DUST Search - So ... Heavies

Adipem Nothi wrote:

Himiko Kuronaga wrote:

So if you don't know anything, how about not offering solutions?

That's not how the process works, good sir.

Scouts were over-performing; when it came time to fix them:
* Scouts acknowledged that they were OP and offered solutions.
* Non-Scouts and Anti-Scouts offered their own solutions.
* Rattati / Logibro weighed feedback and delivered an arguably even-handed fix.
* Had Scouts been nerfed to uselessness, Scouts themselves wouldn't have been to blame.

Anti-Infantry Vehicles were over-performing; when it came time to fix them:
* Most Pilots insisted that everything was fine and refused to participate.
* Non-Pilots and Anti-Pilots offered solutions to the very real problem.
* Rattati / Logibro now have to "guess" at a fix due to lack of consensus.
* If Tanks and Birds are nerfed to useless, Pilots themselves are to blame.

So which path will Heavies choose?

I'm willing to bet you'll dig your heels and follow the Pilot's herpa-derp precedent. This isn't a troll post or a flame post. I'm simply sharing with you the input I'll be offering to Rattati when the time comes to address your over-performance. You have every opportunity to do the same. In the end, if your gear gets nerfed to useless, who will be to blame?

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Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1836	Posted - 2014.06.14 21:24:00 - [91] - Quote @ Rynoceros A fair point; two sides to every equation. Equity * HMG Heavy spots Scout (or Scouts) in range. Wins. * SG / NK Scout sneaks up behind Heavy. Wins. Inequity * HMG Heavy spots Scout (or Scouts) in range. Wins. * SG / NK Scout sneaks up behind Heavy. Wins, maybe. Can you help me solve this equation? Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy 1384	Posted - 2014.06.14 21:30:00 - [92] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Rynoceros A fair point; two sides to every equation. Equity * HMG Heavy spots Scout (or Scouts) in range. Wins. * SG / NK Scout sneaks up behind Heavy. Wins. Inequity * HMG Heavy spots Scout (or Scouts) in range. Wins. * SG / NK Scout sneaks up behind Heavy. Wins, USUALLY. Can you help me solve this equation? Solved Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
Rynoceros Rise Of Old Dudes 3898	Posted - 2014.06.14 21:35:00 - [93] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Rynoceros A fair point; two sides to every equation. Equity * HMG Heavy spots Scout (or Scouts) in range. Wins. * SG / NK Scout sneaks up behind lone Heavy. Wins. Inequity * HMG Heavy spots Scout (or Scouts) in range. Wins. * SG / NK Scout sneaks up behind lone Heavy. Wins, maybe. Can you help me solve this equation? Define ALL variables. If Scout is using its natural abilities (Speed & Stealth) it should not be spotted within HMG range, before using a weapon of lesser range. If Scout uses its natural abilities to its advantage it can 2-4 shot a proper Heavy while using effective strafing and use of mobility (jumping) to evade 90% of a Heavy's wild, disoriented spraying. If a Heavy can see you, so can anybody else. Those somebodies are probably wielding CRs or RRs and will put down a Scout in even less time than a HMG. The HMG is a Kill Stealer. You may see it on the Kill Feed more often, but it's those guys with rifles putting them into position to cash in on an easy Win(s). PSN: The_Rynoceros Destiny beta SoonGäó Console Master Race
Right-wing Extremist Nos Nothi 136	Posted - 2014.06.14 22:42:00 - [94] - Quote Oh, look! A thread! I have something to say about heavies! Let me post in it! Basic heavy suits and Sentinel suits should not be able to equip light weapons. At all. That is what Commandos are for. There is a reason Commandos have A) Less eHP than a Basic Heavy is capable of, and B) No damage resists like the Sentinels have. The reason is that either, in conjunction with Fine Rifles, would make the Commando overpowered and create a virtually unassailable target in many situations. The Basic Heavy with a Rail, Scrambler or Laser Rifle (and to a lesser extent, Assault Combat Rifles) has enough eHP to shrug off small arms fire from a distance while leisurely killing whatever attempts to approach him. In close quarters, he has more than enough eHP to win by attrition against any lighter suit. The Sentinel with the same weapons doesn't just shrug off distant small arms fire, he laughs heartily. And at close range, his damage resistance makes it quite the one-sided fight. Add to this that if there's a Caldari Scout in his squad, you're not getting anywhere near him to begin with because he sees you coming, even if you're a shotgun or nova knife scout. The Heavy and Sentinel suits have two roles. Either AV (Forge Guns) or AI (HMG). Sidearms are fine for a backup, when the HMG is out of ammo and you don't have time to reload, or the unfortunate instance where you're FGing and the enemy gets in close. But running fine rifles on Heavy/Sentinel suits is out-of-balance and needs to stop. Not to mention being just another reason not to run an Assault suit. This can't have been intended. And if a single Dev posts to say that it is, I will take my money and blow it on some other developer's products (no more AUR for boosters, no more Eve accounts). Jaceon Pale-eye. Soon to be the deadliest prick in OSG. Unless Mal says no :(
