I agree with this. Some people just aren't good at it and some aren't able to accept losing a fit or two or 5 in order to get the tank. If the it's a really good tanker than face the fact you might not be good enough at AV. Not to mention that it is situational. If you are playing solo and see two forgers shooting at it, just get one or two RE"s on it. When it finally gets down to half armor then detonate it. No reason to kill it outright.

I don't want it to go there. But this is why the assertion that one AV soloing any vehicle is wrong. Because if that same logic applied to AV vs infantry makes things unbalanced, then that logic would make V vs AV unbalanced.

Assuming equal skill here:

• Kaalakiota Rail Rifle vs. Kaalakiota Magsec SMG... Who wins?
• Ishukone Assault Rail Rifle vs. Ishukone Assault SMG... Who wins?
• Core Breach Mass Driver vs. Core Flaylock Pistol.. Who wins?
• Carthum Assault Scrambler Rifle vs. Carthum Assault Scrambler Pistol... Who Wins?

I know where my money's at.

It would seem to me that there should be several different options available for a dedicated AV. REs might work well for some people, but they shouldn't be the only effective way to deal with a tank.

Also, if a player choses to dump millions of SP into Swarm Launcher Skills (for example), and ISK into Proto Swarm Launchers, to the exclusion of all other skills (potentially sacrificing a degree of survivability against infantry in the process), I don't think it is unreasonable for them to expect to be able to... oh, I don't know... maybe actually be able to kill a tank by themselves, and not just help someone else kill a tank, or require the help of others to kill a tank.

The player needs to feel that there is a suitable reward for their investment, and for the grind that they've spent to get there. Otherwise, they'll just get discouraged and quit because, well, what was the point?

Right now it just seems like "Great, I've spent hundreds of hours and all my ISK specializing in AV, now if I only had a couple of like-minded teammates, who just happen to be specialized in different, yet complimentary AV, we might be able to get together and scare a tank away!"

So, why bother specializing in AV at all, when a player could be more effective at just about anything else, with far less effort and investment, and for far greater rewards at the end of the battle?

/my $0.02

The assertion that AVers should solo is based on the fact that we sacrifice our primary (which is the majority of your AP capabilities) in exchange for the ability to reasonably destroy vehicles.

That sacrifice is relative to the AP sacrifices that a Large Missile and/or 80GJ Railgun Turret user make to be effective against vehicles. So by your logic, Large Missiles and 80GJ Railguns are just as AP as they are AV, and as such need a complete overhaul and should never be able to destroy Infantry units.

Sacrificing something in this game is never an absolute sacrifice. While it is extremely difficult because of a sacrifice, it is never impossible to do something.

And before you talk about how giving up your primary isn't a sufficient sacrifice in terms of AV, I'll paste this from another thread here:

When I run my 3x dmg mod swarms and an ADS gets only one kill because 1 to 2 hits by my swarm cuz it to run then that tells me that it's balanced. I don't have to destroy a vehicle for AV to be balanced. Just nullifying them is more than enough.

I don't have to destroy a clone for vehicles to be balanced. Just nullifying them is more than enough.

The issue here is that AV wants to completely dominate vehicles while still having the ability to defend themselves from infantry. As Ive stated before, it absolutely should take 2-3 dedicated AV to kill my tank. But I should have great difficulty engaging those AV without fitting small turrets. Small turrets are my tanks analogous sidearms, which should allow my tank to engage AV just as AV has a sidearm to engage infantry.

As an Eve example, it should take multiple frigates to kill my battleship. But my battleship should have issues engaging those frigates without fitting small drones.

The tanker is superior in every way, having better av than the av'er while having the best anti infantry in the game ...

The issue here is that AV wants to completely dominate vehicles while still having the ability to defend themselves from infantry. As Ive stated before, it absolutely should take 2-3 dedicated AV to kill my tank. But I should have great difficulty engaging those AV without fitting small turrets. Small turrets are my tanks analogous sidearms, which should allow my tank to engage AV just as AV has a sidearm to engage infantry.

