've been kept that way. Now it's practically nothing but an Amarr Ion pistol.
I can wait an entire hour in about 10 minutes. Impressive, i know.
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Atiim
12672
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Posted - 2014.10.02 20:50:00 -
[5] - Quote
Damn these Gallenteans and their giant walls of text.
Someone needs to confiscate their keyboards.
The 1st Matari Commando
-HAND
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege Top Men.
3893
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Posted - 2014.10.02 20:53:00 -
[6] - Quote
I can't fathom reversing the awesome that is the new matchmaking. It's provided the most balanced matches in years. No longer does seeing a Fatal Absolution squad on the other team mean I might as well leave match, because it's going to be a stomp.
If you are a really high Mu squad, and hence get matchmade with some newbies, and hence, have an actual "tough fight" instead of an easy stomp, that is a good thing. You should never go into a match assured of victory. If you want a game mode that is doing less to make for even matches, try FacWar. :D
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
17970
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Posted - 2014.10.02 20:53:00 -
[7] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Damn these Gallenteans and their giant walls of text.
Someone needs to confiscate their keyboards.
It's funny that the Caldari should have a reputation for being 'industrious' when they post lazy comments like this.
Soraya Xel wrote:I can't fathom reversing the awesome that is the new matchmaking. It's provided the most balanced matches in years. No longer does seeing a Fatal Absolution squad on the other team mean I might as well leave match, because it's going to be a stomp.
If you are a really high Mu squad, and hence get matchmade with some newbies, and hence, have an actual "tough fight" instead of an easy stomp, that is a good thing. You should never go into a match assured of victory. If you want a game mode that is doing less to make for even matches, try FacWar. :D
It's better than it was, but it's not perfect.
There are still matches where you have ludicrously stacked odds. Even on my alts with low mu scores I sometimes end up against a double squad on the other team with only solo players on mine.
We now have the basis of a solid matchmaker. There are still problems with it, though, but I suspect Rattati will build on that.
The forums have ruined me.
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
7703
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Posted - 2014.10.02 21:00:00 -
[8] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:I can't fathom reversing the awesome that is the new matchmaking. It's provided the most balanced matches in years. No longer does seeing a Fatal Absolution squad on the other team mean I might as well leave match, because it's going to be a stomp.
If you are a really high Mu squad, and hence get matchmade with some newbies, and hence, have an actual "tough fight" instead of an easy stomp, that is a good thing. You should never go into a match assured of victory. If you want a game mode that is doing less to make for even matches, try FacWar. :D
You're foolish if you wish to assume that I want a pubstomp simply because of my tag. And you're on the CPM? get out of here. My problem is that when squading with my teammates it results in our team being the only one to push objectives while everybody else runs and hides. You seriously find this acceptable? Or are your past biases getting in the way here since you wish to bring up my corp?
I've only wanted good battles and balance in this game, I haven't ever even spec'd into Flavor of the Month sticking only to Gallente themed weaponry as my persona, even if that meant I had to use ***** weapons so how dare you even have the audacity to accuse me of wanting easy mode matches solely off my tag.
Something's wrong when you regret
Things that haven't happened yet
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
7703
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Posted - 2014.10.02 21:05:00 -
[9] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Damn these Gallenteans and their giant walls of text.
Someone needs to confiscate their keyboards. They can take our Keyboards, but they will never take our FREEDOM!
Something's wrong when you regret
Things that haven't happened yet
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Atiim
12674
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Posted - 2014.10.02 21:13:00 -
[10] - Quote
@"V/AV Balance"
When you think about it, Vehicles these days aren't as strong as they were back then, they only seem stronger to to AV weapons having a higher TTK
Before Uprising 1.7, my Madrugar had approximately 7000 eHP, and had two 25% hardeners (which had very quick downtimes), along with an Efficient Repairer which had about 415HP/pulse.
Now, my Madrugar has 5200 eHP, and 200HP/s, and only 1 25% hardener. I don't remember the DPS of the turrets, but in a 1v1 I think we all know which HAV build would win.
