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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)
Draxus Prime BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 3445	Posted - 2014.03.27 01:27:00 - [1] - Quote they will be nerfed very soon, even possibly today Source: CCP Saberwings twitter "Spilling floor cleaner only makes the floor cleaner" -Draxus Prime Closed Beta Vet Nova Knife Proficiency 5 \o/
da GAND L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 583	Posted - 2014.03.27 01:30:00 - [2] - Quote Well a tanker did say before that they didn't need to buff the hardners before when tanks were kinda crap Don't nerf heavies, instead do This
Draxus Prime BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 3445	Posted - 2014.03.27 01:45:00 - [3] - Quote bump "Spilling floor cleaner only makes the floor cleaner" -Draxus Prime Closed Beta Vet Nova Knife Proficiency 5 \o/
Lorhak Gannarsein Science For Death 2430	Posted - 2014.03.27 01:47:00 - [4] - Quote da GAND wrote: Well a tanker did say before that they didn't need to buff the hardners before when tanks were kinda crap My current triple hardened EHP is lower than my general-purpose Maddy's was in 1.6. The only reason tanks seem like they got buffed is because AV got nerfed. NOTE: By triple-hardened I don't mean perma hardened. I mean I have the same burst EHP as my old Maddy do, only my old tank had it for longer without activating as many mods. ak.0 4 LYFE Guess who's butthurt about light-assaults!? <------This guy!!
I-Shayz-I I-----I 2731	Posted - 2014.03.27 02:07:00 - [5] - Quote I honestly think reps are the problem, not the hardeners. As an armor tank you should be able to resist a ton of damage so that the enemy has to chip away slowly at your health...not this rep back the 2000 damage you just took in 10 seconds thing. Links: 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! I make logistics videos!
Zirzo Valcyn Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 321	Posted - 2014.03.27 02:09:00 - [6] - Quote it's the plates that need nerfing. nerf the plates. u can ban the troll out of the forums but u can't ban the forums out of the troll. forum warrior .189
Christiphoros von Poe Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 252	Posted - 2014.03.27 02:10:00 - [7] - Quote It also says they are nerfing redline rails. Aw yes. (1) "Exile" Assault Rifle reserved for: Fire of Prometheus Uprising->Replication->E3->Codex->Chromosome->Uprising->???
RuckingFetard Better Hide R Die 750	Posted - 2014.03.27 03:38:00 - [8] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: I honestly think reps are the problem, not the hardeners. As an armor tank you should be able to resist a ton of damage so that the enemy has to chip away slowly at your health...not this rep back the 2000 damage you just took in 10 seconds thing. AFAIK GalTanks rely on active tanking, so I'd like to go with other options before reps are nerfed Running pure shield tanked Caldari 'cuz me a hippy

CCP Saberwing C C P C C P Alliance 2892	Posted - 2014.03.27 03:39:00 - [9] - Quote Yes. I don't know the exact hotfix that's planned yet (they're working on it at the moment) but we'll post an update when we know. CCP Saberwing // DUST 514 Community Manager // @kanafchian

bamboo x Eternal Beings Proficiency V. 427	Posted - 2014.03.27 03:40:00 - [10] - Quote OH MY GOD <3 You people who have an ego trip from proto stomping have a harsh reality waiting in life after you turn off the PS3.

Rusty Shallows 1273	Posted - 2014.03.27 03:42:00 - [11] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: Yes. I don't know the exact hotfix that's planned yet (they're working on it at the moment) but we'll post an update when we know. .... ..... Forums > Game: So here is a cookie and a Like. Please keep posting. Bwahahahahahahahahahaha! >>> GòÜ(GÇóGîéGÇó)Gò¥ >>>
Racro 01 Arifistan 501st Knights of Leanbox INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 254	Posted - 2014.03.27 03:42:00 - [12] - Quote can i just have my tanks from chromosome back? *Elite Gallenten Soldier*
Darken-Soul BIG BAD W0LVES Canis Eliminatus Operatives 1666	Posted - 2014.03.27 03:43:00 - [13] - Quote Could the person in charge of nerf/buff squad up for a bit. I can show you objectively what needs to be done. It will take a half hour to an hour to demonstrate. Who wants some?
KenKaniff69 Fatal Absolution 2255	Posted - 2014.03.27 03:46:00 - [14] - Quote Why not buff AV and leave hardeners alone? Hardeners are the only way to survive against mod'd rails If you take away their effectiveness, vehicle combat will consist of two shot engagements that require no tactility or skill. The problem with tanks
Vulpes Dolosus SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance 1132	Posted - 2014.03.27 03:49:00 - [15] - Quote Just what we need. More redline rail cowards. Now that their precious bathtubs can actually be dented, they won't leave and just snipe their now weakened prey. CCP, please address the redline issue. I suggest removing it all together, replacing it with bunkers/bubble shields that you can't shoot into or out of, but still allows safe spawns, regrouping and vehicles drops. Me in my ADS: 1,2
Christiphoros von Poe Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 253	Posted - 2014.03.27 03:52:00 - [16] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Just what we need. More redline rail cowards. Now that their precious bathtubs can actually be dented, they won't leave and just snipe their now weakened prey. CCP, please address the redline issue. I suggest removing it all together, replacing it with bunkers/bubble shields that you can't shoot into or out of, but still allows safe spawns, regrouping and vehicles drops. They are. Something about nerfing range on railguns and stuff (1) "Exile" Assault Rifle reserved for: Fire of Prometheus Uprising->Replication->E3->Codex->Chromosome->Uprising->???
SPESHULz The Southern Legion 70	Posted - 2014.03.27 03:54:00 - [17] - Quote nerf hardeners ok remove damage mods then Blood flows. Death comes. War rages Maths is OP. Those numbers kill you RedLineLove
sebastian the huds Legions of Infinite Dominion Zero-Day 61	Posted - 2014.03.27 03:56:00 - [18] - Quote Racro 01 Arifistan wrote: can i just have my tanks from chromosome back? Amen to that brother. If you only see from your point of view, you are doing it wrong.
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 2049	Posted - 2014.03.27 04:04:00 - [19] - Quote Rusty Shallows wrote: CCP Saberwing wrote: Yes. I don't know the exact hotfix that's planned yet (they're working on it at the moment) but we'll post an update when we know. .... ..... hit them, hit them hard with that nerf hammer >Bastard I : "Cce me ne... futt! XD"
lithkul devant Legions of Infinite Dominion Zero-Day 164	Posted - 2014.03.27 04:08:00 - [20] - Quote Maybe one day soon swarm launchers will actually be worth something again! Instead of just purely ignored damage that doesn't do anything.

bamboo x Eternal Beings Proficiency V. 429	Posted - 2014.03.27 04:14:00 - [21] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: Yes. I don't know the exact hotfix that's planned yet (they're working on it at the moment) but we'll post an update when we know. I just want you guys to know I'll go down in history as the first person who liked this post. You people who have an ego trip from proto stomping have a harsh reality waiting in life after you turn off the PS3.
Vulpes Dolosus SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance 1133	Posted - 2014.03.27 04:22:00 - [22] - Quote Christiphoros von Poe wrote: Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Just what we need. More redline rail cowards. Now that their precious bathtubs can actually be dented, they won't leave and just snipe their now weakened prey. CCP, please address the redline issue. I suggest removing it all together, replacing it with bunkers/bubble shields that you can't shoot into or out of, but still allows safe spawns, regrouping and vehicles drops. They are. Something about nerfing range on railguns and stuff Oh, well that would have been nice to know before opening my big mouth, lol. Here are the acutal tweets so far. Me in my ADS: 1,2
Tectonic Fusion 1331	Posted - 2014.03.27 04:25:00 - [23] - Quote SPESHULz wrote: nerf hardeners ok remove damage mods then No. Nerf damage mods the same way MY DAMAGE MODS WERE NERFED!!! Solo Player Squad status: Locked
Alpha 443-6732 General Tso's Alliance 374	Posted - 2014.03.27 04:44:00 - [24] - Quote KenKaniff69 wrote: Why not buff AV and leave hardeners alone? Hardeners are the only way to survive against mod'd rails If you take away their effectiveness, vehicle combat will consist of two shot engagements that require no tactility or skill. yes, nerfing hardeners only breaks railguns further
Alpha 443-6732 General Tso's Alliance 374	Posted - 2014.03.27 04:45:00 - [25] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Christiphoros von Poe wrote: Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Just what we need. More redline rail cowards. Now that their precious bathtubs can actually be dented, they won't leave and just snipe their now weakened prey. CCP, please address the redline issue. I suggest removing it all together, replacing it with bunkers/bubble shields that you can't shoot into or out of, but still allows safe spawns, regrouping and vehicles drops. They are. Something about nerfing range on railguns and stuff Oh, well that would have been nice to know before opening my big mouth, lol. Here are the acutal tweets so far. why would they nerf the range on the railgun before damage? The problem is that its the king off all ranges, so they should nerf the DPS first. railguns were never a real problem back when they had decent damage; their range was their strength
I-Shayz-I I-----I 2732	Posted - 2014.03.27 04:48:00 - [26] - Quote KenKaniff69 wrote: Why not buff AV and leave hardeners alone? Hardeners are the only way to survive against mod'd rails If you take away their effectiveness, vehicle combat will consist of two shot engagements that require no tactility or skill. Yeah nerfing tanks just messes up with the tank v tank balance...it's actually at a good place right now. Links: 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! I make logistics videos!
