DUST Search - Skill Stacking

XxGhazbaranxX wrote:

Spademan wrote:

I always figured that skills only apply from the guy using the gun to the gun he's using.
That's how it used to work, right?

Stacking skills with gunners has always been a part of the game. This is just the new witch hunt created by people who barely know how this game developed during the years its existed. Creating baseless arguments to suit their gaming needs when they play once a week without actually understanding how something works. Pushing for changes in all the wrong categories creating holes in the developers time and blinding them from the real problems that exist throughout the game.

DUST Fiend wrote:

You're such a baby, I can't believe people seriously need that bonus to feel effective. I feel bad for you.

You bring up "evidence" of past decisions, yet almost all of those changes are gone. Most of our vehicle variants are gone, and the entire way vehicles were presented is gone.

I don't care about this enough to argue it with you, I'm just happy to see a blue finally confirm the bug as a bug. It's a win for me in my book, and it's a win for you because your crutch is going to stay for many more months at least.

Win win

Personal attacks because you can't find any undeniable proof that you are right yet I give an argument based on evidence has made me lose all respect I had for you. Past decision are not past since they are current decisions that exist in game now and you guys are pushing towards eliminating so please; it's not past decisions, it's current decisions you disagree with.

True Adamance wrote:

If they did they would have been so ridiculously over powered it would not have been funny.

Additionally I have been on the receiving end of Cyrius Li Moody and 2 Gunners. I dont feel an ADS should have the level of DPS and Impunity to return fire that those 3 had.

However I could understand if all vehicles received stackable benefits. Howver at this time..... its not really possible to justify having one vehicle type with this kind of huge advantage.

It's rarely without impunity. A python with three gunners can barely breake 2500 shields while an incubus with 2 gunners can barely break 3300 armor. My Wyrkomi breach forge gun does 2900 damage to armor in one shot. Barely impunity if your half decent with A/V.