Other than that, I completely agree. Many of the V/AV problems could have easily been avoided by assessing the changes thoroughly before implementing them.
@"Mu"
The main problem with players having friendlies on their team is the fact that the Academy lasts all of 20min for anyone with even the slightest bit of experience in FPS games (or games in general, really).
Now that the starting ISK has been reduced, I think the duration that players are in the Academy should be increased. It won't completely fix the NPE, but it'd be a lot better than nothing.
@"Assault Rifles"
Despite being the "only general purpose riffle", it's TTK was to low compared to other weapons in the game (a problem which would be magnified even further with the introduction of Combat and Rail Rifles).
The 1st Matari Commando
-HAND
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CommanderBolt
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
1858
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Posted - 2014.10.02 21:14:00 -
[11] - Quote
Sgt Kirk wrote:
Developers, GMs, thank you for your time if you managed to read through this, the purpose of this wasn't just a rant but a concern from a very loyal customer who believes greatly in your product. In the age of Lobby Shooters, low skill requirements and constant DLCs that have more content than the game itself, this FPS is a humongous breath of fresh air compared to the generic trash FPS shooters out there. I just don't want it to fail....well Legion to fail I guess because DUST is on it's way out but I digress! Thank you guys.
I can't express my agreement with this portion of your write up enough.
DUST is still a breath of fresh air even years after the fact and on the ageing PS3 of all things. It is seeming to be like a distant memory now but there was a time when even the so called 'big developers' of the gaming world would truly come up with innovative, fun, challenging and fresh games.
"Also I think knives are a good idea, big f**k-off shiny ones"
"Guns for show, Knives for a pro"
MY LIFE FOR AIUR!
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege Top Men.
3894
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Posted - 2014.10.02 22:01:00 -
[12] - Quote
Sgt Kirk wrote:You're foolish if you wish to assume that I want a pubstomp simply because of my tag. And you're on the CPM? get out of here. My problem is that when squading with my teammates it results in our team being the only one to push objectives while everybody else runs and hides. You seriously find this acceptable? Or are your past biases getting in the way here since you wish to bring up my corp?
My point isn't to insult your corp, if anything it's a complement. My point is, that if an FA squad is on one side, you can expect the other side to have more of the better players of the remaining 26 people in the room, because it's needed to compensate for your team's abilities. If you guys are the best in the room, you are going to have to carry your team. Because your Mu score says you can.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
17971
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Posted - 2014.10.02 22:12:00 -
[13] - Quote
The thing about that, though, Soraya, is that if those players are on equal footing with the players composing the squad but are solo, the squadded players have a huge advantage.
I understand the matchmaker tries to compensate for that to some extent - but I don't think its enough. The squad advantage is a little under-rated in terms of mu - I'm getting a lot of matches where it's squadstomps but players of similar ability.
The forums have ruined me.
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege Top Men.
3894
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Posted - 2014.10.02 22:22:00 -
[14] - Quote
So are you suggesting that a modifier should rank the Mu of squads higher then? Because Sgt Kirk's post above made me think he was unhappy his squad was being teamed up with newberries. Which would happen even more if having a full squad raised your Mu higher.
Maybe you are both on completely different sides of the debate, or I don't understand one of you. Please clarify.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Alena Ventrallis
Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo
1863
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Posted - 2014.10.02 22:24:00 -
[15] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Sgt Kirk wrote:You're foolish if you wish to assume that I want a pubstomp simply because of my tag. And you're on the CPM? get out of here. My problem is that when squading with my teammates it results in our team being the only one to push objectives while everybody else runs and hides. You seriously find this acceptable? Or are your past biases getting in the way here since you wish to bring up my corp? My point isn't to insult your corp, if anything it's a complement. My point is, that if an FA squad is on one side, you can expect the other side to have more of the better players of the remaining 26 people in the room, because it's needed to compensate for your team's abilities. If you guys are the best in the room, you are going to have to carry your team. Because your Mu score says you can. Then why am I running into a squad of fatal absolution and a squad of molon labe on one side and not a single squad on the other? The Mu system is pitifully easy to fool, all I need do is afk to lower it then stomp face.
