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[Solve] Newbro Scout vs Proto Heavy

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Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1855	Posted - 2014.06.15 14:49:00 - [1] - Quote Given * Newbro Scout: Scout g-1, 110 shields / 190 Armor, Standard Shotgun or Standard Knives. * Proto Heavy: Sentinel gk.0, 560 Shields / 1100 Armor, Boundless HMG. Restriction * Newbro Scout must not use Remote Explosives. * Proto Heavy must "mid-air pirouette" when first hit. Solve * Newbro Scout has managed to flank a lone Proto Heavy; by what steps can Newbro Scout defeat this mark? Bonus Question * Reversing roles, what specific difficulties do Newbro Heavies face when firing upon Proto Scouts? Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
BLAAAASTER Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 107	Posted - 2014.06.15 15:00:00 - [2] - Quote So the weakest suit against the strongest suit? Well use a combat rifle and stay ahead of the heavies turn , jump over him as needed and the weakest suit can win. Otherwise run away and shoot from afar wait till other players roll up and go for the finish. Heavies are pretty easy to kill if you are smarter. Bonus question Panic pray and spray for the win. Unless of course the scout has snuck up behind the heavy unoticed with a shotgun then the heavy has no chance to even turn around to meet his killer. Thump thump dead
Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Lokun Listamenn 3345	Posted - 2014.06.15 15:02:00 - [3] - Quote RE+cloak+ACR+ProtoScoot+plates=newberry heavy quits dust/quits being heavy. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1857	Posted - 2014.06.15 15:05:00 - [4] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: RE+cloak+ACR+ProtoScoot+plates=newberry heavy quits dust/quits being heavy. Play by the rules or do not play ... * Newbro Scout cannot fit a cloak. * Newbro Scout must use Shotgun or Knives * Newbro Scout must not use REs. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Lokun Listamenn 3345	Posted - 2014.06.15 15:08:00 - [5] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: RE+cloak+ACR+ProtoScoot+plates=newberry heavy quits dust/quits being heavy. Play by the rules or do not play ... * Newbro Scout cannot fit a cloak. * Newbro Scout must use Shotgun or Knives * Newbro Scout must not use REs. I skipped right to the bonus(just like in real life) It's why my car never gets clean at the car wash...just gets hot air in it. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1857	Posted - 2014.06.15 15:13:00 - [6] - Quote BLAAAASTER wrote: Well use a combat rifle and stay ahead of the heavies turn , jump over him as needed and the weakest suit can win. We must play by the rules ... * Newbro Scout must engage using a Standard Shotgun or Nova Knives * Proto Heavy must execute the "mid-air pirouette" maneuver when 1st hit Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
BLAAAASTER Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 108	Posted - 2014.06.15 15:23:00 - [7] - Quote OK this thread is dumb then. The shotgun will win most of the time if the guy can hop and sneak. Thread closed/
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 471	Posted - 2014.06.15 15:24:00 - [8] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: RE+cloak+ACR+ProtoScoot+plates=newberry heavy quits dust/quits being heavy. Play by the rules or do not play ... * Newbro Scout cannot fit a cloak. * Newbro Scout must use Shotgun or Knives * Newbro Scout must not use REs. In other words, you're arbitrarily making life more difficult than is necessary. Newbro Scout sees Proto squad, quits battle and finds new one. Victory!
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1859	Posted - 2014.06.15 15:28:00 - [9] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Newbro Scout sees Proto squad, quits battle and finds new one. Victory! Good eye! A+ 100% - Valid Solution 110% - Valid Solution (Bonus A) Why skip Bonus B? Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Rynoceros Rise Of Old Dudes 3911	Posted - 2014.06.15 15:31:00 - [10] - Quote Newbro Scout must Master Jump+Strafe. He must also know his DPS maths and opt for a proper weapon to accommodate his play style or ability. Newbro Heavy must know the limitations of his ammo supply and overheat limitations when using the 'spray and pray' technique against a stealthy veteran. He must also know how to work within the movement cap speed to track targets in CQC through the insane amount of muzzle fire of a HMG. Know your weapon's range. Know your suit's limitations. Know your enemy's weapons. Know their dropsuit's limitations. Play your given advantages. PSN: The_Rynoceros Destiny beta SoonGäó Console Master Race

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1859	Posted - 2014.06.15 15:43:00 - [11] - Quote Rynoceros wrote: Newbro Scout must Master Jump+Strafe. Assuming our Newbro Scout is using Shotgun or Knives, this tactic will be consistently defeated by Proto Heavy's Jump+Pirouette+Backpedal. PS: If you are advocating for range improvements to Knives and Shotguns, I will support you in your quest :-) Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Schecter 666 52	Posted - 2014.06.15 15:44:00 - [12] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Given * Newbro Scout (g-1, 110 / 190 HP) w/ Standard Shotgun. * Proto Heavy (gk.0, 560 / 1100 HP) w/ Boundless HMG. Restriction * Newbro Scout must not use Remote Explosives. * Proto Heavy must use "mid-air pirouette" when first hit. Solve * Newbro Scout has managed to flank lone Proto Heavy; by what steps can Newbro Scout defeat this mark? Bonus One * Rework above scenario using Newbro Scout m-1 (120 / 85 HP) w/ Standard Nova Knives. Bonus Two * Reversing roles, what specific difficulties do Newbro Heavies face when engaging Proto Scouts? Just shoot them in the back, I use a 200hp shotgun guy and taking on heavies is no problem, just shoot them in the back! The Struggle...is tolerating DUST for even 1 match without flushing your own foot down the toilet in a fit of rage.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 14523	Posted - 2014.06.15 15:56:00 - [13] - Quote Schecter 666 wrote: Just shoot them in the back, I use a 200hp shotgun guy and taking on heavies is no problem, just shoot them in the back! It will take four shots to accomplish this - taking several seconds. In that time, said heavy can turn around and shoot in the general direction of the newbro scout. Newbro scout dies immediately. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Xocoyol Zaraoul Superior Genetics 1977	Posted - 2014.06.15 16:15:00 - [14] - Quote I've been playing heavies since the day they existed, back when we had base 100 shields and 600 armor... As a scout these days, you'll give me trouble if you remember what you can do that I can't Use your better sensors. I can't detect you until I literally see you with my eyes. You know ahead of time where I'm facing. Never charge in unless you see my back. Stay close to cover where you can in a heartbeat break the engagement. If you hit me unaware, it takes me a lot longer to regen 100 shields or god forbid 100 armor then it takes you to regen the equivalent. Use your higher regen to your advantage and wear me down. I also have a proto scout, I know this works by doing this from both perspectives. Wear Me Down. Range is your friend, engage from range, take cover briefly to regen shields, rinse and repeat. Punish any and all heavies in the open, you will win if they are far away enough from cover. Anyone who says heavies have an advantage over scouts in all situations should be permanently ignored, they don't have the tactical skills nor the gun game to compete, they are pubtrash newbies and will corrupt your tactics. For close-work use shotties, ARs, and assault CRs, they have the DPS to make hit-and-run worthwhile, for long range work punishing heavies in the open stick to RR and CRs, Scrambler Rifles work mainly against Minnies and Cals due to how shield based they are otherwise you may end up blowing through a ridiculous amount of ammunition. learn to recognize when heavies are not alone. This pains me to say this, but a lot of people don't understand the concept of "two-against-one" and think they can solo in every situation. A Heavy who is squadded with a nearby scout or sensor logi has a massive advantage over you, as suddenly you lost your advantage of being unseen. This Will Kill You Every Time Against An Equal Skill Heavy. In a standard suit, you will always be at a disadvantage against a protobear. learn to listen to reloads, an HMG reload is LOUD, wait for him to gun down an obvious pubtrash, wait for a few seconds close by, and when he hits that reload, run in and blow him to hell, when he pulls out his secondary run away, rinse and repeat. Or just flat out kill him while he tries to stubbornly finish the 6-8 second (Depending on skills) HMG reload. If you can't kill him in 6 seconds of him stubbornly reloading, you're a ** shot. "You see those red dots over there? Go and shoot them until you see a +50 on the screen" - Arkena Wyrnspire**
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2919	Posted - 2014.06.15 16:33:00 - [15] - Quote fist test to see what his sensitivity is at. Many HMG users prefer low sensitivity, if this is the case it is easy to dace around him before he can target you. If proto HMG user have higher sensitivity, you're SOL Bonus 1: cook a flux grenade and hit the HMG user with it. toss your second flux and run around behind him. full charge knives while he's looking for the person that threw the grenade. strafe the same direction he's turning around in and get a swipe in, jump into the direction he's turning, get a swipe in, jump around him, get a swipe in, jump around, knife a last time for the kill Bonus 2: Increase sensitivity to 90/90 or higher, follow scout as fast as he moves around, kill him with 300-400 HP left And always remember, just because the animation comes from the gun, the bullets actually shoot from the eyes Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia
rithujith roshan Max-Pain-inc Dark Taboo 27	Posted - 2014.06.15 16:37:00 - [16] - Quote What are u trying to prove? If the scout is a newbie & the the heavy is dedicated in his role ,then the heavy will win.