Mobius Wyvern Ahrendee Mercenaries Dirt Nap Squad. 4934	Posted - 2014.03.27 04:50:00 - [27] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: Yes. I don't know the exact hotfix that's planned yet (they're working on it at the moment) but we'll post an update when we know. inb4 Hardeners are useless and all vehicles die in two shots. Except for Assault Dropships, which die to dirty looks. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 1886	Posted - 2014.03.27 04:53:00 - [28] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: KenKaniff69 wrote: Why not buff AV and leave hardeners alone? Hardeners are the only way to survive against mod'd rails If you take away their effectiveness, vehicle combat will consist of two shot engagements that require no tactility or skill. Yeah nerfing tanks just messes up with the tank v tank balance...it's actually at a good place right now. The whole thing is almost at a good place right now - this makes me sad because it's not nerfs to hardener %ages or railgun range that we need. Now Wolfman is adjusting non-core variables. Who the hell came up with the WOO model in the first place? Sheesh. Would love to be wrong, but i'm thinking this isn't going to end well. I support SP rollover.
MarasdF Loron Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 278	Posted - 2014.03.27 05:00:00 - [29] - Quote Christiphoros von Poe wrote: Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Just what we need. More redline rail cowards. Now that their precious bathtubs can actually be dented, they won't leave and just snipe their now weakened prey. CCP, please address the redline issue. I suggest removing it all together, replacing it with bunkers/bubble shields that you can't shoot into or out of, but still allows safe spawns, regrouping and vehicles drops. They are. Something about nerfing range on railguns and stuff So the only long range weapon vehicles have becomes CQC only weapon too, good job CCP. Ps. I don't redline rail, but this aint the way to go. R.I.P. Pre-1.7 tanks, you will be missed.
Chris F2112 Pradox One Proficiency V. 560	Posted - 2014.03.27 05:02:00 - [30] - Quote Ugh. Hardeners on my Python are actually in a pretty decent place right now against everything but swarms (swarms are a joke right now and need a buff). Without decent hardeners though I won't be able to effectively engage any sort of infantry AV. I'll just be dead up there before I even get a decent chance to fight back. What this really shows is the need to separate dropship mod stats from tank mod stats. It's silly that they can expect to balance two completely different vehicles as long as the mods they can use are identical on both. Same thing with the small turrets.

Kairos Nitak Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 22	Posted - 2014.03.27 05:12:00 - [31] - Quote Before they changed the whole vehicle balance everything was fine except for the fact that tankers were losing so much money that it wasn't worth it. They should have just reduced the price and everything would be ok. Infantry would have a fighting chance and tankers wouldn't be in the poor house.

CCP Saberwing C C P C C P Alliance 2902	Posted - 2014.03.27 05:17:00 - [32] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: KenKaniff69 wrote: Why not buff AV and leave hardeners alone? Hardeners are the only way to survive against mod'd rails If you take away their effectiveness, vehicle combat will consist of two shot engagements that require no tactility or skill. Yeah nerfing tanks just messes up with the tank v tank balance...it's actually at a good place right now. Okay, thanks for the feedback guys. A couple questions then (and I'll relay this to the team): - How would you suggest going improving the tank situation? Increasing the viability of AV? - How would you go about fixing Railguns, if not range reduction? I believe damage fall-off is not an option for a server-side hotfix. CCP Saberwing // DUST 514 Community Manager // @kanafchian

MarasdF Loron Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 278	Posted - 2014.03.27 05:25:00 - [33] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: KenKaniff69 wrote: Why not buff AV and leave hardeners alone? Hardeners are the only way to survive against mod'd rails If you take away their effectiveness, vehicle combat will consist of two shot engagements that require no tactility or skill. Yeah nerfing tanks just messes up with the tank v tank balance...it's actually at a good place right now. Okay, thanks for the feedback guys. A couple questions then (and I'll relay this to the team): - How would you suggest going improving the tank situation? Increasing the viability of AV? - How would you go about fixing Railguns, if not range reduction? I believe damage fall-off is not an option for a server-side hotfix. Fixing swarms to do the damage they are supposed to do would be a start to see what more needs to be done. 100% more time between each Railgun shot. My .2 ISK R.I.P. Pre-1.7 tanks, you will be missed.
Meisterjager Jagermeister 43	Posted - 2014.03.27 05:26:00 - [34] - Quote I think the slower regen of hp is a good idea.
Kovinis Sparagas Bullet Cluster 189	Posted - 2014.03.27 05:33:00 - [35] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: KenKaniff69 wrote: Why not buff AV and leave hardeners alone? Hardeners are the only way to survive against mod'd rails If you take away their effectiveness, vehicle combat will consist of two shot engagements that require no tactility or skill. Yeah nerfing tanks just messes up with the tank v tank balance...it's actually at a good place right now. Okay, thanks for the feedback guys. A couple questions then (and I'll relay this to the team): - How would you suggest going improving the tank situation? Increasing the viability of AV? - How would you go about fixing Railguns, if not range reduction? I believe damage fall-off is not an option for a server-side hotfix. wow! CCP ask us for help! Now I've seen it all! ok am... well... am... don't know what to say. I want to help and this is my only chance. I need not to screw up! hello can't really say about the first one, but can comment on the second one: for me range comes to one thing: more range - less damage. So for me Railguns should be very long range (as it is) but small damage. And why not use some practice from EVE Online? If you try to shoot small object with a bigger gun, you make less damage. And guns rotate slower - it also helps small objects to escapte it's death guns. So this way HAVs and mercenaries can co-exist but don't really matter one about the other, and the real battle would be HAVs vs HAVs and mercs vs mercs. Two games in one. Two dimensions. Like in trailers. I hope I helped a little bit. Always wanted to be useful I support BPO removal; RDV to take your vehicles back; and racial weapons on starter fits
BIGRED 4UALL Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1	Posted - 2014.03.27 05:35:00 - [36] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: KenKaniff69 wrote: Why not buff AV and leave hardeners alone? Hardeners are the only way to survive against mod'd rails If you take away their effectiveness, vehicle combat will consist of two shot engagements that require no tactility or skill. Yeah nerfing tanks just messes up with the tank v tank balance...it's actually at a good place right now. Okay, thanks for the feedback guys. A couple questions then (and I'll relay this to the team): - How would you suggest going improving the tank situation? Increasing the viability of AV? - How would you go about fixing Railguns, if not range reduction? I believe damage fall-off is not an option for a server-side hotfix. What my suggestion would be is when the hardeners are on take away the ability to shoot the weapon. Railgun range should be reduced the same as the turrets on the battle field should be reduced. And as far as that goes the forge gun range should be reduced as well.
