Pages: 1 2 [3] :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Temias Mercurial
Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION
111
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 06:42:00 -
[61] - Quote
Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:Temias Mercurial wrote:Thanks for the reply , but the rail gun projectile is not really physical, it's a electromagnetic round fired through a series of rails on the rifle (hence the name). Is there anything that could affect the increase of velocity and/or kinetic damage over a set distance? Maybe a magnetic attraction to dropsuits? Let's say that the projectile is already traveling at a great speed, so up close the magnetic attraction has no additive to damage, but at a distance, if accurate, can potentially increase damage output. Thoughts? The round itself isn't electromagnetic. Basically a rail weapon uses electromagnets to impel a ferrous metal penetrator (usually something that looks like a small dart or perhaps pellet) at hyper velocities. Basic physics...you can't gain speed and or kinetic force without continued propulsion. I've done a little bit of work with the applied sciences facet of rail weapons in my day job a while back.
Yes, but do we really know for certain that the projectile is indeed a solid object when the technology spans 20 thousand years into the future, and in a different galaxy that potentially has different elements and properties? Although rail guns are based of our current technology and concept, it could be vastly different in the future. Hypothetically, our known physics can not apply to this technology. We have clones that transfer their conscience into another body upon death... practical immortality. Everything of which we know and understand could be completely invalid in the concept of this universe, or is vastly shadowed by how little our knowledge is in comparison. For all we know, the 'projectile' could indeed gain velocity and kinetic force from unknown properties far beyond our current understanding.
On another note, what if the projectile had a second fire or function that goes off after a set distance or time to achieve maximum results? Setting it off too early could result in damaging the firing mechanism, rifle, and user. |
Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3033
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 11:05:00 -
[62] - Quote
Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:
Because as the reload time gets shorter, the charge time remains constant.
Charge + TTE + Reload == TTE + Reload
The charge basically move the DPS loss from reloading to the front. If you see what I mean, therefore shortening the caldari reload offsets the drawbacks of the charge.
The Breach Rail Rifle and the Rail Rifle are the same thing, it is categorised as a breach weapon, as the combat is a burst amd the scrambler a tac. It's just easier to refer to it as a breach to show it is meant to be long range.
Sorry, MAC...you're losing me with your formula. The reality is that it just doesn't play out that way in live play. 1) You can't take the weapons at their min / max, i.e. only in the hands of assaults, to get the full picture. 2) There is no clear exchange of DPS loss from Charge to Reload. Reload speed even on a max skilled and proto Cal Assault isn't "zero". I would be more than happy to squad up and talk through my thoughts on this and I would be interested in hearing you describe your rubric.
I have a Channel Monkey-Busting and am on regularly if you wish to chat. I understand that the DPS/Range scaling isn't ALL their is to balance, but as far as I'm concerned, it most definitely is the most important.
Furthermore things such as reload time, etc can be tweaked to not effect balance entirely.
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
|
Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3033
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 11:13:00 -
[63] - Quote
Dalton Smithe wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:Dalton Smithe wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote: Officially, huh? So many people using a bad weapon doing so well. Thank goodness they aren't using a good weapon.
Well it has the second lowest Assault Rifle DPS and a grand total of 6m extra range over the gallante. -33 DPS +6m Range -17 DPS +6m Range (including Damage Profile) while on the other hand ARR -50 DPS +30m Range AScR -33 DPS +12m Range Literally the only thing the Assault Combat Rifle has going for it is a broken damage profile. Which as you will probably realize is omitted from the graph. You are forgetting other factors that reduce a weapons effectiveness. Simply putting a range/dps model up there an calling weapons good or bad is not the way to go. Accuracy, falloff, everything needs to be taken into account.... As you will see in the graph (assuming falloff is linear), this is taken care of. The Assault Rifles still out DPS the Breach Rifles for a decent amount of time. In the Balanced version (assuming projectile profile is changed to match explosive) The minmatar and Amarr are ALWAYS the best race per variant when taking on Armour or Shield only tanked suits respectively. While the gallante and caldari work best when the ratio of tank is closer to 50% Burst weapons only start outclassing assaults when used upon the correct tank type and a decent profiency level. Since the Difference in range and DPS between races is negligible, popularity is swayed less by which has the best DPS/pm value and which one suits the player best. Furthermore it suits the lore better without turning it into spreadsheets and auto-fire Although this is pretty much closed to balance(as per rattati) you still only put a DPS/range model up there. You didn't take into account dispersion, accuracy of each weapon ect. To be honest your evaluation of rifles is limited at best. The combat rifle(even though the values posted in game state otherwise) can out DPS most other rifles. I have, on numerous occasions, been fighting people sporting combat rifles, while I have switched tactics, using rail rifles or assault, they repeatedly whittle me down....
