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Mojo XXXIII
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3
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Posted - 2014.04.15 23:33:00 -
[1] - Quote
Eko Sol wrote:THEAMAZING POTHEAD wrote:If a single av specialist can't kill a single tanker....
Then why would the av specialist ever exist.
The tanker is superior in every way, having better av than the av'er while having the best anti infantry in the game as well compared to the pathetic anti infantry of the av'er.
You could say that cost would be a good reason to use an av fit over a tank.
This is untrue for 2 reasons- 1. Obviously a proto av weapon, the only ones worth a single damn, are more expensive than tanks...
2. And more importantly since 1. Is likely to change, cost does not matter for us. Even if everyone had 10 mil isk we still wouldn't care about cost if we wanted to kill something. We'd just use the best option avaiable like always.
THIS. Is the reason av is completely broken.
Because every AVer is sitting in a tank.
Because you can't be selfish and say"well it should take 3 people to take me out! Because I spent 500k isk on this!"
Because when you do that, there's no reason those 3 people won't do the exact same thing you're doing.
If you can't deal with the fact that there is role SPECIFICALLY MADE to beat ONLY your role, and think it should take 3 or more of these guys WHOSE ONLY ROLE is to kill YOU, then perhaps you shouldn't be playing online games.
You're probably better off playing a single player game, where entire campaigns of enemies can't kill you.
Now then, since av is broken, back to sitting in my tank. Exploiting the idiocy of the forums influence on CCP 1 unlucky merc in front of a blaster at a time. How about I put it this way. I run a Anti Armor fit where I switch out my light weapon with a MLT AR, my grenade for a ADV packed AV nade, and my equipment with a basic RE. It costs like 5k Would you believe that since I started doing this I have taken out some of the best tankers in the game. Run behind them, throw as many re's on the weak spot that you can and throw your nades and detonate the RE's. Yes, sometimes I lose 5 fits doing this before I get cheaper. The most I ever lost trying to get a tank was 9 without getting a tank. I get pure joy in seeing tankers look at the kill screen and it reads "Anti Armor" and "Remote Explosive". AV is balanced. People just need to get over the fact that you can't be good at everything and sometimes you get nullified by a tank.
What I've gotten from reading most of these posts/threads is that AV don't want to be "good at everything", but rather they just expect to be effective at what they've chosen to specialize in. |
Mojo XXXIII
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
5
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Posted - 2014.04.16 00:12:00 -
[2] - Quote
Eko Sol wrote:Mojo XXXIII wrote:
What I've gotten from reading most of these posts/threads is that AV don't want to be "good at everything", but rather they expect to be effective at what they've chosen to specialize in.
I agree with this. Some people just aren't good at it and some aren't able to accept losing a fit or two or 5 in order to get the tank. If the it's a really good tanker than face the fact you might not be good enough at AV. Not to mention that it is situational. If you are playing solo and see two forgers shooting at it, just get one or two RE"s on it. When it finally gets down to half armor then detonate it. No reason to kill it outright.
It would seem to me that there should be several different options available for a dedicated AV. REs might work well for some people, but they shouldn't be the only effective way to deal with a tank.
Also, if a player choses to dump millions of SP into Swarm Launcher Skills (for example), and ISK into Proto Swarm Launchers, to the exclusion of all other skills (potentially sacrificing a degree of survivability against infantry in the process), I don't think it is unreasonable for them to expect to be able to... oh, I don't know... maybe actually be able to kill a tank by themselves, and not just help someone else kill a tank, or require the help of others to kill a tank.
The player needs to feel that there is a suitable reward for their investment, and for the grind that they've spent to get there. Otherwise, they'll just get discouraged and quit because, well, what was the point?
Right now it just seems like "Great, I've spent hundreds of hours and all my ISK specializing in AV, now if I only had a couple of like-minded teammates, who just happen to be specialized in different, yet complimentary AV, we might be able to get together and scare a tank away!"
So, why bother specializing in AV at all, when a player could be more effective at just about anything else, with far less effort and investment, and for far greater rewards at the end of the battle?
