As judge has said, when you're facing an ADS it's not the same as facing a protosuit. It's facing a proto suit with one of the best players in the game behind it.

Ever ran into 1st lieutenant Tiberius or frost kitty in a pub? I have, I've seen them get 70-100 kills between the two of them while rarely dying. That's what it's like to face a really good dropship pilot. Furthermore any 'really good' infantry player will consistently perform a *lot* better than said ADS.

I personally don't like people feeling helpless (as it very much can feel when facing vehicle players either without AV skills yourself, or with really good infantry support that prevents you from AV), but what you're commenting on is balancing for skill. If you make weapons more powerful the less skilled die all the time, and the more skilled might die marginally more often, but they'll still probably get away more often than not.

Its about the skill of the pilot vs the skill of the av, the equipment its self isnt the issue, ive had games where 3 or more forge have failed to down me, and other games where a pro fg has landed every shot and killed me before i could retreat, as for the python, they arent that good my incubus rips them to bits.

Yes, like I said, the incubus isn't the issue, and it can be a counter to the Python because it can keep up with it (at least better than and other unit other than another Python).

An ADS pilot is one of the best people in the game and have a lot going against them from the start of the match which you have mostly listed but don't forget other DS ship ramming tactics also makes it harder.

The ADS in itself is an underpowered price of machine that needs to get a slight buff and hit detection rework but it is the player behind it, coupled with a lot of experience and knowledge on what to do in almost situations that make it 'feel' like it is overpowered.

Also remember they also need to invest a lot of skill points and isk into their roll verses infantry too... I'm both ADS and an infantry and learnt valuable lessons on what to do and what not to do while flying around in an ADS.

The python is almost there, a few changes could be made to make it truly balanced.

First do away with the assault dropship, and racial assault dropship skill stacking. I think everyone is in agreement there.

I put forward an idea to curve the engagement length by increasing clip size of the small missile turret and decreasing damage per missile to keep the same damage per clip as it is now. Nothing drastic, say 4 missile increase with damage reduction as needed to keep the damage potential.
This would lengthen the engagement time needed of the dropship and reward accurate shot placement as well as making the pythons speed and ROF bonuses more prevalent. This would also encourage teamwork and fitting turrets for gunners rather than fitting max tank and soloing, which would in turn lower a pythons tank. My python has 2508 shields with 3 xt-1s, I have max fitting skills.
I agree that dropships shouldn't be as powerful as they are with a solo pilot and I feel this small change could limit what a solo pilot could do without making it unviable to run. I do feel that you should be able to play as you want, but dropships are team vehicles and should be heavily emphasized as such.

What do you think?

Yes I have played and killed at least Kitty. Proto Gal SG scout right? She/he did get close or over 50 kills in that match, but I downed her/him once, and got a kill assist on a second. It was memorable enough that, well, I remember it.

Your point about making the weapons more power is why I ask for discussion. I know that AV is in a relatively good place co paired to both pre and post 1.7.

I think I'm a decent AV'r. So what does it mean when I cannot take something down? What was my mistake in that video. Remove the one time where all three volleys hit him. Had I been rolling a second 5% mod, or been a minmando, he probably would've fallen. Take for the sake of argument that this guy wasn't that good of a pilot (anyone ever heard of him?) and my description of the Dom match to be factual, what is the answer to that level of skill matched with that level of potential. In the case of Kitty, her weakness was my Cal Scout and SCR. I was able to stalk her and deal enough damage quickly to neutralizer her at least once. But at least there was a readily available method. What is the true counter to a Python with a high skilled pilot in the cockpit other than luck or an equally skilled ADS/Pilot combo?

I know it's asking a lot, but I'd like a good discussion on this with real pilots and real AV guys. I don't want an IWIN button any more than the good pilots of Dust should. So Atiim, Numbnutz, Judge? Care to weigh in?

Proficiency V Swarms, 48M SP (Scout)

It is incredibly frustrating (and often risky) to volley swarms at a bird for an entire match. That said, birds are incredibly expensive, pose less threat than tanks, and require significant skill to pilot. Its a good thing that they're hard to kill, and I don't think I should be able to solo a decent pilot in a 500k+ aircraft.

Pythons from a Swarmer's Perspective
* Frustrating? Absolutely.
* Broken? Unlikely.

They can't outright ignore me anymore; I am satisfied.

Swarmers instantly go to #1 on my kill list when I fly. You should be honored to be considered such a threat by me.

(unlike tanks) require skill and effort to pilot.

I am sad that you think tanks require no skill.

I would love to weigh in. I wonder If we might talk in game first. So much to type I don't want to repeat a wall of text if you are up to speed.

Ill just add for info here I have Proto swarms, Proto Minnmando, max swarm prof. I have done both sides.

The python is almost there, a few changes could be made to make it truly balanced.

First do away with the assault dropship, and racial assault dropship skill stacking. I think everyone is in agreement there.

I put forward an idea to curve the engagement length by increasing clip size of the small missile turret and decreasing damage per missile to keep the same damage per clip as it is now. Nothing drastic, say 4 missile increase with damage reduction as needed to keep the damage potential.
This would lengthen the engagement time needed of the dropship and reward accurate shot placement as well as making the pythons speed and ROF bonuses more prevalent. This would also encourage teamwork and fitting turrets for gunners rather than fitting max tank and soloing, which would in turn lower a pythons tank. My python has 2508 shields with 3 xt-1s, I have max fitting skills.
I agree that dropships shouldn't be as powerful as they are with a solo pilot and I feel this small change could limit what a solo pilot could do without making it unviable to run. I do feel that you should be able to play as you want, but dropships are team vehicles and should be heavily emphasized as such.

What do you think?

I am sad that you think tanks require no skill.

The worst part has to be the fact that I can't disagree anymore.


As for pythons, I don't find them as frustrating as Incubi, tbh. I'm only prof 3 FG but the sheer durability means I can't really kill them, thanks to my low speeds.

Last Incubus I killed (or had a hand in killing, rather) was Beld, actually. Took three of us. I had a Gastun's.

I dont like where you are going with this, i think that if you want a crewed dropship you must ask for the normal drop ships to be made stronger and more suited to that role,, the ads imo should be a solo craft filling the role of attack helicopter, i would not be upset if it had no extra seats at all, but i am biased and but hurt about being rendered impotent against skill stacked crews.

@ Atiim: We do get a bonus to rate of fire, but not damage.

Are you sure?

I could've sworn ADS Operation gave a 2% Damage bonus per level.