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XxGhazbaranxX
Eternal Beings
Proficiency V.
1671
   |
Posted - 2014.07.10 09:42:00 -
[1] - Quote
hello,
Recently CCP posted in their Hotfix charlie post that skill stacking was a bug. Any true vehicle user knows that skill stacking has always been a game mchanic and was not a bug at all. Back when turret operation used to give 2% to damage, it was ideal for pilot/driver and the gunner to both have skills maxed out.
Currently there has been a witch hunt going on about ADS pilots and gunners stacking skills but the reality of the situation is that these are rarely seen in matches. Out of every 3 matches I see 1 ADS with a gunner. Even so, Having a gunner is only beneficial because they can stack. The loss of tank involved in having a gunner, specially in the python, is only justifiable by the fact that the team can get in, deal damage and get out. Even truer now that the incubus damage profiles got switched to take on full swarm damage 80/120 and can be challenged even by militia swarms.
On top of it all, for the stacking to be truly as dangerous as many of the "bug removal advocates" say, both pilots need to be maxed out and even then, the DPS output is just enough to compete with similar weapon systems taking into consideration the drawbacks involved with reducing the tank on an ADS. With an investment of 2.4 million SP each (4.8 combined), the same as getting a proto suit, stacking existence is justified by SP to entry and isk to entry barrier that only the most dedicated pilots and gunners are willing to achieve; which consequently, aren't many.
The sentiment of the forums does not reflect the reality of gameplay. This mechanic which was never considered a bug until now, is not as detrimental to the game as some threads might suggest. The evidence is in game. It's not something everyone does, it's something with a high barrier and CCP should do some digging around before they put the bug label on a mechanic that has existed and was iterated upon when the developers chose which skills stack and which don't.
Plasma Cannon Advocate
Dust 514 Survivor
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Foundation Seldon
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
679
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Posted - 2014.07.10 09:54:00 -
[2] - Quote
1. It's a bug if it's an unintended effect that they had no real desire to bring to the game. Given that we were not privy to the development process of vehicles as a whole, we only have CCPs word to go on here. If they say it's a bug, it's a bug.
2. No True Scotsman
On the surface I think your point holds a certain amount of water though, a pilot does end up significantly effecting the tank of his vehicle by adding additional turrets to his vehicle. But I can't help but think that even THAT downfall is potentially balanced by the fact that a pilot is now much more "aware" of his surroundings given the extra eyes on the ship, you're more fragile yes but less likely overall to be caught surprised. If that ends up being the case then it ends up as a pretty obvious net buff to the vehicle.
Any true pilot should probably avoid kneejerk reactions to something that is obviously worth a fair bit of discussion.
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XxGhazbaranxX
Eternal Beings
Proficiency V.
1671
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Posted - 2014.07.10 10:08:00 -
[3] - Quote
Foundation Seldon wrote:1. It's a bug if it's an unintended effect that they had no real desire to bring to the game. Given that we were not privy to the development process of vehicles as a whole, we only have CCPs word to go on here. If they say it's a bug, it's a bug. 2. No True ScotsmanOn the surface I think your point holds a certain amount of water though, a pilot does end up significantly effecting the tank of his vehicle by adding additional turrets to his vehicle. But I can't help but think that even THAT downfall is potentially balanced by the fact that a pilot is now much more "aware" of his surroundings given the extra eyes on the ship, you're more fragile yes but less likely overall to be caught surprised. If that ends up being the case then it ends up as a pretty obvious net buff to the vehicle. Any true pilot should probably avoid kneejerk reactions to something that is obviously worth a fair bit of discussion.
As my last underlined sentence says, The mechanic was iterated upon and different skill where chosen to be stacked. To give you an example ammo expansion skill stacks but proficiency does not stack. In the old days, turret operation stacked with pilot/driver and gunner. These things were included in game on purpose and not by mistake. Remember that the team working on dust is reduced and not everyone working on it right now was working on it when these mechanics were included in the game.
The dreduction of tank is not potentially balanced. IN a perfect game setting, the gunner would be able to see things, or so would the pilot or so logic would dictate but, the fact is that current rendering mechanics make for an imperfect field of view for the pilot and the gunner. When none can see where invisible swarms are coming from, which is back, and none ca see where the forger is shooting from because they are not rendering (due to game mechanics and how rendering is done), the net decrease in defense is felt more than ever.
These problems are evident to actual pilots who do this almost everyday and are highe specialized and trained into this type of gameplay. Avoiding Kneejerk reaction is something that many players have done in the past to the detriment of the game. Many tried to expose ideas in a rational well thought out manner but the changes, which were done incorrectly were still done.
The scotsman comment, does not even start to apply here since All my views come from experienced pilots, 1 being the exception. I am not counter-arguing but exposing facts nor am I leading people to believe anything other than what the game history and code changes reflect, as in it existed before, it exists for certain skills and it was iterated upon because there was an active choice on which skills stacked for which I gave example of before and after vehicle re-balance.
Plasma Cannon Advocate
Dust 514 Survivor
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MINA Longstrike
996
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Posted - 2014.07.10 10:20:00 -
[4] - Quote
XxGhazbaranxX wrote:hello,
Recently CCP posted in their Hotfix charlie post that skill stacking was a bug. Any true vehicle user knows that skill stacking has always been a game mchanic and was not a bug at all. Back when turret operation used to give 2% to damage, it was ideal for pilot/driver and the gunner to both have skills maxed out.
Currently there has been a witch hunt going on about ADS pilots and gunners stacking skills but the reality of the situation is that these are rarely seen in matches. Out of every 3 matches I see 1 ADS with a gunner. Even so, Having a gunner is only beneficial because they can stack. The loss of tank involved in having a gunner, specially in the python, is only justifiable by the fact that the team can get in, deal damage and get out. Even truer now that the incubus damage profiles got switched to take on full swarm damage 80/120 and can be challenged even by militia swarms.
On top of it all, for the stacking to be truly as dangerous as many of the "bug removal advocates" say, both pilots need to be maxed out and even then, the DPS output is just enough to compete with similar weapon systems taking into consideration the drawbacks involved with reducing the tank on an ADS. With an investment of 2.4 million SP each (4.8 combined), the same as getting a proto suit, stacking existence is justified by SP to entry and isk to entry barrier that only the most dedicated pilots and gunners are willing to achieve; which consequently, aren't many.
The sentiment of the forums does not reflect the reality of gameplay. This mechanic which was never considered a bug until now, is not as detrimental to the game as some threads might suggest. The evidence is in game. It's not something everyone does, it's something with a high entry barrier and CCP should do some digging around before they put the bug label on a mechanic that has existed and was iterated upon when the developers chose which skills stack and which don't.