Cogadh Draco warravens Final Resolution. 28	Posted - 2014.06.14 23:56:00 - [95] - Quote HEAVY NERF, HEAVY NERF, HEAVY F***KING NERF is all I see... I am not a good heavy, hell a few Niyan San and Molon Labe corpies can attest to that when I get peeved off at 'em... But crying out nerf on a class that has been on a constant up hill down hill set of nerfs and buffs, why not leave heavies and their guns alone and ask CCP to buff assault classes huh? Here is a few examples why heavies are fine the way they are: -HMGs already have a crappy range and are basically meant for close range-semi mid range combat -Heavy suits are walking bricks with painted targets begging for bullets(unless your a speed heavy, but even then not much different) -Our turn speed is fine as it is... SLOW If you lot wanna nerf something, nerf the 'combat' shotguns: -Turn 'em into pump action so you have to take a sec to chamber a round in between shots to reduce fire rate -Widen the shot spread so scouts have to get up real close -Also if the fire rate is gonna get reduced, amp the damage a little to make it 'fair' on the user That is just an example of a nerf that might seem ok I guess. BUT NO TOUCHY THE HEAVIES FOR A NERF!!!
castba Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 481	Posted - 2014.06.15 00:02:00 - [96] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: So if you don't know anything, how about not offering solutions? That's not how the process works, good sir. Scouts were over-performing; when it came time to fix them: * Scouts acknowledged that they were OP and offered solutions. * Non-Scouts and Anti-Scouts offered their own solutions. * Rattati / Logibro weighed feedback and delivered an arguably even-handed fix. * Had Scouts been nerfed to uselessness, Scouts themselves wouldn't have been to blame. Anti-Infantry Vehicles were over-performing; when it came time to fix them: * Most Pilots insisted that everything was fine and refused to participate. * Non-Pilots and Anti-Pilots offered solutions to the very real problem. * Rattati / Logibro now have to "guess" at a fix due to lack of consensus. * If Tanks and Birds are nerfed to useless, Pilots themselves are to blame. So which path will Heavies choose? I'm willing to bet you'll dig your heels and follow the Pilot's herpa-derp precedent. This isn't a troll post or a flame post. I'm simply sharing with you the input I'll be offering to Rattati when the time comes to address your over-performance. You have every opportunity to do the same. In the end, if your gear gets nerfed to useless, who will be to blame? May I make a suggestion, Sir? Play as a heavy, and only a heavy, with heavy weaponry for your next 1500 kills (at least). Please play all maps and all game modes, mostly alone. Please then come back and report what you think would be suitable nerf/buffs for a heavy.
Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p 453	Posted - 2014.06.15 00:11:00 - [97] - Quote I use a militia minmitar heavy in spam bush, and it is so damn OP, that anyone who has a prototype sentinel and complains should be publicly humiliated What all Minjas are thinking as they play...
Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p 453	Posted - 2014.06.15 00:17:00 - [98] - Quote Rynoceros wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Rynoceros A fair point; two sides to every equation. Equity * HMG Heavy spots Scout (or Scouts) in range. Wins. * SG / NK Scout sneaks up behind lone Heavy. Wins. Inequity * HMG Heavy spots Scout (or Scouts) in range. Wins. * SG / NK Scout sneaks up behind lone Heavy. Wins, maybe. Can you help me solve this equation? Define ALL variables. If Scout is using its natural abilities (Speed & Stealth) it should not be spotted within HMG range, before using a weapon of lesser range. If Scout uses its natural abilities to its advantage it can 2-4 shot a proper Heavy while using effective strafing and use of mobility (jumping) to evade 90% of a Heavy's wild, disoriented spraying. If a Heavy can see you, so can anybody else. Those somebodies are probably wielding CRs or RRs and will put down a Scout in even less time than a HMG. The HMG is a Kill Stealer. You may see it on the Kill Feed more often, but it's those guys with rifles putting them into position to cash in on an easy Win(s). So you're saying that heavies are balanced because they can't aim very well, and by definition, are a less skilled role, and therefore should dominate someone who has an advantage and can aim better? This is some pretty silly logic. What all Minjas are thinking as they play...
Cogadh Draco warravens Final Resolution. 29	Posted - 2014.06.15 00:18:00 - [99] - Quote Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p wrote: I use a militia minmitar heavy in spam bush, and it is so damn OP, that anyone who has a prototype sentinel and complains should be publicly humiliated Lol, I've seen Minmatar heavies shame shouts by outrunning them and luring them into corner traps. So friggen hilarious to see a scout spam remotes only to watch the Minmatar heavy just run at their face and spray 'em with lead.
Argetlam Thorson Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 61	Posted - 2014.06.15 02:23:00 - [100] - Quote Right-wing Extremist wrote: Oh, look! A thread! I have something to say about heavies! Let me post in it! Basic heavy suits and Sentinel suits should not be able to equip light weapons. At all. The whole point of Eve (and Dust) is being able to play however you want. Its a sandbox. If I can carry an M60, I could easily carry an M16. The suit is made to be strong and slow. If you want to restrict those using light weapons on heavy suits (something I will agree is scrubby and definitely detest), give them some penalty. Don't make it not an option to do it. I think if the fire rate was slower than normal (fat fingers?) or the dispersion was increased (fatty can't aim? Could possibly be done by causing the reverse effect of sharpshooter skills?) then that would be a good way to make people think twice about using that RR on a fat suit, but still allow them to if they think they can make it work.

