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Harpyja
Legio DXIV
1991
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Posted - 2014.07.04 02:29:00 -
[1] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:Considering AV actually affects vehicles properly (since the proficiency bug was fixed) and since the vehicle changes were made to render them mortal like everything else, JLAVs are entirely uncommon. Are they irritating for you? Yes. Are ramming dropships annoying? Yes. Do either of them need to go? No.
JLAVs are no longer necessary, but that doesn't make them invalid.
Until I can reliably run you over with my Onikuma (sorry, I got no BPOs) and instantly cause you to go ISK-negative for the entire battle, JLAVs shouldn't exist.
Until I can reliably run over protosuits (without making them revivable) and make them go ISK-negative for two whole battles per protosuit, JLAVs shouldn't exist.
Because that's what it's like for tanks. And it's not fun when there are other valid methods. Would you not get pissed every time an LAV ran over your 500k ISK protosuit? When they could've engaged you toe to toe with a rifle but instead decided to choose a murder taxi, would you not get pissed every time this happened once every few battles?
Sure, you could jump to the side, but if you couldn't hide in a building but instead were forced to stay in the open with a big sign that says "I'm right here," the murder taxi would just come back again and have another shot, until it finally got you.
Sure, let's give you a Flaylock that can one-shot said murder taxi. But you only got three shots and you can't even turn as fast as a heavy at 0 sensitivity. Even if you get the murder taxi, it'll be back again, with the only loss being time. It will get you when you least expect it.
That's my life right now. Full of paranoia each time I bring out my Gunnlogi. Because I'm not nor was I ever from a rich corp where any losses don't matter other than on my KDR. So every ISK loss hurts.
"By His light, and His will"- The Scriptures, 12:32
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"Scouts should fart repeatedly while cloaked"- TechMechMeds
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Harpyja
Legio DXIV
2045
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Posted - 2014.07.10 16:27:00 -
[2] - Quote
Bump
"By His light, and His will"- The Scriptures, 12:32
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"Scouts should fart repeatedly while cloaked"- TechMechMeds
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Harpyja
Legio DXIV
2045
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Posted - 2014.07.10 18:05:00 -
[3] - Quote
Seymour KrelbornX wrote:how quickly you forget all those matches you were in where tanks stomped you and there was not a JLAV in sight.... you sir have no credibility....
No I haven't forgotten them.
JLAVs shouldn't be the be-all end-all AV solution to tanks. Was I pulling JLAVs? No, I was pulling out swarms and AV grenades and even had some success at pushing back some tanks. I decided to skill into swarms, not remotes.
JLAVs are low risk, low investment, high reward. If you have a BPO LAV, each attempt costs you 0 ISK. But you can destroy upwards of 700k ISK with a JLAV. What makes it even worse is that it's an unforeseeable OHK. I only played a few battles today so only one JLAV blew me up, but it was enough where I barely made any profits today. I only heard it a split second before I blew up. I reacted to the sound of the LAV and went to activate my hardener but I was already blown up.
JLAVs are not a fair tactic. Until I can slaughter infantry (which I don't by the way with XT-201s) at little risk and with low investment (like 50k ISK, not 500k ISK), only then will I see JLAVs as an even AV tactic.
It just makes me sad and annoyed when I blow up peoples' vehicles with my missiles (because that's what they were f***ing designed to do) that they switch to a JLAV and blow me up, because they couldn't win against me in a fair encounter. I still get JLAV'ed just for being on the field. I'm not any more dangerous to infantry than a militia free suit is against a full proto suit. Only if you're being stupid will you get killed, but then your stupidity isn't an excuse to use a JLAV against me.
"By His light, and His will"- The Scriptures, 12:32
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"Scouts should fart repeatedly while cloaked"- TechMechMeds
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Harpyja
Legio DXIV
2048
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Posted - 2014.07.10 23:08:00 -
[4] - Quote
Seymour KrelbornX wrote:I can also kill a 200k proto suit with a 0 isk dren suit...
I can kill aproto with 1 1500 isk remote...
I can run over a proto with a bpo lav
I can blow up a tank, ads, and infantry with a 0 isk 0 investment stationary turret on a map....
should we remove all of these possibilities too? no? then why the JLAV?
do you see how petty, shameless, and inconsistent this QQ request is?