**** you, you self serving tw*t. It is a bug, it isn't intended, and it is in no way *balanced*.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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Beld Errmon
1762
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Posted - 2014.07.10 16:21:00 -
[5] - Quote
wah wah they are fixing the bug I exploited wah.... all i'm hearing "true vehicle user"
You don't need the stacked skills exploit, solo ADS pilots manage to use the weapons fine to destroy tanks and kill large amounts of infantry, the gunner will still get either his own skills or the pilots and he will still have the advantage of not actually flying the craft and being able to move the turret around independent of the ship, you are chucking a long winded hissy fit for nothing.
And stop BSing about the side guns gimping the tank, its marginally less tanky than the usual fits, unless you are trying to fit all 3 turrets at proto lvl, guess what buddy every vehicle and suit in the game needs to sacrifice something somewhere to be fit in a particular fashion.
Pilot - Tanker - FOTM (insert here)
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Finn Colman
Immortal Guides
29
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Posted - 2014.07.10 16:59:00 -
[6] - Quote
Beld Errmon wrote:wah wah they are fixing the bug I exploited wah.... all i'm hearing "true vehicle user"
You don't need the stacked skills exploit, solo ADS pilots manage to use the weapons fine to destroy tanks and kill large amounts of infantry, the gunner will still get either his own skills or the pilots and he will still have the advantage of not actually flying the craft and being able to move the turret around independent of the ship, you are chucking a long winded hissy fit for nothing.
And stop BSing about the side guns gimping the tank, its marginally less tanky than the usual fits, unless you are trying to fit all 3 turrets at proto lvl, guess what buddy every vehicle and suit in the game needs to sacrifice something somewhere to be fit in a particular fashion.
Just because a bug wasn't fixed for a long time doesn't make it a feature, skilling up to exploit that bug doesn't justify it being kept around for the handful of players that knew it existed and wanted to exploit it to its fullest.
Seriously? I can hardly tank my ADS at all without giving up a gun. Maybe it's because I don't have high skills in any aspect relating to vehicle modules, and even in this case you would be suggesting that there should be no pilots who don't dive in headfirst (a ridiculous notion in itself).
Besides a good pilot needs to be very skilled in actually operating the controls (not just those "skills" that take SP), if anyone knows that it is someone who is still learning to hit something with the nose turret without getting themselves shot down (it's been about three months of practicing now). I can't say the same for the skill of most tankers, but don't get me wrong there are some excellent tankers out there.
Aside from that I'm surprised that Ghazbaran has even seen so many ADS pilots who have side gunners. I rarely see an ADS, let alone one with gunners. Then again he probably plays more of the game modes for more skilled players (FW and PC)... or Scotty might actually have some matchmaking capability (though not much), but I'm unsure of that option because I was actually blasted in the face by Ghazbaran's PLC in one match.
I will acknowledge it (skill stacking) as a bug, but what about the other bugs around? Does it really effect gameplay that much? Am I the only person who rarely gets shot by an ADS when on foot? |
Beld Errmon
1763
|
Posted - 2014.07.10 17:01:00 -
[7] - Quote
does your gunner even overheat the rail before he empties the clip? because looking at these numbers and i'm not great with math, but with the stacked skills a proto rail on a maxed incubus is doing 4,168 dmg per second, 12,504 dmg for the entire clip
hell a large proto rail only does about 1060 dps without a dmg mod, large blasters are like 700 odd if i remember right... how can you really defend this bug?
Pilot - Tanker - FOTM (insert here)
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Beld Errmon
1763
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Posted - 2014.07.10 17:12:00 -
[8] - Quote
Finn Colman wrote:
I will acknowledge it (skill stacking) as a bug, but what about the other bugs around? Does it really effect gameplay that much? Am I the only person who rarely gets shot by an ADS when on foot?
Like anyone I want all bugs fixed, but this one gets my goat because a bug allows 2 people sometimes 3 to gang up on my dropship and shoot it down in under 2 seconds, all their pilot has to do is keep it steady all their gunner has to do is point and shoot, and no matter how well I fly they will win by virtue of having 3 turrets 2 of which can deliver twice my dps.
Even after this bug is fixed they will still have a number of advantages over me, but at least I'll have a fighting chance and they won't have a bug giving them 4k dps when the typical 2k is already amazingly powerful.
Pilot - Tanker - FOTM (insert here)
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Finn Colman
Immortal Guides
30
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Posted - 2014.07.10 17:20:00 -
[9] - Quote
Beld Errmon wrote:Finn Colman wrote:
I will acknowledge it (skill stacking) as a bug, but what about the other bugs around? Does it really effect gameplay that much? Am I the only person who rarely gets shot by an ADS when on foot?
Like anyone I want all bugs fixed, but this one gets my goat because a bug allows 2 people sometimes 3 to gang up on my dropship and shoot it down in under 2 seconds, all their pilot has to do is keep it steady all their gunner has to do is point and shoot, and no matter how well I fly they will win by virtue of having 3 turrets 2 of which can deliver twice my dps. Even after this bug is fixed they will still have a number of advantages over me, but at least I'll have a fighting chance and they won't have a bug giving them 4k dps when the typical 2k is already amazingly powerful.
*Shrugs* Most of the pilots I run into can hardly hold their own in a dogfight (the only thing I'm even moderately good at), regardless of the number of gunners. I suppose Scotty is doing something then, or it could be because I only play pubs. Whatever the case, It's simply not something I see or experience. I do however, experience getting shot by Rail tanks 2-3 times before crashing down. Like I've said many times in a few different threads, being a beginner pilot sucks. |
DUST Fiend
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
14560
|
Posted - 2014.07.10 17:33:00 -
[10] - Quote
Quit defending your crutch. If anything, turrets should be easier to fit. The maximum bonus allowed by standard methods is more than enough for a skilled player to be effective. Right now, players are utilizing a bug that pushes their abilities beyond what was intended (or makes any sense, at all) and now rely heavily on that bug to feel relevant.
Thank you Rattati, for clearing things up and acknowledging that this is, in fact, a BUG.
The Future
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Finn Colman
Immortal Guides
30
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Posted - 2014.07.10 19:00:00 -
[11] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:Quit defending your crutch. If anything, turrets should be easier to fit. The maximum bonus allowed by standard methods is more than enough for a skilled player to be effective. Right now, players are utilizing a bug that pushes their abilities beyond what was intended (or makes any sense, at all) and now rely heavily on that bug to feel relevant.
Thank you Rattati, for clearing things up and acknowledging that this is, in fact, a BUG.