Xocoyol Zaraoul Superior Genetics 1979	Posted - 2014.06.15 16:37:00 - [17] - Quote Yeah, I have maxed sensitivity for the aforementioned reasons... Also smart heavies have autoaim turned off, as the damn thing likes to keep the edge of the HMG reticule on the target instead of the center dot. "You see those red dots over there? Go and shoot them until you see a +50 on the screen" - Arkena Wyrnspire
BLOOD Ruler The Lionheart Coalition 363	Posted - 2014.06.15 16:45:00 - [18] - Quote Step1 Flank-check.Step2 weapon check-check.Step3 move in quietly with nova knives to weaken or take away proto heavy shields-check.Step4 finish target with another hit from nova knives and ending it with shotgun.Use these steps when proto is alone with no teammates Feel the pain of my knives and the piercing pain your skull has felt to my pistol.I am the Assassin.
Schecter 666 53	Posted - 2014.06.15 17:10:00 - [19] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Schecter 666 wrote: Just shoot them in the back, I use a 200hp shotgun guy and taking on heavies is no problem, just shoot them in the back! It will take four shots to accomplish this - taking several seconds. In that time, said heavy can turn around and shoot in the general direction of the newbro scout. Newbro scout dies immediately. are we not assuming that the average player in DUST is braindead? wait a minute then the scout would be too. OK I'll leave it to someone else lol, the power of gallente and armour tanking should see them through. The Struggle...is tolerating DUST for even 1 match without flushing your own foot down the toilet in a fit of rage.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1863	Posted - 2014.06.15 17:17:00 - [20] - Quote Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote: I've been playing heavies since the day they existed, back when we had base 100 shields and 600 armor... + Stuff Play by the rules or do not play ... * Newbro Scout does not need your pro tips (he's already flanked Pro Heavy, and the Pro Heavy is alone) * Range is a non-option for Newbro Scout; Newbro Scout has Shotgun or Knives. +1 for effort Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley

Xocoyol Zaraoul Superior Genetics 1981	Posted - 2014.06.15 17:37:00 - [21] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: As I recall, the Shotgun Scout from behind in Chrome was a "hard counter" to anything, including proto-bear Heavies. Sort of, due to the crappy and buggy server hit detection making mobile scouts almost impossible to hit with just about anything, actually, if we are thinking that far back. The Shotgun scout from chrome was imba for both better and for worse, though I'm not so sure I'd call it a hard counter to everything, but it was in need of severe tweaking. Anywho, my tips still stand if we ignore the range part. At the end of the day, a standard suit versus a proto suit should rightfully be an uphill battle. shrugs I'll maybe write up the difficulties for your scenario 2 later, for newbro heavies against proto scouts, but it sure won't be pretty... I find it easy to kill newbro heavies with my protobear cal scout, but then again my suits are custom-built for such things. "You see those red dots over there? Go and shoot them until you see a +50 on the screen" - Arkena Wyrnspire
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1864	Posted - 2014.06.15 17:40:00 - [22] - Quote BLOOD Ruler wrote: Step1 Flank-check.Step2 weapon check-check.Step3 move in quietly with nova knives to weaken or take away proto heavy shields-check.Step4 finish target with another hit from nova knives and ending it with shotgun.Use these steps when proto is alone with no teammates First Attack Perfectly executed, charged backstab. 90x2x4 = 720; Heavy has 940 Armor remaining. Second Attack Follow up slash. Heavy bunny-hopped (attack will fail); assuming it didn't; Heavy has 760 Armor remaining. * Note: Heavy is now facing you, backpedaling, and firing at 900 DPS * Third Attack Shotgun follow up. You'll be dead by now, but in case you aren't, you will do more than 400 damage. 360 Armor remaining. Fourth Attack By this time, you'll definitely be dead and the heavy will definitely have backpedaled beyond your range. + 1 effort and having the cahones to run SG primary + NK secondary :-) Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1864	Posted - 2014.06.15 17:44:00 - [23] - Quote Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote: The Shotgun scout from chrome was imba for both better and for worse, though I'm not so sure I'd call it a hard counter to everything, but it was in need of severe tweaking. What I said was "a shotgun scout from behind ... " Remember how everyone (friend and foe) would sh!t themselves when a shotgun went off nearby? lol Bullet Weaving was a problem in Chrome, but its off topic. As are your Pro Tips. I'm trying to keep things in the context of "Scout flanks Heavy" and how the scenarios that follow have changed. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Crimson ShieId Psygod9 539	Posted - 2014.06.15 18:07:00 - [24] - Quote Does this heavy have armor reps, or just stacked plates? I'd assume the latter due to the health, but I don't run a Gallente heavy, so I'm not sure what they're capable of... I'd say it would depend on the map. An open map means the heavy would likely win every time, but a map like Ashland... With either weapon, the scout simply needs positioning and patience. Flanking and possibly fluxing his target first before moving in to chip away at the target's health before running away again. This would be easiest with a shotgun, even the basic variant does, I believe, well over a hundred damage more than the basic Nova Knives. If the heavy doesn't have armor reps, it's as simple as repeating the above until the scout can finally get those last strikes in... not that I'd ever recommend a basic scout play fair against a proto heavy. Now, if that Min scout had Lv5 in his suit's operation and Lv5 in Nova Knife Proficiency... it would be a more even match up, but otherwise, without cloaking or RE's, chipping away at the heavy's health bar would work just as often as it would fail. It's like fighting a boss in Dark Souls. The boss can make mistakes right and left and still survive, but if you make one mistake, you're dead. On another note though, this makes me want custom games. I want to put a squad of heavies against a squad of scouts. Or just 1v1 duels. Nova Knives are best sidearm.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1866	Posted - 2014.06.15 18:08:00 - [25] - Quote Crimson ShieId wrote: Does this heavy have armor reps, or just stacked plates? I'd assume the latter due to the health, but I don't run a Gallente heavy, so I'm not sure what they're capable of... I'd say it would depend on the map. An open map means the heavy would likely win every time, but a map like Ashland... With either weapon, the scout simply needs positioning and patience. Flanking and possibly fluxing his target first before moving in to chip away at the target's health before running away again. This would be easiest with a shotgun, even the basic variant does, I believe, well over a hundred damage more than the basic Nova Knives. If the heavy doesn't have armor reps, it's as simple as repeating the above until the scout can finally get those last strikes in... not that I'd ever recommend a basic scout play fair against a proto heavy. Now, if that Min scout had Lv5 in his suit's operation and Lv5 in Nova Knife Proficiency... it would be a more even match up, but otherwise, without cloaking or RE's, chipping away at the heavy's health bar would work just as often as it would fail. It's like fighting a boss in Dark Souls. The boss can make mistakes right and left and still survive, but if you make one mistake, you're dead. On another note though, this makes me want custom games. I want to put a squad of heavies against a squad of scouts. Or just 1v1 duels. Used Protofits to build out Proto Heavy gk.0. He has 3 complex plates and 1 complex shield. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Llast 326 An Arkhos 3653	Posted - 2014.06.15 18:57:00 - [26] - Quote SG won't do it for a Newbro Scout, Sidearm is what is going to make this one finish. Open with the SG, quick switch to Sidearm ScP- two headshots is faster than the SG will do the job. Even at basic/militia the ScP has the stopping power IF you can land those headshots. SMG - because of Newbro status they will not have the SP invested to concentrate fire, so it will be spray and prayGÇª likely dead scout. MAGsec - Spool up kills you, kick means you don't open with this as a Newbro. Bolt Pistol - Not enough time unless you have a doorway to work with Nova Knife - Not going to cut it as a back up in this scenario or as a primary unless Newbro has invested as much SP as possible into them. Ion- Not enough Alpha and seize will be the death of a Newbro (and some more experienced players) Using Knives as a Newbro is often Death, best bet is to bring a Bastard with you. KRRROOOOOOM
Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy 1389	Posted - 2014.06.15 19:01:00 - [27] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Given * Newbro Scout (g-1, 110 / 190 HP) w/ Standard Shotgun. * Proto Heavy (gk.0, 560 / 1100 HP) w/ Boundless HMG. Restriction * Newbro Scout must not use Remote Explosives. * Proto Heavy must use "mid-air pirouette" when first hit. Solve * Newbro Scout has managed to flank lone Proto Heavy; by what steps can Newbro Scout defeat this mark? Bonus One * Rework above scenario using Newbro Scout m-1 (120 / 85 HP) w/ Standard Nova Knives. Bonus Two * Reversing roles, what specific difficulties do Newbro Heavies face when engaging Proto Scouts? Rigged scenario is rigged. Allow me to counter with an equally rigged game Scout has proto RR on manus peak and heavy has HMG and is in the middle of the open no cover what so ever. tell me a way for the heavy to win Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1876	Posted - 2014.06.15 19:13:00 - [28] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Given * Newbro Scout (g-1, 110 / 190 HP) w/ Standard Shotgun. * Proto Heavy (gk.0, 560 / 1100 HP) w/ Boundless HMG. Restriction * Newbro Scout must not use Remote Explosives. * Proto Heavy must use "mid-air pirouette" when first hit. Solve * Newbro Scout has managed to flank lone Proto Heavy; by what steps can Newbro Scout defeat this mark? Bonus One * Rework above scenario using Newbro Scout m-1 (120 / 85 HP) w/ Standard Nova Knives. Bonus Two * Reversing roles, what specific difficulties do Newbro Heavies face when engaging Proto Scouts? Rigged scenario is rigged. Allow me to counter with an equally rigged game Scout has proto RR on manus peak and heavy has HMG and is in the middle of the open no cover what so ever. tell me a way for the heavy to win There's nothing rigged or wrong about a low-level Scout flanking a Proto Heavy. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
DozersMouse XIII Inner.Hell 836	Posted - 2014.06.15 19:28:00 - [29] - Quote newbro scout avoids this encounter and moves on to the next target newbro heavy should have never been alone and needs get his ass back to a high traffic area don't harm the hamsters
Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p 474	Posted - 2014.06.15 19:38:00 - [30] - Quote If the heavy can aim, the only way to solve this problem is by leaving battle. If the scout can aim as well as the heavy, the heavy wins. Its a lose-lose situation for a new scout. Now for bonus B: Heavy has back turned, proto scout shotguns once (1), Heavy jumps forward and does a midair turn, scout fires again at 70% efficacy (2), heavy jumps backwards again, and is now out of range of the scout and fully turned around. .45 seconds later, the scout is dead, and the third (3) shot of the shotgun failed to do damage, and the heavy is in critical health. So, for the heavy, it requires almost scout-like tactics, aim, skill, and a little bit of luck, and he will win against a proto scout with equal skill, tactics and aim. The heavy is, however, now in critical condition, having only 400 armor, and must even reload his HMG. What all Minjas are thinking as they play... Yellow Heavy, Red Heavy...

Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy 1390	Posted - 2014.06.15 19:43:00 - [31] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: Rigged scenario is rigged. Allow me to counter with an equally rigged game Scout has proto RR on manus peak and heavy has HMG and is in the middle of the open no cover what so ever. tell me a way for the heavy to win Play by the rules or don't play at all ... There's nothing rigged or wrong about a low-level Scout flanking a Proto Heavy. Nothing rigged huh? you gave a low sp scout only short range weapons to deal with a suit that is designed to mulch everything in its optimal range... and to add insult to injury you denied the poor scout of one of its greatest tools the RE. I must admit i'm starting to enjoy the drivel you are vomiting onto the forums. It's like watching one of those reality shows, makes you wonder what the idiots are gonna do next Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1885	Posted - 2014.06.15 19:53:00 - [32] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: Rigged scenario is rigged. Allow me to counter with an equally rigged game Scout has proto RR on manus peak and heavy has HMG and is in the middle of the open no cover what so ever. tell me a way for the heavy to win Play by the rules or don't play at all ... There's nothing rigged or wrong about a low-level Scout flanking a Proto Heavy. Nothing rigged huh? you gave a low sp scout only short range weapons to deal with a suit that is designed to mulch everything in its optimal range... and to add insult to injury you denied the poor scout of one of its greatest tools the RE. I must admit i'm starting to enjoy the drivel you are vomiting onto the forums. It's like watching one of those reality shows, makes you wonder what the idiots are gonna do next Scouts have been flanking and back-stabbing Heavies since the beginning. Low-Range / High Alpha weapons aren't supposed to be a handicap. The fact that you think they are a handicap says alot about the state of things. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 2011	Posted - 2014.06.15 20:02:00 - [33] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: Rigged scenario is rigged. Allow me to counter with an equally rigged game Scout has proto RR on manus peak and heavy has HMG and is in the middle of the open no cover what so ever. tell me a way for the heavy to win Play by the rules or don't play at all ... There's nothing rigged or wrong about a low-level Scout flanking a Proto Heavy. Nothing rigged huh? you gave a low sp scout only short range weapons to deal with a suit that is designed to mulch everything in its optimal range... and to add insult to injury you denied the poor scout of one of its greatest tools the RE. I must admit i'm starting to enjoy the drivel you are vomiting onto the forums. It's like watching one of those reality shows, makes you wonder what the idiots are gonna do next This sounds like more of a exercise in tactical philosophy. MacGyver wasn't cool because he could make awesome gadgets with unlimited resources, he was awesome because he used his brain given the limited implements and circumstances he was in. If you don't want to find creative tactics thats fine, but don't criticize the game because it is difficult. This is how a minja feels
Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy 1390	Posted - 2014.06.15 20:04:00 - [34] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: Rigged scenario is rigged. Allow me to counter with an equally rigged game Scout has proto RR on manus peak and heavy has HMG and is in the middle of the open no cover what so ever. tell me a way for the heavy to win Play by the rules or don't play at all ... There's nothing rigged or wrong about a low-level Scout flanking a Proto Heavy. Nothing rigged huh? you gave a low sp scout only short range weapons to deal with a suit that is designed to mulch everything in its optimal range... and to add insult to injury you denied the poor scout of one of its greatest tools the RE. I must admit i'm starting to enjoy the drivel you are vomiting onto the forums. It's like watching one of those reality shows, makes you wonder what the idiots are gonna do next Scouts have been flanking and back-stabbing Heavies since the beginning. Yes they have and yes they STILL do. However flanking and backstabbing doesn't just mean SG and KN. When I use my scout I back stab with a LR by sneaking behind enemy line and hitting em from surprise angles. Am I a bad scout for not limiting my self to the SG NK stereotype? Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 2011	Posted - 2014.06.15 20:09:00 - [35] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: Yes they have and yes they STILL do. However flanking and backstabbing doesn't just mean SG and KN. When I use my scout I back stab with a LR by sneaking behind enemy line and hitting em from surprise angles. Am I a bad scout for not limiting my self to the SG NK stereotype? Not a bad scout. Creativity, flanking, and blindsiding an enemy are good tactics from any scout. I just think this is a creative exercise, and needed limits to make it challenging. Personally I would use cover and a flux. Maybe even time it up so that I am knifing him or SG him when the flux goes off so he has less time to react. It wouldn't matter much if I took my own shields down because at that low an ehp the change TTK is insignificant. This is how a minja feels
