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XxGhazbaranxX
Eternal Beings
Proficiency V.
1671
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Posted - 2014.07.10 09:42:00 -
[1] - Quote
hello,
Recently CCP posted in their Hotfix charlie post that skill stacking was a bug. Any true vehicle user knows that skill stacking has always been a game mchanic and was not a bug at all. Back when turret operation used to give 2% to damage, it was ideal for pilot/driver and the gunner to both have skills maxed out.
Currently there has been a witch hunt going on about ADS pilots and gunners stacking skills but the reality of the situation is that these are rarely seen in matches. Out of every 3 matches I see 1 ADS with a gunner. Even so, Having a gunner is only beneficial because they can stack. The loss of tank involved in having a gunner, specially in the python, is only justifiable by the fact that the team can get in, deal damage and get out. Even truer now that the incubus damage profiles got switched to take on full swarm damage 80/120 and can be challenged even by militia swarms.
On top of it all, for the stacking to be truly as dangerous as many of the "bug removal advocates" say, both pilots need to be maxed out and even then, the DPS output is just enough to compete with similar weapon systems taking into consideration the drawbacks involved with reducing the tank on an ADS. With an investment of 2.4 million SP each (4.8 combined), the same as getting a proto suit, stacking existence is justified by SP to entry and isk to entry barrier that only the most dedicated pilots and gunners are willing to achieve; which consequently, aren't many.
The sentiment of the forums does not reflect the reality of gameplay. This mechanic which was never considered a bug until now, is not as detrimental to the game as some threads might suggest. The evidence is in game. It's not something everyone does, it's something with a high barrier and CCP should do some digging around before they put the bug label on a mechanic that has existed and was iterated upon when the developers chose which skills stack and which don't.
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XxGhazbaranxX
Eternal Beings
Proficiency V.
1671
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Posted - 2014.07.10 10:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
Foundation Seldon wrote:1. It's a bug if it's an unintended effect that they had no real desire to bring to the game. Given that we were not privy to the development process of vehicles as a whole, we only have CCPs word to go on here. If they say it's a bug, it's a bug. 2. No True ScotsmanOn the surface I think your point holds a certain amount of water though, a pilot does end up significantly effecting the tank of his vehicle by adding additional turrets to his vehicle. But I can't help but think that even THAT downfall is potentially balanced by the fact that a pilot is now much more "aware" of his surroundings given the extra eyes on the ship, you're more fragile yes but less likely overall to be caught surprised. If that ends up being the case then it ends up as a pretty obvious net buff to the vehicle. Any true pilot should probably avoid kneejerk reactions to something that is obviously worth a fair bit of discussion.
As my last underlined sentence says, The mechanic was iterated upon and different skill where chosen to be stacked. To give you an example ammo expansion skill stacks but proficiency does not stack. In the old days, turret operation stacked with pilot/driver and gunner. These things were included in game on purpose and not by mistake. Remember that the team working on dust is reduced and not everyone working on it right now was working on it when these mechanics were included in the game.
The dreduction of tank is not potentially balanced. IN a perfect game setting, the gunner would be able to see things, or so would the pilot or so logic would dictate but, the fact is that current rendering mechanics make for an imperfect field of view for the pilot and the gunner. When none can see where invisible swarms are coming from, which is back, and none ca see where the forger is shooting from because they are not rendering (due to game mechanics and how rendering is done), the net decrease in defense is felt more than ever.
These problems are evident to actual pilots who do this almost everyday and are highe specialized and trained into this type of gameplay. Avoiding Kneejerk reaction is something that many players have done in the past to the detriment of the game. Many tried to expose ideas in a rational well thought out manner but the changes, which were done incorrectly were still done.
The scotsman comment, does not even start to apply here since All my views come from experienced pilots, 1 being the exception. I am not counter-arguing but exposing facts nor am I leading people to believe anything other than what the game history and code changes reflect, as in it existed before, it exists for certain skills and it was iterated upon because there was an active choice on which skills stacked for which I gave example of before and after vehicle re-balance.
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Dust 514 Survivor
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XxGhazbaranxX
Eternal Beings
Proficiency V.
1674
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Posted - 2014.07.10 23:02:00 -
[3] - Quote
I like how everyone keeps calling it a bug even though It was in all vehicle iterations. It's not pushing turrets beyond their intended capabilities because CCP intended the skills to stack. Even before the "NEW" vehicle balance stacking was a a thing and CCP was aware of it.
@DUST FIEND: You can keep saying it's a crutch and that it's not intended but the reality is that CCP chose which skills stack and which don't. Or haven't you noticed how proficiency doesn't stack but ammo capacity does. It was an active choice by the developers. You wont get your turret fittings reduction. CCP made the game the way it was and they will say this was a bug because many people, with you spearheading the campaign, started saying it was. I guess you just got tired of being beat by teamwork since I always see you solo.
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XxGhazbaranxX
Eternal Beings
Proficiency V.
