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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2967
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Posted - 2014.07.02 14:26:00 -
[1] - Quote
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B42cvyl4BvAfUDcwTFYxZnFZVHc&usp=drive_web
Above is a graph.
This graph shows the dire straits the rifles are in, each line represents one of the rifles by comparison of it's DPs vs Range.
As you can see, there is little to no order when you look at them.
1) The Burst Blaster Rifle has the lowest DPS and the lowest Range, it is officially the worst rifle, period.
2) The Combat Rifle is officially the worst Assault Variant Rifle
3) The Tactical Rifles have the highest possible DPS, however it is worth noting that these DPS's are the absolute Maximum and are not necessarily achievable.
4) The Rail Rifles has excessively high range, yet they still have highly competitive DPS
This information was soucrced from the following locations
1) The Ranges were sourced from the 1.7 dev blog about rifles
to my knowledge these ranges are still valid.
2) The DPS values are sourced from protofits.com
So there are two ways the rifles can be balanced.
We start by creating 6 finite ranges.
Close Quarters
< 20m
Short Range
20m - 40m
Short - Medium Range
40m - 60m
Medium - Long Range
60m - 80m
Long Range
80m - 100m
Extreme Range
> 100m
1) Each Variant has a preferred Range
Assault Rifles : Short Range
Burst Rifles : Short - Medium Range
Tactical Rifles : Medium - Long Range
Breach Rifles : Long Range
In each variant the Gallante has the Highest DPS and the Lowest Range, while the Caldari have the longest range but lowest DPS. Make both DPS and Range step uniformly between each rifle.
2) Each Race has a preferred Range
Gallante: Short Range
Minmatar : Short - Medium Range
Amarr : Medium - Long Range
Caldari : Long Range
In each case, the Assault Variant has the lowest range but highest DPS, while the breach has the longest range but lowest DPS. Make both DPS and Range step uniformly between each rifle.
Personally I am in preference of option 1, because this allows the difference between the races to be more prominent in each variant.
My suit's a bit rusty, but that could just as easily be me!
Monkey Mac - Swinging from the Rooftops Forum Warrior Lvl2
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
2328
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Posted - 2014.07.02 14:57:00 -
[2] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:
The Combat Rifle is officially the worst Assault Variant Rifle
LMAO
Shoot scout with yes...
- Ripley Riley
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2968
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Posted - 2014.07.02 15:27:00 -
[3] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:
The Combat Rifle is officially the worst Assault Variant Rifle
Officially, huh? So many people using a bad weapon doing so well. Thank goodness they aren't using a good weapon.
Well it has the second lowest Assault Rifle DPS and a grand total of 6m extra range over the gallante.
-33 DPS +6m Range
-17 DPS +6m Range (including Damage Profile)
while on the other hand
ARR
-50 DPS +30m Range
AScR
-33 DPS +12m Range
Literally the only thing the Assault Combat Rifle has going for it is a broken damage profile.
Which as you will probably realize is omitted from the graph.
My suit's a bit rusty, but that could just as easily be me!
Monkey Mac - Swinging from the Rooftops Forum Warrior Lvl2
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2968
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Posted - 2014.07.02 15:28:00 -
[4] - Quote
Unbalanced:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oQQ9DSTVq-tvOhZDXICz63PmZcHcvJqntya_gTri-50/edit?usp=sharing
Balanced:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OYGYch9cUVaM9jX06BTUC9pc5LY8w6wrtQHjMKn6z5w/edit?usp=sharing
My suit's a bit rusty, but that could just as easily be me!
Monkey Mac - Swinging from the Rooftops Forum Warrior Lvl2
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
597
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Posted - 2014.07.02 16:22:00 -
[5] - Quote
I agree that your option 1 is the better solution, and I would be behind this fix wholeheartedly. |
Paran Tadec
The Last of DusT.
General Tso's Alliance
2145
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 19:03:00 -
[6] - Quote
Stop trying to make sense. Nothing makes sense here. You're being unreasonable.
............
Bittervet Proficiency V
thanks logibro!
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Baal Omniscient
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
1879
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Posted - 2014.07.02 19:12:00 -
[7] - Quote
Signed.
PSN ID: AlbelNox2569
Cross Atu for CPM1
Winmatar Assault & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0
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Zindorak
CaUsE-4-CoNcErN
35
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Posted - 2014.07.02 21:02:00 -
[8] - Quote
This is genius! Im in favor for option one |
Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2973
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Posted - 2014.07.02 21:54:00 -
[9] - Quote
Please let this information be spread! More people understand just what a calamity the rifles are in.
It's because of this that we cam even begin to balance anything else.
My suit's a bit rusty, but that could just as easily be me!
Monkey Mac - Swinging from the Rooftops Forum Warrior Lvl2
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Baal Omniscient
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
1882
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Posted - 2014.07.02 22:09:00 -
[10] - Quote
Also, point: In order to keep overall balance, the HMG will need to be adjusted along with the rifles.
If these changes were to be put into effect, the HMG range needs to be dropped to "close" status. HMG's dispersion is not enough to reduce it's effectiveness at "short" range. Assault variant rifles should be able to out DPS an HMG at the edge of it's optimal, and it can't do that when after 1 second of firing the HMG's spread has shrunk enough to hit you with almost every bullet. That, or instead of getting a tighter spread the longer it fires, it should get wider the more you shoot (as any person thinking about it logically would have made it from the start) making it less effective at range unless you fire in bursts. Also, if this happens, the time it takes for the circular crosshairs to change from full size to normal size should be around 2 seconds and the crosshair should start at about half it's current size to allow for expansion.
PSN ID: AlbelNox2569
Cross Atu for CPM1
Winmatar Assault & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2975
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Posted - 2014.07.02 22:28:00 -
[11] - Quote
Baal Omniscient wrote:Also, point: In order to keep overall balance, the HMG will need to be adjusted along with the rifles.
If these changes were to be put into effect, the HMG range needs to be dropped to "close" status. HMG's dispersion is not enough to reduce it's effectiveness at "short" range. Assault variant rifles should be able to out DPS an HMG at the edge of it's optimal, and it can't do that when after 1 second of firing the HMG's spread has shrunk enough to hit you with almost every bullet. That, or instead of getting a tighter spread the longer it fires, it should get wider the more you shoot (as any person thinking about it logically would have made it from the start) making it less effective at range unless you fire in bursts. Also, if this happens, the time it takes for the circular crosshairs to change from full size to normal size should be around 2 seconds and the crosshair should start at about half it's current size to allow for expansion.
Yes the HMG would indeed also need to re balanced.
In the graphs I have shown the ABR ends up with a slight range nerf, so yeah the HMG would need a 'nerf' as well.
But by the time they are completly balanced they will, all still feel right!
My suit's a bit rusty, but that could just as easily be me!
Monkey Mac - Swinging from the Rooftops Forum Warrior Lvl2
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Dalton Smithe
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
100
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Posted - 2014.07.02 22:34:00 -
[12] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:
The Combat Rifle is officially the worst Assault Variant Rifle
Officially, huh? So many people using a bad weapon doing so well. Thank goodness they aren't using a good weapon. Well it has the second lowest Assault Rifle DPS and a grand total of 6m extra range over the gallante. -33 DPS +6m Range -17 DPS +6m Range (including Damage Profile) while on the other hand ARR -50 DPS +30m Range AScR -33 DPS +12m Range Literally the only thing the Assault Combat Rifle has going for it is a broken damage profile. Which as you will probably realize is omitted from the graph.
You are forgetting other factors that reduce a weapons effectiveness. Simply putting a range/dps model up there an calling weapons good or bad is not the way to go. Accuracy, falloff, everything needs to be taken into account.... |
Bojo The Mighty
Spaceman Drug Cartel-Uno
3947
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 22:39:00 -
[13] - Quote
I'm sick of rifle changes
Let's shift focus off rifles for a while and let other toys get recognition
BTW AR's are fine now especially TAR and BuAR and BrAR
BrAR could use a RoF tune down, damage tune up if anything.
Smell the burning flesh. Taste the tangy sulfur air. Volcano Season - Moltar's Haiku : SGC2C
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2975
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Posted - 2014.07.02 23:01:00 -
[14] - Quote
Dalton Smithe wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:
The Combat Rifle is officially the worst Assault Variant Rifle
Officially, huh? So many people using a bad weapon doing so well. Thank goodness they aren't using a good weapon. Well it has the second lowest Assault Rifle DPS and a grand total of 6m extra range over the gallante. -33 DPS +6m Range -17 DPS +6m Range (including Damage Profile) while on the other hand ARR -50 DPS +30m Range AScR -33 DPS +12m Range Literally the only thing the Assault Combat Rifle has going for it is a broken damage profile. Which as you will probably realize is omitted from the graph. You are forgetting other factors that reduce a weapons effectiveness. Simply putting a range/dps model up there an calling weapons good or bad is not the way to go. Accuracy, falloff, everything needs to be taken into account....
As you will see in the graph (assuming falloff is linear), this is taken care of.
The Assault Rifles still out DPS the Breach Rifles for a decent amount of time.
In the Balanced version (assuming projectile profile is changed to match explosive) The minmatar and Amarr are ALWAYS the best race per variant when taking on Armour or Shield only tanked suits respectively.
While the gallante and caldari work best when the ratio of tank is closer to 50%
Burst weapons only start outclassing assaults when used upon the correct tank type and a decent profiency level.
Since the Difference in range and DPS between races is negligible, popularity is swayed less by which has the best DPS/pm value and which one suits the player best.
Furthermore it suits the lore better without turning it into spreadsheets and auto-fire
My suit's a bit rusty, but that could just as easily be me!
Monkey Mac - Swinging from the Rooftops Forum Warrior Lvl2
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Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
Psychotic Alliance
1417
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 23:32:00 -
[15] - Quote
Option 1.
Calmanndo user with nova knives: Because someone has to do it.
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2977
|
Posted - 2014.07.03 08:11:00 -
[16] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:Option 1.
Yeah most people are in preference to this, well at least those who agree anyway!
It just seems common sense, we will get stuck in the nerf/buff cycle until time immorium, or we end up with something closely resembling my balanced solution.
My suit's a bit rusty, but that could just as easily be me!
Monkey Mac - Swinging from the Rooftops Forum Warrior Lvl2
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Ralden Caster
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
61
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Posted - 2014.07.03 15:24:00 -
[17] - Quote
Baal Omniscient wrote:Also, point: In order to keep overall balance, the HMG will need to be adjusted along with the rifles.