Now, I can't disagree. I don't have enough reason to experience on either side of the argument so I can't make a strong argument for either. Personally if I can fit my Armour and all three turrets I'm fine with this. It's also worth noting that I'm not skilled into these anymore than what I need to fit them. |
Zindorak
CaUsE-4-CoNcErN
74
|
Posted - 2014.07.10 19:29:00 -
[12] - Quote
What is this skill stacking? |
DUST Fiend
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
14560
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Posted - 2014.07.10 19:34:00 -
[13] - Quote
Zindorak wrote:What is this skill stacking?
If you have Assault Dropship trained up to 5, you will get 10% additional damage to your small turrets. If you train up Incubus or Python to 5, you will get 50% RoF boost to your respective small turrets. There are also some skills that increase turret rotation, reload, and ammo capacity.
With the current bugged system, if someone who has these trained is in your side turret, their skills will stack on top of yours, pushing the turrets beyond their intended maximum efficiency. Not only does this make virtually no sense from any form of lore perspective, it makes no sense from a balancing perspective, and its refreshing to see CCP FINALLY acknowledge that it is, in fact, a bug, despite what some may argue.
This stacking also applies if the two players skills aren't maxed, it just becomes aggressively apparent when they are maxed.
The Future
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The dark cloud
The Rainbow Effect
3496
|
Posted - 2014.07.10 20:24:00 -
[14] - Quote
oh shut up you mad solo python scrubs. Teamwork>solo flying. |
DUST Fiend
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
14560
|
Posted - 2014.07.10 20:33:00 -
[15] - Quote
The dark cloud wrote:oh shut up you mad solo python scrubs. Teamwork>solo flying.
Abusing bugs doesn't make you a team player, it makes you someone who abuses bugs.
There are plenty of ways to make teamwork viable without having to use an officially bugged mechanic to feel relevant. You should be pushing CCP to make changes to small turrets to make them easier to fit. If solo players can kill vehicles, so can side guns without abusing bugs.
Stop being bad.
The Future
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Finn Colman
Immortal Guides
30
|
Posted - 2014.07.10 20:39:00 -
[16] - Quote
The dark cloud wrote:oh shut up you mad solo python scrubs. Teamwork>solo flying.
And what have you to say of someone like myself. Someone who has been convinced that it should be removed.
Also I fly an Incubus, for the record. |
The dark cloud
The Rainbow Effect
3496
|
Posted - 2014.07.10 21:07:00 -
[17] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:The dark cloud wrote:oh shut up you mad solo python scrubs. Teamwork>solo flying. Abusing bugs doesn't make you a team player, it makes you someone who abuses bugs. There are plenty of ways to make teamwork viable without having to use an officially bugged mechanic to feel relevant. You should be pushing CCP to make changes to small turrets to make them easier to fit. If solo players can kill vehicles, so can side guns without abusing bugs. Stop being bad.
Are you stupid? there are allready skills that decrease PG+CPU usage for all kind of turrets. And lol you are just mad cause you know it will most likely never get fixed cause CCP aint doing client updates anymore. |
DUST Fiend
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
14560
|
Posted - 2014.07.10 21:10:00 -
[18] - Quote
The dark cloud wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:The dark cloud wrote:oh shut up you mad solo python scrubs. Teamwork>solo flying. Abusing bugs doesn't make you a team player, it makes you someone who abuses bugs. There are plenty of ways to make teamwork viable without having to use an officially bugged mechanic to feel relevant. You should be pushing CCP to make changes to small turrets to make them easier to fit. If solo players can kill vehicles, so can side guns without abusing bugs. Stop being bad. Are you stupid? there are allready skills that decrease PG+CPU usage for all kind of turrets. And lol you are just mad cause you know it will most likely never get fixed cause CCP aint doing client updates anymore.
I could not begin to care less. There are SO many better games coming out. I'm just amused because I was right. It's a bug. You can argue it till you're blue in the face, but the simple fact is: it's a bug.
That's all.
Anyone abusing this is abusing a bug and they can do all the mental gymnastics in the world to justify it, but at the end of the day, they're abusing a bug to compensate for their own lack of talent as a pilot
The Future
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Larry Desmo
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2014.07.10 21:23:00 -
[19] - Quote
it seems like it should work that way, might as well get an advantage for spending all that sp, no reason to change it |
Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz
General Tso's Alliance
1056
|
Posted - 2014.07.10 21:25:00 -
[20] - Quote
XxGhazbaranxX wrote:hello,
Recently CCP posted in their Hotfix charlie post that skill stacking was a bug. Any true vehicle user knows that skill stacking has always been a game mchanic and was not a bug at all. Back when turret operation used to give 2% to damage, it was ideal for pilot/driver and the gunner to both have skills maxed out.
Currently there has been a witch hunt going on about ADS pilots and gunners stacking skills but the reality of the situation is that these are rarely seen in matches. Out of every 3 matches I see 1 ADS with a gunner. Even so, Having a gunner is only beneficial because they can stack. The loss of tank involved in having a gunner, specially in the python, is only justifiable by the fact that the team can get in, deal damage and get out. Even truer now that the incubus damage profiles got switched to take on full swarm damage 80/120 and can be challenged even by militia swarms.
On top of it all, for the stacking to be truly as dangerous as many of the "bug removal advocates" say, both pilots need to be maxed out and even then, the DPS output is just enough to compete with similar weapon systems taking into consideration the drawbacks involved with reducing the tank on an ADS. With an investment of 2.4 million SP each (4.8 combined), the same as getting a proto suit, stacking existence is justified by SP to entry and isk to entry barrier that only the most dedicated pilots and gunners are willing to achieve; which consequently, aren't many.
The sentiment of the forums does not reflect the reality of gameplay. This mechanic which was never considered a bug until now, is not as detrimental to the game as some threads might suggest. The evidence is in game. It's not something everyone does, it's something with a high entry barrier and CCP should do some digging around before they put the bug label on a mechanic that has existed and was iterated upon when the developers chose which skills stack and which don't.
In all honesty, the smalls should be a LOT easier to fit than they are. The way things are now, it's encouraged to NOT fit guns, when given the recent changes to tank and AV, it needs to be ENCOURAGED.
So instead of skill stacking, why don't we make it appealing to run guns, as in run guns and get some decent tank too.
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
11754
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Posted - 2014.07.10 21:28:00 -
[21] - Quote
XxGhazbaranxX wrote:hello,
Recently CCP posted in their Hotfix charlie post that skill stacking was a bug. Any true vehicle user knows that skill stacking has always been a game mchanic and was not a bug at all. Back when turret operation used to give 2% to damage, it was ideal for pilot/driver and the gunner to both have skills maxed out.