Llast 326 An Arkhos 3643	Posted - 2014.06.15 02:32:00 - [101] - Quote I remember when we were both UP I'd stick up for my Fatbros they'd stick up for usGÇª KRRROOOOOOM
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1846	Posted - 2014.06.15 04:22:00 - [102] - Quote Llast 326 wrote: I remember when we were both UP I'd stick up for my Fatbros they'd stick up for usGÇª Now that you mention it, it is rather odd that not a single, eloquent Heavy interrupted the RE discussions to say ... "Hold that thought, Rattati! Short of using REs, a newbro Scout who's flanked my high-end Heavy quite literally has zero odds of killing me. You see, his standard knives or shotgun can't kill me faster than I can pirouette and kill him. But if he has REs, he has a chance; REs narrow the gap between the low-end Scout and high-end Heavy much like the monstrously powerful HMG narrows the gap between low-end Heavy and high-end Scout." In fact, all I read from Heavies amounted to nerf REs harder, add blinking lights and beeping sounds, etc. etc. etc. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 5265	Posted - 2014.06.15 04:22:00 - [103] - Quote IMHO: How to fix the Heavy Nerf Turn Speed Choose your HMG: High Damage, Low clip size OR Low Damage, High Clip Size. You can't have both. One for Breaching, and One for Assault. I think an HMG with Assault HMG damage and 530 Ammo (A roughly 25% increase) would be the latter version. And an HMG with Boundless damage and 320 ammo (You guessed it, 25% decrease) would be the former. For Comparison: New Freedom "Assault" HMG (Low damage): DPS is 633 base. DPC is 8426 New Boundless "Breach" HMG (High Damage): DPS is 792 Base. DPC is 6712 The Breach HMG would deal roughly 25% more damage for 25% less Damage in a clip. They can kill faster, but don't have the ability to chew through multiple targets without reloading. The Assault HMG would deal less damage, but contains 25% more damage in a clip. They can't kill as fast, but they can chew through multiple targets before reloading. Tactical Decision Time. If you can survive long enough, the Assault is the better choice. But if you REALLY need to kill 2-3 targets QUICKLY the Breach is the better option. EDIT: For teh lulz Suppression HMG Core "Suppression" HMG: DPS is 475 (11.88 a shot). DPC is 10098. Has an 850 round clip with massively reduced recoil, heat buildup and increased range. Accuracy is hell, but it has a wide dispersion and the ability to lay down SERIOUS suppression fire. Spray and Pray. Headed to Destiny, To Hell with CCP PSN: EVL_Elgost105 RIP Dust514 05/02/14 GG CCP
Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy 1387	Posted - 2014.06.15 04:42:00 - [104] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Llast 326 wrote: I remember when we were both UP I'd stick up for my Fatbros they'd stick up for usGÇª Now that you mention it, it is rather odd that not a single, eloquent Heavy interrupted the RE discussions to say ... "Hold that thought, Rattati! Short of using REs, a newbro Scout who's flanked my high-end Heavy quite literally has zero odds of killing me. You see, his standard knives or shotgun can't kill me faster than I can pirouette and kill him. But if he has REs, he has a chance; REs narrow the gap between the low-end Scout and high-end Heavy much like the monstrously powerful HMG narrows the gap between low-end Heavy and high-end Scout." Sadly, nothing at all like this from our old friends, the Heavies. Quite the opposite, in fact ... Nerf REs harder, 2 meter radius, 500 damage, add blinking lights, give them beeping sounds, etc etc etc. Vitharr Foebane wrote: Remotes are balanced if i let a scout get that close im usually dead anyway Just thought I'd drop by and remind ya how delusional and biased you are xD Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1846	Posted - 2014.06.15 04:45:00 - [105] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: Remotes are balanced if i let a scout get that close im usually dead anyway Just thought I'd drop by and remind ya how delusional and biased you are xD Is that what you told Rattati or is it something you said to us, here, earlier today? Perhaps you are not aware, but Remote Explosives are being nerfed by no small degree in Bravo. What would you say if I told you that your lumbering colleagues would have had REs nerfed even harder? Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Bormir1r Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 429	Posted - 2014.06.15 04:54:00 - [106] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: Eruditus 920 wrote: After months of the scout witch hunt I have known Fatties were up next. It is overdue. I was on the short end of a Fattie's HMG recently and the kill screen said 58 meters. This was a basic HMG. That is simply far too much range for that weapon to be effective. I was at full health. Close quarters, yeah ok. Almost 60 meters? No, you can't have both. From what I see in pubs, the majority run fat now. I can see why. Unless you were an untanked minmatar scout standing completely still im gonna call bll sht... Try Gal proto with a little more than 400 eHP at 50m.... "One does not simply" run 11.12 m/s. Oh wait, mk.0 Scouts do it... Oops.
Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy 1387	Posted - 2014.06.15 04:55:00 - [107] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: Remotes are balanced if i let a scout get that close im usually dead anyway Just thought I'd drop by and remind ya how delusional and biased you are xD Is that what you told Rattati or is it something you said to us, here, earlier today? Perhaps you are not aware, but Remote Explosives are being nerfed by no small degree in Bravo. What would you say if I told you that your lumbering colleagues would have had REs nerfed even harder? Incorrect they are getting BUFFED 1750 will kill almost any suit in the game. Are you upset that REs cant be frisbee nades anymore? Take that up with ALL suits not just heavies the med suits complained more then any heavy I know. But again you are biased and REFUSE to acknowledge your errors but I'm ok with that because the will always such folk in any game. Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
Bormir1r Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 429	Posted - 2014.06.15 05:05:00 - [108] - Quote Sum1ne Else wrote: Nocturnal Soul wrote: Turn speed So they get a shotgun to the back 3 times before they can turn? WTF It takes an average of 4-6 to kill most heavies....especially those gal heavies... "One does not simply" run 11.12 m/s. Oh wait, mk.0 Scouts do it... Oops.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1849	Posted - 2014.06.15 05:12:00 - [109] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: Incorrect they are getting BUFFED 1750 will kill almost any suit in the game. Are you upset that REs cant be frisbee nades anymore? Take that up with ALL suits not just heavies the med suits complained more then any heavy I know. But again you are biased and REFUSE to acknowledge your errors but I'm ok with that because the will always such folk in any game. Here are the actual numbers; note the original proposal. Here is the reason why the original proposal was changed. Here is the reason why the RE nerf came up in the first place. No, I'm not concerned about frisbees or lack of frisbees. I am concerned about the newbro Scout with newbro gear, who's flanked the Proto Heavy. Should he attack using his Standard Nova Knives or Shotgun? Should he open up with a Locus Grenade or Flux? Should he quietly deposit an RE at the Heavy's heels, cross his fingers and wait? 4 seconds. How many times can a Heavy pirouette in 4 seconds? In 4 seconds, how many times can an HMG kill and rekill a 300HP newbro Scout? Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Argetlam Thorson Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 61	Posted - 2014.06.15 20:27:00 - [110] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: What advise would you have me give? Charged knife shot to the back followed by a couple of rounds of CR (or a SG blast, if you want a heavy takedown suit) should do the trick. It worked great at taking down heavies before I got tired of instadying to shotgun Gal scouts from nowhere. Or get a RR and shoot the heavy anywhere from 45-90 meters away while strafing. Otherwise? Don't plan on going after heavies as a light suit. Its not a good idea. Stick to Ewar and ganking other scouts and mediums as a general rule.

