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emm kay
New Age Empire.
General Tso's Alliance
155
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Posted - 2014.07.30 02:49:00 -
[31] - Quote
Tebu Gan wrote:
Why doesn't EVERYONE do this!
forge guns.
--
You called, sir?
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3177
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Posted - 2014.07.30 03:08:00 -
[32] - Quote
Onesimus Tarsus wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:Onesimus Tarsus wrote:Klutch Cordova wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:Because some of us have standards, chivalry and numerous other gentlemanly attributes that make us prefer a fair fight! The only fair fights in Dust are the ones where everyone is unfair. Kdr matchmaking fixes this. No, it breakes more than it fixes. You end up with Heavies with no Masters Logis with no Dogs Thale Snipers against Scouts AV against Assaults Tanks against each other. KDR is a pointless metric to multiple roles and in some cases has no bearing on their performance. Which is more important . . . . . A Logi who kills people, or a logi who rezzes people? A AVer who kills people, or a AVer who destroys anything with a turret? A Scout who kills people, or a Scouts who scans people? A Sentinel who kills people, or a Sentinel who never loose a point? KDR only matters to those whoose job is to 'kill people', which is a single role. The best matchmaking system would be an EvE-esque one. 3 Security statuses, each time you achieve a new sew you achieve the relevant security status. You can bring anything below the designated tier, but at your own risk. (Example: You are free to run STD in NULL SEC Space, but if you die to lots of proto, you have only yourself to blame) HIGH SEC: MLT/STD LOW SEC: ADV NULL SEC: PRO Assumes perfect weapon balance. Kdrmm doesn't need that. It just matches lethality and lets roles be filled at level of lethality.
Precisely so logis are lethal somthey get put at the bottom, then thet shoudl 500 noobs in STD gear in a match, go up, go down go up, go down.
The top ranked matches are just full of Slayers who never even bother hacking points be cause they are too concerned with their KDR to leave the redline.
KDR matchmaking only works in games like COD, where the only objective is to kill people.
Perfect weapon balance is not required, all though if you believe otherwise, please fell free to actually give a detailed explanation as to why you need perfect weapon balance, when it has nothing to do with the system I have suggested.
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3177
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Posted - 2014.07.30 03:10:00 -
[33] - Quote
emm kay wrote:Tebu Gan wrote:
Why doesn't EVERYONE do this!
forge guns. Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:It is something I would like to get fixed ASAP. It is an imbalance that we do not need. disagree completely. you have three pilots, each sunk 1-2m MINUMUM SP in order to even get this far. you plan to try to take it away? not only that, any person who can pick up a forge gun can shoot at a bird to make it run. that includes the MLT version. If two people picked up the MLT forge guns, you could down 3 people and a 500,000 ISK ship. when you're out numbered. this simply isn't fair to the dropshippers. not only that, you said yourself in YOUR videos that AV gets the first strive. and with a ship that had strength comprimises made to it, this is simply unfair.
Why don't they just get three dropships.
You shouldn't be skilling into dropship operation-to use a turret.
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
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Onesimus Tarsus
Grundstein Automation
2373
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Posted - 2014.07.30 04:00:00 -
[34] - Quote
Quote:Perfect weapon balance is not required, all though if you believe otherwise, please fell free to actually give a detailed explanation as to why you need perfect weapon balance, when it has nothing to do with the system I have suggested.
None of those "problems" takes into consideration the one thing dust is so proud of... cost. Stack all the slayers at the top, and somebody is going to fall, and staying up there is going to be expensive. So, slayers will have to get isk from somewhere other than slaying... the whole thing just poetically unfolds like a spring flower. I wouldn't worry about it too much, we're never getting it. Mainly because it would work.
K/D(r) matchmaking fixes the whole game. Period. It even fixes WP/D(r).
Beh!