You will actually see that my graph shows this, the Burst Variant Combat Rifle can reach about 500 DPS, when fired at full auto which it is more than capable of doing.
Pair this with Damage Profile effectively giving a 5% boost and it's easy to see the problem. The Combat Rifles burst is too fast, it needs to be brought down to about 4 bursts a second (12 shots) and taken from there.
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
|
Eldurian Invictus
Namtar Elite Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 11:25:00 -
[64] - Quote
If I could change 1 thing about rifles I would say give ARsthe scope their model already displays. Those damn iron sights are annoying. |
Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1204
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 15:06:00 -
[65] - Quote
Temias Mercurial wrote:Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:Temias Mercurial wrote:Thanks for the reply , but the rail gun projectile is not really physical, it's a electromagnetic round fired through a series of rails on the rifle (hence the name). Is there anything that could affect the increase of velocity and/or kinetic damage over a set distance? Maybe a magnetic attraction to dropsuits? Let's say that the projectile is already traveling at a great speed, so up close the magnetic attraction has no additive to damage, but at a distance, if accurate, can potentially increase damage output. Thoughts? The round itself isn't electromagnetic. Basically a rail weapon uses electromagnets to impel a ferrous metal penetrator (usually something that looks like a small dart or perhaps pellet) at hyper velocities. Basic physics...you can't gain speed and or kinetic force without continued propulsion. I've done a little bit of work with the applied sciences facet of rail weapons in my day job a while back. Yes, but do we really know for certain that the projectile is indeed a solid object when the technology spans 20 thousand years into the future, and in a different galaxy that potentially has different elements and properties? Although rail guns are based of our current technology and concept, it could be vastly different in the future. Hypothetically, our known physics can not apply to this technology. We have clones that transfer their conscience into another body upon death... practical immortality. Everything of which we know and understand could be completely invalid in the concept of this universe, or is vastly shadowed by how little our knowledge is in comparison. For all we know, the 'projectile' could indeed gain velocity and kinetic force from unknown properties far beyond our current understanding. On another note, what if the projectile had a second fire or function that goes off after a set distance or time to achieve maximum results? Setting it off too early could result in damaging the firing mechanism, rifle, and user.
The science fiction part of the discussion aside i actually like the idea of the charge shot function. You could have a weapon that has a similar mechanic as the SCR with some tweaks:
1) remove the charge up time per shot.
2) Normal firing mode would give you current (or even perhaps slightly less DPS) than it does now.
3) Charge shot scales damage up dramatically and give moderate increase to optimal range.
4) Once the charge shot is fired it "dumps" all energy stored in the capacitor...inducing a serious penalty (5 sec) before you can either A) fire normally, or B) begin charging for another shot
5) Note...the charge shot mechanic should work similar to the rail turret charge so that if you balk on the trigger (i.e. let off prior to charge you incur the charge penalty).
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
|
David Spd
Caldari State
140
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 18:50:00 -
[66] - Quote
In my opinion this thread has gone off the deep end of science and logic.
In the end of the day, Dust 514 is fiction. And it is a video game.
Video games are intended to be fun, and logic (and oftentimes scientific accuracy) are usually a secondary objective.
On the subject of weapons & suits I don't have any hard numbers or graphs to show, but as someone who's been playing Caldari Assault since CB and used Rail Rifles since their release, I have a hard time finding the justification for the opinion on nerfing them.