Listen to my muscle memory
Contemplate what I've been clinging to
Forty-six and two ahead of me
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege Top Men.
3894
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Posted - 2014.10.02 22:27:00 -
[16] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:Then why am I running into a squad of fatal absolution and a squad of molon labe on one side and not a single squad on the other? The Mu system is pitifully easy to fool, all I need do is afk to lower it then stomp face.
Are you sending scoreboard screenshots of those to CCP Rattati? If the Mu system is failing, particularly in that way, definitely get him those. He'll see what's up with how the match was calculated.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Vell0cet
Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo
2321
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Posted - 2014.10.02 22:50:00 -
[17] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:...The Mu system is pitifully easy to fool, all I need do is afk to lower it then stomp face. We don't know how Mu is calculated. If Rattati followed some of our suggestions of using WP/Death (excluding suicides and teamkills) then it would be nearly impossible to manipulate short of intentionally running into enemy fire and dying over and over (sound like fun?).
Even if he stuck with the original proposal of win/loss, he said this was over the aggregate of the character's life. This means you'd have to do a LOT of AFKing to lower your Mu on a high SP character.
Best PvE idea ever!
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Reign Omega
Ghosts of Dawn General Tso's Alliance
920
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Posted - 2014.10.02 23:05:00 -
[18] - Quote
Side note, wtf is mu?
Mark a$$ tricks, and bags of dicks....
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
17022
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Posted - 2014.10.02 23:22:00 -
[19] - Quote
Thank you for a level headed analytics of pain points.
CPM should strive to help resolve some of the issues but some issues are immensely daunting because of the lack of tools in the toolbox
Ion Pistol should be very fixable and it is probably going to dominate the post delta scene to accompany what few or little changes being planned for Echo. I did fail my part because I didn't do a through enough simulation with the bolt pistol (and I suck with it) to see the potential overbuff to reign it back. Hopefully the community can help us adjust its knobs down to get it to that nice niche goal of a marksman's pistol you want to bring to a shooting target competition.
MU changes are not perfect, they are however better than left as was. If you feel a match was badly placed please do not hesitate to snap of the end of match and send it into CCP Snorri's email. I do know squads break the calculations by a long shot and I know that players who understand how their own mu is calculated can do what is commonly known as smurfing even if it means wrecking their own wp/m stats.
The plasma rifles are at the cusp of being just right, not enough, and op. So far there has been adjustments to it nearly every hotfix so far and its been an odd dance but I hope it continues until the plasma rifle feels 'just right' SCR is a similarly odd place right behind it (not the ACR) in terms of not doing enough and change one number and it becomes the murderer of teams. This is not like the bolt pistol where that is a culmination of buffs amounting to the what the fish bbq it does now. Either way continued adjustments should be going until fixed.
NPE is by itself the worst beast to deal with as I said earlier. The community can continue to try to help us solve and alleviate that problem with the hotfixes but there is only so much we can do. Skill Garbage as I like to call it should be stomped out with a vengeance. Better clarity of every skill category's existence needs to be brought into the spot light and players need a stronger sense of agency over how to grow their character. Overall the task is daunting and tireless and will always be on our minds when it the chance to improve upon it comes.
CPM 1
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior
\\= Prototype Sniper Rifles =// Unlocked
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Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui
Kyoudai Furinkazan
1233
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Posted - 2014.10.03 00:19:00 -
[20] - Quote
No knock to past CPM's but I like the crew that's in place right now and if you notice , they are not ghosts and they respond and communicate with the community as a whole .
I appreciate that .
I know that no one was knocking the CPM but I just felt that I had to say that .
