I responded to it in the same thread.


but you're not being one shot.... it takes 6 remotes to kill you in a tank.... that's 6 shots.
There is a huge difference between a prof 5 IAFG and a JLAV.

I imagine people would be complaining somewhat if a CRG SG could one-shot a max EHP proto Sentinel with a bodyshot.

How about this: when I'm in proto (or BPO) fighting a BPO (or proto) we're on even territory. In the time it takes for me to kill him e could have killed me.

Using up a clone is not a significant disadvantage. The only thing on which it had an actual effect, nine times out of ten, is your KDR. I can count on my fingers the number of times matches have ended with fewer than ten clones per side for me in the last week.

If I'm in a Militia Tank and I kill a proto there's ABSOLUTELY something wrong with the equation. That something is MLT tanks, and I'm not trying to say they're in a good place, far from it. So that's not a valid point.

I am in no way asking for a 'guaranteed I-win button'. To continue your comparison what you're saying is a BPO should be viable in PC. It is not.

If it takes six remotes it is not six shots. It is six remotes. One does not 'shoot' remotes. It is foolish to compare the detonation method of a remote explosive to a forge gun's firing mechanic (in the sense that you're implicitly doing by suggesting the single impact of the 'manned cruise missile' that is a JLAV is multiple shots).

It is a single source of damage all detonating within an irrelevantly short period of time of one-another. The fact that there are multiple devices involved is not relevant. I hardly think people would suggest that Ishukone Nova Knives are incapable of 'one-shotting' a heavy, despite the fact that it technically takes two swipes.

EDIT: forgot the squad comment.

Let's say I have a full squad of super-team-players all in FotM proto gear running 5+ KDRs and huge win/loss. There's a few LAVs on the field. They tell me every time a red LAV goes by, especially those headed in my direction (not that you can tell, but for the sake of argument I've got the defend order).
Sometimes it happens that a blue LAV intersects the red one and it's just the blue one that goes by.

Sometimes it goes by me and I shoot it.

But there's only five of them and they can't cover the whole field. LAVs are quick and stealthy, and the presence of blue LAVs means audio alone is not a tell - visual confirmation is required.

So I go tank hunting, or I prepare to push a point in advance, or I do something that takes me out of their immediate line of sight. I get AVed but I survive or kill them because I'm competent, and probably better than most AVers. All the while LAVs are driving around and the whine of the engines is constant. I can't activate my modules on reflex because there's no point.

All of a sudden I explode.
Or maybe I see him coming, and I shoot at him. And I score +75 Baloch, but the REs don't blow.


How's that? Better?

Bump

No I haven't forgotten them.

JLAVs shouldn't be the be-all end-all AV solution to tanks. Was I pulling JLAVs? No, I was pulling out swarms and AV grenades and even had some success at pushing back some tanks. I decided to skill into swarms, not remotes.

JLAVs are low risk, low investment, high reward. If you have a BPO LAV, each attempt costs you 0 ISK. But you can destroy upwards of 700k ISK with a JLAV. What makes it even worse is that it's an unforeseeable OHK. I only played a few battles today so only one JLAV blew me up, but it was enough where I barely made any profits today. I only heard it a split second before I blew up. I reacted to the sound of the LAV and went to activate my hardener but I was already blown up.

JLAVs are not a fair tactic. Until I can slaughter infantry (which I don't by the way with XT-201s) at little risk and with low investment (like 50k ISK, not 500k ISK), only then will I see JLAVs as an even AV tactic.

It just makes me sad and annoyed when I blow up peoples' vehicles with my missiles (because that's what they were f***ing designed to do) that they switch to a JLAV and blow me up, because they couldn't win against me in a fair encounter. I still get JLAV'ed just for being on the field. I'm not any more dangerous to infantry than a militia free suit is against a full proto suit. Only if you're being stupid will you get killed, but then your stupidity isn't an excuse to use a JLAV against me.

You can't compare killing proto suits cheaply to killing tanks with JLAVs.

Free suit vs proto suit is more like militia fit Sica against proto fit Gunnlogi. If the Gunnlogi loses, well it got outplayed or it just sucked.

