DUST Search - Hotfix Charlie - Completely Balancing the Rifles

Vitharr Foebane wrote:

Monkey MAC wrote:

Ralden Caster wrote:

Baal Omniscient wrote:

Also, point: In order to keep overall balance, the HMG will need to be adjusted along with the rifles.

If these changes were to be put into effect, the HMG range needs to be dropped to "close" status. HMG's dispersion is not enough to reduce it's effectiveness at "short" range. Assault variant rifles should be able to out DPS an HMG at the edge of it's optimal, and it can't do that when after 1 second of firing the HMG's spread has shrunk enough to hit you with almost every bullet. That, or instead of getting a tighter spread the longer it fires, it should get wider the more you shoot (as any person thinking about it logically would have made it from the start) making it less effective at range unless you fire in bursts. Also, if this happens, the time it takes for the circular crosshairs to change from full size to normal size should be around 2 seconds and the crosshair should start at about half it's current size to allow for expansion.

The HMG is supposed to be able to shred you. Heavies are the staple of defense and should require more effort to take down. If heavies could chase you down easily and jump heights higher than their kneecaps, then we could talk.

The HMG will still shred, it's just the AR will be capable of out ranging it.

It already out ranges it though...

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Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2967	Posted - 2014.07.02 14:26:00 - [1] - Quote https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B42cvyl4BvAfUDcwTFYxZnFZVHc&usp=drive_web Above is a graph. This graph shows the dire straits the rifles are in, each line represents one of the rifles by comparison of it's DPs vs Range. As you can see, there is little to no order when you look at them. 1) The Burst Blaster Rifle has the lowest DPS and the lowest Range, it is officially the worst rifle, period. 2) The Combat Rifle is officially the worst Assault Variant Rifle 3) The Tactical Rifles have the highest possible DPS, however it is worth noting that these DPS's are the absolute Maximum and are not necessarily achievable. 4) The Rail Rifles has excessively high range, yet they still have highly competitive DPS This information was soucrced from the following locations 1) The Ranges were sourced from the 1.7 dev blog about rifles to my knowledge these ranges are still valid. 2) The DPS values are sourced from protofits.com So there are two ways the rifles can be balanced. We start by creating 6 finite ranges. Close Quarters < 20m Short Range 20m - 40m Short - Medium Range 40m - 60m Medium - Long Range 60m - 80m Long Range 80m - 100m Extreme Range > 100m 1) Each Variant has a preferred Range Assault Rifles : Short Range Burst Rifles : Short - Medium Range Tactical Rifles : Medium - Long Range Breach Rifles : Long Range In each variant the Gallante has the Highest DPS and the Lowest Range, while the Caldari have the longest range but lowest DPS. Make both DPS and Range step uniformly between each rifle. 2) Each Race has a preferred Range Gallante: Short Range Minmatar : Short - Medium Range Amarr : Medium - Long Range Caldari : Long Range In each case, the Assault Variant has the lowest range but highest DPS, while the breach has the longest range but lowest DPS. Make both DPS and Range step uniformly between each rifle. Personally I am in preference of option 1, because this allows the difference between the races to be more prominent in each variant. My suit's a bit rusty, but that could just as easily be me! Monkey Mac - Swinging from the Rooftops Forum Warrior Lvl2
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2328	Posted - 2014.07.02 14:57:00 - [2] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: The Combat Rifle is officially the worst Assault Variant Rifle LMAO Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2968	Posted - 2014.07.02 15:27:00 - [3] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: The Combat Rifle is officially the worst Assault Variant Rifle Officially, huh? So many people using a bad weapon doing so well. Thank goodness they aren't using a good weapon. Well it has the second lowest Assault Rifle DPS and a grand total of 6m extra range over the gallante. -33 DPS +6m Range -17 DPS +6m Range (including Damage Profile) while on the other hand ARR -50 DPS +30m Range AScR -33 DPS +12m Range Literally the only thing the Assault Combat Rifle has going for it is a broken damage profile. Which as you will probably realize is omitted from the graph. My suit's a bit rusty, but that could just as easily be me! Monkey Mac - Swinging from the Rooftops Forum Warrior Lvl2
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2968	Posted - 2014.07.02 15:28:00 - [4] - Quote Unbalanced: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oQQ9DSTVq-tvOhZDXICz63PmZcHcvJqntya_gTri-50/edit?usp=sharing Balanced: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OYGYch9cUVaM9jX06BTUC9pc5LY8w6wrtQHjMKn6z5w/edit?usp=sharing My suit's a bit rusty, but that could just as easily be me! Monkey Mac - Swinging from the Rooftops Forum Warrior Lvl2
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 597	Posted - 2014.07.02 16:22:00 - [5] - Quote I agree that your option 1 is the better solution, and I would be behind this fix wholeheartedly.
Paran Tadec The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 2145	Posted - 2014.07.02 19:03:00 - [6] - Quote Stop trying to make sense. Nothing makes sense here. You're being unreasonable. ............ Bittervet Proficiency V thanks logibro!
Baal Omniscient Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1879	Posted - 2014.07.02 19:12:00 - [7] - Quote Signed. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1 Winmatar Assault & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0
Zindorak CaUsE-4-CoNcErN 35	Posted - 2014.07.02 21:02:00 - [8] - Quote This is genius! Im in favor for option one
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2973	Posted - 2014.07.02 21:54:00 - [9] - Quote Please let this information be spread! More people understand just what a calamity the rifles are in. It's because of this that we cam even begin to balance anything else. My suit's a bit rusty, but that could just as easily be me! Monkey Mac - Swinging from the Rooftops Forum Warrior Lvl2
Baal Omniscient Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1882	Posted - 2014.07.02 22:09:00 - [10] - Quote Also, point: In order to keep overall balance, the HMG will need to be adjusted along with the rifles. If these changes were to be put into effect, the HMG range needs to be dropped to "close" status. HMG's dispersion is not enough to reduce it's effectiveness at "short" range. Assault variant rifles should be able to out DPS an HMG at the edge of it's optimal, and it can't do that when after 1 second of firing the HMG's spread has shrunk enough to hit you with almost every bullet. That, or instead of getting a tighter spread the longer it fires, it should get wider the more you shoot (as any person thinking about it logically would have made it from the start) making it less effective at range unless you fire in bursts. Also, if this happens, the time it takes for the circular crosshairs to change from full size to normal size should be around 2 seconds and the crosshair should start at about half it's current size to allow for expansion. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1 Winmatar Assault & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0

Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2975	Posted - 2014.07.02 22:28:00 - [11] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: Also, point: In order to keep overall balance, the HMG will need to be adjusted along with the rifles. If these changes were to be put into effect, the HMG range needs to be dropped to "close" status. HMG's dispersion is not enough to reduce it's effectiveness at "short" range. Assault variant rifles should be able to out DPS an HMG at the edge of it's optimal, and it can't do that when after 1 second of firing the HMG's spread has shrunk enough to hit you with almost every bullet. That, or instead of getting a tighter spread the longer it fires, it should get wider the more you shoot (as any person thinking about it logically would have made it from the start) making it less effective at range unless you fire in bursts. Also, if this happens, the time it takes for the circular crosshairs to change from full size to normal size should be around 2 seconds and the crosshair should start at about half it's current size to allow for expansion. Yes the HMG would indeed also need to re balanced. In the graphs I have shown the ABR ends up with a slight range nerf, so yeah the HMG would need a 'nerf' as well. But by the time they are completly balanced they will, all still feel right! My suit's a bit rusty, but that could just as easily be me! Monkey Mac - Swinging from the Rooftops Forum Warrior Lvl2
Dalton Smithe OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 100	Posted - 2014.07.02 22:34:00 - [12] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: The Combat Rifle is officially the worst Assault Variant Rifle Officially, huh? So many people using a bad weapon doing so well. Thank goodness they aren't using a good weapon. Well it has the second lowest Assault Rifle DPS and a grand total of 6m extra range over the gallante. -33 DPS +6m Range -17 DPS +6m Range (including Damage Profile) while on the other hand ARR -50 DPS +30m Range AScR -33 DPS +12m Range Literally the only thing the Assault Combat Rifle has going for it is a broken damage profile. Which as you will probably realize is omitted from the graph. You are forgetting other factors that reduce a weapons effectiveness. Simply putting a range/dps model up there an calling weapons good or bad is not the way to go. Accuracy, falloff, everything needs to be taken into account....
Bojo The Mighty Spaceman Drug Cartel-Uno 3947	Posted - 2014.07.02 22:39:00 - [13] - Quote I'm sick of rifle changes Let's shift focus off rifles for a while and let other toys get recognition BTW AR's are fine now especially TAR and BuAR and BrAR BrAR could use a RoF tune down, damage tune up if anything. Smell the burning flesh. Taste the tangy sulfur air. Volcano Season - Moltar's Haiku : SGC2C
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2975	Posted - 2014.07.02 23:01:00 - [14] - Quote Dalton Smithe wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: The Combat Rifle is officially the worst Assault Variant Rifle Officially, huh? So many people using a bad weapon doing so well. Thank goodness they aren't using a good weapon. Well it has the second lowest Assault Rifle DPS and a grand total of 6m extra range over the gallante. -33 DPS +6m Range -17 DPS +6m Range (including Damage Profile) while on the other hand ARR -50 DPS +30m Range AScR -33 DPS +12m Range Literally the only thing the Assault Combat Rifle has going for it is a broken damage profile. Which as you will probably realize is omitted from the graph. You are forgetting other factors that reduce a weapons effectiveness. Simply putting a range/dps model up there an calling weapons good or bad is not the way to go. Accuracy, falloff, everything needs to be taken into account.... As you will see in the graph (assuming falloff is linear), this is taken care of. The Assault Rifles still out DPS the Breach Rifles for a decent amount of time. In the Balanced version (assuming projectile profile is changed to match explosive) The minmatar and Amarr are ALWAYS the best race per variant when taking on Armour or Shield only tanked suits respectively. While the gallante and caldari work best when the ratio of tank is closer to 50% Burst weapons only start outclassing assaults when used upon the correct tank type and a decent profiency level. Since the Difference in range and DPS between races is negligible, popularity is swayed less by which has the best DPS/pm value and which one suits the player best. Furthermore it suits the lore better without turning it into spreadsheets and auto-fire My suit's a bit rusty, but that could just as easily be me! Monkey Mac - Swinging from the Rooftops Forum Warrior Lvl2
Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone Psychotic Alliance 1417	Posted - 2014.07.02 23:32:00 - [15] - Quote Option 1. Calmanndo user with nova knives: Because someone has to do it.
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2977	Posted - 2014.07.03 08:11:00 - [16] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Option 1. Yeah most people are in preference to this, well at least those who agree anyway! It just seems common sense, we will get stuck in the nerf/buff cycle until time immorium, or we end up with something closely resembling my balanced solution. My suit's a bit rusty, but that could just as easily be me! Monkey Mac - Swinging from the Rooftops Forum Warrior Lvl2
