DUST Search - CCP Logic, guys please look at yourselves.

Adipem Nothi wrote:

Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:

They care and that's why they rant and are so passionate .

Indeed, we are passionate. But when we rant, we do so because (1) we lack sense or (2) we lack a solution. Take, for example, Kirk on the early Uprising Assault Rifle ...

Fun Facts
The AR dominated every killfeed of every battle, every day for 6+ months.
The AR consistently outperformed laser rifles (and everything else) at range.
The AR consistently outperformed the HMG (and everything else) up close.

Does Kirk lack sense?
Kirk maintains that everything was fine. The only real problem was with the Community, who failed to understand why one weapon should dominate gameplay on such extraordinary and prolonged scale. It was necessary and appropriate for the Gallente Fine Rifle to be the very best at all things, including but not limited to aiming itself. It was unnecessary and inappropriate for CCP to touch the Finest of Fine Rifles. Kirk's bias has overruled his sense. So Kirk rants.

Or does Kirk lack a solution?
Kirk maintains that while everything was fine with the Gallente Fine Rifle, there was a significant problem with comparative performance of every other weapon in the game. Kirk opposes any adjustment to the Finest of Fine Rifles, but at the same time recognizes that rebalancing all else against the AR would entail an extremely complex, error-prone and time-consuming effort. Something has to be done, but he can't think of what to do. Kirk lacks a solution. So Kirk rants.

So which bin do we put Kirk in?
Read the following rant, and decide for yourself:

Sgt Kirk wrote:

