Why focus exclusively on pythons?

I have a theory. Because incubus pilots had their crutch nerfed, their lack of skills as a ADS pilot became... obvious. Python pilots who have always had it rougher honed their skills. The result would be pythons would appear to be harder to kill than incubus, when in reality aren't. Armored vehicles actually have more base EHP than shield vehicles.



So if you don't have trouble downing incubus, then you shouldn't have trouble downing pythons. Of course python pilots tend to be more experienced than incubus pilots.

Special thanks to protofits for the numbers.

@ Atiim: We do get a bonus to rate of fire, but not damage.

Why focus exclusively on pythons?

I have a theory. Because incubus pilots had their crutch nerfed, their lack of skills as a ADS pilot became... obvious. Python pilots who have always had it rougher honed their skills. The result would be pythons would appear to be harder to kill than incubus, when in reality aren't. Armored vehicles actually have more base EHP than shield vehicles.



So if you don't have trouble downing incubus, then you shouldn't have trouble downing pythons. Of course python pilots tend to be more experienced than incubus pilots.

Special thanks to protofits for the numbers.

@ Atiim: We do get a bonus to rate of fire, but not damage.

As a player who almost exclusively pilots Pythons when he plays now, I can say without a doubt that the Python is only about as powerful, maybe less so, than an above-average infantry player in a slayer role. I actually still consistently outscore myself when I go back to ground. It's definitely superior in a solo AV role, however, as it can actually stick to the land bound HAVs unless they fully retreat into the redline and can solo kill with a good amount of skill (player and SP) investment. But this applies to the Incubus as well, so this point is kind of moot.

I think people's problems with the Python lie in its excellent versatility even among the dropship class. It can stick to a target easily with its superior agility and the splash radius of missiles is much more forgiving for attacking smaller targets than the pinpoint railgun with its tiny reticule. It also, y'know, flies, so it can take out improperly defended high ground targets and easily destroys uplinks by being able to avoid all the land-based obstacles. Small missiles are also the best weapon for a bird to use for just general purposes, equally capable of fighting infantry and vehicles alike, making the Python something of a flying omnisoldier with a very strong bonus to said weapon with 2+ million SP invested in a single skill capable of attacking almost any high-value target at almost any time. Additionally, with its high regen, no single minor threat can make it back off for long.

All that said, however, the Python falls easily to alpha damage with its lower max HP but higher regen shield tank (as it should), and its lighter frame seems to be a bit more susceptible to being knocked into buildings, which is problematic for me with the increased collision damage. All it takes to keep me away is one or two good forge gunners in a good firing position, possibly with backup from a swarmer or two to keep me off target. With good players AVing, I can't even get in close enough to land more than one or two accurate missiles, if that. If the alpha is high enough, I die. If not, I still have to back off for a pretty long time, praying I don't eat a second or third hit as I retreat, and you still have a major threat in the area to continue keeping me at bay.

AV versus a Python is a bit delicately balanced in my opinion. Swarms are an actual legitimate threat again, especially in numbers, and Forge Guns make me back off unless the user can't aim. They're certainly doing their jobs well, but they are indeed nudging a little close to 1.6 lethality, and with the addition of WP for AVers, I've seen more of them than ever before in just the few times I've played since. They're not at broken levels, but they do pack just a smidge more punch than I'm comfortable with. I can see why swarmers would be frustrated though, with the inferior damage profile versus shields and the Python's ability to outrun them when in danger.

Overall, Pythons are in a good place, yes, but they are not overpowered. They do have quite a bit going for them, but they're no more powerful than some of the stuff on the ground. The only time they really shine is when there is little to no competent AV threatening them, and they are by no means unbeatable.

One last thing. If you put an AB on a Python, you're sacrificing one of three tank slots, Atiim. With how expensive a single bird is, I much prefer having higher HP and just using unpredictable dodging maneuvers. I can't speak for other Python pilots, but I imagine many of them feel the same way.

tl;dr Pythons are strong in the right hands, but not OP.

Why focus exclusively on pythons?