If these changes were to be put into effect, the HMG range needs to be dropped to "close" status. HMG's dispersion is not enough to reduce it's effectiveness at "short" range. Assault variant rifles should be able to out DPS an HMG at the edge of it's optimal, and it can't do that when after 1 second of firing the HMG's spread has shrunk enough to hit you with almost every bullet. That, or instead of getting a tighter spread the longer it fires, it should get wider the more you shoot (as any person thinking about it logically would have made it from the start) making it less effective at range unless you fire in bursts. Also, if this happens, the time it takes for the circular crosshairs to change from full size to normal size should be around 2 seconds and the crosshair should start at about half it's current size to allow for expansion.
The HMG is supposed to be able to shred you. Heavies are the staple of defense and should require more effort to take down. If heavies could chase you down easily and jump heights higher than their kneecaps, then we could talk.
And so, the mercenaries rejoiced, but with the regret that some of the mighty had fallen.
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2979
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Posted - 2014.07.03 15:28:00 -
[18] - Quote
Ralden Caster wrote:Baal Omniscient wrote:Also, point: In order to keep overall balance, the HMG will need to be adjusted along with the rifles.
If these changes were to be put into effect, the HMG range needs to be dropped to "close" status. HMG's dispersion is not enough to reduce it's effectiveness at "short" range. Assault variant rifles should be able to out DPS an HMG at the edge of it's optimal, and it can't do that when after 1 second of firing the HMG's spread has shrunk enough to hit you with almost every bullet. That, or instead of getting a tighter spread the longer it fires, it should get wider the more you shoot (as any person thinking about it logically would have made it from the start) making it less effective at range unless you fire in bursts. Also, if this happens, the time it takes for the circular crosshairs to change from full size to normal size should be around 2 seconds and the crosshair should start at about half it's current size to allow for expansion. The HMG is supposed to be able to shred you. Heavies are the staple of defense and should require more effort to take down. If heavies could chase you down easily and jump heights higher than their kneecaps, then we could talk.
The HMG will still shred, it's just the AR will be capable of out ranging it.
My suit's a bit rusty, but that could just as easily be me!
Monkey Mac - Swinging from the Rooftops Forum Warrior Lvl2
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Vitharr Foebane
Terminal Courtesy
1552
|
Posted - 2014.07.03 15:57:00 -
[19] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Ralden Caster wrote:Baal Omniscient wrote:Also, point: In order to keep overall balance, the HMG will need to be adjusted along with the rifles.
If these changes were to be put into effect, the HMG range needs to be dropped to "close" status. HMG's dispersion is not enough to reduce it's effectiveness at "short" range. Assault variant rifles should be able to out DPS an HMG at the edge of it's optimal, and it can't do that when after 1 second of firing the HMG's spread has shrunk enough to hit you with almost every bullet. That, or instead of getting a tighter spread the longer it fires, it should get wider the more you shoot (as any person thinking about it logically would have made it from the start) making it less effective at range unless you fire in bursts. Also, if this happens, the time it takes for the circular crosshairs to change from full size to normal size should be around 2 seconds and the crosshair should start at about half it's current size to allow for expansion. The HMG is supposed to be able to shred you. Heavies are the staple of defense and should require more effort to take down. If heavies could chase you down easily and jump heights higher than their kneecaps, then we could talk. The HMG will still shred, it's just the AR will be capable of out ranging it.
It already out ranges it though...
Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV
I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2987
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Posted - 2014.07.03 19:02:00 -
[20] - Quote
Vitharr Foebane wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:Ralden Caster wrote:Baal Omniscient wrote:Also, point: In order to keep overall balance, the HMG will need to be adjusted along with the rifles.
If these changes were to be put into effect, the HMG range needs to be dropped to "close" status. HMG's dispersion is not enough to reduce it's effectiveness at "short" range. Assault variant rifles should be able to out DPS an HMG at the edge of it's optimal, and it can't do that when after 1 second of firing the HMG's spread has shrunk enough to hit you with almost every bullet. That, or instead of getting a tighter spread the longer it fires, it should get wider the more you shoot (as any person thinking about it logically would have made it from the start) making it less effective at range unless you fire in bursts. Also, if this happens, the time it takes for the circular crosshairs to change from full size to normal size should be around 2 seconds and the crosshair should start at about half it's current size to allow for expansion. The HMG is supposed to be able to shred you. Heavies are the staple of defense and should require more effort to take down. If heavies could chase you down easily and jump heights higher than their kneecaps, then we could talk. The HMG will still shred, it's just the AR will be capable of out ranging it. It already out ranges it though...
The you will notice no difference then, it will just be more refined!
My suit's a bit rusty, but that could just as easily be me!
Monkey Mac - Swinging from the Rooftops Forum Warrior Lvl2
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wiseguy12
Ancient Legion
36
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Posted - 2014.07.03 19:09:00 -
[21] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:I agree that your option 1 is the better solution, and I would be behind this fix wholeheartedly.
You're making no sense at all.
W.I.D.O.S. when in doubt orbital strike
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2995
|
Posted - 2014.07.03 23:32:00 -
[22] - Quote
wiseguy12 wrote:Kallas Hallytyr wrote:I agree that your option 1 is the better solution, and I would be behind this fix wholeheartedly. You're making no sense at all.
I presented 2 options
Option 1)
Rifles are grouped together by their variant, so all assault rifles have similar ranges and DPS, each variamt fills one role very well and the rest moderately.
Option 2)
Rifles are grouped together by their race, so all gallante rifles have similar ranges amd DPS, each race fills one role very well and the rest moderatly.
Option 1, is the more agreeable as it means that it's not just a simple as a slider of Range vs DPS.
The damage profiles make a much larger impact, since range and DPS are already set, a greater license with the weapons attributes (such as ROF, Damage per Shot, Magazine Size(Time to Empty) Reload Time,) allows each race to have distinctive characteristics about their weaponry.
I.e
Gallante
Moderate ROF, Moderate Damage per Shot, Moderate Magazine Size but Long TTE, Long Reload
Minmatar
High ROF, Low Damage per Shot, Large Magazine Size but Short TTE, Short Reload
Amarr
Moderate ROF, High Damage per Shot, Large Magazine Size but Short TTE (due to overheat mechanic), Moderate Reload
Caldari
Low ROF, High Damage per Shot, Small Magazine Size but Moderate TTE, Short Reload (due to charge mechanic)
My suit's a bit rusty, but that could just as easily be me!
Monkey Mac - Swinging from the Rooftops Forum Warrior Lvl2
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Baal Omniscient
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
1893
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 00:21:00 -
[23] - Quote
Vitharr Foebane wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:Ralden Caster wrote:Baal Omniscient wrote:Also, point: In order to keep overall balance, the HMG will need to be adjusted along with the rifles.
If these changes were to be put into effect, the HMG range needs to be dropped to "close" status. HMG's dispersion is not enough to reduce it's effectiveness at "short" range. Assault variant rifles should be able to out DPS an HMG at the edge of it's optimal, and it can't do that when after 1 second of firing the HMG's spread has shrunk enough to hit you with almost every bullet. That, or instead of getting a tighter spread the longer it fires, it should get wider the more you shoot (as any person thinking about it logically would have made it from the start) making it less effective at range unless you fire in bursts. Also, if this happens, the time it takes for the circular crosshairs to change from full size to normal size should be around 2 seconds and the crosshair should start at about half it's current size to allow for expansion. The HMG is supposed to be able to shred you. Heavies are the staple of defense and should require more effort to take down. If heavies could chase you down easily and jump heights higher than their kneecaps, then we could talk. The HMG will still shred, it's just the AR will be capable of out ranging it. It already out ranges it though...
With current ranges, yes barely. (by around 1-5m, I forget exactly since the recent range drop on the AR)
However, with the changes MAC is proposing the AR would no longer out range the current HMG, meaning it's range would either need to be dropped or have it's spread/heat stats flipped so that spraying longer gets LESS accurate instead of MORE accurate.
PSN ID: AlbelNox2569
Cross Atu for CPM1
Winmatar Assault & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
3506
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Posted - 2014.07.04 06:47:00 -
[24] - Quote
Thanks for the feedback, but we are not touching Rifles in the short term. Our data and forums are in agreement that rifles have never been as balanced as they are currently. If that changes, we will come to the forums for feedback. Right now, there are many things we want to tweak and fix that have higher priority.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2999
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Posted - 2014.07.04 10:47:00 -
[25] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Thanks for the feedback, but we are not touching Rifles in the short term. Our data and forums are in agreement that rifles have never been as balanced as they are currently. If that changes, we will come to the forums for feedback. Right now, there are many things we want to tweak and fix that have higher priority.
Cool, no worries.
While the Rifles are indeed more balanced than ever, I was concerned about the Rifles slowly merging into very similar weapons.
'Feel' wise anyway, especially with the most recent changes, to the AR it feels incredibly similar to Assault Combat Rifle.
Please however feel free to take a copy for archiving or legion, I can upload the spreadsheet document used to create these upon request.
My suit's a bit rusty, but that could just as easily be me!
Monkey Mac - Swinging from the Rooftops Forum Warrior Lvl2
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Temias Mercurial
Knights Of Ender
RISE of LEGION
107
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Posted - 2014.07.05 01:03:00 -
[26] - Quote
I still think that the rail rifle should have an effect similar to the laser rifle's close up reduced damage, as it's suppose to be a long range weapon, but is still ludicrously good at CQC due to it's damage output. |
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
3524
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Posted - 2014.07.05 04:16:00 -
[27] - Quote
Temias Mercurial wrote:I still think that the rail rifle should have an effect similar to the laser rifle's close up reduced damage, as it's suppose to be a long range weapon, but is still ludicrously good at CQC due to it's damage output.
That's exactly what I wrote in my notes not 2 hours ago.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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jaksol exendent
Red and Silver Hand
Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2014.07.05 05:17:00 -
[28] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Thanks for the feedback, but we are not touching Rifles in the short term. Our data and forums are in agreement that rifles have never been as balanced as they are currently. If that changes, we will come to the forums for feedback. Right now, there are many things we want to tweak and fix that have higher priority.
HACK "chromosome" HACK |
MINA Longstrike
965
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Posted - 2014.07.05 05:18:00 -
[29] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Temias Mercurial wrote:I still think that the rail rifle should have an effect similar to the laser rifle's close up reduced damage, as it's suppose to be a long range weapon, but is still ludicrously good at CQC due to it's damage output. That's exactly what I wrote in my notes not 2 hours ago.