/my $0.02 |
Mojo XXXIII
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
5
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Posted - 2014.04.16 01:08:00 -
[3] - Quote
I will agree that when it comes to CASUAL, non-specialized AV players, such as a regular infantry player who switches temporarily to his AV suit in response to the appearance of a vehicle on the field, or a player who has split his SP allotment between Assault and AV, for example, SHOULD require teamwork to eliminate a tank.
But I see no reason why a SPECIALIZED, dedicated AV build, that has sacrificed effectiveness in all other areas, should not (at least) be capable of taking out the same vehicle by themselves, regardless of which AV weapon he has chosen to specialize in.
Assuming a comparable level of skill between the players, of course.
Taking out vehicles is that character's sole reason for existing, after all, so it stands to reason that they should be more effective at it, since they, by specializing, are inherently less effective at everything else. It is what they are built to do, they should not REQUIRE help to serve their sole purpose for existing on the battlefield.
Otherwise, it is simply not worth the investment to specialize. |
Mojo XXXIII
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
7
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Posted - 2014.04.16 02:31:00 -
[4] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:Atiim wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:
I don't want it to go there. But this is why the assertion that one AV soloing any vehicle is wrong. Because if that same logic applied to AV vs infantry makes things unbalanced, then that logic would make V vs AV unbalanced.
The assertion that AVers should solo is based on the fact that we sacrifice our primary (which is the majority of your AP capabilities) in exchange for the ability to reasonably destroy vehicles. That sacrifice is relative to the AP sacrifices that a Large Missile and/or 80GJ Railgun Turret user make to be effective against vehicles. So by your logic, Large Missiles and 80GJ Railguns are just as AP as they are AV, and as such need a complete overhaul and should never be able to destroy Infantry units. Sacrificing something in this game is never an absolute sacrifice. While it is extremely difficult because of a sacrifice, it is never impossible to do something. And before you talk about how giving up your primary isn't a sufficient sacrifice in terms of AV, I'll paste this from another thread here: Atiim wrote:Assuming equal skill here:
- Kaalakiota Rail Rifle vs. Kaalakiota Magsec SMG... Who wins?
- Ishukone Assault Rail Rifle vs. Ishukone Assault SMG... Who wins?
- Core Breach Mass Driver vs. Core Flaylock Pistol.. Who wins?
- Carthum Assault Scrambler Rifle vs. Carthum Assault Scrambler Pistol... Who Wins?
I know where my money's at. The issue here is that AV wants to completely dominate vehicles while still having the ability to defend themselves from infantry. As Ive stated before, it absolutely should take 2-3 dedicated AV to kill my tank. But I should have great difficulty engaging those AV without fitting small turrets. Small turrets are my tanks analogous sidearms, which should allow my tank to engage AV just as AV has a sidearm to engage infantry. As an Eve example, it should take multiple frigates to kill my battleship. But my battleship should have issues engaging those frigates without fitting small drones.
Casual AV, yes, absolutely, but 2-3 DEDICATED AV, just to have the cpability to possibly take out one person in a tank? Hell no.
Dedicated AV are the ones who actually SACRIFICE their ability to defend themselves from infantry, in order to be as effective as possible at one single task: killing tanks.
DEDICATED AV are much rarer than casual AV and, if it required 2-3 of them to take out your tank, then you might as well be invincible.
1. The odds of any given team in a pub match having 3 DEDICATED AV, in the same squad and coordinating their efforts is quite slim
2. If it takes 3 DEDICATED AV to take out your tank, then it would take what, 5 or 6 casual AV? (if even possible, since casual AV probably wouldn't have the same level of equipment/skills. If it takes 3 Dedicated, all with proto equipment and mods, what chance would a bunch of casuals with militia equipment have of taking you out? None.)
3. Those same three Dedicated AV are, by their specialized nature, gimped versus your infantry so, while the three of them are concentrating thier efforts to take out just you, your team would essentially enjoy a two man advantage (or at least five, if they're only casual AV)
There's a BIG difference between "casual" and "dedicated" AV. Casual should require teamwork, I will not dispute that, but dedicated is specifically optimized for taking out tanks, to the exclusion of all else, and should be effective at it.
That's kind of the whole point in specializing in the first place. |
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