Yes, we want to look at comparative scaling of ehp/tank modules, whether armor or shield. It is fairly obvious that plate hp/pg is high and we need to make shield extenders competitive

33
55
77.

could this make good new shield extender values?.im not so sure..

You're drawing the wrong comparisons here. Ferroscale plates are specialized plates that remove some of the drawbacks inherent in normal plates and are therefore not a good base of comparison against regular shield extenders. I think that the HP/fitting costs for ferroscale are off (as are the HP values perhaps) but that's a completely different topic.

Shield tanking by itself is not nearly as viable as armor tanking and I think a lot of that has to do with significantly lower tank potential. Extenders probably should have HP values at least similar to ferroscale plates to partly reduce the tank imbalance that we're seeing.

I can already hear your counter argument about how shields recharge quickly and without extra modules. I get it. Seriously.

What I'm saying is that we need to balance the regular modules against regular modules and not against specialized variants. The specialized variants need attention (and the devs have said as much) and as such they make especially poor comparisons.

Ok now that that's out of the way, shields not only underperform at the lower tiers (significantly so) but also at complex level as well.

Look at the HP/PG ratios that Rattati pointed out. Even at the complex level we see Armor outperforming shields by more than half. The lack of shield tanking (observation of primarily dual tanking with an emphasis on armor tanking) is, in my opinion, a direct result.

If we don't modify the top end extenders and just raise the lower tier levels what do you envision as the result? Basic at 44 and advanced at 55? Why would complex extenders ever be used again? By compressing the differences within such a narrow range you marginalize the advantages of using higher level gear, exactly what's has happended (to an extent) with armor plates. Why spend exponentially more fitting to get 50 or 30 more hp when you can get 80 or 100 for far cheaper?

I think that increasing shield extenders HP such that they maintain about 0.7 HP/PG ratio (at the complex level) would be the change required. Any more and armor plates would be marginalized and any less and we maintain status quo.

You're drawing the wrong comparisons here. Ferroscale plates are specialized plates that remove some of the drawbacks inherent in normal plates and are therefore not a good base of comparison against regular shield extenders. I think that the HP/fitting costs for ferroscale are off (as are the HP values perhaps) but that's a completely different topic.

Shield tanking by itself is not nearly as viable as armor tanking and I think a lot of that has to do with significantly lower tank potential. Extenders probably should have HP values at least similar to ferroscale plates to partly reduce the tank imbalance that we're seeing.

I can already hear your counter argument about how shields recharge quickly and without extra modules. I get it. Seriously.

What I'm saying is that we need to balance the regular modules against regular modules and not against specialized variants. The specialized variants need attention (and the devs have said as much) and as such they make especially poor comparisons.

Ok now that that's out of the way, shields not only underperform at the lower tiers (significantly so) but also at complex level as well.

Look at the HP/PG ratios that Rattati pointed out. Even at the complex level we see Armor outperforming shields by more than half. The lack of shield tanking (observation of primarily dual tanking with an emphasis on armor tanking) is, in my opinion, a direct result.

If we don't modify the top end extenders and just raise the lower tier levels what do you envision as the result? Basic at 44 and advanced at 55? Why would complex extenders ever be used again? By compressing the differences within such a narrow range you marginalize the advantages of using higher level gear, exactly what's has happended (to an extent) with armor plates. Why spend exponentially more fitting to get 50 or 30 more hp when you can get 80 or 100 for far cheaper?

I think that increasing shield extenders HP such that they maintain about 0.7 HP/PG ratio (at the complex level) would be the change required. Any more and armor plates would be marginalized and any less and we maintain status quo.

I still think 55 /66/ 88 will be best with some stacking penalties. thus you can put several extenders + recharger in the high slot and still to have good shield HP for shield tanking.

What makes you think ferroscales are just going to sit as they are?

Rattati directly talked about how they (and reactives) needed help badly. All of my thought experiments were based on the assumption that ferroscale plates would get a buff (either by direct hp or indirect lowering of fitting). Your responses make it clear that rather than coming up with ideas for balancing you are heavily tied to one piece of equipment and balancing around it rather than globally. It's how we got the current armor situation which is by no means balanced. The only buffer mods we see used consistently are basic/enhanced plates and complex shield extenders. I want to see a more diversified field that includes rechargers, energizers, armor reppers, ferroscales and everything else as a viable option.

No need to get all butthurt and make it personal.

my issue isnt with the extenders (except for enhanced extenders, those should be 44 hp)

the cpu cost of energizers, rechargers, and complex regulators are crazy high. you have to use a low slot cpu mod to run two complex rechargers with anything else

I'll try and make it clear then, my point is that pure shield tanking is not viable (see Oswald Rehnquist's post).

Complex shield extenders probably get used frequently because they are one of the only high slot modules that is worth a damn (now that damage mods are less useful) not necessarily that they are great individually. Complex shield extenders should be in the same category of use as complex plates (i actually think those are moderately well balanced between high buffer and high movement penalty) and as such if hp is increased then the shield depleted delay penalty could be considered for an increase too (15%+?). Regardless, the major point I want to make is this: We can't make a decent spread/range of shield extenders from basic to complex and have them all occupy a separate niche of use without expanding that range, at least a little.

Would you consider using a basic shield extender if it gave 33 hp like you suggested? That is less than one bullet of just about any weapon. Stack three of them and you barely get more than a single basic plate. I think that a basic shield extender giving somewhere in the neighborhood of 40 hp would be more realistic. At least then you have ~half the functionality of a basic plate. Enhanced extender of maybe 55-60 and complex of max 80-85. That way there is a clear distinction between tiers of module and a reasonable lower limit. Stacking penalties should be extremely severe (as has been discussed in the armor rebalancing thread) such that modules of the same tier should have significantly reduced effectiveness.

With a complex shield extender maxing out at 80-85 that keeps shields well below the buffer potential of armor. Ferroscale plates could max out around 100 hp at complex and enhanced level around 80-85 (approximately 1 tier above shield and 1 tier below regular plates) with fitting costs split between shield extender and reg plates (ie higher cpu than plates, lower than shields and ~ same pg 11-12)

The changes I'm proposing would only work, and balance, IF and only IF something significant is done to reduce the benefits of stacking buffer modules to the exclusion of all else. (significant stacking penalties and increased bonuses to auxiliary buffer mods (energizer, repper, etc.) If stacking isn't modified then changing hp amounts will only exacerbate the current balance situation. I'm hopeful, based on the development discussion in the armor balance threads, that something will be done to rectify the situation somewhat in which case there might be some further things, such as what I'm suggesting, that could diversify the fitting meta.