I'm okay with rails being useable at close range, I'm not okay with them still being really good at 100m, people tend to migrate to the longest range weapons unless they have significant cqc drawbacks. If you're going to tweak rails in this manner it probably needs to be done to CRs too, scrs are fine with overheat
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
403
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Posted - 2014.07.05 09:24:00 -
[30] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Temias Mercurial wrote:I still think that the rail rifle should have an effect similar to the laser rifle's close up reduced damage, as it's suppose to be a long range weapon, but is still ludicrously good at CQC due to it's damage output. That's exactly what I wrote in my notes not 2 hours ago.
why does everyone compare the rail rifle to the laser rifle?
the laser rifle is a support weapon. the rail rifle is a primary weapon.
the sniper rifle is a support weapon. its long range. if i ran around with a tactical sniper rifle and started popping dudes under 100m would people cry and ask that its bullets magically do less damage at closer ranges?
someone explain to me how a chunk of solid matter fire with with as much kinetic energy and velocity as needed to reach the range as the rail rifle, wouldnt punch straight through anyone at close range.
tell me how, a bullet does less damage close up than it does at range? can anyone sure me a weapon, any weapon at all that fires a projectile of any sort that does less damage up close and more damage at range?
we're talking about a bullet gaining kinetic energy while in flight lol |
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SponkSponkSponk
The Southern Legion
Final Resolution.
905
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Posted - 2014.07.05 10:46:00 -
[31] - Quote
Why not just make the same fix the TAC AR got? Absurd hip fire spread.
Dust/Eve transfers
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
11258
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Posted - 2014.07.05 16:11:00 -
[32] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Temias Mercurial wrote:I still think that the rail rifle should have an effect similar to the laser rifle's close up reduced damage, as it's suppose to be a long range weapon, but is still ludicrously good at CQC due to it's damage output. That's exactly what I wrote in my notes not 2 hours ago.
Please don't, I always found it to be such a counter-intuitive mechanic on the laser rifle, don't do it to the rail rifle. If changes are needed, I would suggest looking at DPS.
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
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Temias Mercurial
Knights Of Ender
RISE of LEGION
108
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Posted - 2014.07.05 16:46:00 -
[33] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Temias Mercurial wrote:I still think that the rail rifle should have an effect similar to the laser rifle's close up reduced damage, as it's suppose to be a long range weapon, but is still ludicrously good at CQC due to it's damage output. That's exactly what I wrote in my notes not 2 hours ago. Please don't, I always found it to be such a counter-intuitive mechanic on the laser rifle, don't do it to the rail rifle. If changes are needed, I would suggest looking at DPS.
DPS has been changed again and again... and the laser rifle is amazing when used correctly. There are no issues with it. It would encourage new tactics involving this new mechanic for the rail rifle. We could give it a small hipfire spread, or we could give it a ridiculously large spread, but neither really works or changes anything when the rail rifle already does hefty damage. This mechanic actually creates a boundary of appropriate weapons in their ranges. Close Range Combat: Blaster and Projectile. Long Range Combat: Laser and Rail. Currently, the rail rifle is simply too good at... everything, to where it fits in both categories. |
Zindorak
CaUsE-4-CoNcErN
48
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Posted - 2014.07.05 17:38:00 -
[34] - Quote
RR: Nerf this things damage and range and ill be happy
CR: keep this thing the same. IDK why people are complaining about it
ScR: Perfectly fine, maybe decrease overheat build up by a bit.
LR: Nerf this things feedback damage, its just too much and increase the damage on the ADV and PRO so its not the similar to the STD LR. For example STD: 17.00HP ADV: 20.00 or 23.00 and PRO: 23.00 or 26.00. This thing needs to be the king of range (other than the Sniper) games. Maybe some tweaks to the scope of LR and ScR
AR: All good due to the Bravo buff
This would be a pretty good change to the Rifles IMO |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
405
|
Posted - 2014.07.05 18:40:00 -
[35] - Quote
Zindorak wrote:RR: Nerf this things damage and range and ill be happy CR: keep this thing the same. IDK why people are complaining about it ScR: Perfectly fine, maybe decrease overheat build up by a bit. LR: Nerf this things feedback damage, its just too much and increase the damage on the ADV and PRO so its not the similar to the STD LR. For example STD: 17.00HP ADV: 20.00 or 23.00 and PRO: 23.00 or 26.00. This thing needs to be the king of range (other than the Sniper) games. Maybe some tweaks to the scope of LR and ScR AR: All good due to the Bravo buff This would be a pretty good change to the Rifles IMO
you sound like an armor tanker |
Kratek Heshan
United Colonial Empire Army
Freek Alliance
69
|
Posted - 2014.07.05 20:06:00 -
[36] - Quote
come on WTF don't complain about everything people use to enjoy combat rifle when they nurf the **** out of it now people enjoy the rail rifle now all gonna complain come on guys learn to use cover and avoid bullets thats what you need to do not complain every time you get killed by a gun that u don't use or like |
Temias Mercurial
Knights Of Ender
RISE of LEGION
108
|
Posted - 2014.07.05 20:42:00 -
[37] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Temias Mercurial wrote:I still think that the rail rifle should have an effect similar to the laser rifle's close up reduced damage, as it's suppose to be a long range weapon, but is still ludicrously good at CQC due to it's damage output. That's exactly what I wrote in my notes not 2 hours ago. why does everyone compare the rail rifle to the laser rifle? the laser rifle is a support weapon. the rail rifle is a primary weapon. the sniper rifle is a support weapon. its long range. if i ran around with a tactical sniper rifle and started popping dudes under 100m would people cry and ask that its bullets magically do less damage at closer ranges? someone explain to me how a chunk of solid matter fire with with as much kinetic energy and velocity as needed to reach the range as the rail rifle, wouldnt punch straight through anyone at close range. tell me how, a bullet does less damage close up than it does at range? can anyone sure me a weapon, any weapon at all that fires a projectile of any sort that does less damage up close and more damage at range? we're talking about a bullet gaining kinetic energy while in flight lol EDIT: making the RR less effective up close remove the only primary weapon the caldari have from general use. what other light weapon would we have for use at under 50m? the amarr have the Scr. you guys plan on giving us some other weapon? buffing the magsec? what? if you want to make the RR less effective at closer ranges, then i should be hearing some ideas about making it even more effective at longer ranges. 100m optimal range? 120, 130 effective range? do we want to go there? 2nd EDIT: flip the RR range profile. effective range 0-25m optimal range 26-100m and decrease the charge up time on the magsec to .25 and .20 for the bolt pistol
As someone who has Proto Amarr Assault and Viziam Laser Rifle... the laser is not a support weapon. I melt heavies with the damn thing  . The reason why people compare the two weapons is because they have the greatest range of rifles (other than the sniper rifle, which is not a combat weapon). The Laser is balanced as it has to deal damage over time, and wastes ammunition when doing so, and has a hefty amount of feadback damage when it overheats. The rail rifle doesn't have a penalty for using it when it does such stupendous damage at any range.
To explain why the rail rifle does more damage over range than up close: As the projectile travels a greater distance, it gains more kinetic force and velocity that is not achieved when first fired (for whatever reason scientifically); however, it does eventually lose force over a certain distance (the effective to absolute range). |
Zindorak
CaUsE-4-CoNcErN
49
|
Posted - 2014.07.05 21:04:00 -
[38] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:Zindorak wrote:RR: Nerf this things damage and range and ill be happy CR: keep this thing the same. IDK why people are complaining about it ScR: Perfectly fine, maybe decrease overheat build up by a bit. LR: Nerf this things feedback damage, its just too much and increase the damage on the ADV and PRO so its not the similar to the STD LR. For example STD: 17.00HP ADV: 20.00 or 23.00 and PRO: 23.00 or 26.00. This thing needs to be the king of range (other than the Sniper) games. Maybe some tweaks to the scope of LR and ScR AR: All good due to the Bravo buff This would be a pretty good change to the Rifles IMO you sound like an armor tanker
Yea cuz shields are inferior |
jerrmy12 kahoalii
New Age Empire.
General Tso's Alliance
1603
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 02:20:00 -
[39] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Temias Mercurial wrote:I still think that the rail rifle should have an effect similar to the laser rifle's close up reduced damage, as it's suppose to be a long range weapon, but is still ludicrously good at CQC due to it's damage output. That's exactly what I wrote in my notes not 2 hours ago.
Needs to be a small penalty otherwise it is useless.
Closed beta vet.
If bo burnham was on my little pony: friendship is magic
|
General12912
Gallente Marine Corps
205
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 04:13:00 -
[40] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Thanks for the feedback, but we are not touching Rifles in the short term. Our data and forums are in agreement that rifles have never been as balanced as they are currently. If that changes, we will come to the forums for feedback. Right now, there are many things we want to tweak and fix that have higher priority.
then my feelings are true. and the rifles are extremely balanced. this just confirms what ive been trying to tell people all along.
Every suit Gk.0 <3
Gallente Federation Patriot
|
|
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Aeladon Leiko
KNIGHTZ OF THE ROUND
87
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 06:42:00 -
[41] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Temias Mercurial wrote:I still think that the rail rifle should have an effect similar to the laser rifle's close up reduced damage, as it's suppose to be a long range weapon, but is still ludicrously good at CQC due to it's damage output. That's exactly what I wrote in my notes not 2 hours ago.
i'd also like to note that the laser rifle is a bit too good at close range. dps is a bit high too - esp vs armor. i can't tell u how many times my pro amarr sentinel with almost 1200 armor has been shredded by a laser rifle.
combat rifle dps output is far too high still and capable of firing burst far too quickly. i've no way to test this myself but i've seen what looks like someone with a modded controller or an impressively fast finger dump an entire mag at ludicrous speed.
i'd also like to point out that mouse/keyboard users get a decided advantage. i'll probably anger a lot of people by this but the whole idea should be scrubbed. sorry (no i'm not). if i wanted to sit at my pc and mouse keyboard it up i would... i play console to sit on my lazy behind on the couch snuggled up under a blanket with my fiance's head on my shoulder while im getting shot to pieces. turn speed. aim precision. the ease of macroing/modding...take ur pick. they are all legit reasons mouse/kb should not be a part of a console game.
just these few things would make a huge difference in ttk.
and while i'm on the subject of ttk...it is still far too short. i'm sure this will be seen as extreme but i believe that ttk for a heavy is ok but only if it wasn't a heavy... stick with me for a sec. give light suits have ttk of a heavy. increase the rest of the suits % wise to match with the difference in suits relative to where they are now just with more ehp
oh and last thing.. i can pull out a 7.9k suit and do reasonably well. lets put a number on it... lets say 15-6. i pull out proto and go... 22-5. only problem is proto suit costs 200k. its cost is not relative to its benefit.
thanks for listening |
Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1193
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 07:07:00 -
[42] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Temias Mercurial wrote:I still think that the rail rifle should have an effect similar to the laser rifle's close up reduced damage, as it's suppose to be a long range weapon, but is still ludicrously good at CQC due to it's damage output. That's exactly what I wrote in my notes not 2 hours ago. Please don't, I always found it to be such a counter-intuitive mechanic on the laser rifle, don't do it to the rail rifle. If changes are needed, I would suggest looking at DPS.
Kage...I partially agree.
It is a counter-intuitive mechanic, no question with that.
My concern is that if you lower the DPS even further (it's already the lowest of the standard rifles) it quickly gets unable to kill at range either.