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Zindorak
1.U.P
193
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Posted - 2014.07.30 04:07:00 -
[35] - Quote
I dont understand what is skillstacking and how to do it. Can someone pls explain
Master of the Scrambler Pistol. Carthum Assault ScP <3
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843-Vika
BurgezzE.T.F
General Tso's Alliance
159
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Posted - 2014.07.30 04:32:00 -
[36] - Quote
Zindorak wrote:I dont understand what is skillstacking and how to do it. Can someone pls explain
3 people in 1 ads with lvl 5 ads skills = 50% x 3 RoF bonus |
SgtMajSquish MLBJ
Consolidated Dust
192
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Posted - 2014.07.30 04:49:00 -
[37] - Quote
Onesimus Tarsus wrote:Klutch Cordova wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:Because some of us have standards, chivalry and numerous other gentlemanly attributes that make us prefer a fair fight! The only fair fights in Dust are the ones where everyone is unfair. Kdr matchmaking fixes this.
KDR??????? Get out of here and go back to CoD
I'll see you guys on Legion when the Steambox is released
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Malleus Malificorum
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
36
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Posted - 2014.07.30 06:03:00 -
[38] - Quote
OP FOTM wrote:Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:It is something I would like to get fixed ASAP. It is an imbalance that we do not need. Listen Judge... I voted for you and everything but... The poor people who skilled into small turrets JUST for this... You're not going to shortchange them are you? At least take the PILOT'S SKILL AWAY from the turret AND NOT THE GUNNER'S. THAT would really be the ONLY fair way to do it...
emm kay wrote:Tebu Gan wrote:
Why doesn't EVERYONE do this!
forge guns. Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:It is something I would like to get fixed ASAP. It is an imbalance that we do not need. disagree completely. you have three pilots, each sunk 1-2m MINUMUM SP in order to even get this far. you plan to try to take it away? not only that, any person who can pick up a forge gun can shoot at a bird to make it run. that includes the MLT version. If two people picked up the MLT forge guns, you could down 3 people and a 500,000 ISK ship. when you're out numbered. this simply isn't fair to the dropshippers. not only that, you said yourself in YOUR videos that AV gets the first strive. and with a ship that had strength comprimises made to it, this is simply unfair.
You skilled into something you probably suspected wasn't working as intended. You can rot with those 'wasted skillpoints'. I have no sympathy for people who exploit to gain an unfair advantage over others. |
Onesimus Tarsus
Grundstein Automation
2375
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Posted - 2014.07.30 11:12:00 -
[39] - Quote
SgtMajSquish MLBJ wrote:Onesimus Tarsus wrote:Klutch Cordova wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:Because some of us have standards, chivalry and numerous other gentlemanly attributes that make us prefer a fair fight! The only fair fights in Dust are the ones where everyone is unfair. Kdr matchmaking fixes this. KDR??????? Get out of here and go back to CoD
Easy, Einstein... if you blow both your brain cells, you'll have to run for congress.
K/D(r) matchmaking fixes the whole game. Period. It even fixes WP/D(r).
Beh!
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
1190
|
Posted - 2014.07.30 11:43:00 -
[40] - Quote
Onesimus Tarsus wrote:Klutch Cordova wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:Because some of us have standards, chivalry and numerous other gentlemanly attributes that make us prefer a fair fight! The only fair fights in Dust are the ones where everyone is unfair. Kdr matchmaking fixes this.
lol DEAD WRONG.
Pilot stays on zero kills, remember? So the pilot would get into nooby nooby games at will.
And the squad?
Depends.
If SQ leader's kdr decides the matchmaking, they both get into nooby nooby games.
If it is the average kdr of SQ, they still get into average games and enjoy those.
Matchmaking is much more complex thing with so many things to consider. Please keep kdr matchmaking discu in it's own thread instead of spamming every thread.