Assault Rifle nerfs in the old days This one is more towards the simpleton thinking of the DUST 514 community than CCP. A long time ago the Plasma Assault Rifle was the only General Purpose Rifle in the game and people complained that it was too good at a lot of things, even though the plasma rifle still had short range like now people complained that it was too good at what it did.....even though it was the only one that did what it did at the time so to fix this CCP decides to nerf the plasma Rifle, that's fine various variations did need a nerf but the general purpose rifle was fine. Cycles of Plasma Rifle Nerfs later and we see the Assault rifles in the pre-Delta form. Kinda useless overall and the best one [the standard assault rifle] was underperforming but there were no other general purpose rifles at the time so the community decides that the Assault Rifle is still too prominent on the field even though it was still the only assault rifle at the time and ask desperately to get the weapon nerfed. Thread after thread, the forums were filled with pleas to nerf the only general purpose rifle in the game because too many people used it.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 7699	Posted - 2014.10.02 20:28:00 - [1] - Quote This is not intended to be a complete rant but just to show us that you can't look at one problem and say one single thing is the factor for something. Please guys you have to stop this and actually look at the data, think about what factors into the data and then discuss it. I'm talking about a plethora of things CCP has screwed up with simply because they don't look at the whole picture but rather their precious infallible "data" I'm talking about: -Buffing the Bolt Pistol because it wasn't "used enough". Yes the Bolt Pistol needed a slight tune up but it wasn't a terrible weapon. The reason why people didn't use the Bolt Pistol right away is 1). You introduced the Weapon later in the game where people already skilled into Sidearms.2). The SMG was the god weapon so there was no need to switch. This actually goes for a lot of weapons in the past, Scrambler Rifle in it's early days, Burst HMG Nevertheless the Ion Pistol and Magsec did need a buff but they were legitimately bad weapons and were in different conditions as the Bolt Pistols, but with simply looking at numbers you would not be able to tell this difference, the folly of solely looking at "Data". - The whole Vehicle vs. AV imbalance I'm going to compact the history of this fiasco the best I can. In the early days, we had Standard, Advanced and PRO tanks. Then people would cry that they needed teamwork to kill the higher tier tanks (shocker right?) so to respond with CCPs need to attract more players they needed to dumb the game down a bit. So they Nerfed Vehicles while at the Same time...buffed AV. Now, this is the about the first time that they did this so it was acceptable but we ended up seeing that AV became too powerful against vehicles which made them kinda useless. A few months later they decide to take another swing at this. The solution was to Nerf AV while at the same time BUFFING Vehicles which somehow, *to their actual* surprise resulted in Vehicles becoming overpowered compared to Anti-Vehicle roles. This didn't happen once throughout DUST history, not twice, not even three times in this games lifetime but around 9 times of going in this clearly obvious cycle that they could have easily escaped from. Eventually the person that was in charge of vehicles...was no longer in charge of vehicles and they decided to completely strip down vehicle diversity and simplify it to start it from scratch so they could fix it.....which was a complete failure because the problems we had back then are literally the same exact problems we have now....minus the ADS issue. But I'll leave this for now because you could write a book on how they mishandled vehicle balance 101. - "Mu Data" That's apparently working as intended.** Rattati it should never be "intended" that players squad up with each other only to see two squads on the other team and get wrecked because their friendlies are fresh out the Academy just for the sake of "equalizing Mu" numbers. This is not balanced, this is not fair to your players, this is not logical. Anyone who plays this game for long knows that squads are what win battles not individuals. It doesn't matter if you have an A-team squad with the best DUSTers if the enemy team has two decent squads that communicate with each other. This game may have slowly reverted back into a lobby shooter with shorter time to kill like you guys said you didn't want to do a few months back...but teamwork is still one of the major, critical factors on if you lose or not. Trust me Rattai and friends, I do understand the limitations in what we are dealing with, not a large player base, and regional servers to further strain the matchmaking pool but asking for the game to be balanced around squads seems like a fairly simple construct to have. Would there still be pub stomps? Yes, it's going to happen, you can't escape total victories in any game but you can do a much better job with this, I know the system is new and it takes time but my optimism for this new matchmaking system has went from cheerfully optimistic to slightly worried to completely bitter; and it's only been about a week! -Assault Rifle nerfs in the old days This one is more towards the simpleton thinking of the DUST 514 community than CCP. A long time ago the Plasma Assault Rifle was the only General Purpose Rifle in the game and people complained that it was too good at a lot of things, even though the plasma rifle still had short range like now people complained that it was too good at what it did.....even though it was the only one that did what it did at the time so to fix this CCP decides to nerf the plasma Rifle, that's fine various variations did need a nerf but the general purpose rifle was fine. Cycles of Plasma Rifle Nerfs later and we see the Assault rifles in the pre-Delta form. Kinda useless overall and the best one [the standard assault rifle] was underperforming but there were no other general purpose rifles at the time so the community decides that the Assault Rifle is still too prominent on the field even though it was still the only assault rifle at the time and ask desperately to get the weapon nerfed. Thread after thread, the forums were filled with pleas to nerf the only general purpose rifle in the game because too many people used it. Later on the Scrambler Rifle is introduced and was pretty balanced besides some slight mechanic issues but CCP saw that "it wasn't being used as much as the Plasma Rifle" so they buffed it to what it was Pre-Delta. Even though this happened people still cried for plasma Rifle Nerfs and later on the Rail and Combat Rifle are introduced (at extremely OP levels) and everyone is completely fine with the OP rifles and completely forgets that they were just trying to nerf the now underperforming rifle. That says a lot! Something's wrong when you regret Things that haven't happened yet
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 7699	Posted - 2014.10.02 20:28:00 - [2] - Quote -Academy Failures A long time ago CCP decided to listen to the community and improve the NPE by adding the Academy, while it was great on paper CCP managed to drop the ball on it by relying on their skewed "data" to make the Academy parameters. The Academy was designed to help new players and CCP decided that once you reach a certain WP level you could graduate from the Academy and get sent out into the glorious unforgiving world of ~~New Eden~~ DUST 514. They came up with the amount of WP needed to graduate by finding the Average of Players in this game and based it off of that. Which resulted in a failed experience where you only needed three battles to leave the academy. What went wrong? Here are just several factors 1). When dealing with the Averages you have to be careful because you can have the majority of players being on completely two completely different sides of the spectrum with only a few in the middle and the average will completely leave out the majority of players and focus only on the ones in the middle. I'll explain this with shapes and pigeons, lets say there are Pigeons sitting on a rectangle the majority of Pigeons are sitting on the far left and right side with only very little in the middle. If CCP were to look at this scenario they would say that the majority