The path is very narrow to make the RR acceptable to those who get killed by it often and making it pretty useless.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
|
Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1193
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 07:49:00 -
[43] - Quote
Ok...rail rifles. Again.
This is a tough discussion and I admittedly come at it from pretty dedicated RR user perspective. I am, however, interested everyone enjoying a balanced game.
Let's a take a quick look at the RR from the perspective of someone that uses it or the assault variant fairly exclusively.
1) Lowest DPS of racial rifles. That's pretty legit when compared to the range...no major issues with that. That said, with the DPS at this point it's pretty close to not being useful at longer rangers as its very easy to duck out of the way or get behind cover before taking terminal damage.
2) Charge time. This is oft argued back and forth with little positive headway. Many say the charge time is so negligible that it doesn't matter, people flutter the trigger, or pre-fire takes care of everything. My general response is that if it's such non-factor then remove it from the weapon or you could have a similar charge time penalty that you get on rail turrets when you "game" the spool time. I would also point out that this is the only major weapon drawback that doesn't have an SP sink or Racial Role bonus to offset it.
3) Hip fire vs ADS. One thing that hasn't been touched yet is the hip fire; this might help quite a bit if the hip fire was toned done noticeable. You can just about weave between shots with the low RoF and a cut in hip fire accuracy might be just the thing in order.
4) Mag size and reload time. These really are secondary factors but not something to overlook either. Lowest reload time and mag capacity for racial LW but you can offset these combat efficiency gaps with the weapons skill SP sinks. Again...shortcoming that can be mitigated with SP which is a basic positive theme.
5) Comparison to Laser Rifle. The Laser Rifle isn't counted as a basic racial rifle as far as I can tell so the direct comparisons may be a bit off. The similar range profiles is what generally draw the comparisons and conceptually the increasing damage overtime with a laser works very well. I would also concur with one of the earlier posters that "you can melt heavies" as I've witnessed some good LR users do just that. There is no real logical way to adjust a kinetic penetrator's damage profile to having less impact closer than it does at longer range and frankly there are other things to tweak outside of that.
6) Caldari Weapons kit bag. This kinda goes at the heart of it to me...if you make the RR too niche (and my opinion is that it can very easily drift that way) is that you leave a racial line without any kind of general purpose weapon. The short answer its that it doesn't make sense to do that without some built in off-set. Lot's of folks rightly point out that the Cal method relies on dealing damage at range...no issue with that; the thing people forget is to take an objective in game or conceptually from a lore stand point you still have to close the tactical gap and you shouldn't be too gimped. A CalLogi actually trying to run a support set up you can quickly be at a level of disadvantage that is a bit much.
My proposal to that is to actually make the ARR (or perhaps the MagSec) the viable option in mid-range combat and keep relevance in shorter combat ranges. For the ARR noticably cut the range down, keep RoF, and consider cutting the charge time a bit. I recommend changing the Operation skill to reducing the spool time and dropping the recoil reduction.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
|
Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3026
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 11:39:00 -
[44] - Quote
Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:Ok...rail rifles. Again.
This is a tough discussion and I admittedly come at it from pretty dedicated RR user perspective. I am, however, interested everyone enjoying a balanced game.
Let's a take a quick look at the RR from the perspective of someone that uses it or the assault variant fairly exclusively.
1) Lowest DPS of racial rifles. That's pretty legit when compared to the range...no major issues with that. That said, with the DPS at this point it's pretty close to not being useful at longer rangers as its very easy to duck out of the way or get behind cover before taking terminal damage.
2) Charge time. This is oft argued back and forth with little positive headway. Many say the charge time is so negligible that it doesn't matter, people flutter the trigger, or pre-fire takes care of everything. My general response is that if it's such non-factor then remove it from the weapon or you could have a similar charge time penalty that you get on rail turrets when you "game" the spool time. I would also point out that this is the only major weapon drawback that doesn't have an SP sink or Racial Role bonus to offset it.
3) Hip fire vs ADS. One thing that hasn't been touched yet is the hip fire; this might help quite a bit if the hip fire was toned done noticeable. You can just about weave between shots with the low RoF and a cut in hip fire accuracy might be just the thing in order.
4) Mag size and reload time. These really are secondary factors but not something to overlook either. Lowest reload time and mag capacity for racial LW but you can offset these combat efficiency gaps with the weapons skill SP sinks. Again...shortcoming that can be mitigated with SP which is a basic positive theme.
5) Comparison to Laser Rifle. The Laser Rifle isn't counted as a basic racial rifle as far as I can tell so the direct comparisons may be a bit off. The similar range profiles is what generally draw the comparisons and conceptually the increasing damage overtime with a laser works very well. I would also concur with one of the earlier posters that "you can melt heavies" as I've witnessed some good LR users do just that. There is no real logical way to adjust a kinetic penetrator's damage profile to having less impact closer than it does at longer range and frankly there are other things to tweak outside of that.
6) Caldari Weapons kit bag. This kinda goes at the heart of it to me...if you make the RR too niche (and my opinion is that it can very easily drift that way) is that you leave a racial line without any kind of general purpose weapon. The short answer its that it doesn't make sense to do that without some built in off-set. Lot's of folks rightly point out that the Cal method relies on dealing damage at range...no issue with that; the thing people forget is to take an objective in game or conceptually from a lore stand point you still have to close the tactical gap and you shouldn't be too gimped. A CalLogi actually trying to run a support set up you can quickly be at a level of disadvantage that is a bit much.
My proposal to that is to actually make the ARR (or perhaps the MagSec) the viable option in mid-range combat and keep relevance in shorter combat ranges. For the ARR noticably cut the range down, keep RoF, and consider cutting the charge time a bit. I recommend changing the Operation skill to reducing the spool time and dropping the recoil reduction.
The charge time is considered negligible because of
1) The already short time of RR reload
2) The Caldari Assault Bonus
Whe these stack the reload which often comprises other weapons, does not comprimise the RR, instead the charge time does.
Ot requires skill to when and where to stop amd start firing, but in short the RR works best when fired continously.
You will notice in my graph the caldari will most definitely have general purpose weapons. The DPS of the Breach RR is only mildly lower than its current (but it gets a range increase) it out DPS's the Assault Rifles at about 50m , excluding changes to accuracy, but it also has a shorter range version in the ARR.
This is the problem with the current state of rifles they only 'feel' balanced because we only use a few select rifles.
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
|
manboar thunder fist
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
58
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 12:29:00 -
[45] - Quote
your graph does not account for weapon drawbacks. for example the scr overheats and the ar doesnt. this means that DPS over 10 seconds will be vastly different. The tactical Scrambler rifle is a high alpha burst weapon capable of heavy accurate fire for 2-3 seconds before it overheats, causing a significant movement penalty and locking. This means that nerfing it's DPS is unviable as it is only a "paper" figure. The gun can not be fired at maximum DPS unless you tap fast enough, a feat in itself. Therefore the graph does not accurately represent the scrambler rifle.
NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES
nerf life
|
Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3026
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 12:45:00 -
[46] - Quote
manboar thunder fist wrote:your graph does not account for weapon drawbacks. for example the scr overheats and the ar doesnt. this means that DPS over 10 seconds will be vastly different. The tactical Scrambler rifle is a high alpha burst weapon capable of heavy accurate fire for 2-3 seconds before it overheats, causing a significant movement penalty and locking. This means that nerfing it's DPS is unviable as it is only a "paper" figure. The gun can not be fired at maximum DPS unless you tap fast enough, a feat in itself. Therefore the graph does not accurately represent the scrambler rifle.
The Scrambler Rifle overheat is an already broken mechanic.
In the case of the Assault it is pointless.
In terms of the Tactical, it simply allows the user to beat the opponent in any choice they prefer.
You can Burst and Achieve massive amounts of DPS, that kills your opponemts in a rather unfair amount of time.
Or you can simply maintain the overheat and get them when they reload.
The overheat function should only allow for one of these techniques, not both in the same rifle.
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
|
manboar thunder fist
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
58
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 12:49:00 -
[47] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:manboar thunder fist wrote:your graph does not account for weapon drawbacks. for example the scr overheats and the ar doesnt. this means that DPS over 10 seconds will be vastly different. The tactical Scrambler rifle is a high alpha burst weapon capable of heavy accurate fire for 2-3 seconds before it overheats, causing a significant movement penalty and locking. This means that nerfing it's DPS is unviable as it is only a "paper" figure. The gun can not be fired at maximum DPS unless you tap fast enough, a feat in itself. Therefore the graph does not accurately represent the scrambler rifle. The Scrambler Rifle overheat is an already broken mechanic. In the case of the Assault it is pointless. In terms of the Tactical, it simply allows the user to beat the opponent in any choice they prefer. You can Burst and Achieve massive amounts of DPS, that kills your opponemts in a rather unfair amount of time. Or you can simply maintain the overheat and get them when they reload. The overheat function should only allow for one of these techniques, not both in the same rifle.
LOL
"You can burst and kill them, crippling yourself and god forbid they are armour tanking"
is someone forgetting the 20% reduction to armour? Oh yes, lets see... melt shields, die on armour, hmmm
"You can maintain the overheat"
Right, because it's not like they're shooting at us ... RiiiIIiight? I'll just do 58 dmg per shot to armour, at a slower rate than a rail rifle, until they die eventually, who cares about me? i'm invincible.
Please think game not paper
NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES
nerf life
|
Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3026
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 12:56:00 -
[48] - Quote
manboar thunder fist wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:manboar thunder fist wrote:your graph does not account for weapon drawbacks. for example the scr overheats and the ar doesnt. this means that DPS over 10 seconds will be vastly different. The tactical Scrambler rifle is a high alpha burst weapon capable of heavy accurate fire for 2-3 seconds before it overheats, causing a significant movement penalty and locking. This means that nerfing it's DPS is unviable as it is only a "paper" figure. The gun can not be fired at maximum DPS unless you tap fast enough, a feat in itself. Therefore the graph does not accurately represent the scrambler rifle. The Scrambler Rifle overheat is an already broken mechanic. In the case of the Assault it is pointless. In terms of the Tactical, it simply allows the user to beat the opponent in any choice they prefer. You can Burst and Achieve massive amounts of DPS, that kills your opponemts in a rather unfair amount of time. Or you can simply maintain the overheat and get them when they reload. The overheat function should only allow for one of these techniques, not both in the same rifle. LOL "You can burst and kill them, crippling yourself and god forbid they are armour tanking" is someone forgetting the 20% reduction to armour? Oh yes, lets see... melt shields, die on armour, hmmm "You can maintain the overheat" Right, because it's not like they're shooting at us ... RiiiIIiight? I'll just do 58 dmg per shot to armour, at a slower rate than a rail rifle, until they die eventually, who cares about me? i'm invincible. Please think game not paper
Yes, point still stands, it's broken.