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1885	Posted - 2014.06.15 20:13:00 - [36] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: Yes they have and yes they STILL do. However flanking and backstabbing doesn't just mean SG and KN. When I use my scout I back stab with a LR by sneaking behind enemy line and hitting em from surprise angles. Am I a bad scout for not limiting my self to the SG NK stereotype? Low-Range / High Alpha weapons aren't supposed to be a handicap. The fact that you think they are a handicap says alot about the state of things. Are you advocating for SG / NK buffs or Heavy nerfs? Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy 1390	Posted - 2014.06.15 20:16:00 - [37] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: Rigged scenario is rigged. Allow me to counter with an equally rigged game Scout has proto RR on manus peak and heavy has HMG and is in the middle of the open no cover what so ever. tell me a way for the heavy to win Play by the rules or don't play at all ... There's nothing rigged or wrong about a low-level Scout flanking a Proto Heavy. Nothing rigged huh? you gave a low sp scout only short range weapons to deal with a suit that is designed to mulch everything in its optimal range... and to add insult to injury you denied the poor scout of one of its greatest tools the RE. I must admit i'm starting to enjoy the drivel you are vomiting onto the forums. It's like watching one of those reality shows, makes you wonder what the idiots are gonna do next This sounds like more of a exercise in tactical philosophy. MacGyver wasn't cool because he could make awesome gadgets with unlimited resources, he was awesome because he used his brain given the limited implements and circumstances he was in. If you don't want to find creative tactics thats fine, but don't criticize the game because it is difficult. Even MacGyver needed the proper tools to succeed. To exclude REs is like taking away MacGyver's paperclip and asking him to repeat the same feat Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 2011	Posted - 2014.06.15 20:19:00 - [38] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: Even MacGyver needed the proper tools to succeed. To exclude REs is like taking away MacGyver's paperclip and asking him to repeat the same feat Giving him an RE is like taking away a paperclip and giving him a gun instead of making a gun with the paperclip. This is how a minja feels
Llast 326 An Arkhos 3655	Posted - 2014.06.15 20:19:00 - [39] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: Rigged scenario is rigged. Allow me to counter with an equally rigged game Scout has proto RR on manus peak and heavy has HMG and is in the middle of the open no cover what so ever. tell me a way for the heavy to win Play by the rules or don't play at all ... There's nothing rigged or wrong about a low-level Scout flanking a Proto Heavy. Nothing rigged huh? you gave a low sp scout only short range weapons to deal with a suit that is designed to mulch everything in its optimal range... and to add insult to injury you denied the poor scout of one of its greatest tools the RE. I must admit i'm starting to enjoy the drivel you are vomiting onto the forums. It's like watching one of those reality shows, makes you wonder what the idiots are gonna do next Scouts have been flanking and back-stabbing Heavies since the beginning. Yes they have and yes they STILL do. However flanking and backstabbing doesn't just mean SG and KN. When I use my scout I back stab with a LR by sneaking behind enemy line and hitting em from surprise angles. Am I a bad scout for not limiting my self to the SG NK stereotype? No, not a bad scout for it at all, but to be effective with your LR you need to be out of range of the HMG so it works well. What the scenario seems to be highlighting to me is that Alpha Damage weapons are struggling against the Alpha eHP models using high DPS weapons. We can call the scenario rigged all we want but this happens in game, it happens with players of all skill levels in all sorts of positions. So would the same problem arise from a new Heavy against a new Scout using the same scenario? KRRROOOOOOM
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1888	Posted - 2014.06.15 20:21:00 - [40] - Quote Llast 326 wrote: What the scenario seems to be highlighting to me is that Alpha Damage weapons are struggling against the Alpha eHP models using high DPS weapons. We can call the scenario rigged all we want but this happens in game, it happens with players of all skill levels in all sorts of positions. So would the same problem arise from a new Heavy against a new Scout using the same scenario? Somebody gets it! +1 Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley

Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy 1390	Posted - 2014.06.15 20:21:00 - [41] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: Yes they have and yes they STILL do. However flanking and backstabbing doesn't just mean SG and KN. When I use my scout I back stab with a LR by sneaking behind enemy line and hitting em from surprise angles. Am I a bad scout for not limiting my self to the SG NK stereotype? Scouts have always used Low-Range / High Alpha weapons. Low-Range / High Alpha weapons aren't supposed to be a handicap. The fact that you think they are a handicap says alot about the state of things. So are you advocating for SG / NK buffs or Heavy nerfs? there you go making assumptions again I use LR because its Amarr tech if we had an Amarr heavy weapon I wouldn't even be in this conversation right now. BTW a PRO SG already does ridiculous damage and KN already oneshot everything but a TANKED heavy Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1888	Posted - 2014.06.15 20:25:00 - [42] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: Yes they have and yes they STILL do. However flanking and backstabbing doesn't just mean SG and KN. When I use my scout I back stab with a LR by sneaking behind enemy line and hitting em from surprise angles. Am I a bad scout for not limiting my self to the SG NK stereotype? Scouts have always used Low-Range / High Alpha weapons. Low-Range / High Alpha weapons aren't supposed to be a handicap. The fact that you think they are a handicap says alot about the state of things. So are you advocating for SG / NK buffs or Heavy nerfs? there you go making assumptions again I use LR because its Amarr tech if we had an Amarr heavy weapon I wouldn't even be in this conversation right now. BTW a PRO SG already does ridiculous damage and KN already oneshot everything but a TANKED heavy Can a Newbro Scout wield Pro Knives or Shotguns? Newbro HMG Heavy spots Proto Scout ... Newbro Heavy has extremely good odds. Newbro NK/SG Scout flanks Proto Heavy ... Newbro Scout has no chance. Is it really that hard to follow how this might be a problem? Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy 1390	Posted - 2014.06.15 20:29:00 - [43] - Quote Llast 326 wrote: What the scenario seems to be highlighting to me is that Alpha Damage weapons are struggling against the Alpha eHP models using high DPS weapons. We can call the scenario rigged all we want but this happens in game, it happens with players of all skill levels in all sorts of positions. So would the same problem arise from a new Heavy against a new Scout using the same scenario? Now this is interesting... I like to propose a modification to your game. Make two characters using new character sp only AND THEN compare the two fits via protofits.com Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