Ralden Caster KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 61	Posted - 2014.07.03 15:24:00 - [17] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: Also, point: In order to keep overall balance, the HMG will need to be adjusted along with the rifles. If these changes were to be put into effect, the HMG range needs to be dropped to "close" status. HMG's dispersion is not enough to reduce it's effectiveness at "short" range. Assault variant rifles should be able to out DPS an HMG at the edge of it's optimal, and it can't do that when after 1 second of firing the HMG's spread has shrunk enough to hit you with almost every bullet. That, or instead of getting a tighter spread the longer it fires, it should get wider the more you shoot (as any person thinking about it logically would have made it from the start) making it less effective at range unless you fire in bursts. Also, if this happens, the time it takes for the circular crosshairs to change from full size to normal size should be around 2 seconds and the crosshair should start at about half it's current size to allow for expansion. The HMG is supposed to be able to shred you. Heavies are the staple of defense and should require more effort to take down. If heavies could chase you down easily and jump heights higher than their kneecaps, then we could talk. And so, the mercenaries rejoiced, but with the regret that some of the mighty had fallen.
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2979	Posted - 2014.07.03 15:28:00 - [18] - Quote Ralden Caster wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Also, point: In order to keep overall balance, the HMG will need to be adjusted along with the rifles. If these changes were to be put into effect, the HMG range needs to be dropped to "close" status. HMG's dispersion is not enough to reduce it's effectiveness at "short" range. Assault variant rifles should be able to out DPS an HMG at the edge of it's optimal, and it can't do that when after 1 second of firing the HMG's spread has shrunk enough to hit you with almost every bullet. That, or instead of getting a tighter spread the longer it fires, it should get wider the more you shoot (as any person thinking about it logically would have made it from the start) making it less effective at range unless you fire in bursts. Also, if this happens, the time it takes for the circular crosshairs to change from full size to normal size should be around 2 seconds and the crosshair should start at about half it's current size to allow for expansion. The HMG is supposed to be able to shred you. Heavies are the staple of defense and should require more effort to take down. If heavies could chase you down easily and jump heights higher than their kneecaps, then we could talk. The HMG will still shred, it's just the AR will be capable of out ranging it. My suit's a bit rusty, but that could just as easily be me! Monkey Mac - Swinging from the Rooftops Forum Warrior Lvl2
Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy 1552	Posted - 2014.07.03 15:57:00 - [19] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Ralden Caster wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Also, point: In order to keep overall balance, the HMG will need to be adjusted along with the rifles. If these changes were to be put into effect, the HMG range needs to be dropped to "close" status. HMG's dispersion is not enough to reduce it's effectiveness at "short" range. Assault variant rifles should be able to out DPS an HMG at the edge of it's optimal, and it can't do that when after 1 second of firing the HMG's spread has shrunk enough to hit you with almost every bullet. That, or instead of getting a tighter spread the longer it fires, it should get wider the more you shoot (as any person thinking about it logically would have made it from the start) making it less effective at range unless you fire in bursts. Also, if this happens, the time it takes for the circular crosshairs to change from full size to normal size should be around 2 seconds and the crosshair should start at about half it's current size to allow for expansion. The HMG is supposed to be able to shred you. Heavies are the staple of defense and should require more effort to take down. If heavies could chase you down easily and jump heights higher than their kneecaps, then we could talk. The HMG will still shred, it's just the AR will be capable of out ranging it. It already out ranges it though... Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2987	Posted - 2014.07.03 19:02:00 - [20] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Ralden Caster wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Also, point: In order to keep overall balance, the HMG will need to be adjusted along with the rifles. If these changes were to be put into effect, the HMG range needs to be dropped to "close" status. HMG's dispersion is not enough to reduce it's effectiveness at "short" range. Assault variant rifles should be able to out DPS an HMG at the edge of it's optimal, and it can't do that when after 1 second of firing the HMG's spread has shrunk enough to hit you with almost every bullet. That, or instead of getting a tighter spread the longer it fires, it should get wider the more you shoot (as any person thinking about it logically would have made it from the start) making it less effective at range unless you fire in bursts. Also, if this happens, the time it takes for the circular crosshairs to change from full size to normal size should be around 2 seconds and the crosshair should start at about half it's current size to allow for expansion. The HMG is supposed to be able to shred you. Heavies are the staple of defense and should require more effort to take down. If heavies could chase you down easily and jump heights higher than their kneecaps, then we could talk. The HMG will still shred, it's just the AR will be capable of out ranging it. It already out ranges it though... The you will notice no difference then, it will just be more refined! My suit's a bit rusty, but that could just as easily be me! Monkey Mac - Swinging from the Rooftops Forum Warrior Lvl2