Psychotic Shooter Ancient Exiles. Dirt Nap Squad. 161	Posted - 2014.03.27 05:39:00 - [37] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: KenKaniff69 wrote: Why not buff AV and leave hardeners alone? Hardeners are the only way to survive against mod'd rails If you take away their effectiveness, vehicle combat will consist of two shot engagements that require no tactility or skill. Yeah nerfing tanks just messes up with the tank v tank balance...it's actually at a good place right now. Okay, thanks for the feedback guys. A couple questions then (and I'll relay this to the team): - How would you suggest going improving the tank situation? Increasing the viability of AV? - How would you go about fixing Railguns, if not range reduction? I believe damage fall-off is not an option for a server-side hotfix. Hey CCP Saberwing To improve the Tank Vs Infantry Situation I would increse the despersion on the blaster making it harder to hit infantry I would reduce shield Hardener since armour tanks can be taken out by av hardened shield tank are pretty much unbeatable, i would also take vehicle damage mods down to 15% I Would leave Rail damage where it is no fall of since it is a Long range weapon but i would increase the shot interval from 1.4 second to either 2.0 or 2.5 also if you take your finger of the trigger the rail should have to cool down to 0 before you can start shooting again this would prevent people from taking there finger of the trigger to get over the delay between shots. Dust 514 Closed Beta Vet Tanker for Hire Contact me in game
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 2390	Posted - 2014.03.27 05:39:00 - [38] - Quote Rails need a dps reduction, through rof reduction imo
Bro-metheus Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 70	Posted - 2014.03.27 05:39:00 - [39] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: KenKaniff69 wrote: Why not buff AV and leave hardeners alone? Hardeners are the only way to survive against mod'd rails If you take away their effectiveness, vehicle combat will consist of two shot engagements that require no tactility or skill. Yeah nerfing tanks just messes up with the tank v tank balance...it's actually at a good place right now. Okay, thanks for the feedback guys. A couple questions then (and I'll relay this to the team): - How would you suggest going improving the tank situation? Increasing the viability of AV? - How would you go about fixing Railguns, if not range reduction? I believe damage fall-off is not an option for a server-side hotfix. Increase the cooldown between shots for the railgun, lower the ammo count. increase the charge up time for railgun shots. decrease overall railgun dmg. remove splash from the railguns. remove tanks seeing infanry at long range IE they can only see other vech and stuff long range. Make tanks only first person view. Make tank recall only for the red line. Do not reward war points for tank shots from the redline. Reduce tank warpoints for kills on infantry. lots of options, cant tell you which one of those to use. For the AV side you need to fix the swarms Pri #1 for the forge gun you need to up its range by 25% and its dmg needs a good buff. here is the main thing though. If you look at the Differential between specing inf suits. Lets say you take a heavy suit. now you can brick tank it and you can speed tank it but the dif is not massive compared to the weapons it faces. the Spread of EHP and other factors on tanks is insanely large. This makes balancing far far more unwieldy. you will notice this more when you try to install the other racial tanks. to get noticeable dif between them your going to have to go to even more extremes to make them noticeable. You need to close that gap. No matter the tank, asking for more then 2 forge gun AV to be required to fight it/counter it effectively (right now that number is somewhere in the 5-6 AV needed for a good kill mark and that is insane) is a recipe for disaster. you need to close ranks on the tank spead. So to do that, you up the base stats of the tanks, you drop down the % increase from moduals to relative how the spread for Dropsuits is. And you take the AV damage and buff it to the DPS necessary. It should never take more then 2 proto swarms to take out a proto tank if they both empty their magazines into him and no more the 1 proto av to take out a proto tank if he gets all of his forge gun hits before reload. Now i know by now tankers are freaking out. but here is the thing DROP the tank prices to reflect this. OR up the rewards AV gets for the tank kill and the Reward tanks get for kills. This is a good way to adjust AV. Now with regards to a hotfix. Right Now the tank EHP and hardener spread is TOO LARGE. you buff AV enough to be effective against dual hardeners, all other tanks get crushed and Dual harder is the only way to go/survive. that is a fact. You need to bring hardeners down to a rate where they are still useful but the spread is not more then lets say 15%-25% and the cool downs reflect a sensible game play style. Then adjust AV to match it. You need to think hard about how much spread you want in tank moduals. too much and its literally unbalanceable vs av because hardeners will create to much spread. same goes for all tank moduals.
Skihids Bullet Cluster 3163	Posted - 2014.03.27 05:40:00 - [40] - Quote Eliminate the full auto on rails. Make them spool up for each shot and make that spool time significant. That would prevent them from killing dropships in 1.5 seconds. Though range reduction for redline rails is very tempting. It's not realistic, but it does solve the risk vs. reward problem. Can you prevent all shooting out of the redline?

Kairos Nitak Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 22	Posted - 2014.03.27 05:44:00 - [41] - Quote Yes please! Buff AV! And can we please have our 3rd av nade back? Even if they're buffed, 2 nades is worthless. The forge gun is the only decent av we've had in a while.. and right now its glitching. Swarms are absolutely worthless and plasma cannons are impossible to use unless the vehicle is close and not moving.. if you're lucky enough to hit them you should at least be rewarded.
Skihids Bullet Cluster 3163	Posted - 2014.03.27 05:47:00 - [42] - Quote Long term you need to separate infantry and vehicles. Give them different tasks and they won't have to be balanced against each other so strictly.
Vell0cet SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance 1270	Posted - 2014.03.27 05:50:00 - [43] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: KenKaniff69 wrote: Why not buff AV and leave hardeners alone? Hardeners are the only way to survive against mod'd rails If you take away their effectiveness, vehicle combat will consist of two shot engagements that require no tactility or skill. Yeah nerfing tanks just messes up with the tank v tank balance...it's actually at a good place right now. Okay, thanks for the feedback guys. A couple questions then (and I'll relay this to the team): - How would you suggest going improving the tank situation? Increasing the viability of AV? - How would you go about fixing Railguns, if not range reduction? I believe damage fall-off is not an option for a server-side hotfix. Nerfing the secret resistances mentioned in Judge's swarm videos would be a good place to start. Making things more overt helps everyone figure out balance. I think the biggest issue with rail guns is the redline itself. There obviously needs to be SOMETHING in place to prevent spawn camping the enemy MCC, but it is a difficult problem. I can't comment on rail tank damage itself, perhaps it needs changes too, but the issue of redline rail tanks is the redline itself for sure. One mechanism for redline fixes that might work is to have your timer for entering the enemy redline function like stamina or the cloak (instead of resetting to full every time you leave the enemy redline). You have a capped amount of time (maybe 40 seconds), exiting the enemy redline slowly charges that time back up. If it ever hits 0 then you're dead. Even just limiting this for the arial redline might be sufficient. Your dropship won't be able to linger in the enemy airspace for more than 40 seconds, and it'll take 40 seconds out of the redline to recharge, so you can't spawn camp for long periods (certainly long enough for the enemy to spawn in some AV fits and take you out the next time you cross the line. This likely isn't hot fixable. I don't think addressing the deep and intricate problems involved with balancing AV and vehicles should be handled as a hotfix. I'd like to see a 1.9 patch quickly in April before the big fanfest stuff you guys have planned, with no new content, just balancing and bug fixes. It would be healthy for the game. It would also take the pressure off the team if the fanfest goodies end up getting delayed (as big, exciting new things tend to), since the game should be in a reasonably balanced place. Best PvE idea ever!