The OP has made some valid points though and I was wondering why the academy was changed to the point of taking unallocated points from the beginners .
Yes they start one off in certain parts of the skill tree but they took ISK's and skill points and I was just wondering why ?
Delta should come with a SP or infantry SP refund so that a campaign for one is not needed .
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Leanna Boghin
Paradox Pride
471
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Posted - 2014.10.03 00:30:00 -
[21] - Quote
The nerfs and buffs in this game arent just about "balancing" even though thats the only reason CCP will give anyone for nerfing and buffing weapons the way they do. They actually have an agenda (which i cant really blame them) See they sell weapons and gear in the market for Aurum and when a certain weapon isnt getting much use but they want to make money off of it they buff the weapon in such a way as to make it more powerful sothat more and more people will want to use it. And since most people havent bothered to spec into that particular weapon thats been buffed at the time there is a good chance that people will buy aurum versions. I mean look what happened in the market after tank spamming began. They took advantage and started selling Aurum AV suits and tanks more so than they ever did. Its a typical money making ploy that most game companies will utilize. Another reason CCP does the nerfs and buffs is to gather data for legion. Of course CCP wont admit to it (simply because no one would spend money on a game they know is just a beta for another game) but all the evidence is there. Ever since the announcement of Legion they have taken a great interest in "improving" and "balancing" Dust when in fact its nothing more than a ploy to test variables for Legion. But like i said CCP is too much of a coward to admit anything i just stated. So in a year or two when they get tired of using Dust as a beta and searching the dust couches for change then and only then will they finally admit to it and then i can say i told you so.
I snipe in the redline because i know it pisses you off
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege Top Men.
3903
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Posted - 2014.10.03 00:32:00 -
[22] - Quote
Leanna Boghin wrote:The nerfs and buffs in this game arent just about "balancing" even though thats the only reason CCP will give anyone for nerfing and buffing weapons the way they do. They actually have an agenda (which i cant really blame them) See they sell weapons and gear in the market for Aurum and when a certain weapon isnt getting much use but they want to make money off of it they buff the weapon in such a way as to make it more powerful sothat more and more people will want to use it.
This is complete and utter bull. Period.
Please pick up your complimentary tin foil hat from CEOPyrex. He has many.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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CCP Rattati
C C P C C P Alliance
8378
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Posted - 2014.10.03 00:36:00 -
[23] - Quote
Thank you for the feedback and since most of your points were non-ranty and written with good intentions, I can address most of them. That is not to say I agree with them, but I will explain why.
1) Statistics - You claim that we are just using usage data to warrant the change to the bolt pistol and I really don't like when people claim something without data to back it up. I have explained before that we use multiple methods, including Kills per Spawn per Weapon (per dropsuit), basically K/D per weapon. Where is your statement coming from, where are the facts? The CPM could tell you that we worked together on a detailed spreadsheet with all the sidearms, Zatara took lead on this one as the others had taken leads on different aspects of Delta. Together we collected community feedback, data and the CPM experience to rank all the sidearms into categories of needs buff/nerf, methods to do so and reasoning.
2) The final method of balancing the sidearms was also very clear, we established the weapon everyone knew, the SMG as the cornerstone of sidearms and created a range vs dps, and comparable dmg/clip and clips/ammo ratios nased completely around the DMG. We did not nerf it even though it was the most used weapon, but based the whole strategy around getting all the sidearms to a similar efficiency, meaning most got buffed (a lot) and a few got nerfed slightly. By changing these efficiencies, we may later see that the usage goes up, but usage is only an indicator of UP/OP.
3) Just the fact that we immediately tweaked Hotfix Delta with a balancing hotfix a week later, should speak for itself. Our data showed that the BP was OP, so we reduced ROF and if that isn't enough, we will keep working on it.
