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Vitharr Foebane
Terminal Courtesy
1389
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Posted - 2014.06.15 19:01:00 -
[1] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Given
* Newbro Scout (g-1, 110 / 190 HP) w/ Standard Shotgun.
* Proto Heavy (gk.0, 560 / 1100 HP) w/ Boundless HMG.
Restriction
* Newbro Scout must not use Remote Explosives.
* Proto Heavy must use "mid-air pirouette" when first hit.
Solve
* Newbro Scout has managed to flank lone Proto Heavy; by what steps can Newbro Scout defeat this mark?
Bonus One
* Rework above scenario using Newbro Scout m-1 (120 / 85 HP) w/ Standard Nova Knives.
Bonus Two
* Reversing roles, what specific difficulties do Newbro Heavies face when engaging Proto Scouts?
Rigged scenario is rigged. Allow me to counter with an equally rigged game Scout has proto RR on manus peak and heavy has HMG and is in the middle of the open no cover what so ever. tell me a way for the heavy to win 
Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV
I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
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Vitharr Foebane
Terminal Courtesy
1390
|
Posted - 2014.06.15 19:43:00 -
[2] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Vitharr Foebane wrote:Rigged scenario is rigged. Allow me to counter with an equally rigged game Scout has proto RR on manus peak and heavy has HMG and is in the middle of the open no cover what so ever. tell me a way for the heavy to win Play by the rules or don't play at all ... There's nothing rigged or wrong about a low-level Scout flanking a Proto Heavy.
Nothing rigged huh? you gave a low sp scout only short range weapons to deal with a suit that is designed to mulch everything in its optimal range... and to add insult to injury you denied the poor scout of one of its greatest tools the RE. I must admit i'm starting to enjoy the drivel you are vomiting onto the forums. It's like watching one of those reality shows, makes you wonder what the idiots are gonna do next 
Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV
I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
|
Vitharr Foebane
Terminal Courtesy
1390
|
Posted - 2014.06.15 20:04:00 -
[3] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Vitharr Foebane wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Vitharr Foebane wrote:Rigged scenario is rigged. Allow me to counter with an equally rigged game Scout has proto RR on manus peak and heavy has HMG and is in the middle of the open no cover what so ever. tell me a way for the heavy to win Play by the rules or don't play at all ... There's nothing rigged or wrong about a low-level Scout flanking a Proto Heavy. Nothing rigged huh? you gave a low sp scout only short range weapons to deal with a suit that is designed to mulch everything in its optimal range... and to add insult to injury you denied the poor scout of one of its greatest tools the RE. I must admit i'm starting to enjoy the drivel you are vomiting onto the forums. It's like watching one of those reality shows, makes you wonder what the idiots are gonna do next Scouts have been flanking and back-stabbing Heavies since the beginning.
Yes they have and yes they STILL do. However flanking and backstabbing doesn't just mean SG and KN. When I use my scout I back stab with a LR by sneaking behind enemy line and hitting em from surprise angles. Am I a bad scout for not limiting my self to the SG NK stereotype?
Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV
I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
|
Vitharr Foebane
Terminal Courtesy
1390
|
Posted - 2014.06.15 20:16:00 -
[4] - Quote
One Eyed King wrote:Vitharr Foebane wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Vitharr Foebane wrote:Rigged scenario is rigged. Allow me to counter with an equally rigged game Scout has proto RR on manus peak and heavy has HMG and is in the middle of the open no cover what so ever. tell me a way for the heavy to win Play by the rules or don't play at all ... There's nothing rigged or wrong about a low-level Scout flanking a Proto Heavy. Nothing rigged huh? you gave a low sp scout only short range weapons to deal with a suit that is designed to mulch everything in its optimal range... and to add insult to injury you denied the poor scout of one of its greatest tools the RE. I must admit i'm starting to enjoy the drivel you are vomiting onto the forums. It's like watching one of those reality shows, makes you wonder what the idiots are gonna do next This sounds like more of a exercise in tactical philosophy. MacGyver wasn't cool because he could make awesome gadgets with unlimited resources, he was awesome because he used his brain given the limited implements and circumstances he was in. If you don't want to find creative tactics thats fine, but don't criticize the game because it is difficult.
Even MacGyver needed the proper tools to succeed. To exclude REs is like taking away MacGyver's paperclip and asking him to repeat the same feat
Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV
I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
|
Vitharr Foebane
Terminal Courtesy
1390
|
Posted - 2014.06.15 20:21:00 -
[5] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Vitharr Foebane wrote:Yes they have and yes they STILL do. However flanking and backstabbing doesn't just mean SG and KN. When I use my scout I back stab with a LR by sneaking behind enemy line and hitting em from surprise angles. Am I a bad scout for not limiting my self to the SG NK stereotype? Scouts have always used Low-Range / High Alpha weapons. Low-Range / High Alpha weapons aren't supposed to be a handicap. The fact that you think they are a handicap says alot about the state of things. So are you advocating for SG / NK buffs or Heavy nerfs?
there you go making assumptions again I use LR because its Amarr tech if we had an Amarr heavy weapon I wouldn't even be in this conversation right now. BTW a PRO SG already does ridiculous damage and KN already oneshot everything but a TANKED heavy
Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV
I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
|
Vitharr Foebane
Terminal Courtesy
1390
|
Posted - 2014.06.15 20:29:00 -
[6] - Quote
Llast 326 wrote:
What the scenario seems to be highlighting to me is that Alpha Damage weapons are struggling against the Alpha eHP models using high DPS weapons. We can call the scenario rigged all we want but this happens in game, it happens with players of all skill levels in all sorts of positions.