You can't compare killing proto suits cheaply to killing tanks with JLAVs.
Free suit vs proto suit is more like militia fit Sica against proto fit Gunnlogi. If the Gunnlogi loses, well it got outplayed or it just sucked.
Sure you can run over a proto with a BPO LAV. It probably wasn't enough to make him go negative for the next couple of matches though. And if he's smart he won't let you run over him again.
Turret installations are well known. If it's red it's dead. Or yellow... it's still dead. It's a pilot's own fault if they leave a red turret installation. They should've known that it's red.
You bring up weak arguments for the defense of JLAVs. I think you just don't want to have to actually work for it and risk an AV suit trying to blow up a tank. Risk vs reward. If you want to blow up tanks so easily, then you should probably invest in a full proto AV suit.
A JLAV is the reverse equivalent of the murder taxi which could 'death tap' any infantry and instakill them, while being able to tank better than a tank and has much higher mobility. You infantry cried for their removal. I think it's only fair that JLAVs don't exist either.
"By His light, and His will"- The Scriptures, 12:32
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"Scouts should fart repeatedly while cloaked"- TechMechMeds
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Harpyja
Legio DXIV
2050
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Posted - 2014.07.11 13:47:00 -
[5] - Quote
Takahashi Kashuken wrote:Wont happen
Infantry wont allow it
The removal of the JLAV is a buff to vehicles and also stops lazy players who have 0SP invested in AV
Cant buff vehicles thats bad, only nerf
Yep, infantry can't let vehicles be on equal footing.
They cried to remove free murder taxis and nerf collision mechanics that would allow them and the nearly indestructible logi LAVs to road kill people with ease.
Yet they insist on keeping JLAVs. Infantry has always had the most f***ed up double standards in Dust.
"By His light, and His will"- The Scriptures, 12:32
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"Scouts should fart repeatedly while cloaked"- TechMechMeds
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Harpyja
Legio DXIV
2050
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Posted - 2014.07.11 13:59:00 -
[6] - Quote
medomai grey wrote:Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:No.
Your post betrays an absolute failure of comprehension.
In no possible way is dying the issue here.
If you read my OP you would realise exactly what my attitudes to 'dying' are. They have nothing, and I repeat nothing to do with losing the ISK.
I am fully aware that by bringing my vehicle onto the field I risk losing it. I have been insta killed by forge guns, I've misjudged my enemy and been destroyed, I've simply scrubbed up and lost a particle cannon to a Sica.
REs are 'legit AV'. REs strapped to a LAV for zero investment should not be.
Every time I pull my tank onto the field I risk between 250 and 600k.
In the same way, every time I bring my AFG onto the battlefield I risk between 60 and 150k.
If I was to use a JLAV it would be literally free, and have a far more definite outcome.
You call this a 'risk and reward' game.
This is bleedingly obvious. What should also be bleedingly obvious is that a JLAV skews that 'risk vs reward' enormously.
But hey. "It's a sandbox". So how's about I get back my Charybdis and we return the collision damage to what it used to be? No? You people sure do love to contradict yourselves. 
At least it's not double standards, which infantry always seems to have.
Don't you remember when you cried to remove free murder taxis and nerf the collision mechanics? Yet, infantry is defending the use of JLAVs. Please just shut up.
"By His light, and His will"- The Scriptures, 12:32
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"Scouts should fart repeatedly while cloaked"- TechMechMeds
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Harpyja
Legio DXIV
2053
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Posted - 2014.07.11 15:53:00 -
[7] - Quote
medomai grey wrote:Benjamin Ciscko wrote:medomai grey wrote:Harpyja wrote:At least it's not double standards, which infantry always seems to have.