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 799	Posted - 2014.03.27 05:53:00 - [44] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: KenKaniff69 wrote: Why not buff AV and leave hardeners alone? Hardeners are the only way to survive against mod'd rails If you take away their effectiveness, vehicle combat will consist of two shot engagements that require no tactility or skill. Yeah nerfing tanks just messes up with the tank v tank balance...it's actually at a good place right now. Okay, thanks for the feedback guys. A couple questions then (and I'll relay this to the team): - How would you suggest going improving the tank situation? Increasing the viability of AV? - How would you go about fixing Railguns, if not range reduction? I believe damage fall-off is not an option for a server-side hotfix. I am going to try to be objective and reasonable as possible. Yes, I am a full time tanker. Yes, I don't want them to be in bad as a place as they were in 1.6. No, I don't want a win machine. Tank v. Tank feels right about now. You have the glass cannons that can kill the brick but only if they get the drop. It seems balanced to me. Buffing AV means that LAV's and Dropships get hurt pretty bad. Going full nerd: If the DM makes the monsters to-hit high enough to hit the Sword and Board fighter, the monsters are going to absolutely crush the bard in a single hit. I don't think that AV as a whole is too weak. Forge Guns are quite deadly to my Madrugar. Swarms are a joke. I have seen them not even be able to break my Shield Regeneration before, and they cannot with my Gunnlogi. First thing is to ensure that any AV / vehicle weapon can stop Shield regeneration. So if the limit is 100 damage, make it count before damage reduction. So if a Swarm was going to do 120 damage before reduction but is hit down to 95, it still stops regeneration while doing 95 per hit. Made this a while back. Railgun range is annoying. Seeing Mr. Sica in the redline taking pot shots at everything is annoying. I hit him, he rolls back. Range won't fix that though, just reduce the area by which he can deny other vehicles so that is another problem. The range probably should be reduced but not overly. It still needs to be a viable mid-long range weapon out in the field but not total area denial from the redline. Make hardeners share the same CD. Let them still be fit and used but make them ALL activate when a single one is used. This would mean that a tank that is meant to kill another tank in a single engagement, say damage mod 2-hardener gunnlogi, still works. They activate their hardener and both turn on. They have their 80% resistance for that ONE fight. Afterwards, they are vulnerable. That is a "wave of opportunity." This change, rather than just saying "1 hardener per customer" doesn't limit the builds significantly. Double Hardener Madrugar still works but it is now EXTREMELY difficult to kill for a portion of time rather than being very hard to kill ALL the time and being able to choose to be EXTREMELY difficult to kill for a portion of time. Possibly increase the CD of hardeners if multiple ones are used at the same time. Say an extra 20% CD for each additional one. It still keeps it a choice without making it the obvious choice. Right now, two complex hardeners on a Madrugar means the hardeners are active all the time. Three on a shield vehicle means it has 60% reduction all the time. No "wave of opportunity." Undo the nerf to weapon proficiency for Forge Guns and Swarm Launchers. Make it like the Nova Knife one. Possibly, and I mean be really careful with this, introduce "AV Weapon Damage Modifications" that increase the damage of AV weaponry by more than 3/4/5%. Might be a problem for the Forge and Plasma Cannon though as they might get to "splash kills infantry" points. Militia tanks need to lose a high or low slot. Sica and Soma both being 2:2 does not show the advantages of either. It just means that people dual tank with a Sica because it has more PG/CPU. Reduce the Sica to 2:1 and the Soma to 1:2. This lets people test if they want to be an armor tank or a shield tank while lowering the power of a militia tank spam. Damage mods on vehicles are too powerful. 30% is kind of insane. It turns a Militia turret into a Prototype Turret. They stack too easily. Either make it 1 per customer, reduce the amount it adds, or severely hit the stacking penalty. A tank with a Prototype Railgun and two or three damage can two shot just about anything. If it is running hardeners, three shots... The Militia tank thing is the most obvious "do this" in my book. "People that quote themselves in signatures confuse me." -Joseph Ridgeson
Vulpes Dolosus SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance 1136	Posted - 2014.03.27 06:43:00 - [45] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: KenKaniff69 wrote: Why not buff AV and leave hardeners alone? Hardeners are the only way to survive against mod'd rails If you take away their effectiveness, vehicle combat will consist of two shot engagements that require no tactility or skill. Yeah nerfing tanks just messes up with the tank v tank balance...it's actually at a good place right now. Okay, thanks for the feedback guys. A couple questions then (and I'll relay this to the team): - How would you suggest going improving the tank situation? Increasing the viability of AV? - How would you go about fixing Railguns, if not range reduction? I believe damage fall-off is not an option for a server-side hotfix. - Biggest thing to remember is to not over look how these changes "balance" with other vehicles. ADSs and LAVs are in a good spot, defensively (though the Saga could use more CPU), if you ask me. I do think that, with the new changes to Prof skills and damage mods, the damage for AV could get a buff across the board, especially swarms (though not back to pre1.7 levels). Other than that, I think we just need some new content. More infantry AV weapons, especially heavy, will make the battlefield more dynamic and bring more threats, especial to shield based vehicles. E-War, such as webifiers, could also help turn the tides of AV vs V due to cleverness instead of raw firepower. New vehicle turrets will add some variety to the mix of AV vehicles, perhaps. In addition to some nerfs, logi vehicles could make a stunning return and actually fulfill a vital role. (I've made threads about most/ all if you're interested in some of my ideas). - The biggest problem with rails, imho, is the redline. Pure in simple, they can reach far, over the whole map in most cases, with impunity, and the only way to get them back is to take your rail tank to midfield/the enemy redline and attempt to kill them (which more than not doesn't happen because after the first or second shot, they duck behind a hill). Imo, the easiest way to end this (and other redline abuses) is to just get rid of it. Add bubble shields/ bunkers (whatever the map will allow) that can't be shot into or out of and let the rest of the playable map be open. The only other things I'd suggest is a nerf to damage mods (to about 15-20% I guess), increase to rail fitting costs (to remove their tanking ability for ganking), RoF a little, Me in my ADS: 1,2
GVGMODE WorstPlayersEver 152	Posted - 2014.03.27 06:43:00 - [46] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: [quote=I-Shayz-I][quote=KenKaniff69] Okay, thanks for the feedback guys. A couple questions then (and I'll relay this to the team): - How would you suggest going improving the tank situation? Increasing the viability of AV? - would you go about fixing Railguns, if not range reduction? I believe damage fall-off is not an option for a server-side hotfix. Listening non vehicle players is a key for disaster. - How would you suggest going improving the tank situation? Increasing the viability of AV? It has been said so many times un-tiercide the modules. You cannot have MLT-STD-ADV modules with the same duration/cooldown/ damage resistance as PROTOTYPE level and expect to have a good situation in regards to tanks. There is no reason for a player with 0 SP into vehicles to invest in them at the moment, because MLT modules+tanks are so disposable (price) and effective that they will spam them and don't mind if it blows because it only costs 68k to spam the next MLt tank Go drive a tank and try to sustain damage from 2 to 3 forge gunners at the same time and you will wipe, watch a +20M SP pilot die to a bomb jeep driver that has only 1/100 of your total SP invested in remote explosives and costs 20 times less, watch a player solo a tank by using sticky REs on your weak spot. - How would you go about fixing Railguns, if not range reduction? I believe damage fall-off is not an option for a server-side hotfix. Increase the gap between MLT-STD-ADV-PRO turrets (not just rails), since the damage gap is so little a MLT turret can kill a fully hardened Tank that is using PRO modules easily. In a ADS vs Tanks scenario without involving the redline, additional AV/tank hitting each other... the ADS should win because they can hover over the tank without any risk due to turret motion/angle, the tank cannot fight back and the ADS can also reach a tremendous height in seconds if needed. As for rails well it is good at killing vehicles, which is its main role since the splash radius it has is a joke and calculating the projectile travel time vs a moving target such as infantry does require some experience with them. Overall changes to vehicles: - Un-tiercide the modules and increase the gap between them - Reduce the CPU and PG of MLT and STD tanks, assuming we get ADV level vehicle per se marauder class. - Increase the damage gap between current turrets. - Increase the damage profile of swarms vs ADS from 55% to 75% at least - Reduce the turbulence of ADS when being hit. - Bomb jeeps with Remote Explosives need to go, they discourage tankers to play in the field and stay in the redline ( it costs 0 ISK and less than a couple skill points to make one with BPOs or 25k ISK without BPOs) Pilot: (Tanks / Assault Dropships) Skype: GVGMODE
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8962	Posted - 2014.03.27 06:46:00 - [47] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: KenKaniff69 wrote: Why not buff AV and leave hardeners alone? Hardeners are the only way to survive against mod'd rails If you take away their effectiveness, vehicle combat will consist of two shot engagements that require no tactility or skill. Yeah nerfing tanks just messes up with the tank v tank balance...it's actually at a good place right now. Okay, thanks for the feedback guys. A couple questions then (and I'll relay this to the team): - How would you suggest going improving the tank situation? Increasing the viability of AV? - How would you go about fixing Railguns, if not range reduction? I believe damage fall-off is not an option for a server-side hotfix. I have several suggestions to possibly fix the tank situation but first I should make my stance on the matter very clear. I do not believe vehicle balance can ever be achieved if we are constantly making additions and variations to and on AV weaponry. I personally believe we should strive for a static AV model whereby AV values are set to their respective tiers and there they remain. At which point community wide testing can occur and feed back given to you or the CPM in regards to future developments. Initially I would suggest a 5% increase to the damage profiles of AV weaponry, by this I mean their damage values, to bring them more inline with current HAV units. This is a small buff and can be further improved on should this buff fail to provide adequate results. I further believe that if any changes are to be made regarding AV vs Vehicle combat, such changes should be made on the vehicle side of things and balanced around the static AV values. These are some suggestions I have heard and or developed myself which could be applied together, or individually, the goal of which is to de-incentivise the use of multiple hardener units by reducing their efficiency or value as a module. - Decrease is resistance applied by Shield Hardener units by 10% (down to 50%) and Armour Hardener units by 5% ( Down to 35%) - An increase to the fitting costs of Armour and Shield Hardeners buy between 5-10% -A decrease in the duration of Armour Hardeers down to 30 seconds from 36 Seconds and Shield Hardners down to 20 seconds from 24 seconds. - A Hardener timer much akin to the Cloak Timer which places a limit on the activation of Armour and Shield Hardeners. The initial module activates and runs its duration after which the initial hardener unit begins its cooldown while all other hardner units enter a cool down equivalent to half the intial hardeners cool down timer. E.G- A Madrugar is running two Basic Armour Hardners. Under fire the Pilot activates one of the Hardeners and the effect lasts 36 seconds. After which the Activated Basic Armour Hardener enters it primary cool down and the inactive one enters the halved cool down time. I believe the later suggestion would not only de-incentivise the use of Hardener modules while not arbitrarily capping or limiting players, but also would reinforce the waves of opportunity concept CCP Wolfman was going for. As I said before we need not apply them all but a few might go a long was to achieving some much needed temprorary balance until further AV options can be introduced to flesh out the AV tree and more Vehicles introduced to flesh out those trees as well. At which point we could then reassess how AV vs Vehicle works and make the necessary alterations to achieve a much more desired balance. As for Railguns I would address them as follows. I would not cap rail gun range at a lesser value. Limiting the range of the railgun already makes no sense, but in the interest of game balance I feel between 500-600m is appropriate. I would decrease the RoF, placing a chambering of a Hybrid charge in between the consecutive rounds, or simply a charge time between each shot. I would also decrease the elevation of the Railgun, decreasing its capacity to engage low flying air craft unless at longer range, and preventing the exploitation of hills to essentially provide 360 degree firing. Additionally I would alter HAV barrel depression, on all turrets, so that turrets do not have such a large down wards angle with which to hit infantry at close range. Damage in my mind does not need to be altered, a slower firing Railgun should be able to with its magazine be able to inflict a kill on, or at least severely damage a vehicle as it is designed to do. "Get thine Swag out of my face! Next you'll be writing #YOLOswagforJamyl in all your posts!" -Dagger Two
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 1900	Posted - 2014.03.27 06:57:00 - [48] - Quote He is asking for an idea on how to fix tank and AV balance with a quick fix, not how to revamp the tanks again dudes. I would say, make it impossible to fit more than one hardener on all tank hulls. Just like you can only fit one cloak on infantry. Also make it impossible to fit more than one damage mod on all tank hulls. Hopefully this is only one parameter that has to be changed, and it can be done in the item DB without compiling !? Drop it like its hat.

