I actually disagree with you. I understand your side of the story and that a blueprint LAV loaded down with an entire suite of remote explosives that are rather cheap can blow your expensive tank sky high.

But why shouldn't it? Tankers are generally cowardly players. I feel like that's half of the motivation behind skilling your character into a tank. Its people who are worried about their kill death ratio because they can't deal with losing (at a video game where everyone wins and loses on a consistent basis)

I have zero tank skills. I have never had desire to have tank skills. I don't have dropship skills either because I want to be in the thick of it, up close and personal with you guys duking it out and seeing who the better man is. Sometimes its you, sometimes its me. Its fun.

Flying in the sky and dropping death from above or rolling around in a big armored "look how big my shag-stick is" vehicle and going 70/0 in a game or camping objectives (both tank/dropship) is a cowardly move.

So why not roll a Jihad LAV right up to the tank and blow it....want to know a really smooth tactic? Its one that I use...I get the LAV going as fast as I can make it go....I can judge how far it'll roll once I jump out...I hop out, watch it go...I can switch to my remote detonator quickly and POP! Tank goes bye bye.

Tanks are annoying. They enable cowards to be cowards. I understand your call to arms to remove the jihad jeeps and I will support you on that when you also make a call to arms to remove the ability for players to be cowards.

You can rip opponents out of Titans in Titanfall, but I can't hop on the tank, open the hatch and shoot you in the face like the cowardly little terd that you are? Oh but you can shoot me in the LAV while I'm driving (I personally love that lol)

Do you see my point?

I actually disagree with you. I understand your side of the story and that a blueprint LAV loaded down with an entire suite of remote explosives that are rather cheap can blow your expensive tank sky high.

But why shouldn't it? Tankers are generally cowardly players. I feel like that's half of the motivation behind skilling your character into a tank. Its people who are worried about their kill death ratio because they can't deal with losing (at a video game where everyone wins and loses on a consistent basis)

I have zero tank skills. I have never had desire to have tank skills. I don't have dropship skills either because I want to be in the thick of it, up close and personal with you guys duking it out and seeing who the better man is. Sometimes its you, sometimes its me. Its fun.

Flying in the sky and dropping death from above or rolling around in a big armored "look how big my shag-stick is" vehicle and going 70/0 in a game or camping objectives (both tank/dropship) is a cowardly move.

So why not roll a Jihad LAV right up to the tank and blow it....want to know a really smooth tactic? Its one that I use...I get the LAV going as fast as I can make it go....I can judge how far it'll roll once I jump out...I hop out, watch it go...I can switch to my remote detonator quickly and POP! Tank goes bye bye.

Tanks are annoying. They enable cowards to be cowards. I understand your call to arms to remove the jihad jeeps and I will support you on that when you also make a call to arms to remove the ability for players to be cowards.

You can rip opponents out of Titans in Titanfall, but I can't hop on the tank, open the hatch and shoot you in the face like the cowardly little terd that you are? Oh but you can shoot me in the LAV while I'm driving (I personally love that lol)

Do you see my point?

low-risk
adjective (also low risk)
GǦ likely to be successful , or unlikely to be connected with danger or problems :

JLAVs can (and usually are) insta-killed by anything which happens to fire at the front part of the vehicle, creating a reasonable amount of danger for the Pilot. Most terrain in DUST 514 is rather bumpy, which can make hitting a vehicle at full speed difficult, creating a problem for the Pilot.

Therefore, JLAVs cannot -definitively- be considered "low-risk" I won't even bother addressing the "low-effort" argument, as it's laughably hypocritical considering how "low-effort" piloting an HAV is.

[/thread]

Most of the Earth is covered in water. So obviously that's where the majority of Earth's population lives, in water. Just because most of the terrain in Dust is bumpy doesn't mean that's where vehicles spend 90% of their time. Ground vehicles stick to the flat areas and main roads most of the time. It's rather easy to JLAV a HAV. Just push the left stick around until you run into a HAV, preferably from the rear so it doesn't notice you until it's already blown up. Even if you get blown up, your only setback is some time lost and one more death to your *precious* KDR. Your next attempt statistically will have a greater chance of success.

And lol, "low-effort" my ass. I could probably say the same about running infantry. Just point and shoot to kill stuff, right? Oh and move your left stick to move around.