It should either
1) Force the User to fire slightly slower and rely on out lasting the opponent.
(The Amarr way of doing things)
2) Achieve massive Burst that will seize if you fail
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
|
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
11263
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 13:23:00 -
[49] - Quote
Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Temias Mercurial wrote:I still think that the rail rifle should have an effect similar to the laser rifle's close up reduced damage, as it's suppose to be a long range weapon, but is still ludicrously good at CQC due to it's damage output. That's exactly what I wrote in my notes not 2 hours ago. Please don't, I always found it to be such a counter-intuitive mechanic on the laser rifle, don't do it to the rail rifle. If changes are needed, I would suggest looking at DPS. Kage...I partially agree. It is a counter-intuitive mechanic, no question with that. My concern is that if you lower the DPS even further (it's already the lowest of the standard rifles) it quickly gets unable to kill at range either. The path is very narrow to make the RR acceptable to those who get killed by it often and making it pretty useless.
I'm not even sure if the RR even needs a nerf at all, though if it does then I think something like more kick and spread while NOT aiming down sight could also be an alternative.
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
|
Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1195
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 13:43:00 -
[50] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Temias Mercurial wrote:I still think that the rail rifle should have an effect similar to the laser rifle's close up reduced damage, as it's suppose to be a long range weapon, but is still ludicrously good at CQC due to it's damage output. That's exactly what I wrote in my notes not 2 hours ago. Please don't, I always found it to be such a counter-intuitive mechanic on the laser rifle, don't do it to the rail rifle. If changes are needed, I would suggest looking at DPS. Kage...I partially agree. It is a counter-intuitive mechanic, no question with that. My concern is that if you lower the DPS even further (it's already the lowest of the standard rifles) it quickly gets unable to kill at range either. The path is very narrow to make the RR acceptable to those who get killed by it often and making it pretty useless. I'm not even sure if the RR even needs a nerf at all, though if it does then I think something like more kick and spread while NOT aiming down sight could also be an alternative.
That's basically my stance as well.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
|
|
|
Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1195
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 13:53:00 -
[51] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:Ok...rail rifles. Again.
This is a tough discussion and I admittedly come at it from pretty dedicated RR user perspective. I am, however, interested everyone enjoying a balanced game.
Let's a take a quick look at the RR from the perspective of someone that uses it or the assault variant fairly exclusively.
1) Lowest DPS of racial rifles. That's pretty legit when compared to the range...no major issues with that. That said, with the DPS at this point it's pretty close to not being useful at longer rangers as its very easy to duck out of the way or get behind cover before taking terminal damage.
2) Charge time. This is oft argued back and forth with little positive headway. Many say the charge time is so negligible that it doesn't matter, people flutter the trigger, or pre-fire takes care of everything. My general response is that if it's such non-factor then remove it from the weapon or you could have a similar charge time penalty that you get on rail turrets when you "game" the spool time. I would also point out that this is the only major weapon drawback that doesn't have an SP sink or Racial Role bonus to offset it.
3) Hip fire vs ADS. One thing that hasn't been touched yet is the hip fire; this might help quite a bit if the hip fire was toned done noticeable. You can just about weave between shots with the low RoF and a cut in hip fire accuracy might be just the thing in order.
4) Mag size and reload time. These really are secondary factors but not something to overlook either. Lowest reload time and mag capacity for racial LW but you can offset these combat efficiency gaps with the weapons skill SP sinks. Again...shortcoming that can be mitigated with SP which is a basic positive theme.
5) Comparison to Laser Rifle. The Laser Rifle isn't counted as a basic racial rifle as far as I can tell so the direct comparisons may be a bit off. The similar range profiles is what generally draw the comparisons and conceptually the increasing damage overtime with a laser works very well. I would also concur with one of the earlier posters that "you can melt heavies" as I've witnessed some good LR users do just that. There is no real logical way to adjust a kinetic penetrator's damage profile to having less impact closer than it does at longer range and frankly there are other things to tweak outside of that.
6) Caldari Weapons kit bag. This kinda goes at the heart of it to me...if you make the RR too niche (and my opinion is that it can very easily drift that way) is that you leave a racial line without any kind of general purpose weapon. The short answer its that it doesn't make sense to do that without some built in off-set. Lot's of folks rightly point out that the Cal method relies on dealing damage at range...no issue with that; the thing people forget is to take an objective in game or conceptually from a lore stand point you still have to close the tactical gap and you shouldn't be too gimped. A CalLogi actually trying to run a support set up you can quickly be at a level of disadvantage that is a bit much.
My proposal to that is to actually make the ARR (or perhaps the MagSec) the viable option in mid-range combat and keep relevance in shorter combat ranges. For the ARR noticably cut the range down, keep RoF, and consider cutting the charge time a bit. I recommend changing the Operation skill to reducing the spool time and dropping the recoil reduction. The charge time is considered negligible because of 1) The already short time of RR reload 2) The Caldari Assault Bonus Whe these stack the reload which often comprises other weapons, does not comprimise the RR, instead the charge time does. Ot requires skill to when and where to stop amd start firing, but in short the RR works best when fired continously. You will notice in my graph the caldari will most definitely have general purpose weapons. The DPS of the Breach RR is only mildly lower than its current (but it gets a range increase) it out DPS's the Assault Rifles at about 50m , excluding changes to accuracy, but it also has a shorter range version in the ARR. This is the problem with the current state of rifles they only 'feel' balanced because we only use a few select rifles.
Monkey...a few points:
1) I believe the reload time on the Rail Rifle is the longest of any light weapon...you say it's already "short".
2) The Cal Assault bonus again has nothing to do with charge time so I'm confused at why you bring it up in that context.
3) The graphs - Tthere is no such thing as a "Breach" Rail Rifle; took me a minute to cypher through that and I'm really not seeing where you got the DPS value for the RR on the first graph (or perhaps I'm just having difficult time reading it). It also appears to me that your graph may not be accounting for the DPS degradation from the charge mechanic.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
|
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
408
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 15:57:00 -
[52] - Quote
Temias Mercurial wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Temias Mercurial wrote:I still think that the rail rifle should have an effect similar to the laser rifle's close up reduced damage, as it's suppose to be a long range weapon, but is still ludicrously good at CQC due to it's damage output. That's exactly what I wrote in my notes not 2 hours ago. why does everyone compare the rail rifle to the laser rifle? the laser rifle is a support weapon. the rail rifle is a primary weapon. the sniper rifle is a support weapon. its long range. if i ran around with a tactical sniper rifle and started popping dudes under 100m would people cry and ask that its bullets magically do less damage at closer ranges? someone explain to me how a chunk of solid matter fire with with as much kinetic energy and velocity as needed to reach the range as the rail rifle, wouldnt punch straight through anyone at close range. tell me how, a bullet does less damage close up than it does at range? can anyone sure me a weapon, any weapon at all that fires a projectile of any sort that does less damage up close and more damage at range? we're talking about a bullet gaining kinetic energy while in flight lol EDIT: making the RR less effective up close remove the only primary weapon the caldari have from general use. what other light weapon would we have for use at under 50m? the amarr have the Scr. you guys plan on giving us some other weapon? buffing the magsec? what? if you want to make the RR less effective at closer ranges, then i should be hearing some ideas about making it even more effective at longer ranges. 100m optimal range? 120, 130 effective range? do we want to go there? 2nd EDIT: flip the RR range profile. effective range 0-25m optimal range 26-100m and decrease the charge up time on the magsec to .25 and .20 for the bolt pistol As someone who has Proto Amarr Assault and Viziam Laser Rifle... the laser is not a support weapon. I melt heavies with the damn thing . The reason why people compare the two weapons is because they have the greatest range of rifles (other than the sniper rifle, which is not a combat weapon). The Laser is balanced as it has to deal damage over time, and wastes ammunition when doing so, and has a hefty amount of feadback damage when it overheats. The rail rifle doesn't have a penalty for using it when it does such stupendous damage at any range. To explain why the rail rifle does more damage over range than up close: As the projectile travels a greater distance, it gains more kinetic force and velocity that is not achieved when first fired (for whatever reason scientifically); however, it does eventually lose force over a certain distance (the effective to absolute range).
not possible. projectiles start losing kinetic energy the moment theyre fired. friction against the air cause the projectile to lose kinetic energy of time and distance. gravity would cause an increase in kinetic energy, but only up to a certain point where again the air would keep it from gaining anymore kinetic energy. even if you fire the weapon in the space where theres a vacuum, you wouldnt gain anymore more kinetic energy than when you first fire the weapon. without the air theres no friction and so it would maintain its kinetic energy until it collided with something.
scientifically its impossible that a weapon gain kinetic energy unless some outside force is applied, such as gravity.
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VikingKong iBUN
G0DS AM0NG MEN
General Tso's Alliance
106
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Posted - 2014.07.06 16:04:00 -
[53] - Quote
Ralden Caster wrote:Baal Omniscient wrote:Also, point: In order to keep overall balance, the HMG will need to be adjusted along with the rifles.
If these changes were to be put into effect, the HMG range needs to be dropped to "close" status. HMG's dispersion is not enough to reduce it's effectiveness at "short" range. Assault variant rifles should be able to out DPS an HMG at the edge of it's optimal, and it can't do that when after 1 second of firing the HMG's spread has shrunk enough to hit you with almost every bullet. That, or instead of getting a tighter spread the longer it fires, it should get wider the more you shoot (as any person thinking about it logically would have made it from the start) making it less effective at range unless you fire in bursts. Also, if this happens, the time it takes for the circular crosshairs to change from full size to normal size should be around 2 seconds and the crosshair should start at about half it's current size to allow for expansion. The HMG is supposed to be able to shred you. Heavies are the staple of defense and should require more effort to take down. If heavies could chase you down easily and jump heights higher than their kneecaps, then we could talk.
