HAHAHAHAHAHA

Balancing by just putting on as many plates and extenders as possible.

Because that's totally how stuff works in game, right?

I am not balancing the game. The topic is about shields and I am trying to think on how shields can be more useful and to see more shield tanks, which are now rare.
Also I never mentioned that my idea is good at all. Even it could be quite stupid but I want to see shields useful.
Now when you look at the plates the most used one is basic. I doubt that anyone is using at all basic or advanced shields.

Be more creative :)

Yes, we want to look at comparative scaling of ehp/tank modules, whether armor or shield. It is fairly obvious that plate hp/pg is high and we need to make shield extenders competitive

Yes, we want to look at comparative scaling of ehp/tank modules, whether armor or shield. It is fairly obvious that plate hp/pg is high and we need to make shield extenders competitive

Wait.

Did you just suggest that Plate PG is high? Because it really isn't. Let's look at some numbers:
Basic Plate: 10 CPU, 1 PG. 85 HP
Advanced Plate: 20 CPU, 6 PG 110 HP
Complex Plate: 30 CPU, 12 PG. 135 HP

Basic Extender: 18 CPU, 3 PG. 22 HP
Advanced Extender: 36 CPU, 6 PG 33 HP
Complex Extender: 54 CPU, 11 PG. 66 HP

At Basic, Plate is 1 PG compared to 3. At Advanced, Plate and Extender PG is the same. At Complex, Plate costs 1 more PG than Extenders. So costing 1 more PG than a Complex Shield Extender for a Complex Plate is the PG being too high? What about Extenders costing nearly double the CPU of Plates?

To the OP:
I don't think that the HP on Complex Shield Extenders is too low, not really. The problems are the downright horrific scaling that it is basically "use Complex or don't bother" and the extreme fitting cost of Extenders. I assume that the HP is balanced around Shields being able to recharge themselves and the Recharge Penalty is on par with the movement penalty. The problem is the scaling. A silly way to do it would just be divide 66 by 135, get .4888 and multiply that by the amount of HP a plate gives you. That means Extenders would give 41.55, 53.77, and 66 per level.

An Extender costs 80% more CPU than a Plate at the same tier without saving any noticeable amount of PG. In fact, the Average PG cost of a Plate is 6.33 while the Average PG cost of an Extender is 6.67. Average CPU cost is 20 for Plate and 36 for Extender. If the HP is balanced because Shields Recharge themselves and the movement speed is balanced by the recharge delay, why are Shield Extender flat out harder to fit?

He meant HP per PG is highGǪ meaning you get a lot of HP for a low amount of PG

Yes, we want to look at comparative scaling of ehp/tank modules, whether armor or shield. It is fairly obvious that plate hp/pg is high and we need to make shield extenders competitive

Armour hp has to be high to compensate for the disadvantages (no regen and speed penalties). You tried givimg armour and shield similar hp numbers a year ago and it was absolutely ridiculous. There was literally no point in using armour.

Yes, we want to look at comparative scaling of ehp/tank modules, whether armor or shield. It is fairly obvious that plate hp/pg is high and we need to make shield extenders competitive

I am not balancing the game. The topic is about shields and I am trying to think on how shields can be more useful and to see more shield tanks, which are now rare.
Also I never mentioned that my idea is good at all. Even it could be quite stupid but I want to see shields useful.
Now when you look at the plates the most used one is basic. I doubt that anyone is using at all basic or advanced shields.

Be more creative :)

33
55
77.

could this make good new shield extender values?.im not so sure..

No because enhanced and complex ferroscale would then be worse than shields in every respect.

As arkena said, the problem is that armour clearly outperforms shield on low tiers. So either buff basic shields or nerf basic armour. Maybe change enhanced values slightly as well (though not as much as you suggest as that makes enhanced ferroscale redundant).

