As judge has said, when you're facing an ADS it's not the same as facing a protosuit. It's facing a proto suit with one of the best players in the game behind it.

Ever ran into 1st lieutenant Tiberius or frost kitty in a pub? I have, I've seen them get 70-100 kills between the two of them while rarely dying. That's what it's like to face a really good dropship pilot. Furthermore any 'really good' infantry player will consistently perform a *lot* better than said ADS.

I personally don't like people feeling helpless (as it very much can feel when facing vehicle players either without AV skills yourself, or with really good infantry support that prevents you from AV), but what you're commenting on is balancing for skill. If you make weapons more powerful the less skilled die all the time, and the more skilled might die marginally more often, but they'll still probably get away more often than not.

Its about the skill of the pilot vs the skill of the av, the equipment its self isnt the issue, ive had games where 3 or more forge have failed to down me, and other games where a pro fg has landed every shot and killed me before i could retreat, as for the python, they arent that good my incubus rips them to bits.

An ADS pilot is one of the best people in the game and have a lot going against them from the start of the match which you have mostly listed but don't forget other DS ship ramming tactics also makes it harder.

The ADS in itself is an underpowered price of machine that needs to get a slight buff and hit detection rework but it is the player behind it, coupled with a lot of experience and knowledge on what to do in almost situations that make it 'feel' like it is overpowered.

Also remember they also need to invest a lot of skill points and isk into their roll verses infantry too... I'm both ADS and an infantry and learnt valuable lessons on what to do and what not to do while flying around in an ADS.

The python is almost there, a few changes could be made to make it truly balanced.

First do away with the assault dropship, and racial assault dropship skill stacking. I think everyone is in agreement there.

I put forward an idea to curve the engagement length by increasing clip size of the small missile turret and decreasing damage per missile to keep the same damage per clip as it is now. Nothing drastic, say 4 missile increase with damage reduction as needed to keep the damage potential.
This would lengthen the engagement time needed of the dropship and reward accurate shot placement as well as making the pythons speed and ROF bonuses more prevalent. This would also encourage teamwork and fitting turrets for gunners rather than fitting max tank and soloing, which would in turn lower a pythons tank. My python has 2508 shields with 3 xt-1s, I have max fitting skills.
I agree that dropships shouldn't be as powerful as they are with a solo pilot and I feel this small change could limit what a solo pilot could do without making it unviable to run. I do feel that you should be able to play as you want, but dropships are team vehicles and should be heavily emphasized as such.

What do you think?

I would love to weigh in. I wonder If we might talk in game first. So much to type I don't want to repeat a wall of text if you are up to speed.

Ill just add for info here I have Proto swarms, Proto Minnmando, max swarm prof. I have done both sides.

Why focus exclusively on pythons?

I have a theory. Because incubus pilots had their crutch nerfed, their lack of skills as a ADS pilot became... obvious. Python pilots who have always had it rougher honed their skills. The result would be pythons would appear to be harder to kill than incubus, when in reality aren't. Armored vehicles actually have more base EHP than shield vehicles.



So if you don't have trouble downing incubus, then you shouldn't have trouble downing pythons. Of course python pilots tend to be more experienced than incubus pilots.

Special thanks to protofits for the numbers.

@ Atiim: We do get a bonus to rate of fire, but not damage.

As a player who almost exclusively pilots Pythons when he plays now, I can say without a doubt that the Python is only about as powerful, maybe less so, than an above-average infantry player in a slayer role. I actually still consistently outscore myself when I go back to ground. It's definitely superior in a solo AV role, however, as it can actually stick to the land bound HAVs unless they fully retreat into the redline and can solo kill with a good amount of skill (player and SP) investment. But this applies to the Incubus as well, so this point is kind of moot.