If this were true then everyone would be a heavy. Oh wait, everyone is a heavy! CCP why the **** did you listen to this guy? |
Temias Mercurial
Knights Of Ender
RISE of LEGION
111
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 16:39:00 -
[54] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:Temias Mercurial wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Temias Mercurial wrote:I still think that the rail rifle should have an effect similar to the laser rifle's close up reduced damage, as it's suppose to be a long range weapon, but is still ludicrously good at CQC due to it's damage output. That's exactly what I wrote in my notes not 2 hours ago. why does everyone compare the rail rifle to the laser rifle? the laser rifle is a support weapon. the rail rifle is a primary weapon. the sniper rifle is a support weapon. its long range. if i ran around with a tactical sniper rifle and started popping dudes under 100m would people cry and ask that its bullets magically do less damage at closer ranges? someone explain to me how a chunk of solid matter fire with with as much kinetic energy and velocity as needed to reach the range as the rail rifle, wouldnt punch straight through anyone at close range. tell me how, a bullet does less damage close up than it does at range? can anyone sure me a weapon, any weapon at all that fires a projectile of any sort that does less damage up close and more damage at range? we're talking about a bullet gaining kinetic energy while in flight lol EDIT: making the RR less effective up close remove the only primary weapon the caldari have from general use. what other light weapon would we have for use at under 50m? the amarr have the Scr. you guys plan on giving us some other weapon? buffing the magsec? what? if you want to make the RR less effective at closer ranges, then i should be hearing some ideas about making it even more effective at longer ranges. 100m optimal range? 120, 130 effective range? do we want to go there? 2nd EDIT: flip the RR range profile. effective range 0-25m optimal range 26-100m and decrease the charge up time on the magsec to .25 and .20 for the bolt pistol As someone who has Proto Amarr Assault and Viziam Laser Rifle... the laser is not a support weapon. I melt heavies with the damn thing . The reason why people compare the two weapons is because they have the greatest range of rifles (other than the sniper rifle, which is not a combat weapon). The Laser is balanced as it has to deal damage over time, and wastes ammunition when doing so, and has a hefty amount of feadback damage when it overheats. The rail rifle doesn't have a penalty for using it when it does such stupendous damage at any range. To explain why the rail rifle does more damage over range than up close: As the projectile travels a greater distance, it gains more kinetic force and velocity that is not achieved when first fired (for whatever reason scientifically); however, it does eventually lose force over a certain distance (the effective to absolute range). not possible. projectiles start losing kinetic energy the moment theyre fired. friction against the air cause the projectile to lose kinetic energy of time and distance. gravity would cause an increase in kinetic energy, but only up to a certain point where again the air would keep it from gaining anymore kinetic energy. even if you fire the weapon in the space where theres a vacuum, you wouldnt gain anymore more kinetic energy than when you first fire the weapon. without the air theres no friction and so it would maintain its kinetic energy until it collided with something. scientifically its impossible that a weapon gain kinetic energy unless some outside force is applied, such as gravity.
Thanks for the reply  , but the rail gun projectile is not really physical, it's a electromagnetic round fired through a series of rails on the rifle (hence the name). Is there anything that could affect the increase of velocity and/or kinetic damage over a set distance? Maybe a magnetic attraction to dropsuits? Let's say that the projectile is already traveling at a great speed, so up close the magnetic attraction has no additive to damage, but at a distance, if accurate, can potentially increase damage output.
Thoughts?
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3026
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Posted - 2014.07.06 17:40:00 -
[55] - Quote
Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:Ok...rail rifles. Again.
This is a tough discussion and I admittedly come at it from pretty dedicated RR user perspective. I am, however, interested everyone enjoying a balanced game.
Let's a take a quick look at the RR from the perspective of someone that uses it or the assault variant fairly exclusively.
1) Lowest DPS of racial rifles. That's pretty legit when compared to the range...no major issues with that. That said, with the DPS at this point it's pretty close to not being useful at longer rangers as its very easy to duck out of the way or get behind cover before taking terminal damage.
2) Charge time. This is oft argued back and forth with little positive headway. Many say the charge time is so negligible that it doesn't matter, people flutter the trigger, or pre-fire takes care of everything. My general response is that if it's such non-factor then remove it from the weapon or you could have a similar charge time penalty that you get on rail turrets when you "game" the spool time. I would also point out that this is the only major weapon drawback that doesn't have an SP sink or Racial Role bonus to offset it.
3) Hip fire vs ADS. One thing that hasn't been touched yet is the hip fire; this might help quite a bit if the hip fire was toned done noticeable. You can just about weave between shots with the low RoF and a cut in hip fire accuracy might be just the thing in order.
4) Mag size and reload time. These really are secondary factors but not something to overlook either. Lowest reload time and mag capacity for racial LW but you can offset these combat efficiency gaps with the weapons skill SP sinks. Again...shortcoming that can be mitigated with SP which is a basic positive theme.
5) Comparison to Laser Rifle. The Laser Rifle isn't counted as a basic racial rifle as far as I can tell so the direct comparisons may be a bit off. The similar range profiles is what generally draw the comparisons and conceptually the increasing damage overtime with a laser works very well. I would also concur with one of the earlier posters that "you can melt heavies" as I've witnessed some good LR users do just that. There is no real logical way to adjust a kinetic penetrator's damage profile to having less impact closer than it does at longer range and frankly there are other things to tweak outside of that.
6) Caldari Weapons kit bag. This kinda goes at the heart of it to me...if you make the RR too niche (and my opinion is that it can very easily drift that way) is that you leave a racial line without any kind of general purpose weapon. The short answer its that it doesn't make sense to do that without some built in off-set. Lot's of folks rightly point out that the Cal method relies on dealing damage at range...no issue with that; the thing people forget is to take an objective in game or conceptually from a lore stand point you still have to close the tactical gap and you shouldn't be too gimped. A CalLogi actually trying to run a support set up you can quickly be at a level of disadvantage that is a bit much.
My proposal to that is to actually make the ARR (or perhaps the MagSec) the viable option in mid-range combat and keep relevance in shorter combat ranges. For the ARR noticably cut the range down, keep RoF, and consider cutting the charge time a bit. I recommend changing the Operation skill to reducing the spool time and dropping the recoil reduction. The charge time is considered negligible because of 1) The already short time of RR reload 2) The Caldari Assault Bonus Whe these stack the reload which often comprises other weapons, does not comprimise the RR, instead the charge time does. Ot requires skill to when and where to stop amd start firing, but in short the RR works best when fired continously. You will notice in my graph the caldari will most definitely have general purpose weapons. The DPS of the Breach RR is only mildly lower than its current (but it gets a range increase) it out DPS's the Assault Rifles at about 50m , excluding changes to accuracy, but it also has a shorter range version in the ARR. This is the problem with the current state of rifles they only 'feel' balanced because we only use a few select rifles. Monkey...a few points: 1) I believe the reload time on the Rail Rifle is the longest of any light weapon...you say it's already "short". 2) The Cal Assault bonus again has nothing to do with charge time so I'm confused at why you bring it up in that context. 3) The graphs - Tthere is no such thing as a "Breach" Rail Rifle; took me a minute to cypher through that and I'm really not seeing where you got the DPS value for the RR on the first graph (or perhaps I'm just having difficult time reading it). It also appears to me that your graph may not be accounting for the DPS degradation from the charge mechanic.
Because as the reload time gets shorter, the charge time remains constant.
Charge + TTE + Reload == TTE + Reload
The charge basically move the DPS loss from reloading to the front. If you see what I mean, therefore shortening the caldari reload offsets the drawbacks of the charge.
The Breach Rail Rifle and the Rail Rifle are the same thing, it is categorised as a breach weapon, as the combat is a burst amd the scrambler a tac. It's just easier to refer to it as a breach to show it is meant to be long range.
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
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Dalton Smithe
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
103
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Posted - 2014.07.07 02:54:00 -
[56] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Dalton Smithe wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:
The Combat Rifle is officially the worst Assault Variant Rifle
Officially, huh? So many people using a bad weapon doing so well. Thank goodness they aren't using a good weapon. Well it has the second lowest Assault Rifle DPS and a grand total of 6m extra range over the gallante. -33 DPS +6m Range -17 DPS +6m Range (including Damage Profile) while on the other hand ARR -50 DPS +30m Range AScR -33 DPS +12m Range Literally the only thing the Assault Combat Rifle has going for it is a broken damage profile. Which as you will probably realize is omitted from the graph. You are forgetting other factors that reduce a weapons effectiveness. Simply putting a range/dps model up there an calling weapons good or bad is not the way to go. Accuracy, falloff, everything needs to be taken into account.... As you will see in the graph (assuming falloff is linear), this is taken care of. The Assault Rifles still out DPS the Breach Rifles for a decent amount of time. In the Balanced version (assuming projectile profile is changed to match explosive) The minmatar and Amarr are ALWAYS the best race per variant when taking on Armour or Shield only tanked suits respectively. While the gallante and caldari work best when the ratio of tank is closer to 50% Burst weapons only start outclassing assaults when used upon the correct tank type and a decent profiency level. Since the Difference in range and DPS between races is negligible, popularity is swayed less by which has the best DPS/pm value and which one suits the player best. Furthermore it suits the lore better without turning it into spreadsheets and auto-fire
Although this is pretty much closed to balance(as per rattati) you still only put a DPS/range model up there. You didn't take into account dispersion, accuracy of each weapon ect. To be honest your evaluation of rifles is limited at best.
The combat rifle(even though the values posted in game state otherwise) can out DPS most other rifles. I have, on numerous occasions, been fighting people sporting combat rifles, while I have switched tactics, using rail rifles or assault, they repeatedly whittle me down.... |
Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
Psychotic Alliance
1430
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Posted - 2014.07.07 04:11:00 -
[57] - Quote
To be honest, I think the rail rifle is better served as a tactical rifle instead of a breach. Caldari are all about making each shot count, and the tactical rifle does that perfectly. It also has a charge up on it already. All we have to do is change the charge to be like the charge sniper rifle. Give it more range than it has now, perhaps out to 90m. Give it more damage so that it can kill a medium suit in about 3-4 shots.
It turns it into a mini sniper rifle almost, forcing you to pick your shots and try and keep your range advantage, while its counter is getting in close, where the other rifles deal higher DPs and have an easier time landing hits in close quarters.
Calmanndo user with nova knives: Because someone has to do it.
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1199
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Posted - 2014.07.07 05:50:00 -
[58] - Quote
Temias Mercurial wrote:Thanks for the reply , but the rail gun projectile is not really physical, it's a electromagnetic round fired through a series of rails on the rifle (hence the name). Is there anything that could affect the increase of velocity and/or kinetic damage over a set distance? Maybe a magnetic attraction to dropsuits? Let's say that the projectile is already traveling at a great speed, so up close the magnetic attraction has no additive to damage, but at a distance, if accurate, can potentially increase damage output. Thoughts?
The round itself isn't electromagnetic. Basically a rail weapon uses electromagnets to impel a ferrous metal penetrator (usually something that looks like a small dart or perhaps pellet) at hyper velocities. Basic physics...you can't gain speed and or kinetic force without continued propulsion.
I've done a little bit of work with the applied sciences facet of rail weapons in my day job a while back.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1199
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 05:53:00 -
[59] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:To be honest, I think the rail rifle is better served as a tactical rifle instead of a breach. Caldari are all about making each shot count, and the tactical rifle does that perfectly. It also has a charge up on it already. All we have to do is change the charge to be like the charge sniper rifle. Give it more range than it has now, perhaps out to 90m. Give it more damage so that it can kill a medium suit in about 3-4 shots.
It turns it into a mini sniper rifle almost, forcing you to pick your shots and try and keep your range advantage, while its counter is getting in close, where the other rifles deal higher DPs and have an easier time landing hits in close quarters.