Complex is fine as it is. 75 (ferroscale) vs 66 (shield) is reasonable given the shield regen; maybe ferroscale even a bit on the low side. While theres a big difference in regular complex armour hp and complex shield hp, 5% movement penalty is massive. If there was a 5% speed (not just run) mod it would be pretty popular. Plus the armour tanker needs a repper. So the shield user is really getting three modules of fuctionality in a slot where the armour tanker is only getting one. Given all the advantages shield has to have some sort of drawback, ie relatively low hp.

You're drawing the wrong comparisons here. Ferroscale plates are specialized plates that remove some of the drawbacks inherent in normal plates and are therefore not a good base of comparison against regular shield extenders. I think that the HP/fitting costs for ferroscale are off (as are the HP values perhaps) but that's a completely different topic.

Shield tanking by itself is not nearly as viable as armor tanking and I think a lot of that has to do with significantly lower tank potential. Extenders probably should have HP values at least similar to ferroscale plates to partly reduce the tank imbalance that we're seeing.

I can already hear your counter argument about how shields recharge quickly and without extra modules. I get it. Seriously.

What I'm saying is that we need to balance the regular modules against regular modules and not against specialized variants. The specialized variants need attention (and the devs have said as much) and as such they make especially poor comparisons.

Ok now that that's out of the way, shields not only underperform at the lower tiers (significantly so) but also at complex level as well.

Look at the HP/PG ratios that Rattati pointed out. Even at the complex level we see Armor outperforming shields by more than half. The lack of shield tanking (observation of primarily dual tanking with an emphasis on armor tanking) is, in my opinion, a direct result.

If we don't modify the top end extenders and just raise the lower tier levels what do you envision as the result? Basic at 44 and advanced at 55? Why would complex extenders ever be used again? By compressing the differences within such a narrow range you marginalize the advantages of using higher level gear, exactly what's has happended (to an extent) with armor plates. Why spend exponentially more fitting to get 50 or 30 more hp when you can get 80 or 100 for far cheaper?

I think that increasing shield extenders HP such that they maintain about 0.7 HP/PG ratio (at the complex level) would be the change required. Any more and armor plates would be marginalized and any less and we maintain status quo.

You're drawing the wrong comparisons here. Ferroscale plates are specialized plates that remove some of the drawbacks inherent in normal plates and are therefore not a good base of comparison against regular shield extenders. I think that the HP/fitting costs for ferroscale are off (as are the HP values perhaps) but that's a completely different topic.

Shield tanking by itself is not nearly as viable as armor tanking and I think a lot of that has to do with significantly lower tank potential. Extenders probably should have HP values at least similar to ferroscale plates to partly reduce the tank imbalance that we're seeing.

I can already hear your counter argument about how shields recharge quickly and without extra modules. I get it. Seriously.

What I'm saying is that we need to balance the regular modules against regular modules and not against specialized variants. The specialized variants need attention (and the devs have said as much) and as such they make especially poor comparisons.

Ok now that that's out of the way, shields not only underperform at the lower tiers (significantly so) but also at complex level as well.

Look at the HP/PG ratios that Rattati pointed out. Even at the complex level we see Armor outperforming shields by more than half. The lack of shield tanking (observation of primarily dual tanking with an emphasis on armor tanking) is, in my opinion, a direct result.

If we don't modify the top end extenders and just raise the lower tier levels what do you envision as the result? Basic at 44 and advanced at 55? Why would complex extenders ever be used again? By compressing the differences within such a narrow range you marginalize the advantages of using higher level gear, exactly what's has happended (to an extent) with armor plates. Why spend exponentially more fitting to get 50 or 30 more hp when you can get 80 or 100 for far cheaper?

I think that increasing shield extenders HP such that they maintain about 0.7 HP/PG ratio (at the complex level) would be the change required. Any more and armor plates would be marginalized and any less and we maintain status quo.

TL;DR Armour tank and shield tank are balanced at complex levels. Armour tank is for frontal assaults, shield tank for sneakier attacks. If you increase complex shield HP values then shield will be for sneaking AND frontal assaults and armour will have no use.