People would enjoy Dust a lot more if they accepted the fact that EVERYTHING is subject to change
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
1190
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Posted - 2014.07.30 11:49:00 -
[41] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:emm kay wrote:Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:It is something I would like to get fixed ASAP. It is an imbalance that we do not need. disagree completely. you have three pilots, each sunk 1-2m MINUMUM SP in order to even get this far. you plan to try to take it away? not only that, any person who can pick up a forge gun can shoot at a bird to make it run. that includes the MLT version. If two people picked up the MLT forge guns, you could down 3 people and a 500,000 ISK ship. when you're out numbered. this simply isn't fair to the dropshippers. not only that, you said yourself in YOUR videos that AV gets the first strive. and with a ship that had strength comprimises made to it, this is simply unfair. Why don't they just get three dropships. You shouldn't be skilling into dropship operation-to use a turret.
- Vehicle limit
- to promote co-operation in MULTIPLAYER game
- 1/3 cost
- contentrated firepower vs one target (HAV)
- Avoid midair collisions
People would enjoy Dust a lot more if they accepted the fact that EVERYTHING is subject to change
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
1190
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Posted - 2014.07.30 11:55:00 -
[42] - Quote
Malleus Malificorum wrote:The dark cloud wrote:Malleus Malificorum wrote:It's a bug, and people that exploit it should be punished. And how should people avoid it? As im aware you cant "unskill" your skilltree. By simply not doing it? I have characters that have been skilled into things that were also susceptible to bugs that caused unfair advantages (like the weapon swap while hacking glitch with cloak that allowed you to run around cloaked and still use a weapon), I simply chose not to exploit them. It's not hard to go "hey let's not be assholes who have 3 people with python/incubus level 5 in one dropship". CCP didn't force you to spend the skillpoints to exploit the bug, nor do they force people all into one assault dropship. You are making a choice when you exploit and you should be punished for choosing to exploit a bug in order to gain an unfair advantage over others. These things aren't abused by accident, don't try to pretend that they are.
That is delusional rant to want their heads on poles like that.
All those exploit examples you gave are entirely different as they are and need specific actions to enable the glitch. For example, do specific keystrokes,
Manning a turret on a dropship...
Is something turret is SUPPOSED to have.
To say that two friends who both happen to have ADS skills going tandem should be persecuted as exploiters...
Will not and should not happen.
People would enjoy Dust a lot more if they accepted the fact that EVERYTHING is subject to change
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
1190
|
Posted - 2014.07.30 12:04:00 -
[43] - Quote
On the whole subject:
Should a vehicle have turret bonuses?
Maybe. That's a design/gamebalance choice.
Should vehicle owner be able to skill up his turrets?
Most likely, he is the main user and specialist.
Should a turret operator be able to skill up the turret he is manning?
Most likely, if he is willing to make the investment. Yes, if we want to differentiate him from uninvested ones.
The issue itself:
Whose skills should affect the turrets???
A) Pilot only?
B) Turret operator only?
C) Best of those two?
D) Both those two (and no one else)?
E) Both those two but with some cap?
F) All but with diminishing returns?
People would enjoy Dust a lot more if they accepted the fact that EVERYTHING is subject to change
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DontChimpOut
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
46
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Posted - 2014.07.30 15:14:00 -
[44] - Quote
Malleus Malificorum wrote:It's a bug, and people that exploit it should be punished.
Not fair something can stack, no, only infantry is allowed to have useful skills. |
DontChimpOut
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
46
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Posted - 2014.07.30 15:17:00 -
[45] - Quote
Malleus Malificorum wrote:The dark cloud wrote:Malleus Malificorum wrote:It's a bug, and people that exploit it should be punished. And how should people avoid it? As im aware you cant "unskill" your skilltree. By simply not doing it? I have characters that have been skilled into things that were also susceptible to bugs that caused unfair advantages (like the weapon swap while hacking glitch with cloak that allowed you to run around cloaked and still use a weapon), I simply chose not to exploit them. It's not hard to go "hey let's not be assholes who have 3 people with python/incubus level 5 in one dropship". CCP didn't force you to spend the skillpoints to exploit the bug, nor do they force people all into one assault dropship. You are making a choice when you exploit and you should be punished for choosing to exploit a bug in order to gain an unfair advantage over others. These things aren't abused by accident, don't try to pretend that they are.