Sure you can run over a proto with a BPO LAV. It probably wasn't enough to make him go negative for the next couple of matches though. And if he's smart he won't let you run over him again.

Turret installations are well known. If it's red it's dead. Or yellow... it's still dead. It's a pilot's own fault if they leave a red turret installation. They should've known that it's red.

You bring up weak arguments for the defense of JLAVs. I think you just don't want to have to actually work for it and risk an AV suit trying to blow up a tank. Risk vs reward. If you want to blow up tanks so easily, then you should probably invest in a full proto AV suit.

A JLAV is the reverse equivalent of the murder taxi which could 'death tap' any infantry and instakill them, while being able to tank better than a tank and has much higher mobility. You infantry cried for their removal. I think it's only fair that JLAVs don't exist either.

ROFL
You do realize they nerfed LAV collision damage because it was OP and removed the infinite amount of LAVs they would give you because it was unfair that 0 ISK could easily flatten a proto suit.

Da fug what game are you playing because in DUST 514 all turrets cost ISK and I have 6 mil sp split between the 3 turrets, I consider 20% of my sp an sp investment.

You just want to protect an easy mode crutch.

When was the last time you saw a missile/railgun tank slaughter infantry? We have gunners to combat infantry, AKA TEAMWORK

Its different because with your dren its just like a sica killing a proto tank. Wouldnt you be mad when you got insta killed by an sg and went isk negative for 3-4 matches. Putting RE's on a tank is like sneaking up on a tunnel visioned gatling gunner. If they know youre there your dead or they're gone. I dont bother that i lost my tank im pissed because it was lost to some retards tactics because he was to scared to shoot av at me.

Man you took the words right out of my mouth. The moral here is Tanker=Cowardly fool
BTW you can get LAV BPO's?

Most of the Earth is covered in water. So obviously that's where the majority of Earth's population lives, in water. Just because most of the terrain in Dust is bumpy doesn't mean that's where vehicles spend 90% of their time. Ground vehicles stick to the flat areas and main roads most of the time. It's rather easy to JLAV a HAV. Just push the left stick around until you run into a HAV, preferably from the rear so it doesn't notice you until it's already blown up. Even if you get blown up, your only setback is some time lost and one more death to your *precious* KDR. Your next attempt statistically will have a greater chance of success.

And lol, "low-effort" my ass. I could probably say the same about running infantry. Just point and shoot to kill stuff, right? Oh and move your left stick to move around.

Did some JLAVing myself after I posted this thread. Wanted to see whether it was in fact as difficult as you were saying.

Well, I stole a few kills from Jason and then decided to start experimenting with placement.
It's not really a big deal to place them somewhere they won't be shot. I'd have thought it was pretty elementary.

It took somewhat less time than pulling my FG, setting up and making the kill, so 'it takes you out of the battle' is BS.

The presence of the nitrous means your LAV is as effective as a rifle at slaying. It could be argued as more effective.


HAV piloting is expensive, and the power of AV as it stands makes it definitively 'high-risk' in the sense that 'you are risking a lot of ISK that is easy to kill'. All it takes is a brain.

It is, at a high level of pilot skill, difficult to kill a HAV. I've dumped countless Sicas in matches to watch them get insta killed, while I roll around the rest of the match. I saw countless blues pull X-0 games in Somas back in 1.7-8, where X is lower than 5-10, and I'm comfortably pulling 20 kills off a stock fitting.
That you suggest skill isn't important for HAV piloting is pretty out-there. If I wanted to play a 'no-skill' playstyle I'd be maining a cheap heavy. Doesn't die, doesn't matter when it does (sound familiar? Seems like those Somas I mentioned...).


That you can honestly suggest that deploying a 500k fitting, as so many tankers do, is somehow low-risk shows a significant lack of understanding of tanking. There's a reason we're reimbursed at a high level.

All I can say is this: if you're having issues killing a Gunnlogi, go get a forge.

It doesn't take long to master that which requires little skill, if any...

lol. I know nothing...