1674
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Posted - 2014.07.10 23:09:00 -
[4] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:
Its a shame that Tankers or LAV pilots did not get skill stackings bonuses......
Certainly dropships were the only ones able to take advantage of this given the inherent and comparable T2 nature of their vehicles.
If Marauder HAV applied a 2% Armour resistance per level to the HAV per pilot would you really suggest that such a vehicle is based of intended mechanics?
LAV and tanks don't have this because their vehicles don't have any bonuses to anything yet if you have ammo capacity it stacks. The problem here was that tankers and LAV user got no bonuses not that they actually stack.
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XxGhazbaranxX
Eternal Beings
Proficiency V.
1674
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Posted - 2014.07.10 23:13:00 -
[5] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:
It's not breaking. I dont know how many times I can say this. If it wasn't intended then how come there are skills that stack and skills that don't? I've given the example, proficiency doesn't stack but ammo capacity does. In previous vehicle iterations when you got turret operation you had 2% damage increase per level and and the skill stacked with pilot/driver and gunner. So your argument is only that it's a bug and that it's a breaking turrets while I give you evidence to the contrary based on it actively being selected what skills stack and what skills don't.
It's not teamwork. It's abusing a bug to push turrets past their intended capabilities. Teamwork is using your side gunners to give you more coverage and better feedback by communicating with them. It's picking them up and dropping them off. It's rotating your ship when their clip runs dry so the other gunner can apply damage while they reload.
All those things you currently do, are teamwork. Pushing turrets past their intended capabilities, are not.
Sorry, but when the guy who's spearheading the games balance lists the bug as a bug, I'm inclined to believe that the bug is a bug. Don't worry though, no client side patches are coming for a good long while, so you can enjoy your bug and feel skilled while doing it
o7
You keep saying it's a bug and I gave you evidence to the contrary. The guy spearheading change has been know to make the mistake of listening to the wrong people just like when he nerfed the scouts intel capabilites and left them being able to brick tank. The problem they had was brick tanking yet he changed something that had nothing to do with it. Meanwhile Brick tanked scouts are still a problem. Just because People that rarely play the game call for a certain change doesn't mean it right.
I gave you my evidence that it wasnt a bug and that it had been a vehicle design since before ADS had their bonus and you have not given me evidence to the contrary which is a the main difference between our arguments. I give you proof and reason and you just keep repeating the same thing in hopes that it makes it true.
It's sad to see that in the game the sqeekiest wheel gets the oil even though their argument has no basis at all.
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XxGhazbaranxX
Eternal Beings
Proficiency V.
1674
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Posted - 2014.07.10 23:25:00 -
[6] - Quote
Spademan wrote:I always figured that skills only apply from the guy using the gun to the gun he's using.
That's how it used to work, right?
Stacking skills with gunners has always been a part of the game. This is just the new witch hunt created by people who barely know how this game developed during the years its existed. Creating baseless arguments to suit their gaming needs when they play once a week without actually understanding how something works. Pushing for changes in all the wrong categories creating holes in the developers time and blinding them from the real problems that exist throughout the game.
DUST Fiend wrote:You're such a baby, I can't believe people seriously need that bonus to feel effective. I feel bad for you.
You bring up "evidence" of past decisions, yet almost all of those changes are gone. Most of our vehicle variants are gone, and the entire way vehicles were presented is gone.
I don't care about this enough to argue it with you, I'm just happy to see a blue finally confirm the bug as a bug. It's a win for me in my book, and it's a win for you because your crutch is going to stay for many more months at least.
Win win
Personal attacks because you can't find any undeniable proof that you are right yet I give an argument based on evidence has made me lose all respect I had for you. Past decision are not past since they are current decisions that exist in game now and you guys are pushing towards eliminating so please; it's not past decisions, it's current decisions you disagree with.
True Adamance wrote:
If they did they would have been so ridiculously over powered it would not have been funny.
Additionally I have been on the receiving end of Cyrius Li Moody and 2 Gunners. I dont feel an ADS should have the level of DPS and Impunity to return fire that those 3 had.
However I could understand if all vehicles received stackable benefits. Howver at this time..... its not really possible to justify having one vehicle type with this kind of huge advantage.
It's rarely without impunity. A python with three gunners can barely breake 2500 shields while an incubus with 2 gunners can barely break 3500 armor. My Wyrkomi breach forge gun does 2900 damage to armor in one shot. Barely impunity if you half decent with A/V.
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Dust 514 Survivor
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XxGhazbaranxX
Eternal Beings
Proficiency V.
1674
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Posted - 2014.07.10 23:42:00 -
[7] - Quote
Spademan wrote:
Really? Even in early uprising? Chromosome?
I remember being told before the resuffle of skills that it work liked that.
Oh well.
If you ask me I'd have either it work the way I thought it did or have Pilot skills affect all.
But hey, not a game dev.
Yes. Skill stacking was always in existence; at least in early uprising. I don't want to say chromo because although I played chromo since the first day of open beta, I am not entirely sure.
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XxGhazbaranxX
Eternal Beings
Proficiency V.