CCP Saberwing C C P C C P Alliance 2905	Posted - 2014.03.27 06:58:00 - [49] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: Hopefully this is only one parameter that has to be changed, and it can be done in the item DB without compiling !? Yep, we'd aim to get this out on a server-side hotfix rather than having to submit a downloadable patch. It limits our options somewhat, but we're keeping an eye on this thread and discussing. CCP Saberwing // DUST 514 Community Manager // @kanafchian

Bar Be Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 21	Posted - 2014.03.27 07:05:00 - [50] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: Okay, thanks for the feedback guys. A couple questions then (and I'll relay this to the team): - How would you suggest going improving the tank situation? Increasing the viability of AV? - How would you go about fixing Railguns, if not range reduction? I believe damage fall-off is not an option for a server-side hotfix. I don't understand. After many constructive threads, videos etc on this in the months since 1.7 dropped you ask moments before the change is made... Eh? I would suggest someone puts a bit of effort into digging through the forums and YouTube for the nuggets of gold amongst the BS. What are the odds of a good hotfix idea being fairly presented and debated in this single thread..? As an infantry player my main counter to tanks is not to play Ambush...

COVERT SUBTERFUGE PSU GHOST SYNDICATE DARKSTAR ARMY 783	Posted - 2014.03.27 07:06:00 - [51] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: He is asking for an idea on how to fix tank and AV balance with a quick fix, not how to revamp the tanks again dudes. I would say, make it impossible to fit more than one hardener on all tank hulls. Just like you can only fit one cloak on infantry. Also make it impossible to fit more than one damage mod on all tank hulls. Hopefully this is only one parameter that has to be changed, and it can be done in the item DB without compiling !? Tanks shouldn't be able to have multiple hardeners. That's the biggest issue, they stack them and can't be hurt. Just buff AV back to where it was before you huys nuked it. Buff swarm damage back to where it was and increase the range again. Proud Minmatar scout - Republic Merc 7/10 Immune to bitter/jaded vet syndrome Alt of THE GREY CARDINAL - eWar Merc
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 11820	Posted - 2014.03.27 07:09:00 - [52] - Quote Zirzo Valcyn wrote: it's the plates that need nerfing. nerf the plates. Get out. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Kitt 514 True North. 144	Posted - 2014.03.27 07:10:00 - [53] - Quote Damage Tank Speed Pick two, and you will balance vehicles. Tanks have all 3, so even if you can hurt a tank, it can just zip away.
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 5366	Posted - 2014.03.27 07:12:00 - [54] - Quote AV definitely needs to be more viable. Tanks are in a decent place, I feel, apart from some edge cases that usually are related to AV not being viable (shields recharging through AV damage). (Edit: But for the love of god, please take this in moderation... Let's go slow with this, bump it up until it works, not bump it too high, then back down, and back up like we've been doing xD) If Railguns are a problem from the redline, I'd much rather just deal with it for another month or so to have them fixed right (implementing falloff) instead of making a vindictive change to their range that reduces their overall effectiveness as a whole. Reducing range is a bandaid that doesn't really work because, no matter what, there will always be cases where they're able to shoot out of the redline, or just stay back there and wait for the enemy to come to them. Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
Captain Crutches Nexus Marines 65	Posted - 2014.03.27 07:14:00 - [55] - Quote I'm not a tanker or AV specialist, just a Rail Rifle toting assault wannabe, but it seems the thing to do is buff AV more than nerf tanks. About the only AV stuff I ever see is forge guns currently, and those are barely scraping by as a means of tickling tanks enough to make them back off for a few seconds. I'd say consider at least these things, in no particular order and with no presumption to know methods, numbers, or plausibility because it's 3 AM and I'll soon hate myself for still being awake: - Buff swarm damage and/or range, and while you're at it maybe bring back dumbfire because that was kinda cool IMO - Buff AV grenade damage and/or give us 3 of those again (used to only ever run those back in the murder taxi days, worked wonders) - Make the plasma cannon not sh!t, somehow - Nerf range/firing arc on rail tanks to keep them out of the redline, as Judge Rhadamanthus explained No idea if those are plausible or reasonable goals, but they're what came to mind off the top of my head. Glad to see this is being addressed. Now off to bed~ Anti-Respec \| Anti-Protostomp \| Anti-"Slayer Logi" \| Pro-Tiericide \| Pro-EVE/Dust Link \| Pro-CCP Fun > Winning > KDR
The-Errorist 582	Posted - 2014.03.27 07:14:00 - [56] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: KenKaniff69 wrote: Why not buff AV and leave hardeners alone? Hardeners are the only way to survive against mod'd rails If you take away their effectiveness, vehicle combat will consist of two shot engagements that require no tactility or skill. Yeah nerfing tanks just messes up with the tank v tank balance...it's actually at a good place right now. Okay, thanks for the feedback guys. A couple questions then (and I'll relay this to the team): - How would you suggest going improving the tank situation? Increasing the viability of AV? - How would you go about fixing Railguns, if not range reduction? I believe damage fall-off is not an option for a server-side hotfix. When uprising 1.8 came, the ttk of unhardened vehicles vs other unhardened vehicles dropped dramatically (not counting damage mods). Contrary to what CCP intended, that made tanking less fun and made hardeners too important. Hardeners need nerfed by 5% and they would also need to have a shorter active duration or have higher fitting costs. They are just too useful to not have much of a downside. The only problem with large railguns are that they have way to much damage per second than large blasters and higher damage per minute than large blasters and missiles. For the weapon that has the largest optimal range, it should have the least dps and or dmp. To improve AV and vehicle balance in general: shield tanks should not be able to continue repairing while under fire, the shield delay damage threshold is too high. Armor repair modules are too effective and to be nerfed; on an Gallente, tank you can get a permanent repair rate very close to a shield recharge rate of a Caldari one, have a hardener, and still be able to get an advanced large turret. On a Incubus, you can stack all of the low slots with armor repairs and repair more damage per second than 3 assault forge-gunners can deal. Flux and AV grenades need their capacity increased back to 3. Plasma cannon projectile speed is too slow and it needs to have 2 rounds per magazine. Swarm launcher range lock-on needs to be increased by at most 50m or they need their missile speed increased. Not as important changes that would make vehicles VS infantry more balanced: Tanks have more innate resistance to light weapons than light and medium vehicles when they don't need it. When one is in a vehicle, there should be a swarm launcher lock-on notification.