I am not balancing the game. The topic is about shields and I am trying to think on how shields can be more useful and to see more shield tanks, which are now rare.
Also I never mentioned that my idea is good at all. Even it could be quite stupid but I want to see shields useful.
Now when you look at the plates the most used one is basic. I doubt that anyone is using at all basic or advanced shields.

Be more creative :)

They either need to reduce the complex shields to something like 45

No.

Shield tanking currently survive based on 3 things,

1) Duel tanking- Because shield tanking alone is not enough of a buffer to survive alpha

2) Cloaks- getting hit isn't a problem is your not seen, also time to regen is given

3) Distance- Staying in your optimal and dancing on the edge of theirs.

Obviously there is so much to balance here, ehp stacking in general, scouts ehp stacking, shield vs armor utility, so fun yet so complicated, right now I'm just talking bout shields as a single form of defense. The issue is exasperated with short a short TTK, which my solution is to essentially increase it because otherwise no differentiation is noticeable and max buffer is king.

For shield tanking to "work" as a form of defense, meaning not relying on distance/cloak/armor, then it has to survive alpha attacks, which ballpark around 400-550 damage (and regular dps which is in the 375-550 range), which is essentially all of your shield buffer in one shot should any non heavy frame buffer entirely with shields. This is why shield tankers duel tank.

The value in delayed automatic regen is nullified if you can't survive long enough to weave in and out of cover (front line shield tactics). So shields need to provide enough buffer to survive the alpha or 1 sec of dps to still be functional with a realistic buffer.

This will be an arbitrary so don't pull out your torches and pitchforks yet, but if a proto Cal Assault had a final shield value of around 700 compared to full proto cal assault of 550 (which armor ehp would need to be reexamined), leaving you with 150-325 shields left after an initial hit (+100ish for base armor), then I think shield tanking would have some breathing room as a stand alone.

Again whether this is by turning plates into % of whatever value or just raw number increase plus decentives for scouts. These are the end numbers I think shield tanking (not stealth/armor/cloak with shields) needs to survive as a lone form of tanking, and again as noted before this would mean that armor would need another examination.

As for making basic/enhanced shield extenders more competitive, 33/44/66 would do the job.

I still think 55 /66/ 88 will be best with some stacking penalties. thus you can put several extenders + recharger in the high slot and still to have good shield HP for shield tanking.

Nice idea if you want to remove armour tanking from the game. To repeat for the thousandth time, the massive drawbacks of armour tanking (speed reduction plus no regen) mean that there has to be a significant hp gap or armour will be redundant. Ccp already tried the 'derp lets give shield almost as much hp as armour as well as far higher speed and rapid regen' a year ago, it was stupid then and it would be stupid now.

@driftward

So because ferroscale is already terrible we should make it even less competitive (relative to shield)? You must work for ccp with 'balancing' ideas like that.

What makes you think ferroscales are just going to sit as they are?

Rattati directly talked about how they (and reactives) needed help badly. All of my thought experiments were based on the assumption that ferroscale plates would get a buff (either by direct hp or indirect lowering of fitting). Your responses make it clear that rather than coming up with ideas for balancing you are heavily tied to one piece of equipment and balancing around it rather than globally. It's how we got the current armor situation which is by no means balanced. The only buffer mods we see used consistently are basic/enhanced plates and complex shield extenders. I want to see a more diversified field that includes rechargers, energizers, armor reppers, ferroscales and everything else as a viable option.

No need to get all butthurt and make it personal.

my issue isnt with the extenders (except for enhanced extenders, those should be 44 hp)

the cpu cost of energizers, rechargers, and complex regulators are crazy high. you have to use a low slot cpu mod to run two complex rechargers with anything else

I don't disagree with the idea of more diversity. But if that's your goal, why buff complex shield extenders when, as you admit, they're already extremely widely used?

I suspect plain ol' shield tanker butthurt, show me otherwise.

I'll try and make it clear then, my point is that pure shield tanking is not viable (see Oswald Rehnquist's post).