wiseguy12 Ancient Legion 36	Posted - 2014.07.03 19:09:00 - [21] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: I agree that your option 1 is the better solution, and I would be behind this fix wholeheartedly. You're making no sense at all. *W.I.D.O.S.* when in doubt orbital strike
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2995	Posted - 2014.07.03 23:32:00 - [22] - Quote wiseguy12 wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: I agree that your option 1 is the better solution, and I would be behind this fix wholeheartedly. You're making no sense at all. I presented 2 options Option 1) Rifles are grouped together by their variant, so all assault rifles have similar ranges and DPS, each variamt fills one role very well and the rest moderately. Option 2) Rifles are grouped together by their race, so all gallante rifles have similar ranges amd DPS, each race fills one role very well and the rest moderatly. Option 1, is the more agreeable as it means that it's not just a simple as a slider of Range vs DPS. The damage profiles make a much larger impact, since range and DPS are already set, a greater license with the weapons attributes (such as ROF, Damage per Shot, Magazine Size(Time to Empty) Reload Time,) allows each race to have distinctive characteristics about their weaponry. I.e Gallante Moderate ROF, Moderate Damage per Shot, Moderate Magazine Size but Long TTE, Long Reload Minmatar High ROF, Low Damage per Shot, Large Magazine Size but Short TTE, Short Reload Amarr Moderate ROF, High Damage per Shot, Large Magazine Size but Short TTE (due to overheat mechanic), Moderate Reload Caldari Low ROF, High Damage per Shot, Small Magazine Size but Moderate TTE, Short Reload (due to charge mechanic) My suit's a bit rusty, but that could just as easily be me! Monkey Mac - Swinging from the Rooftops Forum Warrior Lvl2
Baal Omniscient Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1893	Posted - 2014.07.04 00:21:00 - [23] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Ralden Caster wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Also, point: In order to keep overall balance, the HMG will need to be adjusted along with the rifles. If these changes were to be put into effect, the HMG range needs to be dropped to "close" status. HMG's dispersion is not enough to reduce it's effectiveness at "short" range. Assault variant rifles should be able to out DPS an HMG at the edge of it's optimal, and it can't do that when after 1 second of firing the HMG's spread has shrunk enough to hit you with almost every bullet. That, or instead of getting a tighter spread the longer it fires, it should get wider the more you shoot (as any person thinking about it logically would have made it from the start) making it less effective at range unless you fire in bursts. Also, if this happens, the time it takes for the circular crosshairs to change from full size to normal size should be around 2 seconds and the crosshair should start at about half it's current size to allow for expansion. The HMG is supposed to be able to shred you. Heavies are the staple of defense and should require more effort to take down. If heavies could chase you down easily and jump heights higher than their kneecaps, then we could talk. The HMG will still shred, it's just the AR will be capable of out ranging it. It already out ranges it though... With current ranges, yes barely. (by around 1-5m, I forget exactly since the recent range drop on the AR) However, with the changes MAC is proposing the AR would no longer out range the current HMG, meaning it's range would either need to be dropped or have it's spread/heat stats flipped so that spraying longer gets LESS accurate instead of MORE accurate. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1 Winmatar Assault & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 3506	Posted - 2014.07.04 06:47:00 - [24] - Quote Thanks for the feedback, but we are not touching Rifles in the short term. Our data and forums are in agreement that rifles have never been as balanced as they are currently. If that changes, we will come to the forums for feedback. Right now, there are many things we want to tweak and fix that have higher priority. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2999	Posted - 2014.07.04 10:47:00 - [25] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks for the feedback, but we are not touching Rifles in the short term. Our data and forums are in agreement that rifles have never been as balanced as they are currently. If that changes, we will come to the forums for feedback. Right now, there are many things we want to tweak and fix that have higher priority. Cool, no worries. While the Rifles are indeed more balanced than ever, I was concerned about the Rifles slowly merging into very similar weapons. 'Feel' wise anyway, especially with the most recent changes, to the AR it feels incredibly similar to Assault Combat Rifle. Please however feel free to take a copy for archiving or legion, I can upload the spreadsheet document used to create these upon request. My suit's a bit rusty, but that could just as easily be me! Monkey Mac - Swinging from the Rooftops Forum Warrior Lvl2
Temias Mercurial Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 107	Posted - 2014.07.05 01:03:00 - [26] - Quote I still think that the rail rifle should have an effect similar to the laser rifle's close up reduced damage, as it's suppose to be a long range weapon, but is still ludicrously good at CQC due to it's damage output.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 3524	Posted - 2014.07.05 04:16:00 - [27] - Quote Temias Mercurial wrote: I still think that the rail rifle should have an effect similar to the laser rifle's close up reduced damage, as it's suppose to be a long range weapon, but is still ludicrously good at CQC due to it's damage output. That's exactly what I wrote in my notes not 2 hours ago. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