I have a theory. Because incubus pilots had their crutch nerfed, their lack of skills as a ADS pilot became... obvious. Python pilots who have always had it rougher honed their skills. The result would be pythons would appear to be harder to kill than incubus, when in reality aren't. Armored vehicles actually have more base EHP than shield vehicles.



So if you don't have trouble downing incubus, then you shouldn't have trouble downing pythons. Of course python pilots tend to be more experienced than incubus pilots.

Special thanks to protofits for the numbers.

@ Atiim: We do get a bonus to rate of fire, but not damage.

Your point about the difference in pilots comes off arrogant but does have validity. The changes to reps, resistance, and swarm prof probably did have a lot to do with my success vs them this weekend, and in time they may adjust and cause me to change my tune about them.

Pythons are OP as ****, it's why they're the preferred ship of most ADS pilots.

Any idiot that mentions Incubus having more HP as some kind of balancing factor is just that; an idiot. Almost all forms of AV do massive bonus damage to armor, and are much easier to hit the significantly slower, larger, and less agile Incubus.

Pythons are scrub tubs

It doesn't really matter.

Cause at the end of the day, any dropship will be taken out by decent dual forgers

I played a Dom match on Fracture Road where there was a Full Skilled ADS (could tell by the ROF of his cannon) who was up against myself, another swarm, and 2 forge at one point. Dudes name was one I'd not seen before, Jack something I think, went 24/0 that match despite the AV Aass he was up against.

So the question I have is despite skill and cost, should anything be that powerful?

Let's take this from the standpoint that holding back (not killing) is enough. My video shows that even though I could kill that ADS, at least I was able to prevent him from doing much damage. In the case of the Dom match (which unfortunately I deleted the footage in rate) 4 of us couldn't neutralize. A quick boost around the map and it's back to full health, unlike an Incubus that has to lick its wounds for a bit.

Well, firstly, thanks for the kudos; I wonder if that was me (that match sounds familiar)!

Anyways.

With the python, the things that it has going for it are:
+ Free HP regen
+ Resistance to swarms
+ Missile bonuses (wow)
+ Above average agility

Sounds OP right? Well, the issues it still has are these, which is why I often fly incubus instead:
- Like glass against collisions
- Unpredictable collisions
- Vulnerable to shield stripping by rails and forges (think of the range here)
- Both of which throw its light frame all over the place
- Causing collisions

What I'm trying to say is, as a pilot of both Cal and Gal ships, they are situational beasts. In the right hands, operating them properly, they can each survive where the other cannot, and also destroy targets that the others cannot. Pilots who ***** all the time are generally using very ineffective fits - after much experimenting I now know my ships' limits.

All that I'd ask for is *slightly* less swarm damage (just as MLT swarms PWN dropships now), and the cost of the ADS to be toned down a bit. I'd like to see more dropships flown for infantry support again. But hey, it's DUST!

Wait, so the issues you named were collision damage, forge and rails. Going for it you list resistance to swarms, yet you would like less swarm damage?

speaking of crutches I hope you actually fly pythons cause i look forward to showing you the crutch of my incubi's landing gear after I down that one trick pony, you're quick to quote numbers in your argument but don't actually know the skills that apply to the dropships, which imo makes your opinion completely worthless.

Ah, my bad.

I meant to say that I don't like the power of MLT swarms. I didn't mention collisions as I have given up on them being fixed!

Swarms have needed a buff for ages, and it's nice to see that they are finally useful.
However, I feel a little cheated that an MLT weapon can easily solo my very much Proto ship. Even if they don't kill me, they jump above everything else to the top of my threat list. At MLT level.

So, redacting my original statement, I would ask for more scaling of swarm damage. Proto and advanced are great, but MLT and standard are a bit much right now I think.

But that's just my opinion!

So I spent this past weekend in full AV mode. Had a lot of fun. There wasn't a single vehicle type that I didn't down except the Python.

I'm torn because to me the Python is similar to the SCR. It is a massively powerful weapon, but balanced with massive drawbacks, however, in the right hands, it can become God mode.