darkiller240 WarRavens League of Infamy 646	Posted - 2014.03.27 07:27:00 - [57] - Quote God friking damit DONT NERF ALL VEHICLE ONLY NERF TANKS >:( "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8963	Posted - 2014.03.27 07:45:00 - [58] - Quote darkiller240 wrote: God friking damit DONT NERF ALL VEHICLE ONLY NERF TANKS >:( You cannot arbitrarily nerf one vehicle....that is not balanced. All vehicles should function off of the same mechanics as one another. Just as a simply buff to AV cannot only be made affect on one vehicle type. AV, and Vehicle gameplay must be made consistent throughout the entire game. For example a dropship should never be more durable than an HAV, just an an HAV should never be faster than an LAV, just as a Railgun should do the same damage to a tank as a dropship, then so too should AV do the same damage to dropships as HAV. "Get thine Swag out of my face! Next you'll be writing #YOLOswagforJamyl in all your posts!" -Dagger Two
Johnny Guilt Algintal Core 617	Posted - 2014.03.27 07:45:00 - [59] - Quote Is this why iv been able to kill DSs and Tanks with the forge tonight? it's like Chrismas! A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. GalHeav E-vo
Dovallis Martan JenusKoll Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 698	Posted - 2014.03.27 07:48:00 - [60] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: Spectral Clone wrote: Hopefully this is only one parameter that has to be changed, and it can be done in the item DB without compiling !? Yep, we'd aim to get this out on a server-side hotfix rather than having to submit a downloadable patch. It limits our options somewhat, but we're keeping an eye on this thread and discussing. Scaling railgun damage down so that the ADV and PRO versions are closer to the STD variant would be a start. If damage from Railguns and Large Missiles are reduced then the hardeners could also be brought down a tad, as they won't be needed quite as strong. Reducing the alpha damage of major anti vehicle weaponry would reduce the need for hardeners to be so severe (Railguns, Large Missile, Forge Gun only) This would also permit the other types of weaponry to suddenly be more effective vs vehicles, instead of useless annoyances (such as the Mass Driver and Plasma Cannon) This would also allow relative weaponry such as Remote explosives and Proximity mines to have a larger niche as well, since they are technically Melee class AV. Mind you, that if you nerf hardeners now, when Webifiers come out you will have to raise the power of hardeners again because of vulnerability ratios. If you can read this, it means you are reading. Unless you are skimming

wripple WarRavens League of Infamy 140	Posted - 2014.03.27 07:56:00 - [61] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: KenKaniff69 wrote: Why not buff AV and leave hardeners alone? Hardeners are the only way to survive against mod'd rails If you take away their effectiveness, vehicle combat will consist of two shot engagements that require no tactility or skill. Yeah nerfing tanks just messes up with the tank v tank balance...it's actually at a good place right now. Okay, thanks for the feedback guys. A couple questions then (and I'll relay this to the team): - How would you suggest going improving the tank situation? Increasing the viability of AV? - How would you go about fixing Railguns, if not range reduction? I believe damage fall-off is not an option for a server-side hotfix. Longer spool time, longer RoF, and tank rails don't fire from within the redline (the AI lady does say I'm obligated to deploy to the burn zone, thus I shouldn't be aloud to cower back there in a tank) I also believe rails should half a vehicle's speed due to their energy cunsumption and mass, helping solve the CQC rail spam. Also, it would be nice to have vehicles automatically dual hardened while attached to the Bolas, tired of tanks two shotting my redline RDVs while the glitchy AI plays yo-yo with my 500,000 ISK pythons. Feel like swarms need some love as well, like faster missile speed (they're missiles, they should be crazy fast) and the ability to disrupt inactivated modules into 4 second cool down would prevent allot of nitro Maddies from escaping and ADSs from hardening to invincibility. Or perhaps the missiles disrupt those crazy armor repairs for a couple seconds (nanites don't like working around explosions) Hardeners also should decrease regeneration and repair proportional to the damage reduction (shields should not regen while taking blaster damage)
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 130	Posted - 2014.03.27 08:12:00 - [62] - Quote Coming from an absolute noob tanker: - Vehicle vs vehicle seems balanced right now (apart from red line rails), so I am sceptical to nerf any vehicle modules without causing unexpected effects. AV needs a buff: - fix the problem with swarms (see judge's video). If this is not hoxfixable, temporally increase the damage until permanent fix is introduced. - increase the number of av grenades back to 3 (or even 4?) - forge guns are ok I think. Redline rail problem: - plenty of options, but if it is possible to increase the redline timeout I think this will help. Remember, the rail fits are not the problem, it is that you can't get to them. Overall, there are plenty of ideas out there, but the problem is that WE don't know what is hotfixable. If you really want the community feedback, make a short list of things that are purely server side and let's have a discussion.
Darken-Soul BIG BAD W0LVES Canis Eliminatus Operatives 1668	Posted - 2014.03.27 08:16:00 - [63] - Quote If I could make a suggestion, FG charge time could be restored. As a tanker I feel no threat from 1-2FGs. I can easily kill one and tank the other. As a FG the RoF increase would help Scare tankers off, or destroy them. In infantry combat it would help keep rifles off while I do my damndest to kill ADS and tanks. You will also need to return AV and Flux back to 3grenades. Ihave no opinion on swarms, I do not use them. Who wants some?
Buzzwords Deadly Blue Dots 506	Posted - 2014.03.27 08:16:00 - [64] - Quote it's tough. nerfing HAV defenses too hard returns tank combat to a battle of "who saw who first" almost requiring that HAV weapons ALSO be nerfed, but if you nerf tank weapons too hard they become giant rolling liabilities. then buffing infantry AV might leave LAVs and dropships out to dry (but really, how many people use LAVs and dropships compared to how many people use HAVs?) i vote for the restoration of infantry AV. give us back the third AV grenade, let the swarms have range and let the forge guns charge fast, and let them all hit hard. once AV vs HAV is solved, that opens the way to rework LAVs and dropships so they fit in. it will suck for LAVs and dropships for a while, but lets be perfectly honest, 99% of those are just used to camp rooftops and run people over anyway.
Darken-Soul BIG BAD W0LVES Canis Eliminatus Operatives 1668	Posted - 2014.03.27 08:18:00 - [65] - Quote Also the default for abandoned vehicles needs to be recall them. It is silly that they are programmed to explode. Who wants some?
Justicar Karnellia Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 764	Posted - 2014.03.27 08:23:00 - [66] - Quote Bar Be wrote: CCP Saberwing wrote: Okay, thanks for the feedback guys. A couple questions then (and I'll relay this to the team): - How would you suggest going improving the tank situation? Increasing the viability of AV? - How would you go about fixing Railguns, if not range reduction? I believe damage fall-off is not an option for a server-side hotfix. I don't understand. After many constructive threads, videos etc on this in the months since 1.7 dropped you ask moments before the change is made... Eh? I would suggest someone puts a bit of effort into digging through the forums and YouTube for the nuggets of gold amongst the BS. What are the odds of a good hotfix idea being fairly presented and debated in this single thread..? As an infantry player my main counter to tanks is not to play Ambush... This - there have been pages and pages and entire threads that are full of structured, well presented and well argued information based on facts, videos and analysis... coming here a day or two before a change that has been crying out for about 4 months looks sloppy and unprofessional. If you dug through the threads in the feedback and general discussion section, there are reams of data on how to fix things, ranging from (but not limited to): webifiers, having hardeners prevent speed boosters or have them slow you down while they are active, removing the recall functionality while out of the redline, increasing ammo levels on AV weapons to match the levels on tanks/infantry, increase their damage/range, removing third person view from ground based vehicles, increasing blaster dispersion, depressing the red line around a burn zone to prevent long range rail sniping, increasing rail gun heat and firing time, increasing AV weapons, introducing more AV weapons, increasing the effectiveness of AV grenades, increasing visibility of HAV's on minimap, reducing ammo levels of blaster magazines, etc, etc. There are all suggestions, some good, some bad, but you have the data sets and analytics to be able to make the informed choices. I feel tanks vs tanks are almost in the right place, but AV vs HAV's is completely skewed (and with bugged forge guns, nigh on useless right now).
Buzzwords Deadly Blue Dots 506	Posted - 2014.03.27 08:28:00 - [67] - Quote Darken-Soul wrote: Also the default for abandoned vehicles needs to be recall them. It is silly that they are programmed to explode. maybe, explode by default definitely reinforces the expendable LAV mentality. in their current iteration they're only good for running people over, and getting from point A to point B as quickly as possible. the problem with that is that if you're worried about getting to point B really fast, you're not gonna stop and recall your LAV when you get there. so you need to keep it as cheap as possible because you're likely to abandon it, potentially under fire. parsonally i'd like to see them DO something when they get there, give them a "triage" mode where they can't move but they get a huge damage reduction and can provide some passive benefit even when the driver isn't on board. make it run it's scanner constantly, repair nearby friendlies at some slow rate, or even function as a mobile resupply. BUT that is anything BUT a quick fix i would imagine. at least an auto recall would allow you to justify fitting the damn things.
ChromeBreaker SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance 1671	Posted - 2014.03.27 08:34:00 - [68] - Quote Increase Hardener cooldown. Decrease railgun turret turn speed. Remove railgun scoped fire (major reduction to zoom). Reduce ADS price. Increase Militia HAV price. The answer is "ForgeGun"... doesnt matter what the question is...