I think people's problems with the Python lie in its excellent versatility even among the dropship class. It can stick to a target easily with its superior agility and the splash radius of missiles is much more forgiving for attacking smaller targets than the pinpoint railgun with its tiny reticule. It also, y'know, flies, so it can take out improperly defended high ground targets and easily destroys uplinks by being able to avoid all the land-based obstacles. Small missiles are also the best weapon for a bird to use for just general purposes, equally capable of fighting infantry and vehicles alike, making the Python something of a flying omnisoldier with a very strong bonus to said weapon with 2+ million SP invested in a single skill capable of attacking almost any high-value target at almost any time. Additionally, with its high regen, no single minor threat can make it back off for long.

All that said, however, the Python falls easily to alpha damage with its lower max HP but higher regen shield tank (as it should), and its lighter frame seems to be a bit more susceptible to being knocked into buildings, which is problematic for me with the increased collision damage. All it takes to keep me away is one or two good forge gunners in a good firing position, possibly with backup from a swarmer or two to keep me off target. With good players AVing, I can't even get in close enough to land more than one or two accurate missiles, if that. If the alpha is high enough, I die. If not, I still have to back off for a pretty long time, praying I don't eat a second or third hit as I retreat, and you still have a major threat in the area to continue keeping me at bay.

AV versus a Python is a bit delicately balanced in my opinion. Swarms are an actual legitimate threat again, especially in numbers, and Forge Guns make me back off unless the user can't aim. They're certainly doing their jobs well, but they are indeed nudging a little close to 1.6 lethality, and with the addition of WP for AVers, I've seen more of them than ever before in just the few times I've played since. They're not at broken levels, but they do pack just a smidge more punch than I'm comfortable with. I can see why swarmers would be frustrated though, with the inferior damage profile versus shields and the Python's ability to outrun them when in danger.

Overall, Pythons are in a good place, yes, but they are not overpowered. They do have quite a bit going for them, but they're no more powerful than some of the stuff on the ground. The only time they really shine is when there is little to no competent AV threatening them, and they are by no means unbeatable.

One last thing. If you put an AB on a Python, you're sacrificing one of three tank slots, Atiim. With how expensive a single bird is, I much prefer having higher HP and just using unpredictable dodging maneuvers. I can't speak for other Python pilots, but I imagine many of them feel the same way.

tl;dr Pythons are strong in the right hands, but not OP.

Well, firstly, thanks for the kudos; I wonder if that was me (that match sounds familiar)!

Anyways.

With the python, the things that it has going for it are:
+ Free HP regen
+ Resistance to swarms
+ Missile bonuses (wow)
+ Above average agility

Sounds OP right? Well, the issues it still has are these, which is why I often fly incubus instead:
- Like glass against collisions
- Unpredictable collisions
- Vulnerable to shield stripping by rails and forges (think of the range here)
- Both of which throw its light frame all over the place
- Causing collisions

What I'm trying to say is, as a pilot of both Cal and Gal ships, they are situational beasts. In the right hands, operating them properly, they can each survive where the other cannot, and also destroy targets that the others cannot. Pilots who ***** all the time are generally using very ineffective fits - after much experimenting I now know my ships' limits.

All that I'd ask for is *slightly* less swarm damage (just as MLT swarms PWN dropships now), and the cost of the ADS to be toned down a bit. I'd like to see more dropships flown for infantry support again. But hey, it's DUST!

If a player with AV manages to out-smart you, then they deserve to "solo" you, regardless of tier. I (nor anyone) should be able to purchase an advantage by simply spending ISK. That not only creates a terrible NPE, but removes the skill aspect from the engagements as well.

The scaling of Swarm Launchers is already by 25% per tier, which is higher than any Item (including Vehicle Items), in DUST 514. And because of this, they are garbage at any other tier below PRO (maybe ADV if the Pilot's a scrub). I'd say they need less of a damage scaling to allow for players to be successful without having to spend large amounts of ISK on PRO gear.

Not to mention that the MLT Swarm Launcher is already hindered in terms of DPS (and Applied DPS), due to it's lower clip size than the other variants.

My advice to you, would be to become better at flying your aircraft, and use a Shield Hardener. MLT SLs already deal 704HP against Shields, and using a Hardener would bring that down to a low 422HP. That requires over 6 volleys of concentrated fire, which makes it impossible for MLT Swarms to "solo" without depleting it's ammo reserves.