That's like saying someone must be pulled over every 10 miles because they drive a Porsche or BMW. We can't know they're an experienced driver, so the police must pull them over often to make sure they're driving responsibly.
Do you have any idea how stupid that sounds? |
Leadfoot10
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
1246
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Posted - 2014.07.30 15:32:00 -
[46] - Quote
WLR is much better than KDR matchmaking. |
DontChimpOut
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
46
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Posted - 2014.07.30 15:34:00 -
[47] - Quote
Bethhy wrote:CCP made dropships a Giant ******* joke.
They are completely offensive based platforms.. like....WTF?
What part of assault dropship don't you understand? |
DontChimpOut
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
46
|
Posted - 2014.07.30 15:37:00 -
[48] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Tebu Gan wrote:Ran into on in a match, and HOLY **** MAN. Those things are utterly insane. Spent most of the time in the redline (as that's the ONLY place you have a chance of shooting one when you are a lone tanker), ended up losing the tank to it eventually (actually another tank finally came up, he just got the killing blow).
Called in an ADS to see what this thing was all about, and was AMAZED at how the gunner instantly (all missiles left that launcher in less a second) destroyed my ADS. OP much?
Why doesn't EVERYONE do this! Because some of us have standards, chivalry and numerous other gentlemanly attributes that make us prefer a fair fight!
LOL
Look at your posting history against vehicles. Do you give them a fair shake? |
DontChimpOut
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
46
|
Posted - 2014.07.30 15:42:00 -
[49] - Quote
OP FOTM wrote:Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:It is something I would like to get fixed ASAP. It is an imbalance that we do not need. Listen Judge... I voted for you and everything but... The poor people who skilled into small turrets JUST for this... You're not going to shortchange them are you? At least take the PILOT'S SKILL AWAY from the turret AND NOT THE GUNNER'S. THAT would really be the ONLY fair way to do it...
Seems everybody on here is only about nerfing vehicles. That amount to another vehicle nerf. |
Patrick57
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
7911
|
Posted - 2014.07.30 15:47:00 -
[50] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:You shouldn't be skilling into dropship operation-to use a turret.
It's just a bonus to the turret, like the Amarr Assault gives a bonus to the Scrambler/Laser Rifle and the Minmatar Assault a bonus to the Combat Rifle.
King Thunderbolt is my number one fan.
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Taurion Bruni
D3ATH CARD
248
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Posted - 2014.07.30 15:48:00 -
[51] - Quote
TEBOW BAGGINS wrote:Taurion Bruni wrote:TEBOW BAGGINS wrote:OP FOTM wrote:Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:It is something I would like to get fixed ASAP. It is an imbalance that we do not need. Listen Judge... I voted for you and everything but... The poor people who skilled into small turrets JUST for this... You're not going to shortchange them are you? At least take the PILOT'S SKILL AWAY from the turret AND NOT THE GUNNER'S. THAT would really be the ONLY fair way to do it... ikr the dedicated gunners are owed a respec if they completely nerf stacking removing the stack bug would make it so the pilot and the gunner have the same ROF those who specced into the turret will still enjoy those benefits and if said gunner specced into the ADS just to be a gunner... you should have seen this coming... my only concern is it gets nerfed along with the large turret installation buff- so now we suck vs those i guess just spam price reduced ADS at them, should be pretty epic
Dropships are currently being looked at to see if they need a buff. they are starting with the EHP, but may move on to other things to balance it out.
Python Pilot // Minmatar Assault
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DontChimpOut
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
46
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Posted - 2014.07.30 15:50:00 -
[52] - Quote
Leadfoot10 wrote:WLR is much better than KDR matchmaking.