jaksol exendent Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2014.07.05 05:17:00 - [28] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks for the feedback, but we are not touching Rifles in the short term. Our data and forums are in agreement that rifles have never been as balanced as they are currently. If that changes, we will come to the forums for feedback. Right now, there are many things we want to tweak and fix that have higher priority. HACK "chromosome" HACK
MINA Longstrike 965	Posted - 2014.07.05 05:18:00 - [29] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Temias Mercurial wrote: I still think that the rail rifle should have an effect similar to the laser rifle's close up reduced damage, as it's suppose to be a long range weapon, but is still ludicrously good at CQC due to it's damage output. That's exactly what I wrote in my notes not 2 hours ago. I'm okay with rails being useable at close range, I'm not okay with them still being really good at 100m, people tend to migrate to the longest range weapons unless they have significant cqc drawbacks. If you're going to tweak rails in this manner it probably needs to be done to CRs too, scrs are fine with overheat Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 403	Posted - 2014.07.05 09:24:00 - [30] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Temias Mercurial wrote: I still think that the rail rifle should have an effect similar to the laser rifle's close up reduced damage, as it's suppose to be a long range weapon, but is still ludicrously good at CQC due to it's damage output. That's exactly what I wrote in my notes not 2 hours ago. why does everyone compare the rail rifle to the laser rifle? the laser rifle is a support weapon. the rail rifle is a primary weapon. the sniper rifle is a support weapon. its long range. if i ran around with a tactical sniper rifle and started popping dudes under 100m would people cry and ask that its bullets magically do less damage at closer ranges? someone explain to me how a chunk of solid matter fire with with as much kinetic energy and velocity as needed to reach the range as the rail rifle, wouldnt punch straight through anyone at close range. tell me how, a bullet does less damage close up than it does at range? can anyone sure me a weapon, any weapon at all that fires a projectile of any sort that does less damage up close and more damage at range? we're talking about a bullet gaining kinetic energy while in flight lol



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