Which may seem trivial, but most players with MLT Swarms are in Starter Fits and don't equip Nanohives.

In a Python I agree, but with an Incubus even MLT swarms are incredibly threatening. The damage profile is insane right now. Proto swarms are just off the charts.

In a Python I agree, but with an Incubus even MLT swarms are incredibly threatening. The damage profile is insane right now. Proto swarms are just off the charts.

The only reason the python is good is because it can "Strafe" in air. Evading shots is it's strong point and the main reason it can't be killed.

But to be honest, it all really depends on the pilot. If the pilot stands still I can kill the python in two shots with my proto dusl plasma cannon commando. I did so twice to the same guy who just wanted to stand still to kill people with his python.

I personally am both a dedicated AVer and Incubus pilot, I do both roles regularly, sometimes I even AV in my Incubus.

Firstly in that specific video (rather enjoyed it by the way) , the Python pilot in question should have been brought to rites on multiple occassions, he overstretched the abilities of his craft and you caught him in compromising positions on more than one occasion.

Secondly as an Incubus pilot, I sometimes have gotten away with the closest of shaves, I've come by to do an attack run on what I thought to be a single swarmer, only to find 3-5 waiting for me. In such cases I've reached the safety of my redline and the protection of the MCC's motherly figure with less than 50 EHP remaining. Not because I got out in time, I stuck around too long and pushed my luck on almost every occasion, the reason I survived was because I could simply 'turn 'n' burn".

I could travel fast enough to either stagger the volley enough to allow for my armour reppers to undo the damage, or just out distance them and laugh as 3 whole volleys explode harmlessly behind me. Now as pilot this is nice, after all I don't loose my expensive dropship, I can recall it until the skies are a little safer again.

However as an AVer I can't count the amount of times a Dropship has just plain outrun my swarms, sometimes on the smallest sliver off health I have launched entire mags in their direction, yet hit nothing but air. As an AVer it's just damn annoying, especially when I know he will back again soon for more.

That said though I don't believe any of it is down to Damage per Volley or DPS or even anything under either players control. It is simply down to the speed of swarm launchers, the acceleration is sluggish at best and the top speed makes my grandmothers mobility scooter look like a drag racer. All you need to do is increase the
Gùå Acceleration
Gùå Top Speed
Gùå Maximum Travel Distance
Gùå Unguided Travel Distance
While decreasing turning circle and the time to fire the volley. No changes to damage, or DPS just make it harder for a Dropship to outrun his killing blow. Now a lot of you may say It takes skill to outrun swarms, to which I respectfully request that you shut your festering pie hole you t*t (Monty Python, if you don't understand my sudden outburst of profanity), it takes skill to outmanoeuvre a swarm volley, causing them to hit terrain as opposed to your craft, but there is no skill to
Gùå Blasting to the flight ceiling, like a lightning ||
Gùå Flying really really fast in a straight line

Yet these are currently the 2 best ways to avoid an incoming volley, which in my opinion should not happen.

*eye twitches* you have no idea.
Besides, the changes to av that you suggested are rediculous.
Nobody should EVER be able to take down a 500k dropship singlehandedly. ever.
These range increases are reversing what happend in 1.6, the fixing of paper airplanes.

Not saying I agree but dropships can't eat a clip of prof5 proto swarms and happily fly away.

It confuses me that people run scouts for swarms, why do you do this? Is it for the damps? Because yeah my prototype missiles will one shot you. Minmandos can solo a python with prof 5 swarms and a DMG mod or two in one clip plus have a cr to defend themselves with and have more HP.

I do agree that there is no reason to Nerf swarms, tho I also don't see a reason to buff them.

Ah yes I should have specified running scouts with swarms to down a dropship. I understand the perks of running a scout when dealting with ground vehicles. My bad.
It would make sense to me that if a dedicated aver wanted a dropship gone he would switch out to his minmando and get to a good position.