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DUST Fiend Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 14562	Posted - 2014.07.10 23:28:00 - [31] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: has made me lose all respect I had for you. The part of me that cares? Yea, it doesn't. I'm just happy to see CCP acknowledge the bug, and until a blue agrees with you, I'm gonna chalk this up as a win for the good guys. The Future
Spademan The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 2140	Posted - 2014.07.10 23:36:00 - [32] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Spademan wrote: I always figured that skills only apply from the guy using the gun to the gun he's using. That's how it used to work, right? Stacking skills with gunners has always been a part of the game. This is just the new witch hunt created by people who barely know how this game developed during the years its existed. Creating baseless arguments to suit their gaming needs when they play once a week without actually understanding how something works. Pushing for changes in all the wrong categories creating holes in the developers time and blinding them from the real problems that exist throughout the game. Really? Even in early uprising? Chromosome? I remember being told before the resuffle of skills that it work liked that. Oh well. If you ask me I'd have either it work the way I thought it did or have Pilot skills affect all. But hey, not a game dev. I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special. Official Time Lord of the Scout Community
aaaasdff ertgfdd Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 87	Posted - 2014.07.10 23:41:00 - [33] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: hello, Recently CCP posted in their Hotfix charlie post that skill stacking was a bug. Any true vehicle user knows that skill stacking has always been a game mchanic and was not a bug at all. Back when turret operation used to give 2% to damage, it was ideal for pilot/driver and the gunner to both have skills maxed out. Currently there has been a witch hunt going on about ADS pilots and gunners stacking skills but the reality of the situation is that these are rarely seen in matches. Out of every 3 matches I see 1 ADS with a gunner. Even so, Having a gunner is only beneficial because they can stack. The loss of tank involved in having a gunner, specially in the python, is only justifiable by the fact that the team can get in, deal damage and get out. Even truer now that the incubus damage profiles got switched to take on full swarm damage 80/120 and can be challenged even by militia swarms. On top of it all, for the stacking to be truly as dangerous as many of the "bug removal advocates" say, both pilots need to be maxed out and even then, the DPS output is just enough to compete with similar weapon systems taking into consideration the drawbacks involved with reducing the tank on an ADS. With an investment of 2.4 million SP each (4.8 combined), the same as getting a proto suit, stacking existence is justified by SP to entry and isk to entry barrier that only the most dedicated pilots and gunners are willing to achieve; which consequently, aren't many. The sentiment of the forums does not reflect the reality of gameplay. This mechanic which was never considered a bug until now, is not as detrimental to the game as some threads might suggest. The evidence is in game. It's not something everyone does, it's something with a high entry barrier and CCP should do some digging around before they put the bug label on a mechanic that has existed and was iterated upon when the developers chose which skills stack and which don't. I dont care if its a bug or not, it needs to go. Its not just damage, its the rate of fire stacking as well. 2 gunners is greatly more powerful than one when attacking a tank or other vehicle. In most of these cases those vehicles have no defensive capability to a vehicle directly over head and the only, thing that gives them a possibility for survival is to evade. When skills are stacked in this manner ttk is so fast it makes evasion impossible. Bug or not it needs to go. This is very true for pythons and missles. We all know there is very little comp between pythons and missles and anything else that flies.
XxGhazbaranxX Eternal Beings Proficiency V. 1674	Posted - 2014.07.10 23:42:00 - [34] - Quote Spademan wrote: Really? Even in early uprising? Chromosome? I remember being told before the resuffle of skills that it work liked that. Oh well. If you ask me I'd have either it work the way I thought it did or have Pilot skills affect all. But hey, not a game dev. Yes. Skill stacking was always in existence; at least in early uprising. I don't want to say chromo because although I played chromo since the first day of open beta, I am not entirely sure. Plasma Cannon Advocate Dust 514 Survivor
aaaasdff ertgfdd Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 87	Posted - 2014.07.10 23:50:00 - [35] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Spademan wrote: I always figured that skills only apply from the guy using the gun to the gun he's using. That's how it used to work, right? Stacking skills with gunners has always been a part of the game. This is just the new witch hunt created by people who barely know how this game developed during the years its existed. Creating baseless arguments to suit their gaming needs when they play once a week without actually understanding how something works. Pushing for changes in all the wrong categories creating holes in the developers time and blinding them from the real problems that exist throughout the game. DUST Fiend wrote: You're such a baby, I can't believe people seriously need that bonus to feel effective. I feel bad for you. You bring up "evidence" of past decisions, yet almost all of those changes are gone. Most of our vehicle variants are gone, and the entire way vehicles were presented is gone. I don't care about