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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1193
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Posted - 2014.07.06 07:07:00 -
[1] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Temias Mercurial wrote:I still think that the rail rifle should have an effect similar to the laser rifle's close up reduced damage, as it's suppose to be a long range weapon, but is still ludicrously good at CQC due to it's damage output. That's exactly what I wrote in my notes not 2 hours ago. Please don't, I always found it to be such a counter-intuitive mechanic on the laser rifle, don't do it to the rail rifle. If changes are needed, I would suggest looking at DPS.
Kage...I partially agree.
It is a counter-intuitive mechanic, no question with that.
My concern is that if you lower the DPS even further (it's already the lowest of the standard rifles) it quickly gets unable to kill at range either.
The path is very narrow to make the RR acceptable to those who get killed by it often and making it pretty useless.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1193
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 07:49:00 -
[2] - Quote
Ok...rail rifles. Again.
This is a tough discussion and I admittedly come at it from pretty dedicated RR user perspective. I am, however, interested everyone enjoying a balanced game.
Let's a take a quick look at the RR from the perspective of someone that uses it or the assault variant fairly exclusively.
1) Lowest DPS of racial rifles. That's pretty legit when compared to the range...no major issues with that. That said, with the DPS at this point it's pretty close to not being useful at longer rangers as its very easy to duck out of the way or get behind cover before taking terminal damage.
2) Charge time. This is oft argued back and forth with little positive headway. Many say the charge time is so negligible that it doesn't matter, people flutter the trigger, or pre-fire takes care of everything. My general response is that if it's such non-factor then remove it from the weapon or you could have a similar charge time penalty that you get on rail turrets when you "game" the spool time. I would also point out that this is the only major weapon drawback that doesn't have an SP sink or Racial Role bonus to offset it.
3) Hip fire vs ADS. One thing that hasn't been touched yet is the hip fire; this might help quite a bit if the hip fire was toned done noticeable. You can just about weave between shots with the low RoF and a cut in hip fire accuracy might be just the thing in order.
4) Mag size and reload time. These really are secondary factors but not something to overlook either. Lowest reload time and mag capacity for racial LW but you can offset these combat efficiency gaps with the weapons skill SP sinks. Again...shortcoming that can be mitigated with SP which is a basic positive theme.
5) Comparison to Laser Rifle. The Laser Rifle isn't counted as a basic racial rifle as far as I can tell so the direct comparisons may be a bit off. The similar range profiles is what generally draw the comparisons and conceptually the increasing damage overtime with a laser works very well. I would also concur with one of the earlier posters that "you can melt heavies" as I've witnessed some good LR users do just that. There is no real logical way to adjust a kinetic penetrator's damage profile to having less impact closer than it does at longer range and frankly there are other things to tweak outside of that.
6) Caldari Weapons kit bag. This kinda goes at the heart of it to me...if you make the RR too niche (and my opinion is that it can very easily drift that way) is that you leave a racial line without any kind of general purpose weapon. The short answer its that it doesn't make sense to do that without some built in off-set. Lot's of folks rightly point out that the Cal method relies on dealing damage at range...no issue with that; the thing people forget is to take an objective in game or conceptually from a lore stand point you still have to close the tactical gap and you shouldn't be too gimped. A CalLogi actually trying to run a support set up you can quickly be at a level of disadvantage that is a bit much.
My proposal to that is to actually make the ARR (or perhaps the MagSec) the viable option in mid-range combat and keep relevance in shorter combat ranges. For the ARR noticably cut the range down, keep RoF, and consider cutting the charge time a bit. I recommend changing the Operation skill to reducing the spool time and dropping the recoil reduction.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
|
Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1195
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 13:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Temias Mercurial wrote:I still think that the rail rifle should have an effect similar to the laser rifle's close up reduced damage, as it's suppose to be a long range weapon, but is still ludicrously good at CQC due to it's damage output. That's exactly what I wrote in my notes not 2 hours ago. Please don't, I always found it to be such a counter-intuitive mechanic on the laser rifle, don't do it to the rail rifle. If changes are needed, I would suggest looking at DPS. Kage...I partially agree. It is a counter-intuitive mechanic, no question with that. My concern is that if you lower the DPS even further (it's already the lowest of the standard rifles) it quickly gets unable to kill at range either. The path is very narrow to make the RR acceptable to those who get killed by it often and making it pretty useless. I'm not even sure if the RR even needs a nerf at all, though if it does then I think something like more kick and spread while NOT aiming down sight could also be an alternative.