I've said similar in other posts so I would be willing to explore that.
My follow up question is what would you do with the rest of the Cal weapon line to give the Caldari a competitive chance as they close the gap to secure objectives or the inevitable CQC fight?
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1199
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 06:00:00 -
[60] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:
Because as the reload time gets shorter, the charge time remains constant.
Charge + TTE + Reload == TTE + Reload
The charge basically move the DPS loss from reloading to the front. If you see what I mean, therefore shortening the caldari reload offsets the drawbacks of the charge.
The Breach Rail Rifle and the Rail Rifle are the same thing, it is categorised as a breach weapon, as the combat is a burst amd the scrambler a tac. It's just easier to refer to it as a breach to show it is meant to be long range.
Sorry, MAC...you're losing me with your formula.
The reality is that it just doesn't play out that way in live play.
1) You can't take the weapons at their min / max, i.e. only in the hands of assaults, to get the full picture.
2) There is no clear exchange of DPS loss from Charge to Reload. Reload speed even on a max skilled and proto Cal Assault isn't "zero".
I would be more than happy to squad up and talk through my thoughts on this and I would be interested in hearing you describe your rubric.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
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Temias Mercurial
Knights Of Ender
RISE of LEGION
111
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Posted - 2014.07.07 06:42:00 -
[61] - Quote
Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:Temias Mercurial wrote:Thanks for the reply , but the rail gun projectile is not really physical, it's a electromagnetic round fired through a series of rails on the rifle (hence the name). Is there anything that could affect the increase of velocity and/or kinetic damage over a set distance? Maybe a magnetic attraction to dropsuits? Let's say that the projectile is already traveling at a great speed, so up close the magnetic attraction has no additive to damage, but at a distance, if accurate, can potentially increase damage output. Thoughts? The round itself isn't electromagnetic. Basically a rail weapon uses electromagnets to impel a ferrous metal penetrator (usually something that looks like a small dart or perhaps pellet) at hyper velocities. Basic physics...you can't gain speed and or kinetic force without continued propulsion. I've done a little bit of work with the applied sciences facet of rail weapons in my day job a while back.
Yes, but do we really know for certain that the projectile is indeed a solid object when the technology spans 20 thousand years into the future, and in a different galaxy that potentially has different elements and properties? Although rail guns are based of our current technology and concept, it could be vastly different in the future. Hypothetically, our known physics can not apply to this technology. We have clones that transfer their conscience into another body upon death... practical immortality. Everything of which we know and understand could be completely invalid in the concept of this universe, or is vastly shadowed by how little our knowledge is in comparison. For all we know, the 'projectile' could indeed gain velocity and kinetic force from unknown properties far beyond our current understanding.
On another note, what if the projectile had a second fire or function that goes off after a set distance or time to achieve maximum results? Setting it off too early could result in damaging the firing mechanism, rifle, and user. |
Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3033
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Posted - 2014.07.07 11:05:00 -
[62] - Quote
Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:
Because as the reload time gets shorter, the charge time remains constant.
Charge + TTE + Reload == TTE + Reload
The charge basically move the DPS loss from reloading to the front. If you see what I mean, therefore shortening the caldari reload offsets the drawbacks of the charge.
The Breach Rail Rifle and the Rail Rifle are the same thing, it is categorised as a breach weapon, as the combat is a burst amd the scrambler a tac. It's just easier to refer to it as a breach to show it is meant to be long range.
Sorry, MAC...you're losing me with your formula. The reality is that it just doesn't play out that way in live play. 1) You can't take the weapons at their min / max, i.e. only in the hands of assaults, to get the full picture. 2) There is no clear exchange of DPS loss from Charge to Reload. Reload speed even on a max skilled and proto Cal Assault isn't "zero". I would be more than happy to squad up and talk through my thoughts on this and I would be interested in hearing you describe your rubric.
I have a Channel Monkey-Busting and am on regularly if you wish to chat. I understand that the DPS/Range scaling isn't ALL their is to balance, but as far as I'm concerned, it most definitely is the most important.
Furthermore things such as reload time, etc can be tweaked to not effect balance entirely.
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3033
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Posted - 2014.07.07 11:13:00 -
[63] - Quote
Dalton Smithe wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:Dalton Smithe wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:
Officially, huh?
So many people using a bad weapon doing so well.
Thank goodness they aren't using a good weapon.
Well it has the second lowest Assault Rifle DPS and a grand total of 6m extra range over the gallante. -33 DPS +6m Range -17 DPS +6m Range (including Damage Profile) while on the other hand ARR -50 DPS +30m Range AScR -33 DPS +12m Range Literally the only thing the Assault Combat Rifle has going for it is a broken damage profile. Which as you will probably realize is omitted from the graph. You are forgetting other factors that reduce a weapons effectiveness. Simply putting a range/dps model up there an calling weapons good or bad is not the way to go. Accuracy, falloff, everything needs to be taken into account.... As you will see in the graph (assuming falloff is linear), this is taken care of. The Assault Rifles still out DPS the Breach Rifles for a decent amount of time. In the Balanced version (assuming projectile profile is changed to match explosive) The minmatar and Amarr are ALWAYS the best race per variant when taking on Armour or Shield only tanked suits respectively. While the gallante and caldari work best when the ratio of tank is closer to 50% Burst weapons only start outclassing assaults when used upon the correct tank type and a decent profiency level. Since the Difference in range and DPS between races is negligible, popularity is swayed less by which has the best DPS/pm value and which one suits the player best. Furthermore it suits the lore better without turning it into spreadsheets and auto-fire Although this is pretty much closed to balance(as per rattati) you still only put a DPS/range model up there. You didn't take into account dispersion, accuracy of each weapon ect. To be honest your evaluation of rifles is limited at best. The combat rifle(even though the values posted in game state otherwise) can out DPS most other rifles. I have, on numerous occasions, been fighting people sporting combat rifles, while I have switched tactics, using rail rifles or assault, they repeatedly whittle me down....
You will actually see that my graph shows this, the Burst Variant Combat Rifle can reach about 500 DPS, when fired at full auto which it is more than capable of doing.
Pair this with Damage Profile effectively giving a 5% boost and it's easy to see the problem.
The Combat Rifles burst is too fast, it needs to be brought down to about 4 bursts a second (12 shots) and taken from there.
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
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Eldurian Invictus
Namtar Elite
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2014.07.07 11:25:00 -
[64] - Quote
If I could change 1 thing about rifles I would say give ARsthe scope their model already displays. Those damn iron sights are annoying. |
Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1204
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Posted - 2014.07.07 15:06:00 -
[65] - Quote
Temias Mercurial wrote:Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:Temias Mercurial wrote:Thanks for the reply , but the rail gun projectile is not really physical, it's a electromagnetic round fired through a series of rails on the rifle (hence the name). Is there anything that could affect the increase of velocity and/or kinetic damage over a set distance? Maybe a magnetic attraction to dropsuits? Let's say that the projectile is already traveling at a great speed, so up close the magnetic attraction has no additive to damage, but at a distance, if accurate, can potentially increase damage output. Thoughts? The round itself isn't electromagnetic. Basically a rail weapon uses electromagnets to impel a ferrous metal penetrator (usually something that looks like a small dart or perhaps pellet) at hyper velocities. Basic physics...you can't gain speed and or kinetic force without continued propulsion. I've done a little bit of work with the applied sciences facet of rail weapons in my day job a while back. Yes, but do we really know for certain that the projectile is indeed a solid object when the technology spans 20 thousand years into the future, and in a different galaxy that potentially has different elements and properties? Although rail guns are based of our current technology and concept, it could be vastly different in the future. Hypothetically, our known physics can not apply to this technology. We have clones that transfer their conscience into another body upon death... practical immortality. Everything of which we know and understand could be completely invalid in the concept of this universe, or is vastly shadowed by how little our knowledge is in comparison. For all we know, the 'projectile' could indeed gain velocity and kinetic force from unknown properties far beyond our current understanding. On another note, what if the projectile had a second fire or function that goes off after a set distance or time to achieve maximum results? Setting it off too early could result in damaging the firing mechanism, rifle, and user.
The science fiction part of the discussion aside i actually like the idea of the charge shot function. You could have a weapon that has a similar mechanic as the SCR with some tweaks:
1) remove the charge up time per shot.
2) Normal firing mode would give you current (or even perhaps slightly less DPS) than it does now.
3) Charge shot scales damage up dramatically and give moderate increase to optimal range.
4) Once the charge shot is fired it "dumps" all energy stored in the capacitor...inducing a serious penalty (5 sec) before you can either A) fire normally, or B) begin charging for another shot
5) Note...the charge shot mechanic should work similar to the rail turret charge so that if you balk on the trigger (i.e. let off prior to charge you incur the charge penalty).
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
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David Spd
Caldari State
140
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Posted - 2014.07.07 18:50:00 -
[66] - Quote
In my opinion this thread has gone off the deep end of science and logic.
In the end of the day, Dust 514 is fiction. And it is a video game.
Video games are intended to be fun, and logic (and oftentimes scientific accuracy) are usually a secondary objective.
On the subject of weapons & suits I don't have any hard numbers or graphs to show, but as someone who's been playing Caldari Assault since CB and used Rail Rifles since their release, I have a hard time finding the justification for the opinion on nerfing them.
Caldari themselves are all ready having a hard time with their low armor and shields being rather unreliable. If hotfix Charlie changes Assault suits and/or shield modules to be able to stand toe to toe with the other races then I can see bringing down the power level or effectiveness of the Rail Rifles.
But as it currently stands I think the problem with Rail Rifles isn't actually the gun itself, but the ability to fit it on any other suit. I think for Caldari (which I find to be the "glass cannon" race) it makes sense. High damage output but fragile defenses. High risk, high reward type gameplay. If consensus is that the Rail Rifle needs to be nerfed further... I would like to ask that something get touched that can be lessened by racial investment.
I am a strong believer in using your race's equipment, but I realize that there aren't any hard restrictions. I think that equipment (especially weaponry) should really shine in the hands of a user it was made for (suit manufacturer and racial training/experience). I don't think it's right to further push Caldari out of the front lines by bringing the gun's power level down.
Again I'll reiterate that I think if the gun "needs" to be nerfed, then it needs to be nerfed in a way that makes it less effective in the hands of anybody but Caldari specialized fittings.
Somewhat off-topic: I personally don't think (under normal circumstances) a Caldari soldier of any kind should be in the frontline. The combination of the weapons and suit don't mesh well with that type of playstyle in my experience. The spool time and reload has gotten me killed more often than I'd like to admit, and while I can't really say the gun is "balanced", I DO think that it should be powerful in the right hands.
--> I'm a closed beta vet; I just don't post often <--
"Other people just complicate my life." ~Solid Snake
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Greiv Rabbah
KiLo.