Caldari themselves are all ready having a hard time with their low armor and shields being rather unreliable. If hotfix Charlie changes Assault suits and/or shield modules to be able to stand toe to toe with the other races then I can see bringing down the power level or effectiveness of the Rail Rifles.
But as it currently stands I think the problem with Rail Rifles isn't actually the gun itself, but the ability to fit it on any other suit. I think for Caldari (which I find to be the "glass cannon" race) it makes sense. High damage output but fragile defenses. High risk, high reward type gameplay. If consensus is that the Rail Rifle needs to be nerfed further... I would like to ask that something get touched that can be lessened by racial investment.
I am a strong believer in using your race's equipment, but I realize that there aren't any hard restrictions. I think that equipment (especially weaponry) should really shine in the hands of a user it was made for (suit manufacturer and racial training/experience). I don't think it's right to further push Caldari out of the front lines by bringing the gun's power level down.
Again I'll reiterate that I think if the gun "needs" to be nerfed, then it needs to be nerfed in a way that makes it less effective in the hands of anybody but Caldari specialized fittings.
Somewhat off-topic: I personally don't think (under normal circumstances) a Caldari soldier of any kind should be in the frontline. The combination of the weapons and suit don't mesh well with that type of playstyle in my experience. The spool time and reload has gotten me killed more often than I'd like to admit, and while I can't really say the gun is "balanced", I DO think that it should be powerful in the right hands.
--> I'm a closed beta vet; I just don't post often <--
"Other people just complicate my life." ~Solid Snake
|
Greiv Rabbah
KiLo.
11
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 20:02:00 -
[67] - Quote
Regarding the rifles, I think
Assault rifle - close range shredding in gallente style. High ROF in line with assault weapons Combat rifle - short range burst spraying shards of metal like a Minmatar gun should. Low damage handled by a high ROF balancing it for burst combat. Scrambler rifle - mid range tactical rifle breaks down enemy shields rapidly as expected of a Minmatar gun. High damage managed by low ROF let's this gun pierce through a lined up target. Rail rifle - long range breach rifle for caldari hit and run assault. The low ROF on this rifle compared with the high range and damage make this rifle excel as a breach weapon, piercing to and through armor while outdistancing the other rifles.
Here the 4 races, 4 rifles, 4 damage types, and 4 attack types all seem to me to fall into place in a very balanced and somewhat niche way(that's good!)
Instead I would query the pistols(Minmatar pistol is a joke), the classes(still lacking a light class...) Overall weapons parity(Amarr grenades?) Or full racial parity(vehicles... Like Minmatar ones... And MTACs) surely there is good work in all these areas to be done or how about restoring previous vehicles? Crying rifles for hotfix charlie when they've had so much work done and so much else needs so much work is just being a baby. I'm sorry you got hit with a rail rifle; get behind cover. |
Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3036
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 21:57:00 -
[68] - Quote
Greiv Rabbah wrote:Regarding the rifles, I think
Assault rifle - close range shredding in gallente style. High ROF in line with assault weapons Combat rifle - short range burst spraying shards of metal like a Minmatar gun should. Low damage handled by a high ROF balancing it for burst combat. Scrambler rifle - mid range tactical rifle breaks down enemy shields rapidly as expected of a Minmatar gun. High damage managed by low ROF let's this gun pierce through a lined up target. Rail rifle - long range breach rifle for caldari hit and run assault. The low ROF on this rifle compared with the high range and damage make this rifle excel as a breach weapon, piercing to and through armor while outdistancing the other rifles.
Here the 4 races, 4 rifles, 4 damage types, and 4 attack types all seem to me to fall into place in a very balanced and somewhat niche way(that's good!)
Instead I would query the pistols(Minmatar pistol is a joke), the classes(still lacking a light class...) Overall weapons parity(Amarr grenades?) Or full racial parity(vehicles... Like Minmatar ones... And MTACs) surely there is good work in all these areas to be done or how about restoring previous vehicles? Crying rifles for hotfix charlie when they've had so much work done and so much else needs so much work is just being a baby. I'm sorry you got hit with a rail rifle; get behind cover.
But you see then are a few things are no lomger taken into account. 1) Damage Profile - if each race only has 1 range what difference does damage profile do other than to marganilse specific weapons? My choice of damage profile should effect my chances as much as my range does.