That's basically my stance as well.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
|
Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1195
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 13:53:00 -
[4] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:Ok...rail rifles. Again.
This is a tough discussion and I admittedly come at it from pretty dedicated RR user perspective. I am, however, interested everyone enjoying a balanced game.
Let's a take a quick look at the RR from the perspective of someone that uses it or the assault variant fairly exclusively.
1) Lowest DPS of racial rifles. That's pretty legit when compared to the range...no major issues with that. That said, with the DPS at this point it's pretty close to not being useful at longer rangers as its very easy to duck out of the way or get behind cover before taking terminal damage.
2) Charge time. This is oft argued back and forth with little positive headway. Many say the charge time is so negligible that it doesn't matter, people flutter the trigger, or pre-fire takes care of everything. My general response is that if it's such non-factor then remove it from the weapon or you could have a similar charge time penalty that you get on rail turrets when you "game" the spool time. I would also point out that this is the only major weapon drawback that doesn't have an SP sink or Racial Role bonus to offset it.
3) Hip fire vs ADS. One thing that hasn't been touched yet is the hip fire; this might help quite a bit if the hip fire was toned done noticeable. You can just about weave between shots with the low RoF and a cut in hip fire accuracy might be just the thing in order.
4) Mag size and reload time. These really are secondary factors but not something to overlook either. Lowest reload time and mag capacity for racial LW but you can offset these combat efficiency gaps with the weapons skill SP sinks. Again...shortcoming that can be mitigated with SP which is a basic positive theme.
5) Comparison to Laser Rifle. The Laser Rifle isn't counted as a basic racial rifle as far as I can tell so the direct comparisons may be a bit off. The similar range profiles is what generally draw the comparisons and conceptually the increasing damage overtime with a laser works very well. I would also concur with one of the earlier posters that "you can melt heavies" as I've witnessed some good LR users do just that. There is no real logical way to adjust a kinetic penetrator's damage profile to having less impact closer than it does at longer range and frankly there are other things to tweak outside of that.
6) Caldari Weapons kit bag. This kinda goes at the heart of it to me...if you make the RR too niche (and my opinion is that it can very easily drift that way) is that you leave a racial line without any kind of general purpose weapon. The short answer its that it doesn't make sense to do that without some built in off-set. Lot's of folks rightly point out that the Cal method relies on dealing damage at range...no issue with that; the thing people forget is to take an objective in game or conceptually from a lore stand point you still have to close the tactical gap and you shouldn't be too gimped. A CalLogi actually trying to run a support set up you can quickly be at a level of disadvantage that is a bit much.
My proposal to that is to actually make the ARR (or perhaps the MagSec) the viable option in mid-range combat and keep relevance in shorter combat ranges. For the ARR noticably cut the range down, keep RoF, and consider cutting the charge time a bit. I recommend changing the Operation skill to reducing the spool time and dropping the recoil reduction. The charge time is considered negligible because of 1) The already short time of RR reload 2) The Caldari Assault Bonus Whe these stack the reload which often comprises other weapons, does not comprimise the RR, instead the charge time does. Ot requires skill to when and where to stop amd start firing, but in short the RR works best when fired continously. You will notice in my graph the caldari will most definitely have general purpose weapons. The DPS of the Breach RR is only mildly lower than its current (but it gets a range increase) it out DPS's the Assault Rifles at about 50m , excluding changes to accuracy, but it also has a shorter range version in the ARR. This is the problem with the current state of rifles they only 'feel' balanced because we only use a few select rifles.
Monkey...a few points:
1) I believe the reload time on the Rail Rifle is the longest of any light weapon...you say it's already "short".
2) The Cal Assault bonus again has nothing to do with charge time so I'm confused at why you bring it up in that context.
3) The graphs - Tthere is no such thing as a "Breach" Rail Rifle; took me a minute to cypher through that and I'm really not seeing where you got the DPS value for the RR on the first graph (or perhaps I'm just having difficult time reading it). It also appears to me that your graph may not be accounting for the DPS degradation from the charge mechanic.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
|
Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1199
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 05:50:00 -
[5] - Quote
Temias Mercurial wrote:Thanks for the reply  , but the rail gun projectile is not really physical, it's a electromagnetic round fired through a series of rails on the rifle (hence the name). Is there anything that could affect the increase of velocity and/or kinetic damage over a set distance? Maybe a magnetic attraction to dropsuits? Let's say that the projectile is already traveling at a great speed, so up close the magnetic attraction has no additive to damage, but at a distance, if accurate, can potentially increase damage output. Thoughts?