Currently there has been a witch hunt going on about ADS pilots and gunners stacking skills but the reality of the situation is that these are rarely seen in matches. Out of every 3 matches I see 1 ADS with a gunner. Even so, Having a gunner is only beneficial because they can stack. The loss of tank involved in having a gunner, specially in the python, is only justifiable by the fact that the team can get in, deal damage and get out. Even truer now that the incubus damage profiles got switched to take on full swarm damage 80/120 and can be challenged even by militia swarms.
On top of it all, for the stacking to be truly as dangerous as many of the "bug removal advocates" say, both pilots need to be maxed out and even then, the DPS output is just enough to compete with similar weapon systems taking into consideration the drawbacks involved with reducing the tank on an ADS. With an investment of 2.4 million SP each (4.8 combined), the same as getting a proto suit, stacking existence is justified by SP to entry and isk to entry barrier that only the most dedicated pilots and gunners are willing to achieve; which consequently, aren't many.
The sentiment of the forums does not reflect the reality of gameplay. This mechanic which was never considered a bug until now, is not as detrimental to the game as some threads might suggest. The evidence is in game. It's not something everyone does, it's something with a high entry barrier and CCP should do some digging around before they put the bug label on a mechanic that has existed and was iterated upon when the developers chose which skills stack and which don't.
Its a shame that Tankers or LAV pilots did not get skill stackings bonuses......
Certainly dropships were the only ones able to take advantage of this given the inherent and comparable T2 nature of their vehicles.
If Marauder HAV applied a 2% Armour resistance per level to the HAV per pilot would you really suggest that such a vehicle is based of intended mechanics?
"So you came back......My son, my Udorian son.....bearing the filthy blood of his heathen mother." - Eaderan Ouryon
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DUST Fiend
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
14561
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Posted - 2014.07.10 21:31:00 -
[22] - Quote
Larry Desmo wrote:it seems like it should work that way, might as well get an advantage for spending all that sp, no reason to change it
You spend those SP to be a good pilot, not to break turrets beyond their intended capabilities
The Future
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XxGhazbaranxX
Eternal Beings
Proficiency V.
1674
|
Posted - 2014.07.10 23:02:00 -
[23] - Quote
I like how everyone keeps calling it a bug even though It was in all vehicle iterations. It's not pushing turrets beyond their intended capabilities because CCP intended the skills to stack. Even before the "NEW" vehicle balance stacking was a a thing and CCP was aware of it.
@DUST FIEND: You can keep saying it's a crutch and that it's not intended but the reality is that CCP chose which skills stack and which don't. Or haven't you noticed how proficiency doesn't stack but ammo capacity does. It was an active choice by the developers. You wont get your turret fittings reduction. CCP made the game the way it was and they will say this was a bug because many people, with you spearheading the campaign, started saying it was. I guess you just got tired of being beat by teamwork since I always see you solo.
Plasma Cannon Advocate
Dust 514 Survivor
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DUST Fiend
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
14562
|
Posted - 2014.07.10 23:08:00 -
[24] - Quote
XxGhazbaranxX wrote:I like how everyone keeps calling it a bug even though It was in all vehicle iterations. It's not pushing turrets beyond their intended capabilities because CCP intended the skills to stack. Even before the "NEW" vehicle balance stacking was a a thing and CCP was aware of it. @DUST FIEND: You can keep saying it's a crutch and that it's not intended but the reality is that CCP chose which skills stack and which don't. Or haven't you noticed how proficiency doesn't stack but ammo capacity does. It was an active choice by the developers. You wont get your turret fittings reduction. CCP made the game the way it was and they will say this was a bug because many people, with you spearheading the campaign, started saying it was. I guess you just got tired of being beat by teamwork since I always see you solo. DUST Fiend wrote:Larry Desmo wrote:it seems like it should work that way, might as well get an advantage for spending all that sp, no reason to change it You spend those SP to be a good pilot, not to break turrets beyond their intended capabilities It's not breaking. I dont know how many times I can say this. If it wasn't intended then how come there are skills that stack and skills that don't? I've given the example, proficiency doesn't stack but ammo capacity does. In previous vehicle iterations when you got turret operation you had 2% damage increase per level and and the skill stacked with pilot/driver and gunner. So your argument is only that it's a bug and that it's a breaking turrets while I give you evidence to the contrary based on it actively being selected what skills stack and what skills don't.
It's not teamwork. It's abusing a bug to push turrets past their intended capabilities. Teamwork is using your side gunners to give you more coverage and better feedback by communicating with them. It's picking them up and dropping them off. It's rotating your ship when their clip runs dry so the other gunner can apply damage while they reload.
All those things you currently do, are teamwork. Pushing turrets past their intended capabilities, are not.
Sorry, but when the guy who's spearheading the games balance lists the bug as a bug, I'm inclined to believe that the bug is a bug. Don't worry though, no client side patches are coming for a good long while, so you can enjoy your bug and feel skilled while doing it
o7
The Future
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XxGhazbaranxX
Eternal Beings
Proficiency V.
1674
|
Posted - 2014.07.10 23:09:00 -
[25] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:
Its a shame that Tankers or LAV pilots did not get skill stackings bonuses......
Certainly dropships were the only ones able to take advantage of this given the inherent and comparable T2 nature of their vehicles.
If Marauder HAV applied a 2% Armour resistance per level to the HAV per pilot would you really suggest that such a vehicle is based of intended mechanics?
LAV and tanks don't have this because their vehicles don't have any bonuses to anything yet if you have ammo capacity it stacks. The problem here was that tankers and LAV user got no bonuses not that they actually stack.
Plasma Cannon Advocate
Dust 514 Survivor
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XxGhazbaranxX
Eternal Beings
Proficiency V.
1674
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Posted - 2014.07.10 23:13:00 -
[26] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:
It's not breaking. I dont know how many times I can say this. If it wasn't intended then how come there are skills that stack and skills that don't? I've given the example, proficiency doesn't stack but ammo capacity does. In previous vehicle iterations when you got turret operation you had 2% damage increase per level and and the skill stacked with pilot/driver and gunner. So your argument is only that it's a bug and that it's a breaking turrets while I give you evidence to the contrary based on it actively being selected what skills stack and what skills don't.
It's not teamwork. It's abusing a bug to push turrets past their intended capabilities. Teamwork is using your side gunners to give you more coverage and better feedback by communicating with them. It's picking them up and dropping them off. It's rotating your ship when their clip runs dry so the other gunner can apply damage while they reload.
All those things you currently do, are teamwork. Pushing turrets past their intended capabilities, are not.