Don't you remember when you cried to remove free murder taxis and nerf the collision mechanics? Yet, infantry is defending the use of JLAVs. Please just shut up. Oh, I see. So only infantry have double standards eh? That's funny, because I do recall a bunch of vocal vehicle users claiming that it should require teamwork to kill them but dismissed any suggestion that it should require teamwork to make vehicle effective at killing infantry. Forgive me, my memory doesn't seem to be up to par. Please do remind me of that time " I" bitched and moaned about these murder taxis. And while you're at it, do tell me of these other things that you've assumed I've said. And because you asked soo politely, no. Poking people of your... intellect is too fun.  And besides, you took your precious time to reply to me. It would be awfully rude not to do the same. Tell me when you're AV teamwork was nerfed because I can distinctly tell you when my teamwork got nerfed. And I still don't get why infantry feel that one FG on a roof should be able to deny most area's of the map for all tanks and the methods you infantry suggested of teamwork was impractical and would ruin tanking while you AV thought it should take teamwork for us not to be solo'ed. ^ See double standards. Clearly argues that vehicles should not be taken out by a solo AV user, but not once did he mention that a lone vehicle user should be less effective at killing infantry. Thank you Benjamin for proving my point that even vehicle users have double standards.
When was the last time you saw a missile/railgun tank slaughter infantry? We have gunners to combat infantry, AKA TEAMWORK
"By His light, and His will"- The Scriptures, 12:32
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"Scouts should fart repeatedly while cloaked"- TechMechMeds
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Harpyja
Legio DXIV
2074
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Posted - 2014.07.13 04:59:00 -
[8] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Quote:low-risk
adjective (also low risk)
GǦ likely to be successful , or unlikely to be connected with danger or problems :
JLAVs can (and usually are) insta-killed by anything which happens to fire at the front part of the vehicle, creating a reasonable amount of danger for the Pilot. Most terrain in DUST 514 is rather bumpy, which can make hitting a vehicle at full speed difficult, creating a problem for the Pilot. Therefore, JLAVs cannot -definitively- be considered "low-risk" I won't even bother addressing the "low-effort" argument, as it's laughably hypocritical considering how "low-effort" piloting an HAV is. [/thread]
Most of the Earth is covered in water. So obviously that's where the majority of Earth's population lives, in water. Just because most of the terrain in Dust is bumpy doesn't mean that's where vehicles spend 90% of their time. Ground vehicles stick to the flat areas and main roads most of the time. It's rather easy to JLAV a HAV. Just push the left stick around until you run into a HAV, preferably from the rear so it doesn't notice you until it's already blown up. Even if you get blown up, your only setback is some time lost and one more death to your *precious* KDR. Your next attempt statistically will have a greater chance of success.
And lol, "low-effort" my ass. I could probably say the same about running infantry. Just point and shoot to kill stuff, right? Oh and move your left stick to move around.
"By His light, and His will"- The Scriptures, 12:32
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"Scouts should fart repeatedly while cloaked"- TechMechMeds
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Harpyja
Legio DXIV
2078
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Posted - 2014.07.14 02:24:00 -
[9] - Quote
Seymour KrelbornX wrote:so you went and did some JLAVing...how many games, how many days?
would you say running a tank for a few days gives a person all the information they need to know about the intricacies of that role?
if someone plays a couple games one day tanking and just mutilates the enemy team with it, and then came on the forums and said " tanks take no skill" wouldn't you tell that person they just went up against crappy teams? you got lucky?
just because you had a few easy kills with a JLAV in your shallow diversion into that role makes you neither master or qualified educator of such....
furthermore I find it an interesting caveat that for all your QQ about JLAVs you admit to experimenting with them only recently...
yet often in the past spoke of their lack of skill as if from 1st hand experiences.
and as if this chicken dinner of a post wasn't already a winner, for desert you admit forges are more of a threat, further proving a point many of us have been trying to make that JLAVs aren't all that hard to deal with...
/slow clap
It doesn't take long to master that which requires little skill, if any...
I'd consider a day's worth of JLAVing a fair amount of experience on the subject, because honestly, there's not that much to it. Just slap on some RE's (which are the only SP requirement of JLAVs) onto a militia LAV or a BPO (a militia fuel injector is optional for higher success). You could also perform some placement tests (like Lorhak did) to see where's the best place is to put them. I don't see how much there is to learn on how to better drive an LAV after a few games or attempts, you just have to make sure you catch the tank from the rear.