^ Above poster isnt very smart. Have you ever even tried tanking? Do you even know how much sp/isk it takes to become a real tanker because im sure you dont.

How about this, then: in a world of JLAVs, what is the point of FGs and SL vs. HAVs?

Also, yeah, your method of anti-tanking takes no skill. HAV piloting is approximately as skill-intensive as FGing, and significantly more SP and ISK intensive.

Dude, are you even hearing yourself? It takes absolutely no skill to come up behind a tank and crash into it. What more could you possibly learn from you first few attempts? Tanks on the other hand require a lot of time to learn and to get good. Being able to slay infantry doesn't mean you're good or skilled with tanks. Being skilled with tanks means that you can win vehicle engagements and successfully defend yourself from multiple AV.

If you say that tanks require no skill, then how come (newb) Sicas and Somas get destroyed so easily? My alt with standard swarms and AV grenades has a fun time blowing them up.

I do wish to point out that dealing with JLAVs when we had no dispersion was fine since a good tanker could pick off the remotes if they had the piece of mind....... now that the dispersion is atroscious...... half your shots will miss the LAV, 45% will miss your intended target on the LAV, and odds are even after a solid 3-4 seconds of firing your enemy will drive with impunity into the side of your vastly more expensive and SP invested vehicle......

This is false JLAV drivers simply put the re's on the vehicle then switch to a free/cheap suit to avoid a majority of expenses.

Fail

hardly... I have great success with it, and I live this way

The only thing that I want in a game is balance of which that requires skill, and not a bunch of winers who can't deal with it themselves or a small group of people. I can not believe people who speak of encounters of a single tank that is impervious with more than two players targeting it. To me that simply implies just how incompetent they are. When tanks were 'OP' all you had to do was ignore them or get two AV guys to get it to screw off... yet nearly every AV player I saw thought it was a great idea to stand in front of the damn tank... and it's the same thing with an ADS when some idiot thinks that standing out in the open to get a clear shot is absolutely brilliant, and then complains when they die to missiles. The other thing I don't understand is why AV players think that proto tier weapons and equipment are needed to take down one vehicle. I find adv gear more than sufficient, and it only costs around 32,000 isk, compared to a 250,000 isk fitting.

Driving a LAV with remotes strapped to the front and ramming into a tank (a rather large target) requires no skill whatsoever, if you're a decent player that is...

Also, kamikazi dropships ramming into other dropships requires no skill, nor investment, which is the exact opposite of what a balanced and invested game suggests. The current damage that dropships suffer from colliding into structures/vehicles is ridiculous, and should toned down to the point where it's simply not viable, but still inflicts damage on a scale that makes the process utterly worthless.

If I wanted everything in this game to be cheap, then I'd have proxies detonate not only by vehicles, but infantry as well, and be free of all concerns of an actual fight.

It just surprises me how many people simply don't want a fight, or a challenge at that, in this game, or any game for that matter. The fact is that when people are given a simple and exploitable tactic to use, they will abuse it to no end, and not give a damn about the consequence that arises from it.

It is not.

It is about nothing more than sticking REs somewhere they won't get shot (I mean really, this should be obvious), driving somewhere you can see the tank, hitting nitrous and exploding.

I tried it about ten-fifteen times, and I was exploded by infantry twice. My ram failed once.

It is really not hard to JLAV, and you suggesting they are is ridiculous.


And I have at no point suggested JLAVs are 'game-breaking'. Don't you be putting words in my mouth.
At every point I have stated they are a BS, no-skill tactic and they should be removed.







People defended SLs from outside render distance too.



EDIT: so would you be okay with me having a BPO suit that suicide/insta kills on contact, is faster than a scout and tanky enough to survive more than two seconds' DPS?

I'll just go running into heavies all day erry day for luls. 1KDR and infinite ISK destroyed/zero lost seems pretty legit, right?

Why is it that you arrogantly assume that I myself have not partaken in this stupid act of suicide? Also, there is a difference between 'clean and fair' and following the rules of which this game was based on... investment... not exploitation, but CCP always leave so many holes in their work that questions their intelligence...

Oh the irony.