Sorry, but when the guy who's spearheading the games balance lists the bug as a bug, I'm inclined to believe that the bug is a bug. Don't worry though, no client side patches are coming for a good long while, so you can enjoy your bug and feel skilled while doing it
o7
You keep saying it's a bug and I gave you evidence to the contrary. The guy spearheading change has been know to make the mistake of listening to the wrong people just like when he nerfed the scouts intel capabilites and left them being able to brick tank. The problem they had was brick tanking yet he changed something that had nothing to do with it. Meanwhile Brick tanked scouts are still a problem. Just because People that rarely play the game call for a certain change doesn't mean it right.
I gave you my evidence that it wasnt a bug and that it had been a vehicle design since before ADS had their bonus and you have not given me evidence to the contrary which is a the main difference between our arguments. I give you proof and reason and you just keep repeating the same thing in hopes that it makes it true.
It's sad to see that in the game the sqeekiest wheel gets the oil even though their argument has no basis at all.
Plasma Cannon Advocate
Dust 514 Survivor
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
11759
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Posted - 2014.07.10 23:16:00 -
[27] - Quote
XxGhazbaranxX wrote:True Adamance wrote:
Its a shame that Tankers or LAV pilots did not get skill stackings bonuses......
Certainly dropships were the only ones able to take advantage of this given the inherent and comparable T2 nature of their vehicles.
If Marauder HAV applied a 2% Armour resistance per level to the HAV per pilot would you really suggest that such a vehicle is based of intended mechanics?
LAV and tanks don't have this because their vehicles don't have any bonuses to anything yet if you have ammo capacity it stacks. The problem here was that tankers and LAV user got no bonuses not that they actually stack.
If they did they would have been so ridiculously over powered it would not have been funny.
Additionally I have been on the receiving end of Cyrius Li Moody and 2 Gunners. I dont feel an ADS should have the level of DPS and Impunity to return fire that those 3 had.
However I could understand if all vehicles received stackable benefits. Howver at this time..... its not really possible to justify having one vehicle type with this kind of huge advantage.
"So you came back......My son, my Udorian son.....bearing the filthy blood of his heathen mother." - Eaderan Ouryon
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DUST Fiend
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
14562
|
Posted - 2014.07.10 23:16:00 -
[28] - Quote
You're such a baby, I can't believe people seriously need that bonus to feel effective. I feel bad for you.
You bring up "evidence" of past decisions, yet almost all of those changes are gone. Most of our vehicle variants are gone, and the entire way vehicles were presented is gone.
I don't care about this enough to argue it with you, I'm just happy to see a blue finally confirm the bug as a bug. It's a win for me in my book, and it's a win for you because your crutch is going to stay for many more months at least.
Win win
The Future
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Spademan
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
2140
|
Posted - 2014.07.10 23:16:00 -
[29] - Quote
I always figured that skills only apply from the guy using the gun to the gun he's using.
That's how it used to work, right?
I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special.
Official Time Lord of the Scout Community
|
XxGhazbaranxX
Eternal Beings
Proficiency V.
1674
|
Posted - 2014.07.10 23:25:00 -
[30] - Quote
Spademan wrote:I always figured that skills only apply from the guy using the gun to the gun he's using.
That's how it used to work, right?
Stacking skills with gunners has always been a part of the game. This is just the new witch hunt created by people who barely know how this game developed during the years its existed. Creating baseless arguments to suit their gaming needs when they play once a week without actually understanding how something works. Pushing for changes in all the wrong categories creating holes in the developers time and blinding them from the real problems that exist throughout the game.
DUST Fiend wrote:You're such a baby, I can't believe people seriously need that bonus to feel effective. I feel bad for you.
You bring up "evidence" of past decisions, yet almost all of those changes are gone. Most of our vehicle variants are gone, and the entire way vehicles were presented is gone.
I don't care about this enough to argue it with you, I'm just happy to see a blue finally confirm the bug as a bug. It's a win for me in my book, and it's a win for you because your crutch is going to stay for many more months at least.
Win win
Personal attacks because you can't find any undeniable proof that you are right yet I give an argument based on evidence has made me lose all respect I had for you. Past decision are not past since they are current decisions that exist in game now and you guys are pushing towards eliminating so please; it's not past decisions, it's current decisions you disagree with.
True Adamance wrote:
If they did they would have been so ridiculously over powered it would not have been funny.
Additionally I have been on the receiving end of Cyrius Li Moody and 2 Gunners. I dont feel an ADS should have the level of DPS and Impunity to return fire that those 3 had.
However I could understand if all vehicles received stackable benefits. Howver at this time..... its not really possible to justify having one vehicle type with this kind of huge advantage.
It's rarely without impunity. A python with three gunners can barely breake 2500 shields while an incubus with 2 gunners can barely break 3500 armor. My Wyrkomi breach forge gun does 2900 damage to armor in one shot. Barely impunity if you half decent with A/V.
Plasma Cannon Advocate
Dust 514 Survivor
|
|
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DUST Fiend
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
14562
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Posted - 2014.07.10 23:28:00 -
[31] - Quote
XxGhazbaranxX wrote: has made me lose all respect I had for you.
The part of me that cares? Yea, it doesn't.
I'm just happy to see CCP acknowledge the bug, and until a blue agrees with you, I'm gonna chalk this up as a win for the good guys.
The Future
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Spademan
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
2140
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Posted - 2014.07.10 23:36:00 -
[32] - Quote
XxGhazbaranxX wrote:Spademan wrote:I always figured that skills only apply from the guy using the gun to the gun he's using.
That's how it used to work, right? Stacking skills with gunners has always been a part of the game. This is just the new witch hunt created by people who barely know how this game developed during the years its existed. Creating baseless arguments to suit their gaming needs when they play once a week without actually understanding how something works. Pushing for changes in all the wrong categories creating holes in the developers time and blinding them from the real problems that exist throughout the game.
Really? Even in early uprising? Chromosome?
I remember being told before the resuffle of skills that it work liked that.
Oh well.
If you ask me I'd have either it work the way I thought it did or have Pilot skills affect all.
But hey, not a game dev.
I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special.
Official Time Lord of the Scout Community
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aaaasdff ertgfdd
Brutor Vanguard
Minmatar Republic
87
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Posted - 2014.07.10 23:41:00 -
[33] - Quote
XxGhazbaranxX wrote:hello,
Recently CCP posted in their Hotfix charlie post that skill stacking was a bug. Any true vehicle user knows that skill stacking has always been a game mchanic and was not a bug at all. Back when turret operation used to give 2% to damage, it was ideal for pilot/driver and the gunner to both have skills maxed out.