of Pigeons are in the middle simply because the numbers naturally even out between two extremes when you deal with Averages. Even though it's quite obvious that there are barely any pigeons in the middle, the data suggest that there are many. 2). Did not, at all take into account of AFK farming, which was a tremendous issue at the time. AFK farming is what happens in a game where you give little to no incentive to win, which is a problem DUST has always had but I digress. Going back to example 1 CCP made the Average WP based off of two (really more than two) extremes: People who played the Games WP ratio vs. New Player who just started the game vs. Alts that are just for SP/ISK farming vs. new players that completely dumped DUST 514 and left them idle. Take all that into account and you have the reason for Academy being a failed experiment for months and it's still too low if you ask me. They took the averages of the Community and based the Academy Criteria off of skewed data. I could go on but these are some of the examples that really bite at my knickers. I've been here since the beginning and I'm just tired of seeing CCP and the Community make similar mistakes and assumptions based off the same failed logic patterns time after time after time... You can't fix the Community, the majority of us are unsalvageable but CCP you aren't and you can and should learn to not look at things in a black and white light like you guys have done so disturbingly frequently. The point of this thread is just to say that when you're dealing with Statistics / data it is never black and white and there will never be one or two simple factors that act out a full equation. There are a multitude of factors to take into considerations but time after time CCP and the community have failed to realise this simple common knowledge. I feel like you guys do know this but something just looses contact along the way. With all that being said, CCP Rattati, you and your team are doing a thousand times better than the previous developers have and I can honestly say that had you been here in the beginning, DUST would have been a huge success because having a DEV that actually plays his own game and having some common gaming logic sense is so much more important than some guy who's some "highly trained", Ex-EA employee but is dealing with a product he has no clue about and is only concerned about the bottom line. Developers, GMs, thank you for your time if you managed to read through this, the purpose of this wasn't just a rant but a concern from a very loyal customer who believes greatly in your product. In the age of Lobby Shooters, low skill requirements and constant DLCs that have more content than the game itself, this FPS is a humongous breath of fresh air compared to the generic trash FPS shooters out there. I just don't want it to fail....well Legion to fail I guess because DUST is on it's way out but I digress! Thank you guys. Something's wrong when you regret Things that haven't happened yet
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 7703	Posted - 2014.10.02 21:00:00 - [3] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: I can't fathom reversing the awesome that is the new matchmaking. It's provided the most balanced matches in years. No longer does seeing a Fatal Absolution squad on the other team mean I might as well leave match, because it's going to be a stomp. If you are a really high Mu squad, and hence get matchmade with some newbies, and hence, have an actual "tough fight" instead of an easy stomp, that is a good thing. You should never go into a match assured of victory. If you want a game mode that is doing less to make for even matches, try FacWar. :D You're foolish if you wish to assume that I want a pubstomp simply because of my tag. And you're on the CPM? get out of here. My problem is that when squading with my teammates it results in our team being the only one to push objectives while everybody else runs and hides. You seriously find this acceptable? Or are your past biases getting in the way here since you wish to bring up my corp? I've only wanted good battles and balance in this game, I haven't ever even spec'd into Flavor of the Month sticking only to Gallente themed weaponry as my persona, even if that meant I had to use ***** weapons so how dare you even have the audacity to accuse me of wanting easy mode matches solely off my tag. Something's wrong when you regret Things that haven't happened yet
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 7703	Posted - 2014.10.02 21:05:00 - [4] - Quote Atiim wrote: Damn these Gallenteans and their giant walls of text. Someone needs to confiscate their keyboards. They can take our Keyboards, but they will never take our FREEDOM! Something's wrong when you regret Things that haven't happened yet
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 7740	Posted - 2014.10.03 05:19:00 - [5] - Quote walks back into thread Leaves thread Something's wrong when you regret Things that haven't happened yet
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 7755	Posted - 2014.10.03 15:55:00 - [6] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: They care and that's why they rant and are so passionate . Indeed, we are passionate. But when we rant, we do so because (1) we lack sense or (2) we lack a solution. Take, for example, Kirk on the early Uprising Assault Rifle ... Fun Facts The AR dominated every killfeed of every battle, every day for 6+ months. The AR consistently outperformed laser rifles (and everything else) at range. The AR consistently outperformed the HMG (and everything else) up close. Does Kirk lack sense? Kirk maintains that everything was fine. The only real problem was with the Community, who failed to understand why one weapon should dominate gameplay on such extraordinary and prolonged scale. It was necessary and appropriate for the Gallente Fine Rifle to be the very best at all things, including but not limited to aiming itself. It was unnecessary and inappropriate for CCP to touch the Finest of Fine Rifles. Kirk's bias has overruled his sense. So Kirk rants. Or does Kirk lack a solution? Kirk maintains that while everything was fine with the Gallente Fine Rifle, there was a significant problem with comparative performance of every other weapon in the game. Kirk opposes any adjustment to the Finest of Fine Rifles, but at the same time recognizes that rebalancing all else against the AR would entail an extremely complex, error-prone and time-consuming effort. Something has to be done, but he can't think of what to do. Kirk lacks a solution. So Kirk rants. So which bin do we put Kirk in? Read the following rant, and decide for yourself: Sgt Kirk wrote: Assault Rifle nerfs in the old days This one is more towards the simpleton thinking of the DUST 514 community than CCP. A long time ago the Plasma Assault Rifle was the only General Purpose Rifle in the game and people complained that it was too good at a lot of things, even though the plasma rifle still had short range like now people complained that it was too good at what it did.....even though it was the only one that did what it did at the time so to fix this CCP decides to nerf the plasma Rifle, that's fine various variations did need a nerf but the general purpose rifle was fine. Cycles of Plasma Rifle Nerfs later and we see the Assault rifles in the pre-Delta form. Kinda useless overall and the best one [the standard assault rifle] was underperforming but there were no other general purpose rifles at the time so the community decides that the Assault Rifle is still too prominent on the field even though it was still the only assault rifle at the time and ask desperately to get the weapon nerfed. Thread after thread, the forums were filled with pleas to nerf the only general purpose rifle in the game because too many people used it. Or you could completely ignore where I said that they needed some tune downs at some points but that's okay, try to make yourself look smart little man. See you space cowboy...
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 7755	Posted - 2014.10.03 16:07:00 - [7] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: walks back into thread Leaves thread Not even a reply Sorry, got sidetracked with life, I'm busier near the weekend than I am the week. I do appreciate the reply though and some points that I'd wish to bring up have already been addressed by other fellow DUSTers. See you space cowboy...