So would the same problem arise from a new Heavy against a new Scout using the same scenario?
Now this is interesting... I like to propose a modification to your game. Make two characters using new character sp only AND THEN compare the two fits via protofits.com
Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV
I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
|
Vitharr Foebane
Terminal Courtesy
1390
|
Posted - 2014.06.15 21:02:00 -
[7] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Vicious Minotaur wrote:
I'd say that your "problem" is arbitrary, overly restricted, and is designed to be biased. "Solving" it would achieve nothing.
This arbitrary "problem" prompts us to focus on an actual problem, the Pirouetting Heavy. You and I may not posses the tools to solve the "problem" within its restricted bounds. But others may possess the appropriate tools to help us do so ... @ Rattati Did you know that the rotation speed of a Biotic Scout is exactly the same as that of a Sentinel running purely complex plates?
THAT IS A PURE F*CKING LIE! I know for a fact that the movement penalty on plates applies to turn speed. At first I took you for a misguided fool... Now I see your true colors, and I WILL NOT stand for you biased bile any longer. There is NOTHING wrong with the heavy and NOTHING wrong with the HMG.
Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV
I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
|
Vitharr Foebane
Terminal Courtesy
1391
|
Posted - 2014.06.15 21:19:00 -
[8] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Vitharr Foebane wrote:
THAT IS A PURE F*CKING LIE! I know for a fact that the movement penalty on plates applies to turn speed. At first I took you for a misguided fool... Now I see your true colors, and I WILL NOT stand for you biased bile any longer. There is NOTHING wrong with the heavy and NOTHING wrong with the HMG.
I totally agree with you ... it is absolute bullsh*t. But its the truth. Test it yourself. I just did. Once you discover that I'm right, do you think maybe we can be good friends? Maybe you can go back over all your posts and ranting and points ... and fix them?
Prove it I'm in game now I'm not hiding behind an alt and i don't bite ill happily accept a squad invite
EDIT: dont even bother yeah it does affect turn speed
Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV
I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
|
Vitharr Foebane
Terminal Courtesy
1391
|
Posted - 2014.06.15 21:25:00 -
[9] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Last I tested, heavies and scouts have no difference in rotation speed.
I'll film and time on a capture card next time I get on.
we are talking about plated vs unplated turn speed not native turn speed
Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV
I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
|
Vitharr Foebane
Terminal Courtesy
1391
|
Posted - 2014.06.15 21:36:00 -
[10] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Vitharr Foebane wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Last I tested, heavies and scouts have no difference in rotation speed.
I'll film and time on a capture card next time I get on. we are talking about plated vs unplated turn speed not native turn speed Then I will test with plates. I don't believe a few percent slowdown on something that you can adjust with sensitivity is exactly crippling, though. Is even a 4 complex plated sentinel likely to die because the turn speed is marginally lower?
it is in a CQC situaltion as in a SG in its optimal
Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV
I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
|
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Vitharr Foebane
Terminal Courtesy
1391
|
Posted - 2014.06.15 21:59:00 -
[11] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Vitharr Foebane wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:
Then I will test with plates.
I don't believe a few percent slowdown on something that you can adjust with sensitivity is exactly crippling, though. Is even a 4 complex plated sentinel likely to die because the turn speed is marginally lower?
it is in a CQC situaltion as in a SG in its optimal Really? The difference probably comes to something like a quarter of a second, if that. You're looking at a second or so to do a 180, and then -if- plates affect your turn speed then in a worst case scenario it'll take 20% longer. Is that really life or death when it takes at least four direct hit shotgun rounds to kill? Assuming the scout has perfect aim that'll take him over 3 seconds. That leaves 2 seconds for you to kill him with a weapon that has a generous spread compensating for the jumping around a scout might do, and a very, very high DPS.
it is when a scout is that close... remember they can strafe jump and do a number of things to throw off a heavies aim all the while sinking shells into the heavy
Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV
I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
|
Vitharr Foebane
Terminal Courtesy
1391
|
Posted - 2014.06.15 22:24:00 -
[12] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:@ Arkena / Rattati / Vitharr
I'm under the impression that plates have no effect whatsoever on rotation speed. The only factor which impacts rotation speed is input sensitivty.
@ Everyone
200 HP or 2000 HP, we all pirouette at the exact same rate. If this strikes you as absurd, imagine how our Newbro Scout feels. If this strikes as you as 'fine' you're probably a Heavy.