I made an AV commentary this weekend. I chose this game more for the variety of things an AV player has to keep in mind that was contained in one game, but it was hard for me to not turn it into a Python ***** fest.

Let me say this. I have GREAT respect for DS and ADS pilots. I thing you guys have had to put up with plenty of **** like redline rails, RDVs, grazing impact damage, invisible swarms and such, not to mention the ludicrous cost of those things that justifiably puts you guys on a different level. Your craft has never been an IWIN button. But this video I think does a good job of showing that there wasn't much more I could bring to the table short of a second body to bring this guy down. And this wasn't the worst.

I played a Dom match on Fracture Road where there was a Full Skilled ADS (could tell by the ROF of his cannon) who was up against myself, another swarm, and 2 forge at one point. Dudes name was one I'd not seen before, Jack something I think, went 24/0 that match despite the AV Aass he was up against.

So the question I have is despite skill and cost, should anything be that powerful?

Let's take this from the standpoint that holding back (not killing) is enough. My video shows that even though I could kill that ADS, at least I was able to prevent him from doing much damage. In the case of the Dom match (which unfortunately I deleted the footage in rate) 4 of us couldn't neutralize. A quick boost around the map and it's back to full health, unlike an Incubus that has to lick its wounds for a bit.

I know it's asking a lot, but I'd like a good discussion on this with real pilots and real AV guys. I don't want an IWIN button any more than the good pilots of Dust should. So Atiim, Numbnutz, Judge? Care to weigh in?

http://youtu.be/dMyyBYpaQ7E

If a player with AV manages to out-smart you, then they deserve to "solo" you, regardless of tier. I (nor anyone) should be able to purchase an advantage by simply spending ISK. That not only creates a terrible NPE, but removes the skill aspect from the engagements as well.

The scaling of Swarm Launchers is already by 25% per tier, which is higher than any Item (including Vehicle Items), in DUST 514. And because of this, they are garbage at any other tier below PRO (maybe ADV if the Pilot's a scrub). I'd say they need less of a damage scaling to allow for players to be successful without having to spend large amounts of ISK on PRO gear.

Not to mention that the MLT Swarm Launcher is already hindered in terms of DPS (and Applied DPS), due to it's lower clip size than the other variants.

My advice to you, would be to become better at flying your aircraft, and use a Shield Hardener. MLT SLs already deal 704HP against Shields, and using a Hardener would bring that down to a low 422HP. That requires over 6 volleys of concentrated fire, which makes it impossible for MLT Swarms to "solo" without depleting it's ammo reserves.

Which may seem trivial, but most players with MLT Swarms are in Starter Fits and don't equip Nanohives.

If this is the same guy who I described in the OP from that Dom match then I would classify him as a really good pilot. Like I said 24/0 in a dom with me and a few others pinging him for most of the match, and he wasn't engaging the outskirts, he spent most of the game protecting the single objective on that map. However, I think he is mistaken on what swarm if hurting him. MLT and even ADV is so garbage compaired to Proto that I as an AV guy have no suits equipped with them. It is the only Proto weapon I use regularly. I think he is just mistaken on what he is getting hit by.

In a Python I agree, but with an Incubus even MLT swarms are incredibly threatening. The damage profile is insane right now. Proto swarms are just off the charts.

In a Python I agree, but with an Incubus even MLT swarms are incredibly threatening. The damage profile is insane right now. Proto swarms are just off the charts.

to be honest i think av vs vehicles is now fine. Not too powerfull but aswell not a nonfactor like it was in the past. And to be honest if you are using the LAV why not use a forgegun? instant damage application and if you woulda have gotten 2 hits on that python he woulda have fall like a brick.

So I spent this past weekend in full AV mode. Had a lot of fun. There wasn't a single vehicle type that I didn't down except the Python.

I'm torn because to me the Python is similar to the SCR. It is a massively powerful weapon, but balanced with massive drawbacks, however, in the right hands, it can become God mode.