Vicious Minotaur Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 885	Posted - 2014.06.15 20:44:00 - [44] - Quote New/low SP characters should not be facing off against veteran/high SP players in the first place (in pubs). Fair matchmaking is nonexistent. Fixing that would solve the arbitrary problem posed. But, as you would rather pose a problem that ignores DUSTs greatest strength (the entire fitting system), then: Newbro scout is, in most cases, screwed. 1) SP confers an advantage, so strike one against newbro scout. 2) weapon damage profiles are important. Shield biased weapon against an armour tanker. Strike two. 3) newbro is ignoring the fitting system. Strike three. What then, can the scout do? Use the greatest assets of all: the human brain. Think. Avoid proto heavies. Use the fitting system. Understand your enemy and your gear. Hit and run. Engage in a battle of attrition. Most of all, realize that you just can't win every engagement. Nova knives are terrible unless you invest lots of SP, so I won't touch that. As an aside, a newbro scout against my proto Minmatar/Caldari Sentinel has a decent chance of winning when they flank. And my active tanking Gallente sentinel w/ ~30hp/s regen gets eaten alive by shotguns, even when wielded by a newbro. When I was a newbro heavy, scouts (shotgun or not) were my bane. They still are. Then again, I don't stack plates. I'd say that your "problem" is arbitrary, overly restricted, and is designed to be biased. "Solving" it would achieve nothing. I am a minotaur.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1889	Posted - 2014.06.15 20:55:00 - [45] - Quote Vicious Minotaur wrote: I'd say that your "problem" is arbitrary, overly restricted, and is designed to be biased. "Solving" it would achieve nothing. This arbitrary "problem" prompts us to focus on an actual problem, the Pirouetting Heavy. You and I may not posses the tools to solve the "problem" within its restricted bounds. But others may possess the appropriate tools ... @ Rattati Did you know that the rotation speed of a Biotic Scout is exactly the same as that of a Sentinel running purely complex plates? Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy 1390	Posted - 2014.06.15 21:02:00 - [46] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Vicious Minotaur wrote: I'd say that your "problem" is arbitrary, overly restricted, and is designed to be biased. "Solving" it would achieve nothing. This arbitrary "problem" prompts us to focus on an actual problem, the Pirouetting Heavy. You and I may not posses the tools to solve the "problem" within its restricted bounds. But others may possess the appropriate tools to help us do so ... @ Rattati Did you know that the rotation speed of a Biotic Scout is exactly the same as that of a Sentinel running purely complex plates? THAT IS A PURE F*CKING LIE! I know for a fact that the movement penalty on plates applies to turn speed. At first I took you for a misguided fool... Now I see your true colors, and I WILL NOT stand for you biased bile any longer. There is NOTHING wrong with the heavy and NOTHING wrong with the HMG. Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1889	Posted - 2014.06.15 21:06:00 - [47] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: THAT IS A PURE FCKING LIE! I know for a fact that the movement penalty on plates applies to turn speed. At first I took you for a misguided fool... Now I see your true colors, and I WILL NOT stand for you biased bile any longer. There is NOTHING wrong with the heavy and NOTHING wrong with the HMG. I totally agree with you ... it is absolute bullsht. But its the truth. Test it yourself. I just did. Once you discover that I'm right, do you think maybe we can be good friends? Maybe you can go back over all your posts and ranting and points ... and fix them? Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy 1391	Posted - 2014.06.15 21:19:00 - [48] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: THAT IS A PURE FCKING LIE! I know for a fact that the movement penalty on plates applies to turn speed. At first I took you for a misguided fool... Now I see your true colors, and I WILL NOT stand for you biased bile any longer. There is NOTHING wrong with the heavy and NOTHING wrong with the HMG. I totally agree with you ... it is absolute bullsht. But its the truth. Test it yourself. I just did. Once you discover that I'm right, do you think maybe we can be good friends? Maybe you can go back over all your posts and ranting and points ... and fix them? Prove it I'm in game now I'm not hiding behind an alt and i don't bite ill happily accept a squad invite EDIT: dont even bother yeah it does affect turn speed Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 14529	Posted - 2014.06.15 21:20:00 - [49] - Quote Last I tested, heavies and scouts have no difference in rotation speed. I'll film and time on a capture card next time I get on. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy 1391	Posted - 2014.06.15 21:25:00 - [50] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Last I tested, heavies and scouts have no difference in rotation speed. I'll film and time on a capture card next time I get on. we are talking about plated vs unplated turn speed not native turn speed Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r

Ryme Intrinseca The Rainbow Effect 1345	Posted - 2014.06.15 21:28:00 - [51] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: RE+cloak+ACR+ProtoScoot+plates=newberry heavy quits dust/quits being heavy. Play by the rules or do not play ... * Newbro Scout cannot fit a cloak. * Newbro Scout must use Shotgun or Knives * Newbro Scout must not use REs. In other words, you're arbitrarily making life more difficult than is necessary. The OP is an errorist. He has weapons of mass facepalm.
Vicious Minotaur Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 886	Posted - 2014.06.15 21:31:00 - [52] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Vicious Minotaur wrote: I'd say that your "problem" is arbitrary, overly restricted, and is designed to be biased. "Solving" it would achieve nothing. This arbitrary "problem" prompts us to focus on an actual problem, the Pirouetting Heavy. You and I may not posses the tools to solve the "problem" within its restricted bounds. But others may possess the appropriate tools to help us do so ... @ Rattati Did you know that the rotation speed of a Biotic Scout is exactly the same as that of a Sentinel running purely complex plates? As i see it, That is not the biggest problem. There are bigger underlying problems that dwarf it. 1) disparity between standard and prototype gear. 2) holes in weapon selection 3) matchmaking Having a shotgun with a damage profile of ~90/110 [S/A] would do wonders to allow new scouts to deal with 1000+ armour heavies. In addition, making standard gear suck less compared to proto gear (or just commit tiericide) would even things out on ALL levels. 1&2 are things that can be done via hotfix, and would do more than address the specific imbalance you note with your restricted problem. 3 may not even be fixable via hotfix, unfortunately... I, for one, already have problem tracking scouts in CQC with my HMG. Reducing rotation speed could do more harm than good (but debate is always welcome). Also, 1 and 2 I feel, would be the best, safest approach to begin fixing things. Take things in steps. Prioritize. Addressing 1&2 could make addressing the "Pirouetting Heavy" unnecessary (and improve things for many other players simultaneously). But if not... Well, its not as if it is off the table. I am a minotaur.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 14531	Posted - 2014.06.15 21:33:00 - [53] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Last I tested, heavies and scouts have no difference in rotation speed. I'll film and time on a capture card next time I get on. we are talking about plated vs unplated turn speed not native turn speed Then I will test with plates. I don't believe a few percent slowdown on something that you can adjust with sensitivity is exactly crippling, though. Is even a 4 complex plated sentinel likely to die because the turn speed is marginally lower? You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy 1391	Posted - 2014.06.15 21:36:00 - [54] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Last I tested, heavies and scouts have no difference in rotation speed. I'll film and time on a capture card next time I get on. we are talking about plated vs unplated turn speed not native turn speed Then I will test with plates. I don't believe a few percent slowdown on something that you can adjust with sensitivity is exactly crippling, though. Is even a 4 complex plated sentinel likely to die because the turn speed is marginally lower? it is in a CQC situaltion as in a SG in its optimal Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 14532	Posted - 2014.06.15 21:47:00 - [55] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Then I will test with plates. I don't believe a few percent slowdown on something that you can adjust with sensitivity is exactly crippling, though. Is even a 4 complex plated sentinel likely to die because the turn speed is marginally lower? it is in a CQC situaltion as in a SG in its optimal Really? The difference probably comes to something like a quarter of a second, if that. You're looking at a second or so to do a 180, and then -if- plates affect your turn speed then in a worst case scenario it'll take 20% longer. Is that really life or death when it takes at least four direct hit shotgun rounds to kill? Assuming the scout has perfect aim that'll take him over 3 seconds. That leaves 2 seconds for you to kill him with a weapon that has a generous spread compensating for the jumping around a scout might do, and a very, very high DPS. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy 1391	Posted - 2014.06.15 21:59:00 - [56] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Then I will test with plates. I don't believe a few percent slowdown on something that you can adjust with sensitivity is exactly crippling, though. Is even a 4 complex plated sentinel likely to die because the turn speed is marginally lower? it is in a CQC situaltion as in a SG in its optimal Really? The difference probably comes to something like a quarter of a second, if that. You're looking at a second or so to do a 180, and then -if- plates affect your turn speed then in a worst case scenario it'll take 20% longer. Is that really life or death when it takes at least four direct hit shotgun rounds to kill? Assuming the scout has perfect aim that'll take him over 3 seconds. That leaves 2 seconds for you to kill him with a weapon that has a generous spread compensating for the jumping around a scout might do, and a very, very high DPS. it is when a scout is that close... remember they can strafe jump and do a number of things to throw off a heavies aim all the while sinking shells into the heavy Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1891	Posted - 2014.06.15 22:02:00 - [57] - Quote @ Arkena / Rattati I'm under the impression that plates have no effect whatsoever on rotation speed. The only factor which impacts rotation speed is input sensitivty. 200 HP or 2000 HP, we all pirouette at the exact same rate. If that strikes as you as 'fine' you're probably a Heavy. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 14534	Posted - 2014.06.15 22:06:00 - [58] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: it is when a scout is that close... remember they can strafe jump and do a number of things to throw off a heavies aim all the while sinking shells into the heavy For a scout to get all four shots to hit you, they need a shade over three seconds. In the time it takes you to turn around, you're down to about 2 seconds before you die. For the average scout, you'll need the weapon on target for maybe half a second to kill them. If it takes any more than that then the scout is heavily plated and won't be spry enough to throw off your aim that much. And believe it or not, the scout is not going to have perfect aim. Shotguns don't have a real spread. If the centre of the reticule isn't on target, you won't get a proper hit. The optimal range is also about four metres. It's entirely possible for you, as the heavy, to do a bunny hop yourself and throw off the scout's aim. That may sound impractical. Heavies, jumping around and dodging shots? But it'll help, because shotguns demand a perfectly on target hit. The HMG does not - so while the scout is jumping around and strafing, you can still hit them while you're increasing the time it takes for them to kill you. Even if you stand perfectly still, I would be very surprised if you were incapable of hitting a quarter of your shots. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy 1391	Posted - 2014.06.15 22:24:00 - [59] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Arkena / Rattati / Vitharr I'm under the impression that plates have no effect whatsoever on rotation speed. The only factor which impacts rotation speed is input sensitivty. @ Everyone 200 HP or 2000 HP, we all pirouette at the exact same rate. If this strikes you as absurd, imagine how our Newbro Scout feels. If this strikes as you as 'fine' you're probably a Heavy. I'm in game I've tested and yes it slows your turn down but you obviously want the heavy to take hours to do a 180 and our HMG to shoot gummi bears so yeah i'm gonna call you out on your cute attempt at propaganda AGAIN Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 14536	Posted - 2014.06.15 22:31:00 - [60] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: I'm in game I've tested and yes it slows your turn down but you obviously want the heavy to take hours to do a 180 and our HMG to shoot gummi bears so yeah i'm gonna call you out on your cute attempt at propaganda AGAIN Could we leave the complaining about the 'other side' talking 'propaganda' or 'only thinking its fine because they're a heavy'? This goes for both of you. Could you film said test? It doesn't have to be a capture card, a stable phone camera would work fine. I'm not on atm but I'll be filming properly tomorrow to settle this. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.

Spademan The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 1927	Posted - 2014.06.15 22:34:00 - [61] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Could we leave the complaining about the 'other side' talking 'propaganda' or 'only thinking its fine because they're a heavy'? This goes for both of you. Could you film said test? It doesn't have to be a capture card, a stable phone camera would work fine. I'm not on atm but I'll be filming properly tomorrow to settle this. Auntie Wyrnspire, putting you young whippersnappers in your place. I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special. Official Time Lord of the Scout Community
Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy 1391	Posted - 2014.06.15 22:49:00 - [62] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: I'm in game I've tested and yes it slows your turn down but you obviously want the heavy to take hours to do a 180 and our HMG to shoot gummi bears so yeah i'm gonna call you out on your cute attempt at propaganda AGAIN Could we leave the complaining about the 'other side' talking 'propaganda' or 'only thinking its fine because they're a heavy'? This goes for both of you. Could you film said test? It doesn't have to be a capture card, a stable phone camera would work fine. I'm not on atm but I'll be filming properly tomorrow to settle this. I apologize for you having to record if I could I would have hours ago >.> Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1892	Posted - 2014.06.15 22:52:00 - [63] - Quote Spademan wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Could we leave the complaining about the 'other side' talking 'propaganda' or 'only thinking its fine because they're a heavy'? This goes for both of you. Could you film said test? It doesn't have to be a capture card, a stable phone camera would work fine. I'm not on atm but I'll be filming properly tomorrow to settle this. Auntie Wyrnspire, putting you young whippersnappers in your place. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 14537	Posted - 2014.06.15 23:05:00 - [64] - Quote Alright, let's assume that plate rotation reductions exist for now. Looking at some old armour testing logs I did for an old campaign I do think you could be right, but they're pretty old now so I'd rather re-test. Okay, so you have a 20% reduction in turn speed as a worst case scenario. Ignoring the scenario presented by the OP let's go with a more even one - a proto shotgun scout vs this heavy. Let's estimate the HP of the scout at about 500-600 and say that it'll take four direct hits from the shotgun to kill the heavy. The heavy is armed with a boundless. The scout approaches from behind and gets the first shot off in its optimal. What happens next? It'll take about three seconds for the scout to kill the heavy . The heavy will take a 20% more ponderous turning movement to attack the scout. How long does it take for the heavy to turn? How long will it take the heavy to dispatch the scout? What are the odds of winning for the scout or the heavy? I think the odds here favour the heavy. Is there a reason this might not be so? You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Onesimus Tarsus Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 2108	Posted - 2014.06.16 00:31:00 - [65] - Quote rithujith roshan wrote: What are u trying to prove? If the scout is a newbie & the the heavy is dedicated in his role ,then the heavy will win. My dedication never saves me. I'm sorry if my signature no longer matches my earlier posts. K/Dr WP/Dr matchmaking fixes the whole game. Period.