Currently there has been a witch hunt going on about ADS pilots and gunners stacking skills but the reality of the situation is that these are rarely seen in matches. Out of every 3 matches I see 1 ADS with a gunner. Even so, Having a gunner is only beneficial because they can stack. The loss of tank involved in having a gunner, specially in the python, is only justifiable by the fact that the team can get in, deal damage and get out. Even truer now that the incubus damage profiles got switched to take on full swarm damage 80/120 and can be challenged even by militia swarms.
On top of it all, for the stacking to be truly as dangerous as many of the "bug removal advocates" say, both pilots need to be maxed out and even then, the DPS output is just enough to compete with similar weapon systems taking into consideration the drawbacks involved with reducing the tank on an ADS. With an investment of 2.4 million SP each (4.8 combined), the same as getting a proto suit, stacking existence is justified by SP to entry and isk to entry barrier that only the most dedicated pilots and gunners are willing to achieve; which consequently, aren't many.
The sentiment of the forums does not reflect the reality of gameplay. This mechanic which was never considered a bug until now, is not as detrimental to the game as some threads might suggest. The evidence is in game. It's not something everyone does, it's something with a high entry barrier and CCP should do some digging around before they put the bug label on a mechanic that has existed and was iterated upon when the developers chose which skills stack and which don't.
I dont care if its a bug or not, it needs to go. Its not just damage, its the rate of fire stacking as well. 2 gunners is greatly more powerful than one when attacking a tank or other vehicle. In most of these cases those vehicles have no defensive capability to a vehicle directly over head and the only, thing that gives them a possibility for survival is to evade.
When skills are stacked in this manner ttk is so fast it makes evasion impossible. Bug or not it needs to go. This is very true for pythons and missles. We all know there is very little comp between pythons and missles and anything else that flies. |
XxGhazbaranxX
Eternal Beings
Proficiency V.
1674
|
Posted - 2014.07.10 23:42:00 -
[34] - Quote
Spademan wrote:
Really? Even in early uprising? Chromosome?
I remember being told before the resuffle of skills that it work liked that.
Oh well.
If you ask me I'd have either it work the way I thought it did or have Pilot skills affect all.
But hey, not a game dev.
Yes. Skill stacking was always in existence; at least in early uprising. I don't want to say chromo because although I played chromo since the first day of open beta, I am not entirely sure.
Plasma Cannon Advocate
Dust 514 Survivor
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aaaasdff ertgfdd
Brutor Vanguard
Minmatar Republic
87
|
Posted - 2014.07.10 23:50:00 -
[35] - Quote
XxGhazbaranxX wrote:Spademan wrote:I always figured that skills only apply from the guy using the gun to the gun he's using.
That's how it used to work, right? Stacking skills with gunners has always been a part of the game. This is just the new witch hunt created by people who barely know how this game developed during the years its existed. Creating baseless arguments to suit their gaming needs when they play once a week without actually understanding how something works. Pushing for changes in all the wrong categories creating holes in the developers time and blinding them from the real problems that exist throughout the game. DUST Fiend wrote:You're such a baby, I can't believe people seriously need that bonus to feel effective. I feel bad for you.
You bring up "evidence" of past decisions, yet almost all of those changes are gone. Most of our vehicle variants are gone, and the entire way vehicles were presented is gone.
I don't care about this enough to argue it with you, I'm just happy to see a blue finally confirm the bug as a bug. It's a win for me in my book, and it's a win for you because your crutch is going to stay for many more months at least.
Win win Personal attacks because you can't find any undeniable proof that you are right yet I give an argument based on evidence has made me lose all respect I had for you. Past decision are not past since they are current decisions that exist in game now and you guys are pushing towards eliminating so please; it's not past decisions, it's current decisions you disagree with. True Adamance wrote:
If they did they would have been so ridiculously over powered it would not have been funny.
Additionally I have been on the receiving end of Cyrius Li Moody and 2 Gunners. I dont feel an ADS should have the level of DPS and Impunity to return fire that those 3 had.
However I could understand if all vehicles received stackable benefits. Howver at this time..... its not really possible to justify having one vehicle type with this kind of huge advantage.
It's rarely without impunity. A python with three gunners can barely breake 2500 shields while an incubus with 2 gunners can barely break 3300 armor. My Wyrkomi breach forge gun does 2900 damage to armor in one shot. Barely impunity if your half decent with A/V.
Yes, but you are comparing the defensive capability of a forge gun, to the offensive capability of a python with missles and 3 gunners. By your own argument he can one shot you, so being able to stack bonuses would not make you any less susceptible to his forgegun. Also with a shield hardner active, and considering the forge does less to shields, you will more than likely survive that first shot. Being that charge time for that forge gun is so long and you are unable to walk while charging, im sure a skilled pilot can take those six seconds to evade, relay the forge guns position to your squad and have him killed, or better yet hot drop those 2 extra gunners on his head and kill him outright. Unless you dont think vehicles should need support? Should you be able to solo the team? |
XxGhazbaranxX
Eternal Beings
Proficiency V.
1674
|
Posted - 2014.07.10 23:56:00 -
[36] - Quote
aaaasdff ertgfdd wrote:
Yes, but you are comparing the defensive capability of a forge gun, to the offensive capability of a python with missles and 3 gunners. By your own argument he can one shot you, so being able to stack bonuses would not make you any less susceptible to his forgegun.
What I said was that having more gunners makes the ADS more week and to impress on that I gave some tanking (defense) numbers for comparison against the forge gun damage implying that I can almost 1 shot a 3 gunner ADS.
Plasma Cannon Advocate
Dust 514 Survivor
|
aaaasdff ertgfdd
Brutor Vanguard
Minmatar Republic
88
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Posted - 2014.07.11 00:00:00 -
[37] - Quote
XxGhazbaranxX wrote:aaaasdff ertgfdd wrote:
Yes, but you are comparing the defensive capability of a forge gun, to the offensive capability of a python with missles and 3 gunners. By your own argument he can one shot you, so being able to stack bonuses would not make you any less susceptible to his forgegun.
What I said was that having more gunners makes the ADS more week and to impress on that I gave some tanking (defense) numbers for comparison against the forge gun damage implying that I can almost 1 shot a 3 gunner ADS.
Makes it weaker on hp. But makes it considerably stronger on all offensive fronts. See thats the trade off. With 3 gunners your rate of fire on a single target is trippled without the bonus. So is your damage, clipsize, and ammo capacity. Not to mention more eyes in the sky, someone to look at the tac map, and more angles of fire, increasing better positioning and amount of targets simultaneously able to be engaged. You must consider all aspects. Not just the ones you do not like. |
One Eyed King
Land of the BIind
2451
|
Posted - 2014.07.11 00:16:00 -
[38] - Quote
aaaasdff ertgfdd wrote:XxGhazbaranxX wrote:aaaasdff ertgfdd wrote:
Yes, but you are comparing the defensive capability of a forge gun, to the offensive capability of a python with missles and 3 gunners. By your own argument he can one shot you, so being able to stack bonuses would not make you any less susceptible to his forgegun.