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2537	Posted - 2014.03.27 09:01:00 - [69] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: KenKaniff69 wrote: Why not buff AV and leave hardeners alone? Hardeners are the only way to survive against mod'd rails If you take away their effectiveness, vehicle combat will consist of two shot engagements that require no tactility or skill. Yeah nerfing tanks just messes up with the tank v tank balance...it's actually at a good place right now. Okay, thanks for the feedback guys. A couple questions then (and I'll relay this to the team): - How would you suggest going improving the tank situation? Increasing the viability of AV? - How would you go about fixing Railguns, if not range reduction? I believe damage fall-off is not an option for a server-side hotfix. Give hardeners a penalty of some sort that stacks for more than 1 hardener. Stop all regen (or at least reduce it) whilst hardened and having a hardener even fitted reduces your active and passive regen in the hardened area by some percentage. You'll still be able to survive but you're going to have to be well out of the dangerzone by the time your hardener is down. Stacking penalty could be to shorten time hardened and lengthen cooldown time massively. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Mobius Wyvern Ahrendee Mercenaries Dirt Nap Squad. 4936	Posted - 2014.03.27 11:49:00 - [70] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: KenKaniff69 wrote: Why not buff AV and leave hardeners alone? Hardeners are the only way to survive against mod'd rails If you take away their effectiveness, vehicle combat will consist of two shot engagements that require no tactility or skill. Yeah nerfing tanks just messes up with the tank v tank balance...it's actually at a good place right now. Okay, thanks for the feedback guys. A couple questions then (and I'll relay this to the team): - How would you suggest going improving the tank situation? Increasing the viability of AV? - How would you go about fixing Railguns, if not range reduction? I believe damage fall-off is not an option for a server-side hotfix. As annoying as Railguns may be, without massive alpha damage they wouldn't be any good, and they're built to be used at long range. If you're going to reduce the range, it should only be enough that it hinders their ability to strike out of Redlines, and their dps could use a reduction. You can't have both massive damage AND great rate-of-fire. That's what made the Rail Rifle so overpowered. Also, a Swarm fix is a must. As an Assault Dropship pilot, having six people all firing Swarms at me and not even doing enough damage to stop my shield regen just makes me feel dirty. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector

Terra Thesis HDYLTA Defiant Legacy 443	Posted - 2014.03.27 12:06:00 - [71] - Quote i liked 1.6 HAVs because they were vulnerable and expensive if played solo, but could dominate a battlefield as the keystone of a mixed force. 1.6 HAVs were extremely vulnerable to AV, but this could be countered with a dedicated infantry squad that protected the HAV from AV threats. together, this mixed force was extremely powerful and fun and required close teamwork between the squad members. fighting against this kind of ubersquad was also fun. the only answer to such an intricate network of teamplay would be team strategies of our own. we would have to pick apart the defensive infantry screen so that our AV could get shots in. it was extremely difficult to take down the best HAV squads, but when we succeeded it felt like a real achievement. a 1.6 HAV wandering around unsupported would quickly fall to AV. (AV, in turn, got shredded by assault troops, which in turn lose to HAVs). today, HAVs squads do exist - as in, a squad of all HAVs. HAVs are strictly better than all infantry now. the best response to a HAV is just another HAV. there's no need for any intricate teamplay anymore to either field, or respond to a HAV. sure, tank v tank right now is pretty fun, but it's not as good as having the whole package. HDYLTA - Freedom Delivered
Terra Thesis HDYLTA Defiant Legacy 443	Posted - 2014.03.27 12:16:00 - [72] - Quote as for quick fixes for rails, bring in the range. compensate with something else if necessary. abandon sniping mechanics, they are a dead end for fun gameplay. HDYLTA - Freedom Delivered
kayn TARON KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 55	Posted - 2014.03.27 12:25:00 - [73] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: KenKaniff69 wrote: Why not buff AV and leave hardeners alone? Hardeners are the only way to survive against mod'd rails If you take away their effectiveness, vehicle combat will consist of two shot engagements that require no tactility or skill. Yeah nerfing tanks just messes up with the tank v tank balance...it's actually at a good place right now. Okay, thanks for the feedback guys. A couple questions then (and I'll relay this to the team): - How would you suggest going improving the tank situation? Increasing the viability of AV? - How would you go about fixing Railguns, if not range reduction? I believe damage fall-off is not an option for a server-side hotfix. Two well thought out suggestions by a Dedicated Tanker, and Programmer. Things Covered in this post are potential solutions to the following: Tank Spam, and a cost change Rail Tanks and balance Making AV viable again To Reduce Tank Spam: 1) Increase cost of hull of tanks by a factor of X where X = (anywhere from 1.5-3X based on numbers I see) This would still allow them to bring them out while at the same time reduce the spam. Tankers don't fear -- At the same time HAV has no purpose to take beyond 1, so add in an additional skill that requires say HAV 5 that will reduce the cost of tanks and dropships by a factor of Y, where Y = X. This way it wouldn't hurt the dedicated tankers while being a slight nerf to the 0 sp non tankers without stopping their effectiveness. Continued Balance of Milita VS Proto Tank Effectiveness 2) Just a few points before the balance suggestion: Blasters close combat against Infantry. Missiles High Alpha and king of CQC, while Rail sits back and fires from a distance. 2a) Reduce firing time between shots for rail tanks 2b) Reduce Shots in clip of a rail tank, and possibly a "small" increase to reload time to keep them from being the king of ranged and CQC. 2c) Recalculate Damage Mods on Tanks. This would solve if done properly the issue with 2X dmg mod Sica's 2 or 3 shotting proto tanks while still keeping them effective. It also would solve some of the rail tank CQC vs other tanks issues as without damage mods on I believe Rail tanks to be perfectly balanced currently. (Or just remove them but that would hurt missile tankers when attacking a shield tank. If this option is done be very cautious as to how it will affect the blaster and missile tankers. Let me reiterate the importance of 2c again as that is the most likely long term fix when combined with 2a and 2b that could be included from a server side fix. Making AV Viable Against Tanks 1) Increase AV nades back to 3, and increase damage by 1/2 of the nerf that hit them in I believe it was 1.6. You nearly halfed the damage so try a 20% increase to damage and go from there. (based on effectiveness of AV nades prior to 1.7 1a) On a side note for the most part unless they are on a hive just chucking AV nades at me I usually just ignore people who have AV nades unless it's 3 or more people. This screams that a fix is needed. 2) Put swarms back to old 1.6 damage levels while leaving the lock range where it is currently. 3) FG's well they are already very effective against tanks and needed a small nerf as a decked out FG could domolish a tanker without much effort. (Think proto with Prof 5) They still do by the way. With the decrease to damage mods it helped in this area making them about where they should be given current balance vs vehicles. Dust is marketed as an FPS/MMO. Can you name me one MMO that does not have a functional online friends list or PVE? lol
sebastian the huds Legions of Infinite Dominion Zero-Day 61	Posted - 2014.03.27 12:35:00 - [74] - Quote Buzzwords wrote: Darken-Soul wrote: Also the default for abandoned vehicles needs to be recall them. It is silly that they are programmed to explode. maybe, explode by default definitely reinforces the expendable LAV mentality. in their current iteration they're only good for running people over, and getting from point A to point B as quickly as possible. the problem with that is that if you're worried about getting to point B really fast, you're not gonna stop and recall your LAV when you get there. so you need to keep it as cheap as possible because you're likely to abandon it, potentially under fire. parsonally i'd like to see them DO something when they get there, give them a "triage" mode where they can't move but they get a huge damage reduction and can provide some passive benefit even when the driver isn't on board. make it run its scanner constantly, repair nearby friendlies at some slow rate, or even function as a mobile resupply. although i would imagine that is anything BUT a quick fix. at least an auto recall would allow you to justify fitting the damn things. I'm pretty sure we had those before, OH YEAH they were called logi lavs and were broken and abused. all they had to do was make them slower but NOOOOOOO, let's just remove them and the good lav mechanics. If you only see from your point of view, you are doing it wrong.
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz Dirt Nap Squad. 678	Posted - 2014.03.27 12:42:00 - [75] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: Yes. I don't know the exact hotfix that's planned yet (they're working on it at the moment) but we'll post an update when we know. Just hardeners??? Are you kidding me? GREAT, so now my gunnlogi is going back to being the underdog and the maddie the go to tank. The only way for a shield tank to often survive is through those resistances. The problem isn't the strength of those hardeners but the length of which they last. A shield tank is already rather weak. Is adding a stacking penalty actually that bad an idea for hardeners? Given I don't know what this hotfix entails so I may be jumping the gun, but need I point to past experiences with your famed "fixes". And is this AV imbalance really as serious as you think?? Just yesterday I destroyed quite a few tanks with my proto forgegun (whenever the ******* thing decided to fire that is!). My prox mines still wreck tanks, enough re's do the trick, ect. But what about swarmers, the most popular AV weapon of choice, as it is the easiest to get into. Those are the underdogs that need addressed. A swarmer does no damage to a shield tank with hardeners (won't change with a nerf to hardener resistance). I'm not cool with this, at the very least they should stop shield regen to make them more viable on the field, forcing a shield tanker to reconsider it's course. A swarmer does do damage to armor tanks, but those god reps can rep right through them. And if a maddie is really hurting, they just need to pull out for but a few seconds and charge back in FULL STRENGTH. Where are these waves of opportunity you spoke of, and how does addressing "hardeners" address both types of tanks? Cripple one, while hardly touching the other. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Ld Collins Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 124	Posted - 2014.03.27 13:02:00 - [76] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: KenKaniff69 wrote: Why not buff AV and leave hardeners alone? Hardeners are the only way to survive against mod'd rails If you take away their effectiveness, vehicle combat will consist of two shot engagements that require no tactility or skill. Yeah nerfing tanks just messes up with the tank v tank balance...it's actually at a good place right now. Okay, thanks for the feedback guys. A couple questions then (and I'll relay this to the team): - How would you suggest going improving the tank situation? Increasing the viability of AV? - How would you go about fixing Railguns, if not range reduction? I believe damage fall-off is not an option for a server-side hotfix. How about you lower the clip size of large railguns to 6 and decrease the firerate. Then only allow 1 type of hardener and 1 type of damage mod. No more triple hardeners no more triple damage mods.
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 1889	Posted - 2014.03.27 13:56:00 - [77] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: KenKaniff69 wrote: Why not buff AV and leave hardeners alone? Hardeners are the only way to survive against mod'd rails If you take away their effectiveness, vehicle combat will consist of two shot engagements that require no tactility or skill. Yeah nerfing tanks just messes up with the tank v tank balance...it's actually at a good place right now. Okay, thanks for the feedback guys. A couple questions then (and I'll relay this to the team): - How would you suggest going improving the tank situation? Increasing the viability of AV? - How would you go about fixing Railguns, if not range reduction? I believe damage fall-off is not an option for a server-side hotfix. Hi Saberwing, interesting question indeed. To address your specific questions: - How would you suggest going improving the tank situation? Increasing the viability of AV? Judge taught us the issues involved with changing the damage model and the complications that arise when comparing across various vehicle systems. Imo the best thing to do at this point is trust your(CCP's) WOO(waves-of-opportunity) model. The two primary variables in that model are vehicle mobility and the hardener active/cooldown ratio. These are the variables to adjust. Adjusting other factors would actully be working against your model and most likely have complicated ramifications. Mobility variable: Hotfixable would prolly be tank turn rate, acceleration, top speed. I would temporarily nerf these for tanks until you can get a web grenade or equivalent into the game. Hardener active/cooldown variable: Here the ideal adjustment is hopefully a hotfixable one: For stacked hardeners, keep the active time the same but increase the cooldown time. Works for dropships, tanks and LAVs. Allows tanks to still play an important role but gives AV infantry a chance to do their jobs and push back tanks. - How would you go about fixing Railguns, if not range reduction? I believe damage fall-off is not an option for a server-side hotfix I wouldn't fix them because i don't think they're broken. It's the redline and the warpoint/passive skillpoint model that i'd look at as the ultimate 'cause' of redline rails. For a hotfix i would remove warpoints/skillpoints from the redline completely for 1.8. For everybody, infantry and vehicles. In and of itself it's a worthwhile experiment, but it will have a big enough effect on redline rails to make tham not an issue anymore. Imo it is well worth running the experiment to see the overall effect on gameplay. With Gallente scouts and cloaks there's really no reason for a team to be redlined anymore. Here's an agrument from another thread about 'soft' changes to vehicles that would have a positive impact on the vehicle/AV question. Some or all of this is not hotfixable but this is definitely the way i would prefer to proced before touching vehicles or infantry. Copypasta follows: Since CCP is looking at a hotfix for the Tank/AV situation, it's time for all of us to be very careful about what we're proposing. I want to see things happen before any kind of AV buff(the one exception to this is CCP needs to think about what Judge demonstrated re: swarms, damage threshold and shield recharge). 1) Recall mechanic(proposed: no recall if modules active or in cooldown, or if taking fire) 2) Warpoint/skillpoint mechanic(proposed: bulk of your team close to redline, redliners get points, otherwise no) 3) Entry/Exit animation(proposed: small window of vulnerability. This is devhour hungry, so do later) 4) Give infantry a mechanism to slow down tanks temporarily(proposed: web grenade) 5a) Introduce a hardener stacking penaly that increases subsequent cooldown -and/or- 5b) Give infantry a mechanism to partially debuff hardeners. We've gone past the point of being able to balance on damage. The list above introduces mechanics that balance tanks/AV, introduce layers of gameplay, and decouple tank/AV balancing from the existing damage model, allowing our developers freedom to tweak in the future without unbalancing other systems(e.g. tank/dropship/LAV balance). I support SP rollover.
Zirzo Valcyn Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 324	Posted - 2014.03.27 15:47:00 - [78] - Quote Tectonic Fusion wrote: SPESHULz wrote: nerf hardeners ok remove damage mods then No. Nerf damage mods the same way MY DAMAGE MODS WERE NERFED!!! the shield extenders need a nerf. nerf the shield extenders. u can ban the troll out of the forums but u can't ban the forums out of the troll. forum warrior .189
Skihids Bullet Cluster 3171	Posted - 2014.03.27 16:55:00 - [79] - Quote There's the quick fix, and then there is the long term balance problem. Yes quick fix, neuter redline rails with range reduction, spool time, etc. but that's very short term. For real balance you need to step way back and consider the mission of each asset first. You balance around the mission. What is it, and what is it for? Does it even have a purpose in the game as it exists? For example: Tank What is it: This is a hardened asset immune to light infantry weapons. Operated by one player, it has significantly greater defense, damage, and mobility than a dropsuit. What it's for: To break through heavy defenses. It can take a short term beating that infantry cannot. Strengths to support the mission: Hardeners, high eHP, powerful main guns Disadvantages: Requires infantry support to suppress AV which will take it own in any concentration. Places that mission exists: Nowhere. There is no scenerio in the game that can't be handled by a squad of infantry. There are no choke points to break through, there are no walls to breach, there are no towers to topple. The result is we have a solution looking for a problem. Tanks wander the field taking pot shots at individual infantry because there is no need for them in their mission. Their default mission becomes indiscriminate slaughter. Rolling around they no longer have the disadvantage of needing infantry support because they don't have to hunker down and attack a hardened defense for a significant period of time. If you lose track of the original mission you start balancing around the default mission, and that is impossible without altering what the asset is in the first place. Change the mission and you are forced to change the asset. If you balance tanks around the mission of infantry combat you need to give them the same strengths and disadvantages as dropsuits. You need to make them just as vulnerable as dropsuits. That means a 1v1 balance. They must be soloable. The tank ceases being a tank as we know it. The overarching problem is that you are adding assets with no mission to match. Dropships are another clear example. What are they for? Troop transport. Does that need exist? No. The maps are too small for them to be of any use. So their default mission becomes infantry slaughter. Now you start balancing around that mission and they change. When they might have been high eHP low damage to survive a hot drop zone, they are now weak enough to be easily driven off. So they are no longer able to perform their original mission should that ever come to be needed. You are just tossing in more stuff without thought. Before CCP Blam left he was creating a dropship bomber. Did he have any notion what it was for in the larger aspect of the game, or was he simply thinking it would be a great way to slaughter infantry? TL/DR Start with the real mission, then balance around that. Don't get distracted by the default mission and balance for that.
I-Shayz-I I-----I 2742	Posted - 2014.03.27 17:41:00 - [80] - Quote Plain and simple. Hardeners should make you invincible, but only for a limited time. Armor reps should be viable OUTSIDE of battle, not inside. This means used as a slow regen to recover, not to make yourself MORE invincible while hardened. The whole point is that if you're fighting an armor tank, every hit should slowly chip away at their health. It's silly that I constantly find armor tanks able to just regen faster than I can deal damage with my forge. Also, fix swarms so that they delay shields from recharging, because right now shields can still regenerate after every swarm hit instead of having to wait for the recharge delay. Links: 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! I make logistics videos!



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