4) Please send me data on broken Teambuilding to [email protected]. I have yet to see a concrete example of unwarranted 2 stacked squads on one side and newberries on the other, and my inbox is full of screenshots from players. Yes, stomps happen, but they happen everywhere, even in the EPL, NBA and the NFL. When a 6 man squad from the best PC corp hits its stride, very few aside from a similar squad will stand a chance. Other than that, I don't get your point about Teambuilding, are you against having more even teams or? You can go play FW if you want to to try your luck, that feature doesn't use the new Teambuilder.
5) To whomever said it, good luck on manipulating the Mu and have lots of fun AFKing to do so. To me, even contemplating it is unfathomable.
6) New Player experience, in the four hotfixes we haven't ben able to change the "early mission system", but we have granted better starter fits, created tons of militia weapons," assisted" with skill selection (in fact gave 3 times more ISK than before through Skillbooks), and made the Academy a more "fun" place, so extending it (twice, from 2400 to 5000 in Delta) has been sown slowly and purposefully. Retention has never been higher than it is now. Consistently getting a 1000 WP per battle, means you completely get the game, fitting and progression.
7) Assault Rifles, again, are you referencing old ways, we can't change that, only how we work now. I think the 3 Tuning Rifles threads demonstrate that we are doing things differently. Again, the claim that we are using usage data or forum QQ to balance which is plainly not true.
8) V/AV, this is a longer standing issue. Let's just work together to make it fun for everyone.
On your final assessment, I cannot agree with you more. DUST 514 is my favorite game and it keeps getting better.
Thanks again for the feedback!
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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TH1EFOFSOuLS
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
39
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Posted - 2014.10.03 00:46:00 -
[24] - Quote
Quote:8) V/AV, this is a longer standing issue. Let's just work together to make it fun for everyone.
]
You need to get people or at least motivate them to spec into their own vehicles as I always say nothing kills a tank better then a tank or a drop ship. One guy should not force me off a point immediately after I get their just because he is shooting down on me with a bunch of SP just so I can run away. No one tanks or even dropships anymore so if a respect to occur im sure allot of people would be happy to put their SP into proto stomping weapons like everyone else just letting you know. |
Viktor Hadah Jr
Negative-Impact Gentlemen's.Club
5266
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Posted - 2014.10.03 00:49:00 -
[25] - Quote
TH1EFOFSOuLS wrote:Quote:8) V/AV, this is a longer standing issue. Let's just work together to make it fun for everyone. ] You need to get people or at least motivate them to spec into their own vehicles as I always say nothing kills a tank better then a tank or a drop ship. One guy should not force me off a point immediately after I get their just because he is shooting down on me with a bunch of SP just so I can run away. No one tanks or even dropships anymore so if a respect to occur im sure allot of people would be happy to put their SP into proto stomping weapons like everyone else just letting you know. Are you taking about dropships in this sentence because thats how it was for many patches, and not just me one dropship can destroy entire squads by himself.
EVE 21 Day Trial
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Leanna Boghin
Paradox Pride
472
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Posted - 2014.10.03 01:01:00 -
[26] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Thank you for the feedback and since most of your points were non-ranty and written with good intentions, I can address most of them. That is not to say I agree with them, but I will explain why. 1) Statistics - You claim that we are just using usage data to warrant the change to the bolt pistol and I really don't like when people claim something without data to back it up. I have explained before that we use multiple methods, including Kills per Spawn per Weapon (per dropsuit), basically K/D per weapon. Where is your statement coming from, where are the facts? The CPM could tell you that we worked together on a detailed spreadsheet with all the sidearms, Zatara took lead on this one as the others had taken leads on different aspects of Delta. Together we collected community feedback, data and the CPM experience to rank all the sidearms into categories of needs buff/nerf, methods to do so and reasoning. 