No
Someone could by some cruel twist of fate, always be on a bad team. CCP's "matchmaking fix" lasted only a few weeks, because after that time, once again it was my one squad of 3 or 4 and all no-squad randoms vs at least 2 squads of 4 each. |
White-Lion
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
20
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Posted - 2014.07.30 16:48:00 -
[53] - Quote
TEBOW BAGGINS wrote:Tebu Gan wrote:
Why doesn't EVERYONE do this!
because most pilots are to doosh baggy for their egos to make room for a gunner?
Actually no, as a, both level 5 pilot operation in python and incubus, the CPU and PG cost of turrets takes so much, that I am literally sacrificing at least +1000 ehp just to be able to fit advance turrets. I honestly don't think it is a bug just because it's balance. Yes you heard me, if an ads is sacrificing its shield/armor I can garentee that's it's main defense is speed (afterburner), considering that AB only works in the direction in which the engines are facing, which is usually downward and not moving so the gunners can line up theirs shots. It is easy to tell where the ads will go once it activate it's AB, just use an aFG and if you predict right, I garentee you can kill itin 2-3 shots. |
White-Lion
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
20
|
Posted - 2014.07.30 16:59:00 -
[54] - Quote
Derpty Derp wrote:The ads bonus without the bug is uneeded, I'd honestly rather it was just some kind of bonus to pg/cpu cost when placing multiple turrets on the thing.
But yeah, the glitched fire speed is beyond stupid.
So you want to encourage people to get in a +500k isk that can't be recalled because blueberries are to stupid to get out of a dropship?
I think that would be a bad bonus just because of human error, and the fact that the ads would be worthless, because the standard dropship would be able to have more ehp with the same dps as an ads (plus it cost 1/10 the amount of an ads), the only thing it gets out classed in is speed which it makes up for in defense.
Which reminds me the Myron's PG/CPU layout is crap, it literally has to choose between having 2 turrets or somewhat decent defense... Which is sad. |
Sgt Buttscratch
R 0 N 1 N
2190
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Posted - 2014.07.30 17:01:00 -
[55] - Quote
one of the gunners in the skyshark that kiiled the OP had 0 turret skills, not sure bout the other.
This whole thread has spurred from someone throwing a glass cannon at a pilot who was ready for the attack.
Give me my scrambler pistol back....**
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Malleus Malificorum
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
36
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Posted - 2014.07.30 17:24:00 -
[56] - Quote
DontChimpOut wrote:Malleus Malificorum wrote:It's a bug, and people that exploit it should be punished. Not fair something can stack, no, only infantry is allowed to have useful skills.
I play more roles in this game than you're aware of, and skillstacking isn't intended or balanced. The devs themselves have stated its an unintended bug. Deal with it.
I've heard all sorts of absolutely insane defenses of it like 'WE'RE SO MUCH BETTER THAN THOSE ARROGANT SOLO PILOTS WHO JUST FLY SOLO AND FARM KILLS' - yep you exploit a bug to do the exact same thing.
In any match where a skill-stacked dropship exists, no other vehicles can exist in sky or on ground. A 'skillpoint investment' should never grant such an overwhelming advantage.
DontChimpOut wrote:OP FOTM wrote:Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:It is something I would like to get fixed ASAP. It is an imbalance that we do not need. Listen Judge... I voted for you and everything but... The poor people who skilled into small turrets JUST for this... You're not going to shortchange them are you? At least take the PILOT'S SKILL AWAY from the turret AND NOT THE GUNNER'S. THAT would really be the ONLY fair way to do it... Seems everybody on here is only about nerfing vehicles. That amount to another vehicle nerf.