I made an AV commentary this weekend. I chose this game more for the variety of things an AV player has to keep in mind that was contained in one game, but it was hard for me to not turn it into a Python ***** fest.

Let me say this. I have GREAT respect for DS and ADS pilots. I thing you guys have had to put up with plenty of **** like redline rails, RDVs, grazing impact damage, invisible swarms and such, not to mention the ludicrous cost of those things that justifiably puts you guys on a different level. Your craft has never been an IWIN button. But this video I think does a good job of showing that there wasn't much more I could bring to the table short of a second body to bring this guy down. And this wasn't the worst.

I played a Dom match on Fracture Road where there was a Full Skilled ADS (could tell by the ROF of his cannon) who was up against myself, another swarm, and 2 forge at one point. Dudes name was one I'd not seen before, Jack something I think, went 24/0 that match despite the AV Aass he was up against.

So the question I have is despite skill and cost, should anything be that powerful?

Let's take this from the standpoint that holding back (not killing) is enough. My video shows that even though I could kill that ADS, at least I was able to prevent him from doing much damage. In the case of the Dom match (which unfortunately I deleted the footage in rate) 4 of us couldn't neutralize. A quick boost around the map and it's back to full health, unlike an Incubus that has to lick its wounds for a bit.

I know it's asking a lot, but I'd like a good discussion on this with real pilots and real AV guys. I don't want an IWIN button any more than the good pilots of Dust should. So Atiim, Numbnutz, Judge? Care to weigh in?

http://youtu.be/dMyyBYpaQ7E

The only reason the python is good is because it can "Strafe" in air. Evading shots is it's strong point and the main reason it can't be killed.

But to be honest, it all really depends on the pilot. If the pilot stands still I can kill the python in two shots with my proto dusl plasma cannon commando. I did so twice to the same guy who just wanted to stand still to kill people with his python.

I personally am both a dedicated AVer and Incubus pilot, I do both roles regularly, sometimes I even AV in my Incubus.

Firstly in that specific video (rather enjoyed it by the way) , the Python pilot in question should have been brought to rites on multiple occassions, he overstretched the abilities of his craft and you caught him in compromising positions on more than one occasion.

Secondly as an Incubus pilot, I sometimes have gotten away with the closest of shaves, I've come by to do an attack run on what I thought to be a single swarmer, only to find 3-5 waiting for me. In such cases I've reached the safety of my redline and the protection of the MCC's motherly figure with less than 50 EHP remaining. Not because I got out in time, I stuck around too long and pushed my luck on almost every occasion, the reason I survived was because I could simply 'turn 'n' burn".

I could travel fast enough to either stagger the volley enough to allow for my armour reppers to undo the damage, or just out distance them and laugh as 3 whole volleys explode harmlessly behind me. Now as pilot this is nice, after all I don't loose my expensive dropship, I can recall it until the skies are a little safer again.

However as an AVer I can't count the amount of times a Dropship has just plain outrun my swarms, sometimes on the smallest sliver off health I have launched entire mags in their direction, yet hit nothing but air. As an AVer it's just damn annoying, especially when I know he will back again soon for more.

That said though I don't believe any of it is down to Damage per Volley or DPS or even anything under either players control. It is simply down to the speed of swarm launchers, the acceleration is sluggish at best and the top speed makes my grandmothers mobility scooter look like a drag racer. All you need to do is increase the
Gùå Acceleration
Gùå Top Speed
Gùå Maximum Travel Distance
Gùå Unguided Travel Distance
While decreasing turning circle and the time to fire the volley. No changes to damage, or DPS just make it harder for a Dropship to outrun his killing blow. Now a lot of you may say It takes skill to outrun swarms, to which I respectfully request that you shut your festering pie hole you t*t (Monty Python, if you don't understand my sudden outburst of profanity), it takes skill to outmanoeuvre a swarm volley, causing them to hit terrain as opposed to your craft, but there is no skill to
Gùå Blasting to the flight ceiling, like a lightning ||
Gùå Flying really really fast in a straight line

Yet these are currently the 2 best ways to avoid an incoming volley, which in my opinion should not happen.