1674
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Posted - 2014.07.10 23:56:00 -
[8] - Quote
aaaasdff ertgfdd wrote:
Yes, but you are comparing the defensive capability of a forge gun, to the offensive capability of a python with missles and 3 gunners. By your own argument he can one shot you, so being able to stack bonuses would not make you any less susceptible to his forgegun.
What I said was that having more gunners makes the ADS more week and to impress on that I gave some tanking (defense) numbers for comparison against the forge gun damage implying that I can almost 1 shot a 3 gunner ADS.
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XxGhazbaranxX
Eternal Beings
Proficiency V.
1684
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Posted - 2014.07.11 06:19:00 -
[9] - Quote
Beld Errmon wrote:If you must keep saying that its not a bug because its been around for a long time then I'm gunna have to keep pointing out that just because a bug is around for a long time doesn't make it a feature, HMG users can reload quicker by sprinting half way through the reload animation, been around for ages, its not a feature its a bug.
redline timer bugs out and displays wrong when you fly in there, its been around for a long time, its not a feature its a bug.
Previous stacking applied to turret operation not the dropship skill, the fact that they messed up the way skills apply between pilot and gunner does not make it a feature, it was never listed as a feature in any description or patch note, and theres a big difference between stacking a 10% dmg bonus and a 20% dmg buff + 100% ROF buff.
and seeming as we are rehashing the same points, do you really think its fair and balanced that your side gunner kicks out 4 times the DPS of a Protorail tank? because I barely think its fair my front gun kicks out 2 times the dps, but atleast my front gun will overheat before its halfway through the clip, I suspect your side gunners don't overheat at all or manage to fire 20 out of 24 shots before they do.
While I would Like to say that your argument does contain some logic we also have to view that There re skills that stack and skills that don't. Like I've said many times throughout the thread, the simple fact that there are skills that stack (ammo capacity) and skills that don't (turret proficiency), we can only come to the conclusion that CCP had made an active choice on which skills stack and which don't.
@Moockie Cricket: If you notice when they try to contradict you they do not give you specific reasons for it being irrelevant and this is where I give reasons for example:
Atiim wrote:
*Cracks Knuckles*
1.) SP is irrelevant in terms of balance.
2.) Teamwork constitutes and advantage, not a "Win Button"
3.) See above.
4.) Not really.
5.) There are other incentives to fit gunners, so this is a moot point.
6.) 1 sacrifice for 3 gains(2x Damage, RoF, and Ammunition), so this is yet another mute point.
7.) Quantity does not equate to Quality, so this is a Logical Fallacy.
- while you, Atiim state that SP is irrelevant in terms of balance, then we could also assume there is no need for different skill tiers and therefore CCPs decision to make it more difficult to obtain different skills is not taken into consideration when it comes to balance. Yet CCP did decide to include different SP tier to different things to "Balance" certain items based on SP entry hurdles and roadblocks. More powerful items require a bigger SP investment
- While Teamwork does constitute an advantage, not an I WIN Button, as you so eloquently express, the same is applied for anti-vehicle work. In the same way that Two people can kill infantry, the same is true with AV. If it's two people VS two people, then the ones on the ground with AV have the advantage of destroying or thwarting the ADS since they can see and attack the ADS way before the ADS can see them.
- While incuding a "see above" it just demonstrates an inability to give well though out reasons for your thoughts. While, yes it takes two people, thos two people do not own an I win button which you, again, so eloquently express.
- Not really? Well this is where your incorrect. You see the net increase in damage by having a gunner is the sum of gunner and pilot. SO the gunner in theory is doing damage for both himself and the pilot. All the while, the dropship itself does not have double the HP. If you in theory where to engage two separate dropships then they would be able to kill the AV because the AV cannot attack both dropships at the same time.
- The only real incentive to having a gunner is that they have increased DPS compared to the front turret. If the pilot with an extra gunner flies with the front turret in mind he loses DPS based on difficulty of use and because the side turret will not have good shots half the time. Why have a side gun if it can do what you can already do? That is the real question. Unlike tanks, that the gunner will be looking at the target for most of the engagement, the ADS does not have that luxury. Even if diving, the engagement time is not enough to be viable even now when the skill does stack.
- While looking at it through the viewpoint of 1 dropship, this does seem like it's unbalanced but you have to look at it from the view of two dropships. Two fully specced pilots capable of using two maxed out ADS and choose to use one, results in a net 60% reduction in total tank (combined since it is one ADS worth of HP off the skies and the HP the remaining ADS can't fit due to the turret), not to mention the loss of ability to have the damage divided between the two vessels since AV is going to have to be focused on two ships instead of one. SO in total this aspect you claim to be unbalanced, if viewed closely is not, in fact, unbalanced.
- Quantity does not equate to quality but the fact is that PC is a cesspool of everything that is broken in the game. The simple truth of it not being widely used there, or anywhere else in the game, is proof enough that the mechanic is not detrimental to the game at all and that this is all just a pointless witch hunt.
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