Fixing something that wasn't working as intended and is giving the users an unbelievable advantage for exploiting it isn't a 'nerf', it's called a bugfix. |
Malleus Malificorum
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
36
|
Posted - 2014.07.30 17:29:00 -
[57] - Quote
KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:Malleus Malificorum wrote:The dark cloud wrote:Malleus Malificorum wrote:It's a bug, and people that exploit it should be punished. And how should people avoid it? As im aware you cant "unskill" your skilltree. By simply not doing it? I have characters that have been skilled into things that were also susceptible to bugs that caused unfair advantages (like the weapon swap while hacking glitch with cloak that allowed you to run around cloaked and still use a weapon), I simply chose not to exploit them. It's not hard to go "hey let's not be assholes who have 3 people with python/incubus level 5 in one dropship". CCP didn't force you to spend the skillpoints to exploit the bug, nor do they force people all into one assault dropship. You are making a choice when you exploit and you should be punished for choosing to exploit a bug in order to gain an unfair advantage over others. These things aren't abused by accident, don't try to pretend that they are. That is delusional rant to want their heads on poles like that. All those exploit examples you gave are entirely different as they are and need specific actions to enable the glitch. For example, do specific keystrokes, Manning a turret on a dropship... Is something turret is SUPPOSED to have.
To say that two friends who both happen to have ADS skills going tandem should be persecuted as exploiters...
Will not and should not happen.
If it's happening consistently, yes you should be punished for exploiting. I've been aware of this bug for as long as it's existed and I'm friends with other people who have high dropship skills and I have *never* used it, because its incredibly easy not to. As I said previously - exploitation of glitches doesn't happen by accident. |
843-Vika
BurgezzE.T.F
General Tso's Alliance
159
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Posted - 2014.07.30 17:46:00 -
[58] - Quote
What is utterly stupid about this entire thread is that it is based of a person QQing about how a an ADS killed him.
QQing about it will not change anything, try getting good.
I lost 2 ads and 2 tanks yesterday and do you see me qqing about it? No because its all part of the game, i lost stuff and i kill stuff in an endless cycle.
Now here is to clear up a few things.
First a person mentioned about turrets skills, the only turret skill that does anything is its profi skill, which increases turret rotation speed, meaning the skill just makes it turn faster. Nothing gives extra damage to small turrets execpt ADS skills. The generic ADS skill increases damage to small turrets. The racial ADS skill increases RoF, that is the only skills that help small turrets.
Second anyone who believes people should be punished for the way they spent their sp that they spent week, months earning should just leave the forums and dust entirely, because you are only ruining the game for people, go back to CoD or BF4 where you don't need skills to play, this game is about earning sp and investing it where you want, not where others think you should.
Dust is built around being skill its anything you want for any reason you want, and no one can tell you that you were wrong for doing it. If its your personal opinion then keep it to your self, because most likely no one cares what you think..
QQer ruin this game and need to either leave or STFU and learn to adapt to the game instead trying to make the game adapt to you. |
Sgt Buttscratch
R 0 N 1 N
2190
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Posted - 2014.07.30 17:53:00 -
[59] - Quote
843-Vika wrote:What is utterly stupid about this entire thread is that it is based of a person QQing about how a an ADS killed him.
QQing about it will not change anything, try getting good.
Exactly. The issue has nothing to do with how other spent there skill points, it is all about the skill of the pilots involved, OP got rolled. We had a good laugh about this when I was squaded with the offending pilot and gunners the next day, pilot loved the fact a post was made.
Give me my scrambler pistol back....**
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz
General Tso's Alliance
1109
|
Posted - 2014.07.30 17:58:00 -
[60] - Quote
Interesting thoughts fellas. The discussion went way beyond what I expected. But I feel there is a bit of groundwork that needs to be laid out and questions to be answered.
The problem - ADS stacking
What is ADS stacking? Well see, there is this skill:
Caldari Assault dropship /Gallente Assault Dropship - 10% per level to either Missile or Rail/Blaster rate of fire per level as well as a 5% increase to maximum ammo capacity.
This skill stacks with other pilots in the dropship. So at max level 5, gunner skills stack with pilot skill, making for incredibly fast rates of fire above and beyond what is normal.