What I said was that having more gunners makes the ADS more week and to impress on that I gave some tanking (defense) numbers for comparison against the forge gun damage implying that I can almost 1 shot a 3 gunner ADS. Makes it weaker on hp. But makes it considerably stronger on all offensive fronts. See thats the trade off. With 3 gunners your rate of fire on a single target is trippled without the bonus. So is your damage, clipsize, and ammo capacity. Not to mention more eyes in the sky, someone to look at the tac map, and more angles of fire, increasing better positioning and amount of targets simultaneously able to be engaged. You must consider all aspects. Not just the ones you do not like.
But then he would have to concede that it is OP and needs removed, bug or not.
And on that point, if CCP says its a bug, its a bug.
This is how a minja feels
|
Finn Colman
Immortal Guides
32
|
Posted - 2014.07.11 03:14:00 -
[39] - Quote
I'm not sure if I just feel bad because of the ****-ish way that DUST Fiend was acting, but I kind of want to support Ghazbaran again...
Either way, I think there should be stacking, but it should only be partial stacking and only with certain skills. Whatever is done, we also need to remember that there are still beginners. |
DUST Fiend
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
14564
|
Posted - 2014.07.11 03:21:00 -
[40] - Quote
Finn Colman wrote:I'm not sure if I just feel bad because of the ****-ish way that DUST Fiend was acting, but I kind of want to support Ghazbaran again...
Sorry, you're gonna have to speak up, I can't hear you over the sound of Ghazbaran's denial
The Future
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|
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Beld Errmon
1768
|
Posted - 2014.07.11 03:28:00 -
[41] - Quote
If you must keep saying that its not a bug because its been around for a long time then I'm gunna have to keep pointing out that just because a bug is around for a long time doesn't make it a feature, HMG users can reload quicker by sprinting half way through the reload animation, been around for ages, its not a feature its a bug.
redline timer bugs out and displays wrong when you fly in there, its been around for a long time, its not a feature its a bug.
Previous stacking applied to turret operation not the dropship skill, the fact that they messed up the way skills apply between pilot and gunner does not make it a feature, it was never listed as a feature in any description or patch note, and theres a big difference between stacking a 10% dmg bonus and a 20% dmg buff + 100% ROF buff.
and seeming as we are rehashing the same points, do you really think its fair and balanced that your side gunner kicks out 4 times the DPS of a Protorail tank? because I barely think its fair my front gun kicks out 2 times the dps, but atleast my front gun will overheat before its halfway through the clip, I suspect your side gunners don't overheat at all or manage to fire 20 out of 24 shots before they do.
Pilot - Tanker - FOTM (insert here)
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Moochie Cricket
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
743
|
Posted - 2014.07.11 03:34:00 -
[42] - Quote
Beld Errmon wrote:does your gunner even overheat the rail before he empties the clip? because looking at these numbers and i'm not great with math, but with the stacked skills a proto rail on a maxed incubus is doing 4,168 dmg per second, 12,504 dmg for the entire clip
hell a large proto rail only does about 1060 dps without a dmg mod, large blasters are like 700 odd if i remember right... how can you really defend this bug?
I can defend it very easily.
1.) Huge SP sink for two people
2.) Requires a large amount of teamwork to work properly
3.) Requires two people to do the job an adept ads pilot can do on his own
4.) Two ads dropships > one ads with a gunner
5.) Gives an incentive to use gunners
6.) Greatly lowers your potential tank
7.) Look in PC battles at the highest level. This is where anything is done to win and FOTM rules supreme. If these stacking skills were OP you would see it everywhere, and I have yet to see anyone use this tactic in PC, myself included.
Myself and derrith occasionally gun for each other in pubs, not because it is super effective or op, but because it is FUN.
GLORY TO THE STATE
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Atiim
Fooly Cooly.
Anime Empire.
10361
|
Posted - 2014.07.11 04:08:00 -
[43] - Quote
Moochie Cricket wrote:
I can defend it very easily.
1.) Huge SP sink for two people
2.) Requires a large amount of teamwork to work properly
3.) Requires two people to do the job an adept ads pilot can do on his own
4.) Two ads dropships > one ads with a gunner
5.) Gives an incentive to use gunners
6.) Greatly lowers your potential tank
7.) Look in PC battles at the highest level. This is where anything is done to win and FOTM rules supreme. If these stacking skills were OP you would see it everywhere, and I have yet to see anyone use this tactic in PC, myself included.
*Cracks Knuckles*
1.) SP is irrelevant in terms of balance.
2.) Teamwork constitutes and advantage, not a "Win Button"
3.) See above.
4.) Not really.
5.) There are other incentives to fit gunners, so this is a moot point.
6.) 1 sacrifice for 3 gains(2x Damage, RoF, and Ammunition), so this is yet another mute point.
7.) Quantity does not equate to Quality, so this is a Logical Fallacy.
Moochie Cricket wrote:
EDIT:
Ask yourself this...
Would you (as an infantry AV player or tanker) rather face a single ads with a side gunner attacking you, or two ads attacking you. I know what I would choose, and it is not having to face two targets with a combined ehp of ~8000 rather than the single target with ~3500 ehp.
Any Swarm Launcher user who actually knows what they're doing would pick two ADSs, as you can handle them one at a time, and can suppress them both (if need be) simultaneously with an Assault Swarm Launcher, while the Skill Stacked ADS will kill you instantaneously without any reasonable chance to fight back.
Long Live The Anime Empire
"You know what? You really, REALLY, like to dampen the mood" - Lea Silencio
-HAND
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DUST Fiend
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
14566
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Posted - 2014.07.11 05:05:00 -
[44] - Quote
Moochie Cricket wrote:
1.) Huge SP sink for two people
2.) Requires a large amount of teamwork to work properly
3.) Requires two people to do the job an adept ads pilot can do on his own
4.) Two ads dropships > one ads with a gunner
5.) Gives an incentive to use gunners
6.) Greatly lowers your potential tank
7.) Look in PC battles at the highest level. This is where anything is done to win and FOTM rules supreme. If these stacking skills were OP you would see it everywhere, and I have yet to see anyone use this tactic in PC, myself included.
1.) If both players are pilots, it's not an SP sink, it's what's required to push your bird to it's maximum, which all pilots should strive for. Saying it's an SP sink just alludes to the fact that you would rather double the efficiency of a side turret then actually use your SP for what it was intended for
2.) It actually takes less teamwork than non bugged turrets, since you have to stay on target less, stay in the hot zone for shorter periods of time, reload faster, have huge pools of ammo...etc etc. Basically the bug dramatically reduces what normally would indeed be a teamwork intensive task
3.) This is straight bull ****. No solo pilot will EVER accomplish what bugged side turrets will accomplish because his front turret isn't bugged, and will only ever be half as effective as your bugged side turret.