11
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Posted - 2014.07.07 20:02:00 -
[67] - Quote
Regarding the rifles, I think
Assault rifle - close range shredding in gallente style. High ROF in line with assault weapons
Combat rifle - short range burst spraying shards of metal like a Minmatar gun should. Low damage handled by a high ROF balancing it for burst combat.
Scrambler rifle - mid range tactical rifle breaks down enemy shields rapidly as expected of a Minmatar gun. High damage managed by low ROF let's this gun pierce through a lined up target.
Rail rifle - long range breach rifle for caldari hit and run assault. The low ROF on this rifle compared with the high range and damage make this rifle excel as a breach weapon, piercing to and through armor while outdistancing the other rifles.
Here the 4 races, 4 rifles, 4 damage types, and 4 attack types all seem to me to fall into place in a very balanced and somewhat niche way(that's good!)
Instead I would query the pistols(Minmatar pistol is a joke), the classes(still lacking a light class...) Overall weapons parity(Amarr grenades?) Or full racial parity(vehicles... Like Minmatar ones... And MTACs) surely there is good work in all these areas to be done or how about restoring previous vehicles? Crying rifles for hotfix charlie when they've had so much work done and so much else needs so much work is just being a baby. I'm sorry you got hit with a rail rifle; get behind cover. |
Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3036
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Posted - 2014.07.07 21:57:00 -
[68] - Quote
Greiv Rabbah wrote:Regarding the rifles, I think
Assault rifle - close range shredding in gallente style. High ROF in line with assault weapons
Combat rifle - short range burst spraying shards of metal like a Minmatar gun should. Low damage handled by a high ROF balancing it for burst combat.
Scrambler rifle - mid range tactical rifle breaks down enemy shields rapidly as expected of a Minmatar gun. High damage managed by low ROF let's this gun pierce through a lined up target.
Rail rifle - long range breach rifle for caldari hit and run assault. The low ROF on this rifle compared with the high range and damage make this rifle excel as a breach weapon, piercing to and through armor while outdistancing the other rifles.
Here the 4 races, 4 rifles, 4 damage types, and 4 attack types all seem to me to fall into place in a very balanced and somewhat niche way(that's good!)
Instead I would query the pistols(Minmatar pistol is a joke), the classes(still lacking a light class...) Overall weapons parity(Amarr grenades?) Or full racial parity(vehicles... Like Minmatar ones... And MTACs) surely there is good work in all these areas to be done or how about restoring previous vehicles? Crying rifles for hotfix charlie when they've had so much work done and so much else needs so much work is just being a baby. I'm sorry you got hit with a rail rifle; get behind cover.
But you see then are a few things are no lomger taken into account.
1) Damage Profile - if each race only has 1 range what difference does damage profile do other than to marganilse specific weapons? My choice of damage profile should effect my chances as much as my range does.
2) Racial Range Variety - It's all well amd good saying all RR's should have long range, but there are more chareristics that are more important to the rifle, you need to allow each race to have a good variety, otherwise people just won't use specific weapons.
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
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Greiv Rabbah
KiLo.
11
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Posted - 2014.07.08 12:25:00 -
[69] - Quote
Quote stuff:
But you see then are a few things are no lomger taken into account.
1) Damage Profile - if each race only has 1 range what difference does damage profile do other than to marganilse specific weapons? My choice of damage profile should effect my chances as much as my range does.
They don't and shouldn'teach have one range. Differing weapons should and do have different range classes ie the bolt pistol has way way closer effective range than the sniper rifle, and it should although theyre both rail gun and long range for their weapon class. And as far as confining people to ranges by race look at shotgun>mass driver>laser rifle>sniper rifle and those ranges are completely forced with those weapons... Yet it isn't a problem. Outside the shotguns range the ion pistol is powerful moving into the assault rifle range through burst qnd tactical up to breach ar, and for ranges beyond that, there is plasma cannon. Remotes flaylock smg hmg combat rifle mass driver. Assault scrambler pistol, scrambler pistol, burst scrambler pistol, breach scrambler pistol, assault scrambler rifle, scrambler rifle, laser rifle. Bolt pistol magsec swarm launcher rail rifle forge gun sniper rifle... At which ranges exactly does a race not have a damage type represented? However gallente should eat caldari at close range amd gallente should get picked off easier from a distance and pairing shotgun vs bolt pistol or plasma cannon vs sniper rifle reveals this to be true and working well
2) Racial Range Variety - It's all well amd good saying all RR's should have long range, but there are more chareristics that are more important to the rifle, you need to allow each race to have a good variety, otherwise people just won't use specific weapons.
You may be right but thats not even a problem. Sure I don't use a rail rifle more than I use a breach assault rifle, but plenty of others do and they tear up shotgunner from afar or get eaten up by them up close as it should be. I think its too effective at close range, but when I use it I see it handles very poorly up close and when I think to cry about it I button my lip instead and just play |
Finn Colman
Immortal Guides
25
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Posted - 2014.07.08 17:24:00 -
[70] - Quote
General12912 wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Thanks for the feedback, but we are not touching Rifles in the short term. Our data and forums are in agreement that rifles have never been as balanced as they are currently. If that changes, we will come to the forums for feedback. Right now, there are many things we want to tweak and fix that have higher priority. then my feelings are true. and the rifles are extremely balanced. this just confirms what ive been trying to tell people all along.
It really doesn't mean much that there are higher priority problems... |
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3042
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Posted - 2014.07.08 18:23:00 -
[71] - Quote
Greiv Rabbah wrote:Quote stuff:
But you see then are a few things are no lomger taken into account.
1) Damage Profile - if each race only has 1 range what difference does damage profile do other than to marganilse specific weapons? My choice of damage profile should effect my chances as much as my range does.
They don't and shouldn'teach have one range. Differing weapons should and do have different range classes ie the bolt pistol has way way closer effective range than the sniper rifle, and it should although theyre both rail gun and long range for their weapon class. And as far as confining people to ranges by race look at shotgun>mass driver>laser rifle>sniper rifle and those ranges are completely forced with those weapons... Yet it isn't a problem. Outside the shotguns range the ion pistol is powerful moving into the assault rifle range through burst qnd tactical up to breach ar, and for ranges beyond that, there is plasma cannon. Remotes flaylock smg hmg combat rifle mass driver. Assault scrambler pistol, scrambler pistol, burst scrambler pistol, breach scrambler pistol, assault scrambler rifle, scrambler rifle, laser rifle. Bolt pistol magsec swarm launcher rail rifle forge gun sniper rifle... At which ranges exactly does a race not have a damage type represented? However gallente should eat caldari at close range amd gallente should get picked off easier from a distance and pairing shotgun vs bolt pistol or plasma cannon vs sniper rifle reveals this to be true and working well
2) Racial Range Variety - It's all well amd good saying all RR's should have long range, but there are more chareristics that are more important to the rifle, you need to allow each race to have a good variety, otherwise people just won't use specific weapons.
You may be right but thats not even a problem. Sure I don't use a rail rifle more than I use a breach assault rifle, but plenty of others do and they tear up shotgunner from afar or get eaten up by them up close as it should be. I think its too effective at close range, but when I use it I see it handles very poorly up close and when I think to cry about it I button my lip instead and just play
You and I seem to be from the same hymn sheet, but at different ends.
Furthermore you have very conflicting opinions within your own arguement.
||And as far as confining people to ranges by race look at shotgun>mass driver>laser rifle>sniper rifle and those ranges are completely forced with those weapons... Yet it isn't a problem.||
The Plasma Cannon and the Mass Driver both belong in the launcher category along side the Swarm Launcher, yet Minmatar AV has as of yet not been precluded from Legion.
The prescision rifle (A minmatar sniper rifle) has been in conceptual design for as long as I can remember, this has also not been procluded from Legion.
The Current Gallante Shotgun, Minmatar AOE, Amarr Laser and Caldari Sniper Rifle are simply archetypes, they are the orginals. Much like the AR was back when it was the only rifle you could have.
||They don't and Shouldn't each have one range||
No, they shouldn't, that's what my entire reply was getting at. So I will ask you a simple question.
If I have a long range Gallante Rifle (like the TACAR) does it make sense that a short range Caldari Rifle (like the ARR) should outrange it?
If you said yes, then you are saying each race should have a specific (or unique range of ) range(s), if you said no then you are saying each variant rifle should have a specific (or unique range of) ranges(s).
In the first instance, all gallante rifles become effectively short range, this creates a problem since your damage profile remains constant your enemies simply choose armour based suits (such as amarr) with armour based weapons (such as minmatar, which also outrange you) suddenly no matter how close you get to them you will be out DPS'd not because you made a bad choice in rifle, but a bad choice in race.
In the second instance, you can go close range still, but now you have 4 races and their associated profiles, styles, positives and weaknesses. The fact you are using a short range rifle does not mean you are weak to any particular tank type any more as a collection of weapons, instead you are weak to particular ranges.
Like I said, you are singing from the same hymn book, you just aren't quite on the same page.
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
10738
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Posted - 2014.07.09 06:14:00 -
[72] - Quote
The Assault Combat Rifle has excellent hip fire accuracy, quick reloads, best damage profile and zero recoil.
It's fire rate of 1200RPM also gives it the chainsaw effect, where you can swipe over an enemy and still do a considerable amount of damage, which is very useful in CQC.
There are more values than DPS to consider.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Tora Kiri
G.L.O.R.Y
Dark Taboo
0
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Posted - 2014.08.03 14:13:00 -
[73] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:The Assault Combat Rifle has excellent hip fire accuracy, quick reloads, best damage profile and zero recoil.
It's fire rate of 1200RPM also gives it the chainsaw effect, where you can swipe over an enemy and still do a considerable amount of damage, which is very useful in CQC.
There are more values than DPS to consider. I use a caldari commando, i look for the highest point in that i can utilize my optimal range and **** clones that want to run in the open and and try to out dps me, lol and then they complain about the range and damage, lol why they don't just use cover, i don't complain when a shout gun scout uncloak behind me and drop me in 2 shoots or i turn a corner and run into a heavy with an hmg, every weapon and suite has it advantage and disadvantage learn your weapon learn the weapons learn the drop suite learn the game.
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Maiden selena MORTIMOR
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
57
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Posted - 2014.08.03 14:27:00 -
[74] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Thanks for the feedback, but we are not touching Rifles in the short term. Our data and forums are in agreement that rifles have never been as balanced as they are currently. If that changes, we will come to the forums for feedback. Right now, there are many things we want to tweak and fix that have higher priority.
From the point of view of a laser rifle user I agree with you completely ..2 years I have used my rifle through the op and up and now finally I feel a touch of balance in my matches. they don't need to touch rifles best leave them alone ..before u muck it up by accident and take a look at the side arms as u plan...keep up the recent good work
no im not a mortedeamor alt..im her slave
When my master is banned I represent her wishes and that of the Mortimor famil
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