The skill tree
The dropship is the only vehicle type that gains bonuses in this way. If you would look at the skill tree, skilling into HAV's or LAV's only requires one point into HAV or LAV's;
As one point is sufficient to unlock both types of vehicles
There is no bonus attached.
So points wasted going any further than level one as there are no conceivable bonus to having multiple levels. On the other hand, the ADS has 2 skills that provide additional bonuses per level.
Assault dropships - 2% per level to small turret damage.
Caldari / Assault dropships - 10% to ROF and 5% ammo cap per level.
Unlike a HAV or LAV, these 2 additional skills work with small turrets for a gunner. Otherwise, the only bonuses you could gain are Ammo reload speed, Ammo capacity, and proficiency (increases turret rotation speed), if someone decides to be a proficient gunner.
Pros and Cons
I have seen a lot of people for keeping this mechanic in the game, and many against. It's quite clear to me why some would want to keep it and some would like to see it go.
Those FOR - It makes the idea of someone dedicating themselves to the purpose of gunning, meaningful. Meaning you get clear and direct results from your SP investment, separating yourself from the "average" gunner. And I TOTALLY agree with this sentiment.
Those AGAINST - When used with the ADS, it provides an OVERWHELMING advantage to the pilot and gunners, above and beyond what should be allowed. This makes them do things like, insta pop tanks or simply annihilate infantry on the ground with a flurry of missile fire. And agree that it is a broken mechanic.
BUT, does anybody stop to consider the other types, HAV and LAV, that could take advantage of this, without it becoming overwhelming or OP. In an HAV or LAV, the only skills that could stack are reload speed, ammo cap, and proficiency.
So by removing this mechanic, the bonuses for skilling into the idea of being a gunner aren't very meaningful. More so in the case of Tanks and LAV's.
While I do agree this is a broken mechanic, it's only broken because TWO skills, that provide VERY large bonuses to small turrets in a SINGLE vehicle type. So it's not so much the mechanic itself that is the culprit, but the lack of foresight when creating skills for the ADS.
Idea proposal
One of the prominent ideas with all of these recent tank changes, was to shift the focus of the large turrets (large blasters in particular) from being AI focused to AV focused. Than the thought process was that gunners were to fill that void. That is, gunners were supposed to fill in for the lack of an AI role. Want to kill infantry, then fit small guns to your tank.
Something that wasn't foreseen, is how utterly useless tanks become when they can no longer terrorize infantry alone. Not to forget the changes to AV effectiveness, either directly or indirectly, that have made tanks easy to drive away or outright kill. So basically, tanks have a very limited impact on the field as a result.
As a user of small turrets on my own tanks, I can say with a good gunner this does hold very true. A single gunner can consistently rack up 20 kills a match without a problem. And while with a gunner you can be very effective, it's also very easy to counter with AV. Most of my time isn't spent simply chugging away at the infantry, but running from AV.
Throw in a couple of forge gunners and my 2 to 3 man killing machine gets completely denied. TOTALLY fair in my book.
But the issue with gunners, their power potential shouldn't be totally dependent on me. Meaning currently, the best way to increase their effectiveness is to equip bigger and more expensive (cost and CPU/PG) turrets. And if a change to skill stacking came, one that bases skills off of the driver and not the operator, EVERYTHING is on me to provide.
So what I want to see:
Small turrets are affected by OPERATOR skill and not the owners skill, ONLY. Meaning someone skilled into ADS can still get a 50% ROF bonus for putting the points into it.
Redesign the skill trees for small turrets, separating skills so that there skills of clear use to the owner of the vehicle for fitting purposes, and those that would wish to gun for the owner. Make gunning a thing!
RIght now, it is very worth it to skill for being an ADS gunner, but not so much for those gunning for an LAV or HAV. Removing skill stacking makes that even worse, but fixes problems with the ADS stacking. Main idea being, just because I slap guns on my tank, doesn't mean some blueberry off the street can waltz in and do just as good as somebody skilled into them.
Maybe even require skills to even OPERATE the damn thing eh?
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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