JLAVs can (and usually are) insta-killed by anything which happens to fire at the front part of the vehicle, creating a reasonable amount of danger for the Pilot. Most terrain in DUST 514 is rather bumpy, which can make hitting a vehicle at full speed difficult, creating a problem for the Pilot.

Therefore, JLAVs cannot -definitively- be considered "low-risk" I won't even bother addressing the "low-effort" argument, as it's laughably hypocritical considering how "low-effort" piloting an HAV is.

[/thread]

JLAVs were introduced in 1.7 as an apparently unintended byproduct of the change to REs. At the time the vehicle armour hardeners all but prevented dangerous damage being dealt to HAVs; this left the JLAV, usually stacked with prototype level equipment (because otherwise there just wasn't enough damage for success), as the only real viable means for AVing outside a tank.
For that reason I, and many other members of the HAV community, accepted them as necessary for some form of balance.
Time passed and hardeners were nerfed. Forge guns were now somewhat viable, but the power of the rep-tanked Madrugar meant that JLAVs were still the most effective tactic for dealing with those tanks, and so we bit our tongues.
Now the armour repairers have been nerfed; as well as Large Blasters being less effective for attacking infantry, infantry AV is, as a general rule, in a very good place at the moment.

Consequently, I think the time has come to formally request that they be removed.
The JLAV is a low-ISK high-reward tactic; indeed, for much of the community it entails zero risk. It is difficult to counter short of hiding in the redline at the peak of a hill, owing to the speed and manoeuvrability of the LAV, and should it strike you there is no possible way to survive, short of a max-tank hardened Gunnlogi (the fittings being 2x Complex Heavy Extenders and 1x Hardener, and 1x Complex Heavy Extender and 2x Hardeners).

It is akin to the much-reviled 'bumper dropship' in its near-zero investment reward, and is actually much higher reward owing to the enormous number of vehicle damage points it brings.

It is also alike to the old 'murder taxi' of early Uprising, particularly considering the near-free reward those had, and to the current 'LAV Heavy', which is similarly low-investment, low-skill high reward.

I hope you'll make the right decision.

Did some JLAVing myself after I posted this thread. Wanted to see whether it was in fact as difficult as you were saying.

Well, I stole a few kills from Jason and then decided to start experimenting with placement.
It's not really a big deal to place them somewhere they won't be shot. I'd have thought it was pretty elementary.

It took somewhat less time than pulling my FG, setting up and making the kill, so 'it takes you out of the battle' is BS.

The presence of the nitrous means your LAV is as effective as a rifle at slaying. It could be argued as more effective.


HAV piloting is expensive, and the power of AV as it stands makes it definitively 'high-risk' in the sense that 'you are risking a lot of ISK that is easy to kill'. All it takes is a brain.

It is, at a high level of pilot skill, difficult to kill a HAV. I've dumped countless Sicas in matches to watch them get insta killed, while I roll around the rest of the match. I saw countless blues pull X-0 games in Somas back in 1.7-8, where X is lower than 5-10, and I'm comfortably pulling 20 kills off a stock fitting.
That you suggest skill isn't important for HAV piloting is pretty out-there. If I wanted to play a 'no-skill' playstyle I'd be maining a cheap heavy. Doesn't die, doesn't matter when it does (sound familiar? Seems like those Somas I mentioned...).


That you can honestly suggest that deploying a 500k fitting, as so many tankers do, is somehow low-risk shows a significant lack of understanding of tanking. There's a reason we're reimbursed at a high level.

All I can say is this: if you're having issues killing a Gunnlogi, go get a forge.

so you went and did some JLAVing...how many games, how many days?

would you say running a tank for a few days gives a person all the information they need to know about the intricacies of that role?

if someone plays a couple games one day tanking and just mutilates the enemy team with it, and then came on the forums and said " tanks take no skill" wouldn't you tell that person they just went up against crappy teams? you got lucky?

just because you had a few easy kills with a JLAV in your shallow diversion into that role makes you neither master or qualified educator of such....

furthermore I find it an interesting caveat that for all your QQ about JLAVs you admit to experimenting with them only recently...
yet often in the past spoke of their lack of skill as if from 1st hand experiences.

and as if this chicken dinner of a post wasn't already a winner, for desert you admit forges are more of a threat, further proving a point many of us have been trying to make that JLAVs aren't all that hard to deal with...

/slow clap

It doesn't take long to master that which requires little skill, if any...

I could say the same about tanks....

lol. I know nothing...