"By His light, and His will"- The Scriptures, 12:32
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"Scouts should fart repeatedly while cloaked"- TechMechMeds
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Harpyja
Legio DXIV
2079
|
Posted - 2014.07.14 04:03:00 -
[10] - Quote
Seymour KrelbornX wrote:Harpyja wrote:Seymour KrelbornX wrote:so you went and did some JLAVing...how many games, how many days?
would you say running a tank for a few days gives a person all the information they need to know about the intricacies of that role?
if someone plays a couple games one day tanking and just mutilates the enemy team with it, and then came on the forums and said " tanks take no skill" wouldn't you tell that person they just went up against crappy teams? you got lucky?
just because you had a few easy kills with a JLAV in your shallow diversion into that role makes you neither master or qualified educator of such....
furthermore I find it an interesting caveat that for all your QQ about JLAVs you admit to experimenting with them only recently...
yet often in the past spoke of their lack of skill as if from 1st hand experiences.
and as if this chicken dinner of a post wasn't already a winner, for desert you admit forges are more of a threat, further proving a point many of us have been trying to make that JLAVs aren't all that hard to deal with...
/slow clap It doesn't take long to master that which requires little skill, if any... I could say the same about tanks....
lol. You know nothing...
"By His light, and His will"- The Scriptures, 12:32
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"Scouts should fart repeatedly while cloaked"- TechMechMeds
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Harpyja
Legio DXIV
2081
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Posted - 2014.07.15 14:37:00 -
[11] - Quote
Seymour KrelbornX wrote:Leeroy Gannarsein wrote:Seymour KrelbornX wrote:Death Shadow117 wrote:^ Above poster isnt very smart. Have you ever even tried tanking? Do you even know how much sp/isk it takes to become a real tanker because im sure you dont. yes I have tanked.... but that wasn't my point... I was trying to convey the frustration of non tankers who are told by tankers their means of anti tanking takes no skill, while tankers act like they are the only skill intensive role in the game. I'm sorry that went over your head... I'll try to type more slowly for you in the future.... How about this, then: in a world of JLAVs, what is the point of FGs and SL vs. HAVs? Also, yeah, your method of anti-tanking takes no skill. HAV piloting is approximately as skill-intensive as FGing, and significantly more SP and ISK intensive. I never said jlav is my style of av... I use nades, swarms (proto) and forge too (at 3 atm) the point is to give another option, both effective and fun... and seriously... whats the point???? then I could say the same of rifles, why have more than one type... that's just a ridiculous thing to ask.... and it does take skill... its all about dodging fire sneaking into position maneuvering well and hitting the tank the right way and compensating afterward for a second try if it doesn't pan out... and yes HAV is sp intensive... but that doesn't mean it takes a lot of player effort... whether tanking does or doesn't take skil isn't even the point... the point is to respect the way other people play even if it is different than yours, so long as they aren't using exploits or other cheats.... in this whole thread you still haven't told me how jlavs break the game.... because you cant.... because they don't.
Dude, are you even hearing yourself? It takes absolutely no skill to come up behind a tank and crash into it. What more could you possibly learn from you first few attempts? Tanks on the other hand require a lot of time to learn and to get good. Being able to slay infantry doesn't mean you're good or skilled with tanks. Being skilled with tanks means that you can win vehicle engagements and successfully defend yourself from multiple AV.
If you say that tanks require no skill, then how come (newb) Sicas and Somas get destroyed so easily? My alt with standard swarms and AV grenades has a fun time blowing them up.
"By His light, and His will"- The Scriptures, 12:32
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Harpyja
Legio DXIV
2084
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 19:05:00 -
[12] - Quote
Seymour KrelbornX wrote:Harpyja wrote:Seymour KrelbornX wrote:Leeroy Gannarsein wrote:Seymour KrelbornX wrote:
yes I have tanked.... but that wasn't my point... I was trying to convey the frustration of non tankers who are told by tankers their means of anti tanking takes no skill, while tankers act like they are the only skill intensive role in the game.
I'm sorry that went over your head... I'll try to type more slowly for you in the future....