2) The final method of balancing the sidearms was also very clear, we established the weapon everyone knew, the SMG as the cornerstone of sidearms and created a range vs dps, and comparable dmg/clip and clips/ammo ratios based completely around the SMG. We did not nerf it even though it was the most used weapon, but based the whole strategy around getting all the sidearms to a similar efficiency, meaning most got buffed (a lot) and a few got nerfed slightly. By changing these efficiencies, we may later see that the usage goes up, but usage is only an indicator of UP/OP. 3) Just the fact that we immediately tweaked Hotfix Delta with a balancing hotfix a week later, should speak for itself. Our data showed that the BP was OP, so we reduced ROF and if that isn't enough, we will keep working on it. 4) Please send me data on broken Teambuilding to [email protected]. I have yet to see a concrete example of unwarranted 2 stacked squads on one side and newberries on the other, and my inbox is full of screenshots from players. Yes, stomps happen, but they happen everywhere, even in the EPL, NBA and the NFL. When a 6 man squad from the best PC corp hits its stride, very few aside from a similar squad will stand a chance. Other than that, I don't get your point about Teambuilding, are you against having more even teams or? You can go play FW if you want to to try your luck, that feature doesn't use the new Teambuilder. 5) To whomever said it, good luck on manipulating the Mu and have lots of fun AFKing to do so. To me, even contemplating it is unfathomable. 6) New Player experience, in the four hotfixes we haven't ben able to change the "early mission system", but we have granted better starter fits, created tons of militia weapons," assisted" with skill selection (in fact gave 3 times more ISK than before through Skillbooks), and made the Academy a more "fun" place, so extending it (twice, from 2400 to 5000 in Delta) has been sown slowly and purposefully. Retention has never been higher than it is now. Consistently getting a 1000 WP per battle, means you completely get the game, fitting and progression. 7) Assault Rifles, again, are you referencing old ways, we can't change that, only how we work now. I think the 3 Tuning Rifles threads demonstrate that we are doing things differently. Again, the claim that we are using usage data or forum QQ to balance which is plainly not true. 8) V/AV, this is a longer standing issue. Let's just work together to make it fun for everyone. On your final assessment, I cannot agree with you more. DUST 514 is my favorite game and it keeps getting better. Thanks again for the feedback! 1) Show us your findings. You claim you do all this hard work yet you never show us anything but the end result. Which might i remind you usually ends up being a weapon too over powered or too nerfed.
2) The fact that you based your data on a smg was your failing right there. Never base your data gatherin g on a weapon or a piece of gear that is completely different from another that you are trying to "balance" because the end result will be very clear. A failure
3) If you want to stop the whining of the stomping then i suggest a respec. That way those that currently cant stomp will be able to (simply cause of misplaced skill points we all know that every noob puts all their skills every where instead of on just one thing) making things more balanced than they ever have been. Think about it for a minute and you will see that what i say is completely feasible.
and 4) It figures you wouldnt comment about my statement i made about money problems which leads me to believe that i am more right on target than i have ever been. Its a same and i agree the game is great if not dying from failed mechanics and unnecessary nerfs and buffs to weapons that where clearly working very well.
Hide it if you like but the CPMs talking to only a few people to get their data just isnt clearly enough to improve the game. I think its high time you direct them to each take a part and make a survey that you can then email to at least the people that are subscribed to your emails so that certain questions can be answered truthfully and discreetly. I believe that may be the only TRUE way to gather the data you need to "balance" this game. And if you dont want to do the survey idea then i bed the question as to why not? Sure your stretched thin but thats why i suggest you have the CPM draw up a survey with a little comment section below it to leave any comments they thought the CPMs might have left out. And plenty of sites will let you set up free surveys so its wouldnt be out of the realm of possibilities and certainly wont take any precious money from you.
And until CCP and its developers is willing to do everything in their power to improve the game then i cant sit by and not think that you arent trying to run the game into the ground as nothing more than a beta for another game for PC.