^ Above poster isnt very smart. Have you ever even tried tanking? Do you even know how much sp/isk it takes to become a real tanker because im sure you dont.

Atiim go back to GD where you belong.

Or, since you seem to be incapable of forming a valid argument pertaining to item balance, how about you leave the Features and Ideas Discussions sub-forum?

Also

Or, since you seem to be incapable of forming a valid argument pertaining to item balance, how about you leave the Features and Ideas Discussions sub-forum?

Also

^ Above poster isnt very smart. Have you ever even tried tanking? Do you even know how much sp/isk it takes to become a real tanker because im sure you dont.

yes I have tanked.... but that wasn't my point... I was trying to convey the frustration of non tankers who are told by tankers their means of anti tanking takes no skill, while tankers act like they are the only skill intensive role in the game.

I'm sorry that went over your head... I'll try to type more slowly for you in the future....

How about this, then: in a world of JLAVs, what is the point of FGs and SL vs. HAVs?

Also, yeah, your method of anti-tanking takes no skill. HAV piloting is approximately as skill-intensive as FGing, and significantly more SP and ISK intensive.

I never said jlav is my style of av... I use nades, swarms (proto) and forge too (at 3 atm)

the point is to give another option, both effective and fun... and seriously... whats the point???? then I could say the same of rifles, why have more than one type... that's just a ridiculous thing to ask....

and it does take skill... its all about dodging fire sneaking into position maneuvering well and hitting the tank the right way and compensating afterward for a second try if it doesn't pan out... and yes HAV is sp intensive... but that doesn't mean it takes a lot of player effort... whether tanking does or doesn't take skil isn't even the point...

the point is to respect the way other people play even if it is different than yours, so long as they aren't using exploits or other cheats....

in this whole thread you still haven't told me how jlavs break the game.... because you cant.... because they don't.

How about this, then: in a world of JLAVs, what is the point of FGs and SL vs. HAVs?

Also, yeah, your method of anti-tanking takes no skill. HAV piloting is approximately as skill-intensive as FGing, and significantly more SP and ISK intensive.

JLAVs aren't ideal for every situation, because the terrain may be ridiculously bumpy, and you may be facing a tanker who's actually competent and destroys the JLAV every time.

The point of Forge Guns and Swarm Launchers, would be long range AV Weaponry.


Swarm Launchers require that you have situational awareness, as you -typically- cannot see around you during engagements because your too focused on the vehicle.

They also require that you make every shot count (resource management) due to the awful ammunition reserves, and they require patience in the sense that firing at the wrong time guarantees that your target escapes (the only other AV weapon actively requiring this skill is the Plasma Cannon).

HAV Piloting is not as skill intensive as Forging. The FGer puts themselves at risk to far more items, and has a TTK far lower than that of an HAV. When you also consider the fact that an HAV can easily escape danger in most situations, they're quite literally the easiest item to use in DUST 514.

Dude, are you even hearing yourself? It takes absolutely no skill to come up behind a tank and crash into it. What more could you possibly learn from you first few attempts? Tanks on the other hand require a lot of time to learn and to get good. Being able to slay infantry doesn't mean you're good or skilled with tanks. Being skilled with tanks means that you can win vehicle engagements and successfully defend yourself from multiple AV.

If you say that tanks require no skill, then how come (newb) Sicas and Somas get destroyed so easily? My alt with standard swarms and AV grenades has a fun time blowing them up.

you cant always just come up behind a tank.... and in the case of a madrugar if you hit the back you you just jump over them cause of their ramp like backs...so you have to hit their sides or fronts

sicas, somas are easier to hit, but not if they have gunners plus they are quicker so trying to hit them in the back can be a real challenge if they are also running from you because the impact of hitting their backside while they are also moving is not enough to blow up.

trying to get them on uneven ground presnts a whole new challenge because lavs have no spped on rough terrain even with a fuel injector, so you have to try to sneak up on them get out and manually detonate...

so theres a few tid bits for you right there... all of which I'm sure you knew nothing about judging from your ignorant post.

furthermore I can tell you now why your such a bad tanker and have issues with jlavs.... don't just sit their firing your gun... you have to move around, just sitting in one place makes you an easy target... and certainly if you are stationary don't get tunnel vision in your first person mode, or you will not only get snuck up on by jlav but RE scouts as well...

so I hope I have enlightened you a bit... though I doubt it, you seem incapable of learning much of anything, may I suggest you return to D UNI and actually pay attention this time....