How about this, then: in a world of JLAVs, what is the point of FGs and SL vs. HAVs? Also, yeah, your method of anti-tanking takes no skill. HAV piloting is approximately as skill-intensive as FGing, and significantly more SP and ISK intensive. I never said jlav is my style of av... I use nades, swarms (proto) and forge too (at 3 atm) the point is to give another option, both effective and fun... and seriously... whats the point???? then I could say the same of rifles, why have more than one type... that's just a ridiculous thing to ask.... and it does take skill... its all about dodging fire sneaking into position maneuvering well and hitting the tank the right way and compensating afterward for a second try if it doesn't pan out... and yes HAV is sp intensive... but that doesn't mean it takes a lot of player effort... whether tanking does or doesn't take skil isn't even the point... the point is to respect the way other people play even if it is different than yours, so long as they aren't using exploits or other cheats.... in this whole thread you still haven't told me how jlavs break the game.... because you cant.... because they don't. Dude, are you even hearing yourself? It takes absolutely no skill to come up behind a tank and crash into it. What more could you possibly learn from you first few attempts? Tanks on the other hand require a lot of time to learn and to get good. Being able to slay infantry doesn't mean you're good or skilled with tanks. Being skilled with tanks means that you can win vehicle engagements and successfully defend yourself from multiple AV. If you say that tanks require no skill, then how come (newb) Sicas and Somas get destroyed so easily? My alt with standard swarms and AV grenades has a fun time blowing them up. you cant always just come up behind a tank.... and in the case of a madrugar if you hit the back you you just jump over them cause of their ramp like backs...so you have to hit their sides or fronts sicas, somas are easier to hit, but not if they have gunners plus they are quicker so trying to hit them in the back can be a real challenge if they are also running from you because the impact of hitting their backside while they are also moving is not enough to blow up. trying to get them on uneven ground presnts a whole new challenge because lavs have no spped on rough terrain even with a fuel injector, so you have to try to sneak up on them get out and manually detonate... so theres a few tid bits for you right there... all of which I'm sure you knew nothing about judging from your ignorant post. furthermore I can tell you now why your such a bad tanker and have issues with jlavs.... don't just sit their firing your gun... you have to move around, just sitting in one place makes you an easy target... and certainly if you are stationary don't get tunnel vision in your first person mode, or you will not only get snuck up on by jlav but RE scouts as well... so I hope I have enlightened you a bit... though I doubt it, you seem incapable of learning much of anything, may I suggest you return to D UNI and actually pay attention this time....
Lol. You're the ignorant one here. Only someone stupid enough will try to JLAV a tank in rough terrain. Vehicles don't spend the majority of their time in rough terrain so just make one more lap and the tank will most likely be out of the rough terrain.
And I don't do any of the things you mentioned. I drive in 3rd person almost all of the time because missiles seem to hit things better in CQC from 3rd person (and also better situational awareness). I also hate stopping so I never stop for more than a few seconds, enough time to land a few accurate missiles to kill someone hacking something or someone that's just standing still. I'll just be driving around randomly when a JLAV just suddenly comes out of nowhere and rams me from the side or the back.
"By His light, and His will"- The Scriptures, 12:32
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Harpyja
Legio DXIV
2084
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Posted - 2014.07.15 20:26:00 -
[13] - Quote
Seymour KrelbornX wrote:when did I say vehicles spent most of their time in rough terrain? I said when they are.....
I am not going to deign to respond to you anymore.... you are a scrub and I'm tired of arguing with you... if it wasn't obvious already to your pea brain ratati doesn't care about the tank QQ and jlavs are here to stay...
I have made valid counters to all jlav QQ and my likes on this thread are proof of this... you and lorhak have run out of anything sensible to say and have strayed into the realm of ridiculousness and desperation....
tell me why jlavs break the game, until you can come up with a sensible reason... which you cant, cause they don't, I'm done entertaining your moronic perceptions of this dead game...
Lol. Nobody's QQ'ing here. Though I do find it rather funny you wanted to remove frisbee remotes... you're the stereotypical infantry scrub that doesn't want anything to kill them other than another rifle. I'm done talking to you; your brain's the size of a grain of sand 
"By His light, and His will"- The Scriptures, 12:32
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Harpyja
Legio DXIV
2084
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Posted - 2014.07.15 23:54:00 -
[14] - Quote
taxi bastard wrote:its not ok to JLAV, but its ok to be a tank scrub with a heavy and HMG to jump out the tank and mow down AV players if their loosing?
JLAV is at least a realistic tactic.......instant poping in and out of tanks is not!