Complex shield extenders probably get used frequently because they are one of the only high slot modules that is worth a damn (now that damage mods are less useful) not necessarily that they are great individually. Complex shield extenders should be in the same category of use as complex plates (i actually think those are moderately well balanced between high buffer and high movement penalty) and as such if hp is increased then the shield depleted delay penalty could be considered for an increase too (15%+?). Regardless, the major point I want to make is this: We can't make a decent spread/range of shield extenders from basic to complex and have them all occupy a separate niche of use without expanding that range, at least a little.

Would you consider using a basic shield extender if it gave 33 hp like you suggested? That is less than one bullet of just about any weapon. Stack three of them and you barely get more than a single basic plate. I think that a basic shield extender giving somewhere in the neighborhood of 40 hp would be more realistic. At least then you have ~half the functionality of a basic plate. Enhanced extender of maybe 55-60 and complex of max 80-85. That way there is a clear distinction between tiers of module and a reasonable lower limit. Stacking penalties should be extremely severe (as has been discussed in the armor rebalancing thread) such that modules of the same tier should have significantly reduced effectiveness.

With a complex shield extender maxing out at 80-85 that keeps shields well below the buffer potential of armor. Ferroscale plates could max out around 100 hp at complex and enhanced level around 80-85 (approximately 1 tier above shield and 1 tier below regular plates) with fitting costs split between shield extender and reg plates (ie higher cpu than plates, lower than shields and ~ same pg 11-12)

The changes I'm proposing would only work, and balance, IF and only IF something significant is done to reduce the benefits of stacking buffer modules to the exclusion of all else. (significant stacking penalties and increased bonuses to auxiliary buffer mods (energizer, repper, etc.) If stacking isn't modified then changing hp amounts will only exacerbate the current balance situation. I'm hopeful, based on the development discussion in the armor balance threads, that something will be done to rectify the situation somewhat in which case there might be some further things, such as what I'm suggesting, that could diversify the fitting meta.

80-85 for complex extender and 100 for complex ferroscale doesn't sound unreasonable. That would fairly reflect the high fitting costs compared to regular armour plates, I think. Seems like we can get along after all

what if shields recharged constantly without the delay, like armor does?

shield tanks would have low over all hp but their high recharge rates help them survive drawn out battles, but weak in fights where there's no cover.

armor tanks would have high hp but suffer being worn down in drawn out fights.

Yes, we want to look at comparative scaling of ehp/tank modules, whether armor or shield. It is fairly obvious that plate hp/pg is high and we need to make shield extenders competitive

i consider shields a first line of defense. and consider armor the last line of defense.

wouldnt it always be better to have the strongest for last?.

though its possible to reach passive tank/ rep levels of shield recharge rates for armor.

the player doing so essentially sacrifices all slots and possibly several others just to obtain that rep rate for armor.

wheres as shield gets it right off at the start but does start out with less hp in the beginning. but is also faster than armor in alot of cases. so shield tankers can reach locations first before armor tankers. retreat for a few seconds just for shields to recharge then head right back into attacking a position. i dont think they need the ability to out brawl armor in every slugging fest. as they have a faster overall regain during engagements unlike armor. which can really only stand up to hard hitting stuff. depending on the scenario.

Your way of comparison is extremely broken.

Yes there are problems with armor and shields, but compare them this way and you will end up with a much more broken game.

i consider shields a first line of defense. and consider armor the last line of defense.

wouldnt it always be better to have the strongest for last?.

though its possible to reach passive tank/ rep levels of shield recharge rates for armor.

the player doing so essentially sacrifices all slots and possibly several others just to obtain that rep rate for armor.

wheres as shield gets it right off at the start but does start out with less hp in the beginning. but is also faster than armor in alot of cases. so shield tankers can reach locations first before armor tankers. retreat for a few seconds just for shields to recharge then head right back into attacking a position. i dont think they need the ability to out brawl armor in every slugging fest. as they have a faster overall regain during engagements unlike armor. which can really only stand up to hard hitting stuff. depending on the scenario.