The round itself isn't electromagnetic. Basically a rail weapon uses electromagnets to impel a ferrous metal penetrator (usually something that looks like a small dart or perhaps pellet) at hyper velocities. Basic physics...you can't gain speed and or kinetic force without continued propulsion.
I've done a little bit of work with the applied sciences facet of rail weapons in my day job a while back.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
|
Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1199
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 05:53:00 -
[6] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:To be honest, I think the rail rifle is better served as a tactical rifle instead of a breach. Caldari are all about making each shot count, and the tactical rifle does that perfectly. It also has a charge up on it already. All we have to do is change the charge to be like the charge sniper rifle. Give it more range than it has now, perhaps out to 90m. Give it more damage so that it can kill a medium suit in about 3-4 shots.
It turns it into a mini sniper rifle almost, forcing you to pick your shots and try and keep your range advantage, while its counter is getting in close, where the other rifles deal higher DPs and have an easier time landing hits in close quarters.
I've said similar in other posts so I would be willing to explore that.
My follow up question is what would you do with the rest of the Cal weapon line to give the Caldari a competitive chance as they close the gap to secure objectives or the inevitable CQC fight?
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
|
Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1199
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 06:00:00 -
[7] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:
Because as the reload time gets shorter, the charge time remains constant.
Charge + TTE + Reload == TTE + Reload
The charge basically move the DPS loss from reloading to the front. If you see what I mean, therefore shortening the caldari reload offsets the drawbacks of the charge.
The Breach Rail Rifle and the Rail Rifle are the same thing, it is categorised as a breach weapon, as the combat is a burst amd the scrambler a tac. It's just easier to refer to it as a breach to show it is meant to be long range.
Sorry, MAC...you're losing me with your formula.
The reality is that it just doesn't play out that way in live play.
1) You can't take the weapons at their min / max, i.e. only in the hands of assaults, to get the full picture.
2) There is no clear exchange of DPS loss from Charge to Reload. Reload speed even on a max skilled and proto Cal Assault isn't "zero".
I would be more than happy to squad up and talk through my thoughts on this and I would be interested in hearing you describe your rubric.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
|
Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1204
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 15:06:00 -
[8] - Quote
Temias Mercurial wrote:Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:Temias Mercurial wrote:Thanks for the reply , but the rail gun projectile is not really physical, it's a electromagnetic round fired through a series of rails on the rifle (hence the name). Is there anything that could affect the increase of velocity and/or kinetic damage over a set distance? Maybe a magnetic attraction to dropsuits? Let's say that the projectile is already traveling at a great speed, so up close the magnetic attraction has no additive to damage, but at a distance, if accurate, can potentially increase damage output. Thoughts? The round itself isn't electromagnetic. Basically a rail weapon uses electromagnets to impel a ferrous metal penetrator (usually something that looks like a small dart or perhaps pellet) at hyper velocities. Basic physics...you can't gain speed and or kinetic force without continued propulsion. I've done a little bit of work with the applied sciences facet of rail weapons in my day job a while back. Yes, but do we really know for certain that the projectile is indeed a solid object when the technology spans 20 thousand years into the future, and in a different galaxy that potentially has different elements and properties? Although rail guns are based of our current technology and concept, it could be vastly different in the future. Hypothetically, our known physics can not apply to this technology. We have clones that transfer their conscience into another body upon death... practical immortality. Everything of which we know and understand could be completely invalid in the concept of this universe, or is vastly shadowed by how little our knowledge is in comparison. For all we know, the 'projectile' could indeed gain velocity and kinetic force from unknown properties far beyond our current understanding. On another note, what if the projectile had a second fire or function that goes off after a set distance or time to achieve maximum results? Setting it off too early could result in damaging the firing mechanism, rifle, and user.
The science fiction part of the discussion aside i actually like the idea of the charge shot function. You could have a weapon that has a similar mechanic as the SCR with some tweaks:
1) remove the charge up time per shot.
2) Normal firing mode would give you current (or even perhaps slightly less DPS) than it does now.
3) Charge shot scales damage up dramatically and give moderate increase to optimal range.
4) Once the charge shot is fired it "dumps" all energy stored in the capacitor...inducing a serious penalty (5 sec) before you can either A) fire normally, or B) begin charging for another shot
5) Note...the charge shot mechanic should work similar to the rail turret charge so that if you balk on the trigger (i.e. let off prior to charge you incur the charge penalty).
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
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