Atiim NoGameNoLife 9487	Posted - 2014.06.16 00:35:00 - [66] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: In other words, you're arbitrarily making life more difficult than is necessary. Newbro Scout sees Proto squad, quits battle and finds new one. Victory! Not really, he's simply asking that your replies meet the constraints given in the hypothetical (yet highly probable) situation. I think it's reasonable. Amarrians would prefer you be faithful... I'd rather you be logical. Proud defender of Ishukone Corporation. -HAMD
Gaurdian Satyr Glitched Connection 290	Posted - 2014.06.16 00:38:00 - [67] - Quote unload your shotgun in the back of his head and stay out of his crosshairs....was a scout for a week and this problem became common sence in the first hour NOBODY CARES ABOUT YOUR CONSOLE OR PC
Argetlam Thorson Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 61	Posted - 2014.06.16 01:45:00 - [68] - Quote I've said it before and ill say it again. Watch your radar, only come at him from the back, charge your knives, swipe, swap to CR, put a few rounds in him, and enjoy your kill. If you didn't pick Min Scout don't expect to ninja heavies. Cal and Gal have other roles and Amarr is mostly useless. It doesn't take much SP to have a working Min Scout and your biggest worry (if you play smart) isn't heavies,its Gal scouts with shotties who will be invisible on radar until you're dead. If you see he's a tanked out protobear, don't engage unless you're proto as well. Other than them you should be fairly well off at ninja-ing fatties. Happy hunting.
castba Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 483	Posted - 2014.06.16 03:59:00 - [69] - Quote "Newbro" being someone that is fresh out of academy? If so: Scenario 1: newbro scout dies quickly Scenario 2: newbro heavy dies quickly whilst yelling "but look at all me health! This is BS." Why? Most newbros stand still whilst shooting. Proto bears? Scouts know how to move but many proto heavies do not. Anyone that thinks that a newbro heavy will perform a jump-spin is kidding themselves. Scenario: scout gets a sg blast to the back of heavy, heavy jumps and turns but instead of standing still like an idiot after the first shot, the scout has also jumped forward on an angle. Heavy loses scout due to expecting the enemy to the rear and once again the scout is behind or at least beside the heavy who is disoriented/confused. SG blast with immediate strafe. Odds that the heavy jumps again are low so he turns. Another sg blast to the side/rear of the heavy. Usually dead heavy.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1905	Posted - 2014.06.16 04:16:00 - [70] - Quote castba wrote: Scenario: scout gets a sg blast to the back of heavy, heavy jumps and turns but instead of standing still like an idiot after the first shot, the scout has also jumped forward on an angle. Heavy loses scout due to expecting the enemy to the rear and once again the scout is behind or at least beside the heavy who is disoriented/confused. SG blast with immediate strafe. Odds that the heavy jumps again are low so he turns. Another sg blast to the side/rear of the heavy. Usually dead heavy. Some fancy moves for a Newbro Scout! Lots of variables, but certainly possible! +1 If you have time, tell us about some of the fancy moves Newbro Heavies use when they see a Proto Scout :-) Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley

Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy 1393	Posted - 2014.06.16 04:24:00 - [71] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: castba wrote: Scenario: scout gets a sg blast to the back of heavy, heavy jumps and turns but instead of standing still like an idiot after the first shot, the scout has also jumped forward on an angle. Heavy loses scout due to expecting the enemy to the rear and once again the scout is behind or at least beside the heavy who is disoriented/confused. SG blast with immediate strafe. Odds that the heavy jumps again are low so he turns. Another sg blast to the side/rear of the heavy. Usually dead heavy. Some fancy moves for a Newbro Scout! Lots of variables, but certainly possible! +1 If you have time, tell us about some of the fancy moves Newbro Heavies use when they see a Proto Scout :-) ptunk ptunk ptunk dead.... Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
castba Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 483	Posted - 2014.06.16 04:46:00 - [72] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: castba wrote: Scenario: scout gets a sg blast to the back of heavy, heavy jumps and turns but instead of standing still like an idiot after the first shot, the scout has also jumped forward on an angle. Heavy loses scout due to expecting the enemy to the rear and once again the scout is behind or at least beside the heavy who is disoriented/confused. SG blast with immediate strafe. Odds that the heavy jumps again are low so he turns. Another sg blast to the side/rear of the heavy. Usually dead heavy. Some fancy moves for a Newbro Scout! Lots of variables, but certainly possible! +1 If you have time, tell us about some of the fancy moves Newbro Heavies use when they see a Proto Scout :-) Exactly my point. As stated, I don't see many proto heavies jump turning, let alone newbro heavies. Actually, perhaps the main point is any newbro, regardless or suit/role us going to die. A lot.
Vicious Minotaur Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 887	Posted - 2014.06.16 05:10:00 - [73] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: If you have time, tell us about some of the fancy moves Newbro Heavies use when they see a Proto Scout :-) I've nothing to do... Might as well give some of my experience as a newbro heavy... Well, perhaps not newbro, but rather when I use my low-tier, moneymaking gear. (Basically, what a newbro has, but with better cores and DUST experience.) When I encounter a proto shotgun/CQC scout in my newbro-equivalent gear, there are generally three 1v1 scenarios: 1) scout gets the jump on me. 2) I get the jump on the scout. 3) we mutually surprise each other. For option 1), odds are that I die and never see the attacker until the death screen. Also possible is that I manage to see the attacker and attempt to defend myself. Either A) I get out strafed and die; B) I deter scout, but scout escapes; or C) I kill scout. All involve flailing around (jumping, strafing, pirouetting), trying to ascertain the direction the attack happens from, and maybe shooting wildly. Regardless, proto scout has the odds in their favor, as it should be. For scenario 2), odds are "little" 'ol me wins. As it should be. (What sort of scout lets a heavy sneak up on them?) For 3), either A) I get a buckshot to the face and lose; B) make some swiss cheese and get a +50; or C) scout evades. Given that it is a proto scout, C) may be most common, second being A). Seems fair. For all of the above, keep in mind: I don't use proto gear, mainly standard. Everything I use is comparable to what a newbro heavy has, except ~10 percent better. Also, I use Minmatar/Caldari Sentinels; level 5. Scouts, regardless of tier, are the bane of my existence. I'd say actual newbro heavies have it worse than I. Perhaps if I used plate stacking Amarr/Gallente Sentinels I'd be singing a different tune... But I don't. As it stands, this Fatty fears actual scouts. As it should be. I am a minotaur.
Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy 1395	Posted - 2014.06.16 05:59:00 - [74] - Quote Vicious Minotaur wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: If you have time, tell us about some of the fancy moves Newbro Heavies use when they see a Proto Scout :-) I've nothing to do... Might as well give some of my experience as a newbro heavy... Well, perhaps not newbro, but rather when I use my low-tier, moneymaking gear. (Basically, what a newbro has, but with better cores and DUST experience.) When I encounter a proto shotgun/CQC scout in my newbro-equivalent gear, there are generally three 1v1 scenarios: 1) scout gets the jump on me. 2) I get the jump on the scout. 3) we mutually surprise each other. For option 1), odds are that I die and never see the attacker until the death screen. Also possible is that I manage to see the attacker and attempt to defend myself. Either A) I get out strafed and die; B) I deter scout, but scout escapes; or C) I kill scout. All involve flailing around (jumping, strafing, pirouetting), trying to ascertain the direction the attack happens from, and maybe shooting wildly. Regardless, proto scout has the odds in their favor, as it should be. For scenario 2), odds are "little" 'ol me wins. As it should be. (What sort of scout lets a heavy sneak up on them?) For 3), either A) I get a buckshot to the face and lose; B) make some swiss cheese and get a +50; or C) scout evades. Given that it is a proto scout, C) may be most common, second being A). Seems fair. For all of the above, keep in mind: I don't use proto gear, mainly standard. Everything I use is comparable to what a newbro heavy has, except ~10 percent better. Also, I use Minmatar/Caldari Sentinels; level 5. Scouts, regardless of tier, are the bane of my existence. I'd say actual newbro heavies have it worse than I. Perhaps if I used plate stacking Amarr/Gallente Sentinels I'd be singing a different tune... But I don't. As it stands, this Fatty fears actual scouts. As it should be. Nope we sing a tune quite similar to yours but the biased gentleman thinks that winning 80 percent of his heavy encounters isn't enough he must win ALL fights with a heavy... Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