this enough to argue it with you, I'm just happy to see a blue finally confirm the bug as a bug. It's a win for me in my book, and it's a win for you because your crutch is going to stay for many more months at least. Win win Personal attacks because you can't find any undeniable proof that you are right yet I give an argument based on evidence has made me lose all respect I had for you. Past decision are not past since they are current decisions that exist in game now and you guys are pushing towards eliminating so please; it's not past decisions, it's current decisions you disagree with. True Adamance wrote: If they did they would have been so ridiculously over powered it would not have been funny. Additionally I have been on the receiving end of Cyrius Li Moody and 2 Gunners. I dont feel an ADS should have the level of DPS and Impunity to return fire that those 3 had. However I could understand if all vehicles received stackable benefits. Howver at this time..... its not really possible to justify having one vehicle type with this kind of huge advantage. It's rarely without impunity. A python with three gunners can barely breake 2500 shields while an incubus with 2 gunners can barely break 3300 armor. My Wyrkomi breach forge gun does 2900 damage to armor in one shot. Barely impunity if your half decent with A/V. Yes, but you are comparing the defensive capability of a forge gun, to the offensive capability of a python with missles and 3 gunners. By your own argument he can one shot you, so being able to stack bonuses would not make you any less susceptible to his forgegun. Also with a shield hardner active, and considering the forge does less to shields, you will more than likely survive that first shot. Being that charge time for that forge gun is so long and you are unable to walk while charging, im sure a skilled pilot can take those six seconds to evade, relay the forge guns position to your squad and have him killed, or better yet hot drop those 2 extra gunners on his head and kill him outright. Unless you dont think vehicles should need support? Should you be able to solo the team?
XxGhazbaranxX Eternal Beings Proficiency V. 1674	Posted - 2014.07.10 23:56:00 - [36] - Quote aaaasdff ertgfdd wrote: Yes, but you are comparing the defensive capability of a forge gun, to the offensive capability of a python with missles and 3 gunners. By your own argument he can one shot you, so being able to stack bonuses would not make you any less susceptible to his forgegun. What I said was that having more gunners makes the ADS more week and to impress on that I gave some tanking (defense) numbers for comparison against the forge gun damage implying that I can almost 1 shot a 3 gunner ADS. Plasma Cannon Advocate Dust 514 Survivor
aaaasdff ertgfdd Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 88	Posted - 2014.07.11 00:00:00 - [37] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: aaaasdff ertgfdd wrote: Yes, but you are comparing the defensive capability of a forge gun, to the offensive capability of a python with missles and 3 gunners. By your own argument he can one shot you, so being able to stack bonuses would not make you any less susceptible to his forgegun. What I said was that having more gunners makes the ADS more week and to impress on that I gave some tanking (defense) numbers for comparison against the forge gun damage implying that I can almost 1 shot a 3 gunner ADS. Makes it weaker on hp. But makes it considerably stronger on all offensive fronts. See thats the trade off. With 3 gunners your rate of fire on a single target is trippled without the bonus. So is your damage, clipsize, and ammo capacity. Not to mention more eyes in the sky, someone to look at the tac map, and more angles of fire, increasing better positioning and amount of targets simultaneously able to be engaged. You must consider all aspects. Not just the ones you do not like.
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 2451	Posted - 2014.07.11 00:16:00 - [38] - Quote aaaasdff ertgfdd wrote: XxGhazbaranxX wrote: aaaasdff ertgfdd wrote: Yes, but you are comparing the defensive capability of a forge gun, to the offensive capability of a python with missles and 3 gunners. By your own argument he can one shot you, so being able to stack bonuses would not make you any less susceptible to his forgegun. What I said was that having more gunners makes the ADS more week and to impress on that I gave some tanking (defense) numbers for comparison against the forge gun damage implying that I can almost 1 shot a 3 gunner ADS. Makes it weaker on hp. But makes it considerably stronger on all offensive fronts. See thats the trade off. With 3 gunners your rate of fire on a single target is trippled without the bonus. So is your damage, clipsize, and ammo capacity. Not to mention more eyes in the sky, someone to look at the tac map, and more angles of fire, increasing better positioning and amount of targets simultaneously able to be engaged. You must consider all aspects. Not just the ones you do not like. But then he would have to concede that it is OP and needs removed, bug or not. And on that point, if CCP says its a bug, its a bug. This is how a minja feels
Finn Colman Immortal Guides 32	Posted - 2014.07.11 03:14:00 - [39] - Quote I'm not sure if I just feel bad because of the ****-ish way that DUST Fiend was acting, but I kind of want to support Ghazbaran again... Either way, I think there should be stacking, but it should only be partial stacking and only with certain skills. Whatever is done, we also need to remember that there are still beginners.
DUST Fiend Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 14564	Posted - 2014.07.11 03:21:00 - [40] - Quote Finn Colman wrote: I'm not sure if I just feel bad because of the ****-ish way that DUST Fiend was acting, but I kind of want to support Ghazbaran again... Sorry, you're gonna have to speak up, I can't hear you over the sound of Ghazbaran's denial The Future