4.) Again, not true. Those two ships each have to be called out, they have to watch out for each other to not crash especially when being hit by AV, and their main turret only fires half as fast as your bugged side turret. Also, this adds to their vehicle quota
5.) The only reason there is little incentive for side gunners is how obnoxious the fitting cost for small turrets is, and that's not a dropship exclusive issue. If this were addressed there would be plenty of incentive to have a gunner without relying on a bug to feel relevant.
6.) "Greatly" is kind of an overstatement, at least for one side turret which is all you need. And yet again, this comes back to small turrets being too PG/CPU intensive, which as stated, isn't dropship exclusive.
7.) PC battles are actually some of the only places I've seen the tactic, because that's where it's most viable. You abuse the RoF to do sweeps on enemy vehicles and you don't have to be too concerned with having a skilled pilot because usually a single pass is enough to destroy any vehicle before your gunner overheats or has to reload.
All in all the bug lowers the amount of teamwork and skill required, and inflates peoples sense of skill. This is one bug that I am very eager to watch get fixed so skilled pilots and gunners can actually stand out again.
The Future
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XxGhazbaranxX
Eternal Beings
Proficiency V.
1684
|
Posted - 2014.07.11 06:19:00 -
[45] - Quote
Beld Errmon wrote:If you must keep saying that its not a bug because its been around for a long time then I'm gunna have to keep pointing out that just because a bug is around for a long time doesn't make it a feature, HMG users can reload quicker by sprinting half way through the reload animation, been around for ages, its not a feature its a bug.
redline timer bugs out and displays wrong when you fly in there, its been around for a long time, its not a feature its a bug.
Previous stacking applied to turret operation not the dropship skill, the fact that they messed up the way skills apply between pilot and gunner does not make it a feature, it was never listed as a feature in any description or patch note, and theres a big difference between stacking a 10% dmg bonus and a 20% dmg buff + 100% ROF buff.
and seeming as we are rehashing the same points, do you really think its fair and balanced that your side gunner kicks out 4 times the DPS of a Protorail tank? because I barely think its fair my front gun kicks out 2 times the dps, but atleast my front gun will overheat before its halfway through the clip, I suspect your side gunners don't overheat at all or manage to fire 20 out of 24 shots before they do.
While I would Like to say that your argument does contain some logic we also have to view that There re skills that stack and skills that don't. Like I've said many times throughout the thread, the simple fact that there are skills that stack (ammo capacity) and skills that don't (turret proficiency), we can only come to the conclusion that CCP had made an active choice on which skills stack and which don't.
@Moockie Cricket: If you notice when they try to contradict you they do not give you specific reasons for it being irrelevant and this is where I give reasons for example:
Atiim wrote:
*Cracks Knuckles*
1.) SP is irrelevant in terms of balance.
2.) Teamwork constitutes and advantage, not a "Win Button"
3.) See above.
4.) Not really.
5.) There are other incentives to fit gunners, so this is a moot point.
6.) 1 sacrifice for 3 gains(2x Damage, RoF, and Ammunition), so this is yet another mute point.
7.) Quantity does not equate to Quality, so this is a Logical Fallacy.
- while you, Atiim state that SP is irrelevant in terms of balance, then we could also assume there is no need for different skill tiers and therefore CCPs decision to make it more difficult to obtain different skills is not taken into consideration when it comes to balance. Yet CCP did decide to include different SP tier to different things to "Balance" certain items based on SP entry hurdles and roadblocks. More powerful items require a bigger SP investment
- While Teamwork does constitute an advantage, not an I WIN Button, as you so eloquently express, the same is applied for anti-vehicle work. In the same way that Two people can kill infantry, the same is true with AV. If it's two people VS two people, then the ones on the ground with AV have the advantage of destroying or thwarting the ADS since they can see and attack the ADS way before the ADS can see them.
- While incuding a "see above" it just demonstrates an inability to give well though out reasons for your thoughts. While, yes it takes two people, thos two people do not own an I win button which you, again, so eloquently express.
- Not really? Well this is where your incorrect. You see the net increase in damage by having a gunner is the sum of gunner and pilot. SO the gunner in theory is doing damage for both himself and the pilot. All the while, the dropship itself does not have double the HP. If you in theory where to engage two separate dropships then they would be able to kill the AV because the AV cannot attack both dropships at the same time.
- The only real incentive to having a gunner is that they have increased DPS compared to the front turret. If the pilot with an extra gunner flies with the front turret in mind he loses DPS based on difficulty of use and because the side turret will not have good shots half the time. Why have a side gun if it can do what you can already do? That is the real question. Unlike tanks, that the gunner will be looking at the target for most of the engagement, the ADS does not have that luxury. Even if diving, the engagement time is not enough to be viable even now when the skill does stack.
- While looking at it through the viewpoint of 1 dropship, this does seem like it's unbalanced but you have to look at it from the view of two dropships. Two fully specced pilots capable of using two maxed out ADS and choose to use one, results in a net 60% reduction in total tank (combined since it is one ADS worth of HP off the skies and the HP the remaining ADS can't fit due to the turret), not to mention the loss of ability to have the damage divided between the two vessels since AV is going to have to be focused on two ships instead of one. SO in total this aspect you claim to be unbalanced, if viewed closely is not, in fact, unbalanced.
- Quantity does not equate to quality but the fact is that PC is a cesspool of everything that is broken in the game. The simple truth of it not being widely used there, or anywhere else in the game, is proof enough that the mechanic is not detrimental to the game at all and that this is all just a pointless witch hunt.
Plasma Cannon Advocate
Dust 514 Survivor
|
DUST Fiend
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
14567
|
Posted - 2014.07.11 16:26:00 -
[46] - Quote
XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Quantity does not equate to quality but the fact is that PC is a cesspool of everything that is broken in the game. The simple truth of it not being widely used there, or anywhere else in the game, is proof enough that the mechanic is not detrimental to the game at all and that this is all just a pointless witch hunt.
[/list]
Except that it gets used plenty by top corps because it's how you destroy vehicles effortlessly.
The reason you don't see it as often is because dropship pilots are still fairly rare, especially maxed pilots, and then you have to get them together. On top of that, you have to find players willing to utilize bugged game mechanics. This leads to a small pool of players using the bug, not because it's balanced, but because there is simply a small pool of people that actually meet all the requirements to do so.
The Future
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