As an Eve example, it should take multiple frigates to kill my battleship. But my battleship should have issues engaging those frigates without fitting small drones.

If a single av specialist can't kill a single tanker....
Then why would the av specialist ever exist.
The tanker is superior in every way, having better av than the av'er while having the best anti infantry in the game as well compared to the pathetic anti infantry of the av'er.

You could say that cost would be a good reason to use an av fit over a tank.
This is untrue for 2 reasons- 1. Obviously a proto av weapon, the only ones worth a single damn, are more expensive than tanks...
2. And more importantly since 1. Is likely to change, cost does not matter for us. Even if everyone had 10 mil isk we still wouldn't care about cost if we wanted to kill something. We'd just use the best option avaiable like always.

THIS. Is the reason av is completely broken.
Because every AVer is sitting in a tank.
Because you can't be selfish and say"well it should take 3 people to take me out! Because I spent 500k isk on this!"
Because when you do that, there's no reason those 3 people won't do the exact same thing you're doing.
If you can't deal with the fact that there is role SPECIFICALLY MADE to beat ONLY your role, and think it should take 3 or more of these guys WHOSE ONLY ROLE is to kill YOU, then perhaps you shouldn't be playing online games.
You're probably better off playing a single player game, where entire campaigns of enemies can't kill you.

Now then, since av is broken, back to sitting in my tank. Exploiting the idiocy of the forums influence on CCP 1 unlucky merc in front of a blaster at a time.

Fellow AVers, we can take a high ground here. We shouldn't ask for too much more by way of buffing AV or nerfing tanks. Balance is really close. The only things I would like to see is a RoF nerf on the blaster coupled with a damage buff to keep the same DPS vs tanks but less effective vs infantry, third AV grenade back, or a buff to it's damage, swarm velocity increse, and fix the skill bonus bug to get forge back to where it's suppose to be.

Tanks ARE soloable now. Proof is in this video. If you want to hunt tanks alone, you need to use a combination of AV weapons to do it, you don't have to lay traps and wait, you can use an LAV to position yourselves. The fitting I used in that video cost 71k. All of that footage was shot in one night.

We don't need tanks back to where they were prior to 1.6. Back then I could neutralize damn near any tank alone with only AV nades for MLT and Av Nades and Swarms for anything larger. See this video if you forgot how easy it was for a single dedicated AV guy to shut a tank down before the rebalance.

If we demand too much than we are no different than the pilots who brought us 1.7.

hey OP - forgot the general intention of the Uprising 1.7 update? it was to make vehicles an essential, or at least largely present part of most battles, instead of the niche-playstyle of a small elite that it was before 1.7... .

so, of course AV is now only for scaring vehicles away for a short time, laying traps or combined forces ambushes - instead of solo-player tank-assassinaitions!

if you want that crap back, we would need even much lower prices for especially proto-tank-fits - losing a half-million ISK vehicle averagely every one match due to super fast vehicular-warfare-TTK , Jihad-Jeep BS, proficient Proxy-Mine-Traps or sudden tank-spam on the other team makes PRO-Tanking already an ISK-Sink - i say rather increase MLT-Vehicle cost, nerf MLT & STD modules & turrets - and call it a day!

Fellow AVers, we can take a high ground here. We shouldn't ask for too much more by way of buffing AV or nerfing tanks. Balance is really close. The only things I would like to see is a RoF nerf on the blaster coupled with a damage buff to keep the same DPS vs tanks but less effective vs infantry, third AV grenade back, or a buff to it's damage, swarm velocity increse, and fix the skill bonus bug to get forge back to where it's suppose to be.

Tanks ARE soloable now. Proof is in this video. If you want to hunt tanks alone, you need to use a combination of AV weapons to do it, you don't have to lay traps and wait, you can use an LAV to position yourselves. The fitting I used in that video cost 71k. All of that footage was shot in one night.