Beld Errmon 1768	Posted - 2014.07.11 03:28:00 - [41] - Quote If you must keep saying that its not a bug because its been around for a long time then I'm gunna have to keep pointing out that just because a bug is around for a long time doesn't make it a feature, HMG users can reload quicker by sprinting half way through the reload animation, been around for ages, its not a feature its a bug. redline timer bugs out and displays wrong when you fly in there, its been around for a long time, its not a feature its a bug. Previous stacking applied to turret operation not the dropship skill, the fact that they messed up the way skills apply between pilot and gunner does not make it a feature, it was never listed as a feature in any description or patch note, and theres a big difference between stacking a 10% dmg bonus and a 20% dmg buff + 100% ROF buff. and seeming as we are rehashing the same points, do you really think its fair and balanced that your side gunner kicks out 4 times the DPS of a Protorail tank? because I barely think its fair my front gun kicks out 2 times the dps, but atleast my front gun will overheat before its halfway through the clip, I suspect your side gunners don't overheat at all or manage to fire 20 out of 24 shots before they do. Pilot - Tanker - FOTM (insert here)
Moochie Cricket Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 743	Posted - 2014.07.11 03:34:00 - [42] - Quote Beld Errmon wrote: does your gunner even overheat the rail before he empties the clip? because looking at these numbers and i'm not great with math, but with the stacked skills a proto rail on a maxed incubus is doing 4,168 dmg per second, 12,504 dmg for the entire clip hell a large proto rail only does about 1060 dps without a dmg mod, large blasters are like 700 odd if i remember right... how can you really defend this bug? I can defend it very easily. 1.) Huge SP sink for two people 2.) Requires a large amount of teamwork to work properly 3.) Requires two people to do the job an adept ads pilot can do on his own 4.) Two ads dropships > one ads with a gunner 5.) Gives an incentive to use gunners 6.) Greatly lowers your potential tank 7.) Look in PC battles at the highest level. This is where anything is done to win and FOTM rules supreme. If these stacking skills were OP you would see it everywhere, and I have yet to see anyone use this tactic in PC, myself included. Myself and derrith occasionally gun for each other in pubs, not because it is super effective or op, but because it is FUN. GLORY TO THE STATE
Atiim Fooly Cooly. Anime Empire. 10361	Posted - 2014.07.11 04:08:00 - [43] - Quote Moochie Cricket wrote: I can defend it very easily. 1.) Huge SP sink for two people 2.) Requires a large amount of teamwork to work properly 3.) Requires two people to do the job an adept ads pilot can do on his own 4.) Two ads dropships > one ads with a gunner 5.) Gives an incentive to use gunners 6.) Greatly lowers your potential tank 7.) Look in PC battles at the highest level. This is where anything is done to win and FOTM rules supreme. If these stacking skills were OP you would see it everywhere, and I have yet to see anyone use this tactic in PC, myself included. Cracks Knuckles 1.) SP is irrelevant in terms of balance. 2.) Teamwork constitutes and advantage, not a "Win Button" 3.) See above. 4.) Not really. 5.) There are other incentives to fit gunners, so this is a moot point. 6.) 1 sacrifice for 3 gains(2x Damage, RoF, and Ammunition), so this is yet another mute point. 7.) Quantity does not equate to Quality, so this is a Logical Fallacy. Moochie Cricket wrote: EDIT: Ask yourself this... Would you (as an infantry AV player or tanker) rather face a single ads with a side gunner attacking you, or two ads attacking you. I know what I would choose, and it is not having to face two targets with a combined ehp of ~8000 rather than the single target with ~3500 ehp. Any Swarm Launcher user who actually knows what they're doing would pick two ADSs, as you can handle them one at a time, and can suppress them both (if need be) simultaneously with an Assault Swarm Launcher, while the Skill Stacked ADS will kill you instantaneously without any reasonable chance to fight back. Long Live The Anime Empire "You know what? You really, REALLY, like to dampen the mood" - Lea Silencio -HAND
DUST Fiend Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 14566	Posted - 2014.07.11 05:05:00 - [44] - Quote Moochie Cricket wrote: 1.) Huge SP sink for two people 2.) Requires a large amount of teamwork to work properly 3.) Requires two people to do the job an adept ads pilot can do on his own 4.) Two ads dropships > one ads with a gunner 5.) Gives an incentive to use gunners 6.) Greatly lowers your potential tank 7.) Look in PC battles at the highest level. This is where anything is done to win and FOTM rules supreme. If these stacking skills were OP you would see it everywhere, and I have yet to see anyone use this tactic in PC, myself included. 1.) If both players are pilots, it's not an SP sink, it's what's required to push your bird to it's maximum, which all pilots should strive for. Saying it's an SP sink just alludes to the fact that you would rather double the efficiency of a side turret then actually use your SP for what it was intended for 2.) It actually takes less teamwork than non bugged turrets, since you have to stay on target less, stay in the hot zone for shorter periods of time, reload faster, have huge pools of ammo...etc etc. Basically the bug dramatically reduces what normally would indeed be a teamwork intensive task 3.) This is straight bull ****. No solo pilot will EVER accomplish what bugged side turrets will accomplish because his front turret isn't bugged, and will only ever be half as effective as your bugged side turret. 4.) Again, not true. Those two ships each have to be called out, they have to watch out for each other to not crash especially when being hit by AV, and their main turret only fires half as fast as your bugged side turret. Also, this adds to their vehicle quota 5.) The only reason there is little incentive for side gunners is how obnoxious the fitting cost for small turrets is, and that's not a dropship exclusive issue. If this were addressed there would be plenty of incentive to have a gunner without relying on a bug to feel relevant. 6.) "Greatly" is kind of an overstatement, at least for one side turret which is all you need. And yet again, this comes back to small turrets being too PG/CPU intensive, which as stated, isn't dropship exclusive. 7.) PC battles are actually some of the only places I've seen the tactic, because that's where it's most viable. You abuse the RoF to do sweeps on enemy vehicles and you don't have to be too concerned with having a skilled pilot because usually a single pass is enough to destroy any vehicle before your gunner overheats or has to reload. All in all the bug lowers the amount of teamwork and skill required, and inflates peoples sense of skill. This is one bug that I am very eager to watch get fixed so skilled pilots and gunners can actually stand out again. The Future