I snipe in the redline because i know it pisses you off
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Leanna Boghin
Paradox Pride
472
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Posted - 2014.10.03 01:08:00 -
[27] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Leanna Boghin wrote:The nerfs and buffs in this game arent just about "balancing" even though thats the only reason CCP will give anyone for nerfing and buffing weapons the way they do. They actually have an agenda (which i cant really blame them) See they sell weapons and gear in the market for Aurum and when a certain weapon isnt getting much use but they want to make money off of it they buff the weapon in such a way as to make it more powerful sothat more and more people will want to use it. This is complete and utter bull. Period. Please pick up your complimentary tin foil hat from CEOPyrex. He has many. Actually its not bull and it isnt a conspiracy its just simple business. And if i ran a game I would do the same thing they are doing. I dont blame them but it is sad to see thats how the gaming industry has moved since the days of mario and zelda. You can kiss the butts of every CCP employee all you want it wont change the fact that this is how gaming industry is in this day and age. And most people like yourself want to believe that the gaming companies actually want more than money but money is really the only thing that drives a game company anymore. Believe me if there wasnt money in gaming there would be no games. So yeah call it bullshit or a conspiracy all you want its simple business tactics and thats just how they do things. They also wont ever admit to it because of the bad PR they would gain. And CCP has enough bad PR circling the gaming community as it is to want to collect anymore.
I snipe in the redline because i know it pisses you off
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege Top Men.
3907
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Posted - 2014.10.03 02:02:00 -
[28] - Quote
Leanna Boghin wrote:Soraya Xel wrote:Leanna Boghin wrote:The nerfs and buffs in this game arent just about "balancing" even though thats the only reason CCP will give anyone for nerfing and buffing weapons the way they do. They actually have an agenda (which i cant really blame them) See they sell weapons and gear in the market for Aurum and when a certain weapon isnt getting much use but they want to make money off of it they buff the weapon in such a way as to make it more powerful sothat more and more people will want to use it. This is complete and utter bull. Period. Please pick up your complimentary tin foil hat from CEOPyrex. He has many. Actually its not bull and it isnt a conspiracy its just simple business. And if i ran a game I would do the same thing they are doing. I dont blame them but it is sad to see thats how the gaming industry has moved since the days of mario and zelda. You can kiss the butts of every CCP employee all you want it wont change the fact that this is how gaming industry is in this day and age. And most people like yourself want to believe that the gaming companies actually want more than money but money is really the only thing that drives a game company anymore. Believe me if there wasnt money in gaming there would be no games. So yeah call it bullshit or a conspiracy all you want its simple business tactics and thats just how they do things. They also wont ever admit to it because of the bad PR they would gain. And CCP has enough bad PR circling the gaming community as it is to want to collect anymore.
Yeah, your level of tin foil is really up there. Money has nothing to do with the balance changes, except perhaps that a better game generally makes more money.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Leanna Boghin
Paradox Pride
473
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Posted - 2014.10.03 02:09:00 -
[29] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Leanna Boghin wrote:Soraya Xel wrote:Leanna Boghin wrote:The nerfs and buffs in this game arent just about "balancing" even though thats the only reason CCP will give anyone for nerfing and buffing weapons the way they do. They actually have an agenda (which i cant really blame them) See they sell weapons and gear in the market for Aurum and when a certain weapon isnt getting much use but they want to make money off of it they buff the weapon in such a way as to make it more powerful sothat more and more people will want to use it. This is complete and utter bull. Period. Please pick up your complimentary tin foil hat from CEOPyrex. He has many. Actually its not bull and it isnt a conspiracy its just simple business. And if i ran a game I would do the same thing they are doing. I dont blame them but it is sad to see thats how the gaming industry has moved since the days of mario and zelda. You can kiss the butts of every CCP employee all you want it wont change the fact that this is how gaming industry is in this day and age. And most people like yourself want to believe that the gaming companies actually want more than money but money is really the only thing that drives a game company anymore. Believe me if there wasnt money in gaming