I'm in game I've tested and yes it slows your turn down but you obviously want the heavy to take hours to do a 180 and our HMG to shoot gummi bears so yeah i'm gonna call you out on your cute attempt at propaganda AGAIN
Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV
I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
|
Vitharr Foebane
Terminal Courtesy
1391
|
Posted - 2014.06.15 22:49:00 -
[13] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Vitharr Foebane wrote:
I'm in game I've tested and yes it slows your turn down but you obviously want the heavy to take hours to do a 180 and our HMG to shoot gummi bears so yeah i'm gonna call you out on your cute attempt at propaganda AGAIN
Could we leave the complaining about the 'other side' talking 'propaganda' or 'only thinking its fine because they're a heavy'? This goes for both of you. Could you film said test? It doesn't have to be a capture card, a stable phone camera would work fine. I'm not on atm but I'll be filming properly tomorrow to settle this.
I apologize for you having to record if I could I would have hours ago >.>
Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV
I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
|
Vitharr Foebane
Terminal Courtesy
1393
|
Posted - 2014.06.16 04:24:00 -
[14] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:castba wrote:
Scenario: scout gets a sg blast to the back of heavy, heavy jumps and turns but instead of standing still like an idiot after the first shot, the scout has also jumped forward on an angle. Heavy loses scout due to expecting the enemy to the rear and once again the scout is behind or at least beside the heavy who is disoriented/confused. SG blast with immediate strafe. Odds that the heavy jumps again are low so he turns. Another sg blast to the side/rear of the heavy. Usually dead heavy.
Some fancy moves for a Newbro Scout! Lots of variables, but certainly possible! +1 If you have time, tell us about some of the fancy moves Newbro Heavies use when they see a Proto Scout :-)
ptunk ptunk ptunk dead....
Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV
I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
|
Vitharr Foebane
Terminal Courtesy
1395
|
Posted - 2014.06.16 05:59:00 -
[15] - Quote
Vicious Minotaur wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:
If you have time, tell us about some of the fancy moves Newbro Heavies use when they see a Proto Scout :-)
I've nothing to do... Might as well give some of my experience as a newbro heavy... Well, perhaps not newbro, but rather when I use my low-tier, moneymaking gear. (Basically, what a newbro has, but with better cores and DUST experience.) When I encounter a proto shotgun/CQC scout in my newbro-equivalent gear, there are generally three 1v1 scenarios: 1) scout gets the jump on me. 2) I get the jump on the scout. 3) we mutually surprise each other. For option 1), odds are that I die and never see the attacker until the death screen. Also possible is that I manage to see the attacker and attempt to defend myself. Either A) I get out strafed and die; B) I deter scout, but scout escapes; or C) I kill scout. All involve flailing around (jumping, strafing, pirouetting), trying to ascertain the direction the attack happens from, and maybe shooting wildly. Regardless, proto scout has the odds in their favor, as it should be. For scenario 2), odds are "little" 'ol me wins. As it should be. (What sort of scout lets a heavy sneak up on them?) For 3), either A) I get a buckshot to the face and lose; B) make some swiss cheese and get a +50; or C) scout evades. Given that it is a proto scout, C) may be most common, second being A). Seems fair. For all of the above, keep in mind: I don't use proto gear, mainly standard. Everything I use is comparable to what a newbro heavy has, except ~10 percent better. Also, I use Minmatar/Caldari Sentinels; level 5. Scouts, regardless of tier, are the bane of my existence. I'd say actual newbro heavies have it worse than I. Perhaps if I used plate stacking Amarr/Gallente Sentinels I'd be singing a different tune... But I don't. As it stands, this Fatty fears actual scouts. As it should be.
Nope we sing a tune quite similar to yours but the biased gentleman thinks that winning 80 percent of his heavy encounters isn't enough he must win ALL fights with a heavy...
Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV
I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
|
Vitharr Foebane
Terminal Courtesy
1396
|
Posted - 2014.06.16 06:35:00 -
[16] - Quote
Llast 326 wrote:Vitharr Foebane wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Last I tested, heavies and scouts have no difference in rotation speed.
I'll film and time on a capture card next time I get on. we are talking about plated vs unplated turn speed not native turn speed Now I may be off in this reasoning butGǪ If native speed is the same and percentage of plates applies to base movement and then affects the turn speed would this not mean that the scout is penalized more for plates on turn speed than the Heavy? Plated Heavy turns faster than Plated Scout? I know big IF on how the percentage is appliedGǪ Of course if the penalty is applied to Native turn speed for both parties than we still have faster turning Cal and Min Heavies/ScoutsGǪ and those of use little folks who only fit FerrosGǪ oh and crazy rep based Gal Sentinels. Or I am rambling on about things
Lemme cler it up for ya... All suit turn at the exact same speed for a set sensitivity BUT but plated reduce that turn speed depending on the % of movement penalty... so yes a full rep gal sentinel that being said tho the she gal setinel will be MUCH more susceptible the alpha of the SG
Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV
I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
|
Vitharr Foebane
Terminal Courtesy
1396
|
Posted - 2014.06.16 06:40:00 -
[17] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Has anyone done tests to see if the X and Y sensitivity settings have the capability to increase rotation speed?
Unlike other folk I'll be honest yes increasing the sensitivity WILL increase turn speed, BUT a non plated user at the same sensitivity will still turn faster then the plate user.
Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV
I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
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