XxGhazbaranxX Eternal Beings Proficiency V. 1684	Posted - 2014.07.11 06:19:00 - [45] - Quote Beld Errmon wrote: If you must keep saying that its not a bug because its been around for a long time then I'm gunna have to keep pointing out that just because a bug is around for a long time doesn't make it a feature, HMG users can reload quicker by sprinting half way through the reload animation, been around for ages, its not a feature its a bug. redline timer bugs out and displays wrong when you fly in there, its been around for a long time, its not a feature its a bug. Previous stacking applied to turret operation not the dropship skill, the fact that they messed up the way skills apply between pilot and gunner does not make it a feature, it was never listed as a feature in any description or patch note, and theres a big difference between stacking a 10% dmg bonus and a 20% dmg buff + 100% ROF buff. and seeming as we are rehashing the same points, do you really think its fair and balanced that your side gunner kicks out 4 times the DPS of a Protorail tank? because I barely think its fair my front gun kicks out 2 times the dps, but atleast my front gun will overheat before its halfway through the clip, I suspect your side gunners don't overheat at all or manage to fire 20 out of 24 shots before they do. While I would Like to say that your argument does contain some logic we also have to view that There re skills that stack and skills that don't. Like I've said many times throughout the thread, the simple fact that there are skills that stack (ammo capacity) and skills that don't (turret proficiency), we can only come to the conclusion that CCP had made an active choice on which skills stack and which don't. @Moockie Cricket: If you notice when they try to contradict you they do not give you specific reasons for it being irrelevant and this is where I give reasons for example: Atiim wrote: Cracks Knuckles 1.) SP is irrelevant in terms of balance. 2.) Teamwork constitutes and advantage, not a "Win Button" 3.) See above. 4.) Not really. 5.) There are other incentives to fit gunners, so this is a moot point. 6.) 1 sacrifice for 3 gains(2x Damage, RoF, and Ammunition), so this is yet another mute point. 7.) Quantity does not equate to Quality, so this is a Logical Fallacy. while you, Atiim state that SP is irrelevant in terms of balance, then we could also assume there is no need for different skill tiers and therefore CCPs decision to make it more difficult to obtain different skills is not taken into consideration when it comes to balance. Yet CCP did decide to include different SP tier to different things to "Balance" certain items based on SP entry hurdles and roadblocks. More powerful items require a bigger SP investment While Teamwork does constitute an advantage, not an I WIN Button, as you so eloquently express, the same is applied for anti-vehicle work. In the same way that Two people can kill infantry, the same is true with AV. If it's two people VS two people, then the ones on the ground with AV have the advantage of destroying or thwarting the ADS since they can see and attack the ADS way before the ADS can see them. While incuding a "see above" it just demonstrates an inability to give well though out reasons for your thoughts. While, yes it takes two people, thos two people do not own an I win button which you, again, so eloquently express. Not really? Well this is where your incorrect. You see the net increase in damage by having a gunner is the sum of gunner and pilot. SO the gunner in theory is doing damage for both himself and the pilot. All the while, the dropship itself does not have double the HP. If you in theory where to engage two separate dropships then they would be able to kill the AV because the AV cannot attack both dropships at the same time. The only real incentive to having a gunner is that they have increased DPS compared to the front turret. If the pilot with an extra gunner flies with the front turret in mind he loses DPS based on difficulty of use and because the side turret will not have good shots half the time. Why have a side gun if it can do what you can already do? That is the real question. Unlike tanks, that the gunner will be looking at the target for most of the engagement, the ADS does not have that luxury. Even if diving, the engagement time is not enough to be viable even now when the skill does stack. While looking at it through the viewpoint of 1 dropship, this does seem like it's unbalanced but you have to look at it from the view of two dropships. Two fully specced pilots capable of using two maxed out ADS and choose to use one, results in a net 60% reduction in total tank (combined since it is one ADS worth of HP off the skies and the HP the remaining ADS can't fit due to the turret), not to mention the loss of ability to have the damage divided between the two vessels since AV is going to have to be focused on two ships instead of one. SO in total this aspect you claim to be unbalanced, if viewed closely is not, in fact, unbalanced. Quantity does not equate to quality but the fact is that PC is a cesspool of everything that is broken in the game. The simple truth of it not being widely used there, or anywhere else in the game, is proof enough that the mechanic is not detrimental to the game at all and that this is all just a pointless witch hunt. Plasma Cannon Advocate Dust 514 Survivor
DUST Fiend Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 14567	Posted - 2014.07.11 16:26:00 - [46] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Quantity does not equate to quality but the fact is that PC is a cesspool of everything that is broken in the game. The simple truth of it not being widely used there, or anywhere else in the game, is proof enough that the mechanic is not detrimental to the game at all and that this is all just a pointless witch hunt. [/list] Except that it gets used plenty by top corps because it's how you destroy vehicles effortlessly. The reason you don't see it as often is because dropship pilots are still fairly rare, especially maxed pilots, and then you have to get them together. On top of that, you have to find players willing to utilize bugged game mechanics. This leads to a small pool of players using the bug, not because it's balanced, but because there is simply a small pool of people that actually meet all the requirements to do so. The Future


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