there would be no games. So yeah call it bullshit or a conspiracy all you want its simple business tactics and thats just how they do things. They also wont ever admit to it because of the bad PR they would gain. And CCP has enough bad PR circling the gaming community as it is to want to collect anymore. Yeah, your level of tin foil is really up there. Money has nothing to do with the balance changes, except perhaps that a better game generally makes more money. If you are going to comment and make wild accussations claiming that im some conspiracy theorist then how about you offer a reason as to why its bullshit of what im saying rather than being rude. Oh thats right because you dont have a reason -_- seriously until you can offer a reason as to why im sooo wrong your insults go on deaf ears (or eyes in this case)
I snipe in the redline because i know it pisses you off
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Logical Logi
Immortal Guides
13
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Posted - 2014.10.03 02:10:00 -
[30] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Thank you for the feedback and since most of your points were non-ranty and written with good intentions, I can address most of them. That is not to say I agree with them, but I will explain why. 1) Statistics - You claim that we are just using usage data to warrant the change to the bolt pistol and I really don't like when people claim something without data to back it up. I have explained before that we use multiple methods, including Kills per Spawn per Weapon (per dropsuit), basically K/D per weapon. Where is your statement coming from, where are the facts? The CPM could tell you that we worked together on a detailed spreadsheet with all the sidearms, Zatara took lead on this one as the others had taken leads on different aspects of Delta. Together we collected community feedback, data and the CPM experience to rank all the sidearms into categories of needs buff/nerf, methods to do so and reasoning. 2) The final method of balancing the sidearms was also very clear, we established the weapon everyone knew, the SMG as the cornerstone of sidearms and created a range vs dps, and comparable dmg/clip and clips/ammo ratios based completely around the SMG. We did not nerf it even though it was the most used weapon, but based the whole strategy around getting all the sidearms to a similar efficiency, meaning most got buffed (a lot) and a few got nerfed slightly. By changing these efficiencies, we may later see that the usage goes up, but usage is only an indicator of UP/OP. 3) Just the fact that we immediately tweaked Hotfix Delta with a balancing hotfix a week later, should speak for itself. Our data showed that the BP was OP, so we reduced ROF and if that isn't enough, we will keep working on it. 4) Please send me data on broken Teambuilding to [email protected]. I have yet to see a concrete example of unwarranted 2 stacked squads on one side and newberries on the other, and my inbox is full of screenshots from players. Yes, stomps happen, but they happen everywhere, even in the EPL, NBA and the NFL. When a 6 man squad from the best PC corp hits its stride, very few aside from a similar squad will stand a chance. Other than that, I don't get your point about Teambuilding, are you against having more even teams or? You can go play FW if you want to to try your luck, that feature doesn't use the new Teambuilder. 5) To whomever said it, good luck on manipulating the Mu and have lots of fun AFKing to do so. To me, even contemplating it is unfathomable. 6) New Player experience, in the four hotfixes we haven't ben able to change the "early mission system", but we have granted better starter fits, created tons of militia weapons," assisted" with skill selection (in fact gave 3 times more ISK than before through Skillbooks), and made the Academy a more "fun" place, so extending it (twice, from 2400 to 5000 in Delta) has been done slowly and purposefully. Retention has never been higher than it is now. Consistently getting a 1000 WP per battle, means you completely get the game, fitting and progression. 7) Assault Rifles, again, are you referencing old ways, we can't change that, only how we work now. I think the 3 Tuning Rifles threads demonstrate that we are doing things differently. Again, the claim that we are using usage data or forum QQ to balance which is plainly not true. 8) V/AV, this is a longer standing issue. Let's just work together to make it fun for everyone. On your final assessment, I cannot agree with you more. DUST 514 is my favorite game and it keeps getting better. Thanks again for the feedback! I may have cried once or twice when Delta dropped but then I looked in the eyes of the CPM and the AV community and said "You may have won Delta, but when Echo comes CCP will follow the normal pattern of making Vehicles so OP". Although maybe after a couple Hotfixes they will destroy the Incubus, Python, Madrugar, Gunnlogi, Methana, Saga, Saga || and promise to remake them more balanced than ever. Then quit updating the game...
Director of Planetary Operations and General recruitment for Immortal Guides.
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