Llast 326 An Arkhos 3663	Posted - 2014.06.16 06:28:00 - [75] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Last I tested, heavies and scouts have no difference in rotation speed. I'll film and time on a capture card next time I get on. we are talking about plated vs unplated turn speed not native turn speed Now I may be off in this reasoning butGÇª If native speed is the same and percentage of plates applies to base movement and then affects the turn speed would this not mean that the scout is penalized more for plates on turn speed than the Heavy? Plated Heavy turns faster than Plated Scout? I know big IF on how the percentage is appliedGÇª Of course if the penalty is applied to Native turn speed for both parties than we still have faster turning Cal and Min Heavies/ScoutsGÇª and those of use little folks who only fit FerrosGÇª oh and crazy rep based Gal Sentinels. Or I am rambling on about things KRRROOOOOOM
Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy 1396	Posted - 2014.06.16 06:35:00 - [76] - Quote Llast 326 wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Last I tested, heavies and scouts have no difference in rotation speed. I'll film and time on a capture card next time I get on. we are talking about plated vs unplated turn speed not native turn speed Now I may be off in this reasoning butGÇª If native speed is the same and percentage of plates applies to base movement and then affects the turn speed would this not mean that the scout is penalized more for plates on turn speed than the Heavy? Plated Heavy turns faster than Plated Scout? I know big IF on how the percentage is appliedGÇª Of course if the penalty is applied to Native turn speed for both parties than we still have faster turning Cal and Min Heavies/ScoutsGÇª and those of use little folks who only fit FerrosGÇª oh and crazy rep based Gal Sentinels. Or I am rambling on about things Lemme cler it up for ya... All suit turn at the exact same speed for a set sensitivity BUT but plated reduce that turn speed depending on the % of movement penalty... so yes a full rep gal sentinel that being said tho the she gal setinel will be MUCH more susceptible the alpha of the SG Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
Atiim NoGameNoLife 9498	Posted - 2014.06.16 06:37:00 - [77] - Quote Has anyone done tests to see if the X and Y sensitivity settings have the capability to increase rotation speed? Amarrians would prefer you be faithful... I'd rather you be logical. Proud defender of Ishukone Corporation. -HAND
Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy 1396	Posted - 2014.06.16 06:40:00 - [78] - Quote Atiim wrote: Has anyone done tests to see if the X and Y sensitivity settings have the capability to increase rotation speed? Unlike other folk I'll be honest yes increasing the sensitivity WILL increase turn speed, BUT a non plated user at the same sensitivity will still turn faster then the plate user. Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
Lorhak Gannarsein Legio DXIV 3572	Posted - 2014.06.16 07:08:00 - [79] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: Atiim wrote: Has anyone done tests to see if the X and Y sensitivity settings have the capability to increase rotation speed? Unlike other folk I'll be honest yes increasing the sensitivity WILL increase turn speed, BUT a non plated user at the same sensitivity will still turn faster then the plate user. This. Even the prenerf basic plates were noticeable in CQC on my assault. I like the idea of reducing Sentinel turn speed. CCP Rattati Best Dev AmLogi 5 GÇó AmAss 5 GÇó AmSent 4 GÇó CalScout 4 (2 days left...)
Lorhak Gannarsein Legio DXIV 3572	Posted - 2014.06.16 08:03:00 - [80] - Quote Llast 326 wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Last I tested, heavies and scouts have no difference in rotation speed. I'll film and time on a capture card next time I get on. we are talking about plated vs unplated turn speed not native turn speed Now I may be off in this reasoning butGÇª If native speed is the same and percentage of plates applies to base movement and then affects the turn speed would this not mean that the scout is penalized more for plates on turn speed than the Heavy? Plated Heavy turns faster than Plated Scout? I know big IF on how the percentage is appliedGÇª Of course if the penalty is applied to Native turn speed for both parties than we still have faster turning Cal and Min Heavies/ScoutsGÇª and those of use little folks who only fit FerrosGÇª oh and crazy rep based Gal Sentinels. Or I am rambling on about things They have the same rotation, which means that while the actual speed decrease is greater on the scout, turn speed being universally 50 degrees/sec (arbitrary number) if each suit was stacking four plates that reduced rotational speed by 10% per plate they'd have an equivalent penalty taking them to 30 degrees/sec. The movement speed penalty percentage would be identical too, but the actual penalty would be larger in terms of raw numbers on the scout, though again the proportionate difference is identical. CCP Rattati Best Dev AmLogi 5 GÇó AmAss 5 GÇó AmSent 4 GÇó CalScout 4 (2 days left...)

castba Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 483	Posted - 2014.06.16 08:23:00 - [81] - Quote Llast 326 wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Last I tested, heavies and scouts have no difference in rotation speed. I'll film and time on a capture card next time I get on. we are talking about plated vs unplated turn speed not native turn speed Now I may be off in this reasoning butGÇª If native speed is the same and percentage of plates applies to base movement and then affects the turn speed would this not mean that the scout is penalized more for plates on turn speed than the Heavy? Plated Heavy turns faster than Plated Scout? I know big IF on how the percentage is appliedGÇª Of course if the penalty is applied to Native turn speed for both parties than we still have faster turning Cal and Min Heavies/ScoutsGÇª and those of use little folks who only fit FerrosGÇª oh and crazy rep based Gal Sentinels. Or I am rambling on about things Ferroscale plates have no movement penalty which is why they are the plates best suited to scouts.
Velociraptor antirrhopus Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 199	Posted - 2014.06.16 08:51:00 - [82] - Quote Lol this thread. Seriously. Heavies > Scouts My thoughts on Hotfix Alpha: First I noticed a scout running from my AR. Then a heavy. Then a COMBAT RIFLE USER. CCP +1
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1915	Posted - 2014.06.16 12:16:00 - [83] - Quote Atiim wrote: Has anyone done tests to see if the X and Y sensitivity settings have the capability to increase rotation speed? To answer your question, absolutely. Further, I believe turn speeds are a constant ... Does LightFrame+KinCats = LightFrame = MedFrame = HeavyFrame = HeavyFrame+Plates ? Some say, exactly the same no matter what (myself included) Some say, tiny % difference among frames. Some say, tiny % difference based upon plates. Some say, major % difference based upon plates. Arkena's going to record testing today. Should settle this. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1915	Posted - 2014.06.16 12:19:00 - [84] - Quote Velociraptor antirrhopus wrote: Lol this thread. Seriously. Heavies > Scouts I remember you! Says: Minmatar Scouts are fine. Says: Nerf REs. I won't ask you to solve the riddle, but tell us, what are your thoughts on current Heavy Rotation Speed? Too fast, Too slow, Dunno? Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Llast 326 An Arkhos 3664	Posted - 2014.06.16 16:49:00 - [85] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: Llast 326 wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Last I tested, heavies and scouts have no difference in rotation speed. I'll film and time on a capture card next time I get on. we are talking about plated vs unplated turn speed not native turn speed Now I may be off in this reasoning butGÇª If native speed is the same and percentage of plates applies to base movement and then affects the turn speed would this not mean that the scout is penalized more for plates on turn speed than the Heavy? Plated Heavy turns faster than Plated Scout? I know big IF on how the percentage is appliedGÇª Of course if the penalty is applied to Native turn speed for both parties than we still have faster turning Cal and Min Heavies/ScoutsGÇª and those of use little folks who only fit FerrosGÇª oh and crazy rep based Gal Sentinels. Or I am rambling on about things They have the same rotation, which means that while the actual speed decrease is greater on the scout, turn speed being universally 50 degrees/sec (arbitrary number) if each suit was stacking four plates that reduced rotational speed by 10% per plate they'd have an equivalent penalty taking them to 30 degrees/sec. The movement speed penalty percentage would be identical too, but the actual penalty would be larger in terms of raw numbers on the scout, though again the proportionate difference is identical. This is how it should be working. Without getting into the oddity of everyone turning at the same speed. What my sleep deprived mind was rambling about was essentially the question: Is the penalty to speed being applied properly? It would not be the first time Plates Speed Penalty was applied incorrectly KRRROOOOOOM


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