We don't need tanks back to where they were prior to 1.6. Back then I could neutralize damn near any tank alone with only AV nades for MLT and Av Nades and Swarms for anything larger. See this video if you forgot how easy it was for a single dedicated AV guy to shut a tank down before the rebalance.

If we demand too much than we are no different than the pilots who brought us 1.7.

both videos are the perfect examples how to not drive a tank, thanks for making yourself look stupid. if you want to show some evidence, atleast show some properly fit and driven full hp tanks being shot by AV and not some scrubs not moving in the middle of several enemies or even crashing into walls.

btw a proper fit max sp armor tank in 1.6 could absorb tripple damage modded swarms from a single person for 15 seconds and move on. if you do not know how this was done then you are simply not entitled to talk about 1.6 tanks and tanks in general because you simply have no clue.

If you don't know how to solo kills tanks, you don't know how to AV.
If you don't know how to bait tanks, you don't know how to AV.
If you don't know how to ambush tanks, you don't know how to AV.
If you don't know how to get tanks by surprise, you don't know how to AV.
If you need to cry for AV buff, you don't know how to AV.

I am open to major AV buff once vehicles get the variety back.
Also more direct and indirect AV weaponry to get the rock paper scissors, not rock paper nuke.

I didn't catch all the names of the people I killed in that video, but is Big Burns from Escrow a Scrub? He lost two tanks to me that night. How about 8213? Not sure of his piloting skills, but I see him here quite a bit, so I have to asume he knows a little bit about the game. Like I said, every tank that went down in the first video took place in one night. You can beat your chest and declair what your eyes see is not true all you want, even insult me (classy), but it doesn't change the fact that those were tanks, of various hull types, various pilots, on various maps, although all in Ambush, and they all went down. And this super duper god tank from 1.6 you speak of must have been so super secret only know by the very few, the best, cool guy, super 1337 pilots, that it never crossed my path. In 1.6 it was rare that I even pulled proto AV, Most of the time ADV was all that was needed. Didn't your corp teach you to Have some Class, and act like you've been there?

lol

oh well lets check the ambush tank hunting video, shall we analyze it?
1. unhardened, wasnt full hp & crashes into wall => scrub
2. unhardened, wasnt full hp & sitting in the open field doing nothing => scrub
3. militia tank which had remote explosive stacked on him already before, he charged right in front of you then was standing still. no comment
4. shield tank deep in armor already, true damage was done by another tank
5. unhardened shield tank with no booster sitting in the open with half shields => scrub
6. unhardened shield tank with no booster...
and so on, we have a pattern here, most of them have a useless fit and do scrub moves because "its a tank". shall I continue?

and just as I thought, you have no clue about 1.6 tanking. it was shown with vides and math was posted right in the forums when tank overhaul was announced, not my fault that you missed it.

and just as I thought, you have no clue about 1.6 tanking. it was shown with vides and math was posted right in the forums when tank overhaul was announced, not my fault that you missed it.

For a guy who only cries, that is a lot of calling other people scrubs.

Then again, sitting on top of a tower with 400m autolocking rockets of death was the pinnacle of skill right?

Dogs who skateboard; Squirrels who ski.
But a Tanker discussing skill?

That's something we must see.

Two words
Plasma Cannon

For a guy who only cries, that is a lot of calling other people scrubs.

Then again, sitting on top of a tower with 400m autolocking rockets of death was the pinnacle of skill right?

Oh look, another crying infantry.

If only someone could teach you how to kill tanks.

I'll get on my heavy alt and teach you for only 100 million ISK.

I read a lot of people saying it's good for killing tanks. I have actually said it's UP weapon on many occasions but then PLC users come and bash me for calling it UP.

They are semi effective on shield tanks if the driver is dumb enough to stick around but they are pathetically useless against most armor tanks. Between the reload time and bonus to shields they can usually out-rep the damage.

Edit: It's possible that the commando bonus could make up for the reload speed issue, I'm skeptical but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.