2) Racial Range Variety - It's all well amd good saying all RR's should have long range, but there are more chareristics that are more important to the rifle, you need to allow each race to have a good variety, otherwise people just won't use specific weapons.
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
|
Greiv Rabbah
KiLo.
11
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 12:25:00 -
[69] - Quote
Quote stuff:
But you see then are a few things are no lomger taken into account. 1) Damage Profile - if each race only has 1 range what difference does damage profile do other than to marganilse specific weapons? My choice of damage profile should effect my chances as much as my range does.
They don't and shouldn'teach have one range. Differing weapons should and do have different range classes ie the bolt pistol has way way closer effective range than the sniper rifle, and it should although theyre both rail gun and long range for their weapon class. And as far as confining people to ranges by race look at shotgun>mass driver>laser rifle>sniper rifle and those ranges are completely forced with those weapons... Yet it isn't a problem. Outside the shotguns range the ion pistol is powerful moving into the assault rifle range through burst qnd tactical up to breach ar, and for ranges beyond that, there is plasma cannon. Remotes flaylock smg hmg combat rifle mass driver. Assault scrambler pistol, scrambler pistol, burst scrambler pistol, breach scrambler pistol, assault scrambler rifle, scrambler rifle, laser rifle. Bolt pistol magsec swarm launcher rail rifle forge gun sniper rifle... At which ranges exactly does a race not have a damage type represented? However gallente should eat caldari at close range amd gallente should get picked off easier from a distance and pairing shotgun vs bolt pistol or plasma cannon vs sniper rifle reveals this to be true and working well
2) Racial Range Variety - It's all well amd good saying all RR's should have long range, but there are more chareristics that are more important to the rifle, you need to allow each race to have a good variety, otherwise people just won't use specific weapons. You may be right but thats not even a problem. Sure I don't use a rail rifle more than I use a breach assault rifle, but plenty of others do and they tear up shotgunner from afar or get eaten up by them up close as it should be. I think its too effective at close range, but when I use it I see it handles very poorly up close and when I think to cry about it I button my lip instead and just play |
Finn Colman
Immortal Guides
25
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 17:24:00 -
[70] - Quote
General12912 wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Thanks for the feedback, but we are not touching Rifles in the short term. Our data and forums are in agreement that rifles have never been as balanced as they are currently. If that changes, we will come to the forums for feedback. Right now, there are many things we want to tweak and fix that have higher priority. then my feelings are true. and the rifles are extremely balanced. this just confirms what ive been trying to tell people all along. It really doesn't mean much that there are higher priority problems... |
|
Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3042
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 18:23:00 -
[71] - Quote
Greiv Rabbah wrote:Quote stuff:
But you see then are a few things are no lomger taken into account. 1) Damage Profile - if each race only has 1 range what difference does damage profile do other than to marganilse specific weapons? My choice of damage profile should effect my chances as much as my range does.
They don't and shouldn'teach have one range. Differing weapons should and do have different range classes ie the bolt pistol has way way closer effective range than the sniper rifle, and it should although theyre both rail gun and long range for their weapon class. And as far as confining people to ranges by race look at shotgun>mass driver>laser rifle>sniper rifle and those ranges are completely forced with those weapons... Yet it isn't a problem. Outside the shotguns range the ion pistol is powerful moving into the assault rifle range through burst qnd tactical up to breach ar, and for ranges beyond that, there is plasma cannon. Remotes flaylock smg hmg combat rifle mass driver. Assault scrambler pistol, scrambler pistol, burst scrambler pistol, breach scrambler pistol, assault scrambler rifle, scrambler rifle, laser rifle. Bolt pistol magsec swarm launcher rail rifle forge gun sniper rifle... At which ranges exactly does a race not have a damage type represented? However gallente should eat caldari at close range amd gallente should get picked off easier from a distance and pairing shotgun vs bolt pistol or plasma cannon vs sniper rifle reveals this to be true and working well
2) Racial Range Variety - It's all well amd good saying all RR's should have long range, but there are more chareristics that are more important to the rifle, you need to allow each race to have a good variety, otherwise people just won't use specific weapons. You may be right but thats not even a problem. Sure I don't use a rail rifle more than I use a breach assault rifle, but plenty of others do and they tear up shotgunner from afar or get eaten up by them up close as it should be. I think its too effective at close range, but when I use it I see it handles very poorly up close and when I think to cry about it I button my lip instead and just play
You and I seem to be from the same hymn sheet, but at different ends. Furthermore you have very conflicting opinions within your own arguement.