No, it's not OK to hop out with a heavy and an HMG. I don't do it because 1) I don't have SP into HMGs or Heavies 2) I prefer to have a rep tool to rep my Gunnlogi's armor and 3) I personally consider it better to at least attempt to drive my Gunnlogi to safety rather than hop out and let it sit there for AV's pleasure while I attempt to kill them and risking dying with my rather squishy dropsuit anyways.
But in the end, it seems that JLAV's don't care that I'm not a scrub and I get the same treatment at the end of the day 
"By His light, and His will"- The Scriptures, 12:32
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Harpyja
Legio DXIV
2099
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Posted - 2014.07.17 04:58:00 -
[15] - Quote
Seymour KrelbornX wrote:ok so basically you went 12/3 with JLAVs?
and how many kills you get as a tanker? 20/0? 30/2? 40/6?
12/3 is a pretty average score for infantry, down right terrible for a tanker.... I'd say it's pretty balanced... thanks for once again proving my point that JLAVs are fine...
Just shut up and stop embarrassing yourself further.
Killing 12 tanks is the ISK equivalent of 840k (12 militia tanks at 70k each) to 8.4 million (12 proto fit tanks at 700k each). Now how much infantry do you need to kill to to destroy that much ISK? Destroying an equivalent amount of ISK from killing infantry requires a lot more effort and time.
Tanks need to be a challenge and require more effort to destroy than infantry, but JLAVs skew the balance against tanks. JLAVs have high success rates and require little to no skill to be effective, being able to kill tanks as easily as infantry. Enemy tank being a problem? Just use a JLAV and save yourself the effort and risk of using an advanced/proto AV suit!
And what's the problem with those KDRs? You haven't seen infantry go 20/0, 30/2, 40/6? I've actually gone 43/4 with my advanced Amarr assault with an advanced laser rifle; would you call that OP too? Please, I see a lot more infantry get such high KDRs than tanks.
And let me point out again that tanks cost a lot more than infantry. I think it's fair to say that a good tank costs 10 times more than a good dropsuit. So even if a tanker goes 30/2 or 40/6, to put it equivalent to infantry, it'd be the same as an infantry KDR of 30/20 or 40/60 in terms of ISK efficiency, or an AV'er getting 3 tank kills and 2 deaths or 4 tank kills and 6 deaths, all of which are completely reasonable for an AV player. The infantry KDR equivalents are not reasonable, however; since most infantry that get that many kills get considerably less deaths. Be glad that tanks don't go 100/1 for an infantry equivalent of 10/1.
I think you've exhausted your defense of JLAVs a long time ago, so save everyone the trouble and stop coming up with these bullshit replies.
"By His light, and His will"- The Scriptures, 12:32
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Harpyja
Legio DXIV
2099
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Posted - 2014.07.17 15:03:00 -
[16] - Quote
Seymour KrelbornX wrote:as a last word in this pitiful QQ thread,
when tanks become a challenge to operate, and require a team to use, only then should they become a challenge to destroy and need a team to beat.
until then gtfo ya scrub tanker k/d padding tryhards!
K/D padders? My missile tank is anything but a K/D padder. It's only best for killing vehicles and I only get a handful of infantry kills every battle. I average somewhere between 5 and 10 kills every battle but usually place at or near the top in terms of WP, because vehicles give a lot of WP, so I don't need infantry kills. Whenever I'm in tank hunting mode, I just simply drive past any enemy infantry.
As an AV tank my damage application is best against vehicles, not infantry. I have gunners if I want any good infantry fighting capabilities. I also have strong defense as a result of being an AV tank so I can endure sustained fights, which also makes me a tougher nut against AV. So in either case, it should take effort and at least two people to bring me down. If it's just me and another AVer, he shouldn't be able to take me down fast enough. Two or more should have a much higher chance, since I need at least one more person in my Gunnlogi to be able to fight infantry, which makes it a fair 2 for 2.
JLAVs simply screw this balance by allowing just one person to take out such a tank with little to no effort. It'd be the same as having an infantry alternative where any one person can easily kill a proto stomping squad with little to no effort and zero risk with an 80% success rate.
"By His light, and His will"- The Scriptures, 12:32
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