Atiim NoGameNoLife 9483	Posted - 2014.06.15 22:29:00 - [111] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: 4 seconds. In 4 seconds, how many times can a Heavy pirouette? In 4 seconds, how many times can an HMG kill and rekill a 300HP Scout? So now that we've taken away his only effective tool, what should we advise that newbro Scout to do? Before I answer your questions, allow me to place 4s into perspective. The average human has a reaction time of about .215s. In order to not react in time, you'd have to be 18.6x slower than the average human. You could say that while the human does have that fast of a reaction time, the speed of the Sentinel makes that a bit misleading. However, the blast radii of Remote Explosives is only 5m. Taking the Sprint Speed into account, a Matari Sentinel will have 1.42s to react, Caldari and Gallente Sentinels will have 1.35s to react, and an Amarr Sentinel will have 1.3s to react. With that in mind, a Matari Sentinel will have to be 6.6x slower than the average human to react, Caldari and Gallente Sentinels will have to be 6.3x slower than an average human to not react, and the Amarr will have to be 6.1x slower than an average human to not react. As for your questions, I'm planning on running tests later to see the rotation speed of the Sentinel with the X and Y Sensitivity set to 100. I'll be able to answer that shortly. In reply to your second question, in 4s an HMG can kill and re-kill a 300HP Scout 10.56 times. Amarrians would prefer you be faithful... I'd rather you be logical. Proud defender of Ishukone Corporation. -HAMD
Atiim NoGameNoLife 9483	Posted - 2014.06.15 22:33:00 - [112] - Quote Argetlam Thorson wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: What advise would you have me give? Charged knife shot to the back followed by a couple of rounds of CR (or a SG blast, if you want a heavy takedown suit) should do the trick. It worked great at taking down heavies before I got tired of instadying to shotgun Gal scouts from nowhere. Or get a RR and shoot the heavy anywhere from 45-90 meters away while strafing. Otherwise? Don't plan on going after heavies as a light suit. Its not a good idea. Stick to Ewar and ganking other scouts and mediums as a general rule. The problem with that second part, is that the Light Frame/Scout is the designated counter of the Sentinel. Saying that Scout shouldn't plan on going after them is analogous to saying that an AVer should refrain from going after HAVs. I'm not going to explain why that's a problem, as I hope that your smart enough to understand why. Amarrians would prefer you be faithful... I'd rather you be logical. Proud defender of Ishukone Corporation. -HAMD
Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy 1391	Posted - 2014.06.15 22:43:00 - [113] - Quote Atiim wrote: Argetlam Thorson wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: What advise would you have me give? Charged knife shot to the back followed by a couple of rounds of CR (or a SG blast, if you want a heavy takedown suit) should do the trick. It worked great at taking down heavies before I got tired of instadying to shotgun Gal scouts from nowhere. Or get a RR and shoot the heavy anywhere from 45-90 meters away while strafing. Otherwise? Don't plan on going after heavies as a light suit. Its not a good idea. Stick to Ewar and ganking other scouts and mediums as a general rule. The problem with that second part, is that the Light Frame/Scout is the designated counter of the Sentinel. Saying that Scout shouldn't plan on going after them is analogous to saying that an AVer should refrain from going after HAVs. I'm not going to explain why that's a problem, as I hope that your smart enough to understand why. Scouts are already a great counter to the heavy. Ive had my lard handed to me countless times by SG scouts from militia allllll the way up to prototype. Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r


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