||And as far as confining people to ranges by race look at shotgun>mass driver>laser rifle>sniper rifle and those ranges are completely forced with those weapons... Yet it isn't a problem.|| The Plasma Cannon and the Mass Driver both belong in the launcher category along side the Swarm Launcher, yet Minmatar AV has as of yet not been precluded from Legion. The prescision rifle (A minmatar sniper rifle) has been in conceptual design for as long as I can remember, this has also not been procluded from Legion.
The Current Gallante Shotgun, Minmatar AOE, Amarr Laser and Caldari Sniper Rifle are simply archetypes, they are the orginals. Much like the AR was back when it was the only rifle you could have.
||They don't and Shouldn't each have one range|| No, they shouldn't, that's what my entire reply was getting at. So I will ask you a simple question. If I have a long range Gallante Rifle (like the TACAR) does it make sense that a short range Caldari Rifle (like the ARR) should outrange it?
If you said yes, then you are saying each race should have a specific (or unique range of ) range(s), if you said no then you are saying each variant rifle should have a specific (or unique range of) ranges(s).
In the first instance, all gallante rifles become effectively short range, this creates a problem since your damage profile remains constant your enemies simply choose armour based suits (such as amarr) with armour based weapons (such as minmatar, which also outrange you) suddenly no matter how close you get to them you will be out DPS'd not because you made a bad choice in rifle, but a bad choice in race.
In the second instance, you can go close range still, but now you have 4 races and their associated profiles, styles, positives and weaknesses. The fact you are using a short range rifle does not mean you are weak to any particular tank type any more as a collection of weapons, instead you are weak to particular ranges.
Like I said, you are singing from the same hymn book, you just aren't quite on the same page.
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
|
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
10738
|
Posted - 2014.07.09 06:14:00 -
[72] - Quote
The Assault Combat Rifle has excellent hip fire accuracy, quick reloads, best damage profile and zero recoil. It's fire rate of 1200RPM also gives it the chainsaw effect, where you can swipe over an enemy and still do a considerable amount of damage, which is very useful in CQC.
There are more values than DPS to consider.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
|
Tora Kiri
G.L.O.R.Y Dark Taboo
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.03 14:13:00 -
[73] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:The Assault Combat Rifle has excellent hip fire accuracy, quick reloads, best damage profile and zero recoil. It's fire rate of 1200RPM also gives it the chainsaw effect, where you can swipe over an enemy and still do a considerable amount of damage, which is very useful in CQC.
There are more values than DPS to consider. I use a caldari commando, i look for the highest point in that i can utilize my optimal range and **** clones that want to run in the open and and try to out dps me, lol and then they complain about the range and damage, lol why they don't just use cover, i don't complain when a shout gun scout uncloak behind me and drop me in 2 shoots or i turn a corner and run into a heavy with an hmg, every weapon and suite has it advantage and disadvantage learn your weapon learn the weapons learn the drop suite learn the game.
|
Maiden selena MORTIMOR
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
57
|
Posted - 2014.08.03 14:27:00 -
[74] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Thanks for the feedback, but we are not touching Rifles in the short term. Our data and forums are in agreement that rifles have never been as balanced as they are currently. If that changes, we will come to the forums for feedback. Right now, there are many things we want to tweak and fix that have higher priority. From the point of view of a laser rifle user I agree with you completely ..2 years I have used my rifle through the op and up and now finally I feel a touch of balance in my matches. they don't need to touch rifles best leave them alone ..before u muck it up by accident and take a look at the side arms as u plan...keep up the recent good work
no im not a mortedeamor alt..im her slave
When my master is banned I represent her wishes and that of the Mortimor famil
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 [3] :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |